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  1. #1
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    What became of digital AV receivers?

    I have a Panasonic SA-XR55 AV receiver that I've enjoyed daily for the past 5 years. It's compact, powerful, sounds great and produces no heat. After great initial reviews why have the panny's and other digital receivers gone the way of the dinosaur?

  2. #2
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Cool

    That depends, what do you mean by "digital" receiver? DIGITAL AMPS?
    Digital tuner? A LOT OF HT players started out in audio, and prefer their audio straight,
    no digital chaser.
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  3. #3
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    If you read my post it asks the question "what became of digital AV ( meaning audio/video ) receivers?"

  4. #4
    Oldest join date recoveryone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poultrygeist
    If you read my post it asks the question "what became of digital AV ( meaning audio/video ) receivers?"
    Your question is confusing, since about 98% of receivers are digital now days. If you can input coax, toslink, HDMI (which are all digital signal transfer option) your receiver is digital. If it can decode DD, PL, PLIIx, DTS, and so on its digital. if it can convert composite, S-video, component and output HDMI its digital. So what type of AVR are you referring to. What you may be asking what happen to the big DIGITAL labling in the passed. Its the standard today so there is no need to lable it any more. Just like Fuel injection in cars, its the norm by todays standards so no need to bring it up as an added feature or upgrade.
    HT
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    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    Poultrygeist is referring to 'digital' amps in AV receivers, similar I believe to Class D amps, but different if im not mistaken. I seem to remember that these digital amps dont need D to A conversion of the signal before it reaches the amps.
    Sony's S-master amps are digital (again if i am not mistaken) and so were some of Panasonic's AV receiver amps such as the one Poultrygeist mentionned.

  6. #6
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    My Panasonic SA-XR55 AV receiver is class D and has the TI chip ( digital amplification ). The major difference with amplifiers of other types ( A, B, AB, etc ) is that class D is digital while the others are analog. My class D is skinny compared to the great majority of AV receivers and light as a feather yet it makes gobs of power. I also have a JVC RX-D20 class D AV receiver and guess what they don't make these anymore either. These two fly weight receivers are nothing like the gargantuan AV receivers that are available today yet that provide equal or better performance IMO and don't require a fan as they run so cool. You can bi-amp with the Panny in two channel which is not that common with other AV receivers.

    So I'll put this question another way. What became of the excellent but low priced class D AV receivers made by companies such as Panasonic and JVC?

  7. #7
    Oldest join date recoveryone's Avatar
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    Thank you for clearing this up, asking what happen to Class D amps what have made a big difference.
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  8. #8
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poultrygeist
    My Panasonic SA-XR55 AV receiver is class D and has the TI chip ( digital amplification ). The major difference with amplifiers of other types ( A, B, AB, etc ) is that class D is digital while the others are analog. My class D is skinny compared to the great majority of AV receivers and light as a feather yet it makes gobs of power. I also have a JVC RX-D20 class D AV receiver and guess what they don't make these anymore either. These two fly weight receivers are nothing like the gargantuan AV receivers that are available today yet that provide equal or better performance IMO and don't require a fan as they run so cool. You can bi-amp with the Panny in two channel which is not that common with other AV receivers.

    So I'll put this question another way. What became of the excellent but low priced class D AV receivers made by companies such as Panasonic and JVC?
    CHECK out any high priced HTIB, OR just about any sub.
    Digital amps do their amplication in the digital domain, and some don't like the idea of their analog signal being toyed with. AND THE GREAT UNWASHED DON'T CARE AS LONG AS ITS CHEAP.
    Digital amps are a great innovation, but will probably not be used much in audiophile gear.
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  9. #9
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    pixie,

    You probably don't remember the stir the XR55 created when it was introduced. I can assure you it's no HTIB receiver. The reviewer linked below on the AVS forum preferred it with his B&W 802s.

    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=600778

  10. #10
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poultrygeist
    pixie,

    You probably don't remember the stir the XR55 created when it was introduced. I can assure you it's no HTIB receiver. The reviewer linked below on the AVS forum preferred it with his B&W 802s.

    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=600778
    Thanks, but I WOULD PREFER SOMETHING A LITTLE more "professional".
    A guy that slams Panny straight outta the gate has credibility problems with me from
    the git go.
    LG 42", integra 6.9, B&W 602s2, CC6 center, dm305rears, b&w
    sub asw2500
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    Samsung SACD/DVDA player
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    "Digital amps are a great innovation but, will probably not be used much in audiophile gear"

    Check out the Bel Canto S-300i which qualifies as audiophile gear.


    http://singaporehifi.blogspot.com/20...amplifier.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    Thanks, but I WOULD PREFER SOMETHING A LITTLE more "professional".
    A guy that slams Panny straight outta the gate has credibility problems with me from
    the git go.
    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    Cheap stuff on sale = really cheap stuff.
    I know I have ragged Emotiva for their cheapness , and some questionable
    design decisions
    You would prefer something a little more professional but actually buy really cheap, questionably designed gear.

    Man do you talk out of both sides of your @ss.

  13. #13
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi
    You would prefer something a little more professional but actually buy really cheap, questionably designed gear.

    Man do you talk out of both sides of your @ss.
    I BUY WHAT I can afford. My Emotiva was 250 bucks, and a godsend to a poor starving
    audfiophile such as my self. Considering my finances I probably shouldn't have bought it,
    but don't regret it. You do what you can.
    LG 42", integra 6.9, B&W 602s2, CC6 center, dm305rears, b&w
    sub asw2500
    Panny DVDA player
    sharp Aquos BLU player
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    Samsung SACD/DVDA player
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  14. #14
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poultrygeist
    "Digital amps are a great innovation but, will probably not be used much in audiophile gear"

    Check out the Bel Canto S-300i which qualifies as audiophile gear.


    http://singaporehifi.blogspot.com/20...amplifier.html
    And you think regressive audiophiles will give up their antique tube gear that was obsolete
    in 1945, and go with a amp that (gasp!) turns their precious music into ones and zeros?
    Most of them would buy an amp that runs on steam if they could.
    LG 42", integra 6.9, B&W 602s2, CC6 center, dm305rears, b&w
    sub asw2500
    Panny DVDA player
    sharp Aquos BLU player
    pronto remote, technics antique direct drive TT
    Samsung SACD/DVDA player
    emotiva upa-2 two channel amp

  15. #15
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    Class D Quality

    For me it almost sounds too good to be true when they are telling me that a near 100% efficient amp is going to sound the same or similar to a class A/B amp. I was reading this info here.

    http://www.maxim-ic.com/app-notes/index.mvp/id/3977

    I have 2 receivers that sound drastically different and I'm guessing they are using different class amps. The power output ratings are similar. The amp with much higher power consumption is in the Onkyo 606 and the lower power consumption amp is in the Yamaha 665. Now people are noticing that the new lighter amps Yamaha is using are not that great sounding and lack punch. I bought the Yammy for use in a bedroom where electrical current is limited to one line where while using a powerful PC you won't start a fire. If i had bought it for a large room I might have returned it although I got it on clearance for a huge discount.

    I just wanted to mention my experience and the only real judge is your ears but I'm not convinced until I hear/see a class D do the job as good as traditionally higher quality gear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    I BUY WHAT I can afford. My Emotiva was 250 bucks, and a godsend to a poor starving
    audfiophile such as my self. Considering my finances I probably shouldn't have bought it,
    but don't regret it. You do what you can.
    I understand that totally. I do the same. I would never have the gear I have if I didn't get it cheap.

    But, you also could have purchased a used killer amp for the same money.

    Again, you didn't read my post about the Rotel properly. First of all, at it's original $800 price, it was in no way cheap gear. I also said that although it sounded pretty good, it did not sound as good as the Hafler, Stratos, or Counterpoint.

    I plan to use it to drive family room and outdoor speakers as well as have a tuner and headphone capabilities in my main system.

    The only time I waste and can never get back, is when I respond to your posts, but like others said....it's sometimes the most fun that can be had here.

  17. #17
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    And you think regressive audiophiles will give up their antique tube gear that was obsolete
    in 1945, and go with a amp that (gasp!) turns their precious music into ones and zeros?
    Ever heard of measuring square wave response? It is a good measure of linearity. Here are 10 kHz square waves from a tube amp, an AB solid state amp and a switching amp. Can you tell any difference?






    rw

  18. #18
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Ever heard of measuring square wave response? It is a good measure of linearity. Here are 10 kHz square waves from a tube amp, an AB solid state amp and a switching amp. Can you tell any difference?





    rw
    Of what provinence are these measurements? Which amps? When where they made (the amps and the measurements)?

    All switching amps require filtering of high frequences at some point in the spectrum in order to get rid of the modulation frequency; this limits square wave performance but not necessarily the audible sound.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Of what provinence are these measurements? Which amps? When where they made (the amps and the measurements)?
    1. Stereophile
    2. Irrelevant, but easy to find
    3. All in past four years. Don't have the foggiest clue where Atkinson makes his tests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    All switching amps require filtering of high frequences at some point in the spectrum in order to get rid of the modulation frequency; this limits square wave performance but not necessarily the audible sound.
    Actually, what you are seeing is the residual high frequency noise or fuzz that is not filtered.

    rw

  20. #20
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    ...
    1. Stereophile
    2. Irrelevant, but easy to find
    3. All in past four years. Don't have the foggiest clue where Atkinson makes his tests.

    Actually, what you are seeing is the residual high frequency noise or fuzz that is not filtered.

    rw
    Not irrelevant, but in any case square waves reflect a near infinite frequency spectrum and most edge anomalies are well beyond the audible range. Square wave performance is no longer esteemed to the degree it was a couple of decades ago as an indicator of sound quality. It obviously doesn't do justice to class D amps.

    Bottom line is that many class D amps sound great. Many have made Stereophile's 'A' list, (so I guess JA isn't totally against them). I have owned three class D amps. One was merely good, the Panasonic XR25 receiver -- an example of the OP's question re. "digital" receivers. The other were two excellent, Bel Canto eVo2i and Class D Audio SDS-258. The last is my current amp: cost me <$500, a huge value.

  21. #21
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Not irrelevant, but in any case square waves reflect a near infinite frequency spectrum and most edge anomalies are well beyond the audible range.
    "Edge anomalies"? How about gross distortions as with the $6000 Bel Canto? I've heard many Class D designs and find they are not my cup of tea. They sound great at first, but extended listening reveals their limitations. We'll just have to disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    The last is my current amp: cost me <$500, a huge value.
    They work super as subwoofer amps.

    rw

  22. #22
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    "Edge anomalies"? How about gross distortions as with the $6000 Bel Canto? I've heard many Class D designs and find they are not my cup of tea. They sound great at first, but extended listening reveals their limitations. We'll just have to disagree.


    They work super as subwoofer amps.

    rw
    We can certainly disagree about class D. There's the matter of taste and, like other technologies, there are good and bad examples. However I have listened to a few class D for extended periods and haven't heard "limitations" I can ascribe to class D. Maybe you coulld spare us a moment to describe the "limitations" you hear?

    "Gross distortions" is gross hyperbole, IMO. It's supercilious to dismiss class D as worthy only to power subwoofers.
    Last edited by Feanor; 09-29-2010 at 08:30 AM.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Maybe you coulld spare us a moment to describe the "limitations" you hear?
    Flatness of field. Lack of air and natural ease at top.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    "Gross distortions" is gross hyperbole...
    You may characterize the overtly rounded shape of the square wave however you please.

    rw

  24. #24
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Flatness of field. Lack of air and natural ease at top.
    ...

    rw
    You have me at a disadvantage, sir. I haven't had any $10k+ amps in my system. I can only say that the Bel Canto and CDA SDS-258 are those most transparent and "airy" amps I've owned, (and the latter, at <$500, is better if anything).

  25. #25
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    I can only say that the Bel Canto and CDA SDS-258 are those most transparent and "airy" amps I've owned, (and the latter, at <$500, is better if anything).
    For what it's worth, I find them similar to the "Halcro" sound - somewhat bleached and sterile. Some reviewers, however, seem to go for that character. To each his own.

    rw

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