SPL readings On My Unscientific DB SetUp for Denons

[Quagmire]

I earlier posted that when I used the SPL meter on my Denon receiver the DB levels using their 75 db test tones produced terrible sound- my DB's from the SPL reading (SPL aimed at the ceiling from my listening position, bass/treble at 0, all extraneous noise from my apartment turned off) were -7, -7, -8 for front speakers, -6 & -9 for rears & -9 for sub. Anyway, when I used the trial and error setting of 0 DB's for all speakers except the sub which is +2, the CD sound for me is fantastic. Shokhead suggested I read what my SPL levels are for these settings. When I then took the SPL settings for "0" on all speakers, +2 for sub I got the following: Front Left 81, Front Center 82, Front Right 83, Rear Right 81, Rear Left 83, Sub 84. What exactly do these numbers mean? Would you recommend tweaking these settings then- if so to what? Would you use the center setting as my foundation and therefore change the settings to +1 for Front Left, 0 Front Center, -1 Front Right, Rear Right +1, Rear Left -1 and Sub -2? Actually I just tried those settings out and they still didn't sound as good as 0 DB's for everything except +2 for sub.

Hershon,
I've just read over all of these posts and I'd like to chime in if you don't mind. I think where you may be going astray is that you are balancing your speakers so that they will be set correctly to play sources mixed for 5.1 reproduction, but then you are using a 2 channel source to audibly test the results. It doesn't matter that it is the "5 channel stereo" mode or "natural sound" or whatever else you want to call it. It is still a derrived 5 channel mix of a 2 channel source. What you need to be doing in order to test your speaker balancing results is listening to something mixed for 5.1 sound reproduction. Balance your system per SPL meter and then... and I know this is a novel idea... put on a DVD with a 5.1 soundtrack in DD or DTS! How does it sound? If it sounds good, which it should, then you have accomplished all that you were suppose to accomplish by this setup. These test disc or even the test generators on your receiver have NOTHING to do with setting up 5 channel stereo. For me, ALL such DSP mode have to be set by ear and they usually DO NOT match the settings made by SPL measurements for a 5.1 source. There is nothing wrong with using those settings as a base line to start with but chances are none of the DSP modes are going to sound at thier optimum when left at those settings. I assume that you realize you can set seperate levels for each of these DSP modes like 5 channel stereo, matrix, jazz club, etc... Unless things have changed with Denon, you are able to set individual levels for each of these modes. The only exception to doing this would be the Pro Logic modes as they are meant to produce a matrixed 5.1 surround sound which does require speakers balanced by SPL meter. Is this making any sense to you? I hope so. I think you are really confusing yourself by trying a test method which does not correspond to the original setup criteria. Setup the receiver as we have already described for your DVD and other 5.1 soundtracks, then... set the individual levels for the other DSP modes by ear to your taste. That's what I've been doing for years and it works perfectly well. I think it will work for you too.

Q

[hershon]

Thanks Quagmire but I'm a little confused & think you may be misunderstanding how Denon asks to set up its DB's. On Denon, they have a 6 seperate channel (all speakers plus sub) "graph" if you want to call it, that goes from -12 to +12 DB's which goes up by increments at 1. A person starts with everything set on the chart at 0 DB's. You are then suppose to use an SPL, set at Slow and "C" and one channel on the chart at a time keep increasing or decreasing the db's on the chart till the test tones emmitted on the chart (which go louder for every increment upwards etc. & downwards for every decrease)bring about an SPL reading of 75. You then move to the next channel etc. & do the same thing and so forth. When you are finally done, each channel goes to 75 on the SPL, you press enter and these become your new DB levels on the receiver. The volume put out by the test tones can not be varied by the receivers volume and as an added precaution I have bass/treble set at 0.

Are you trying to say that these levels are perfect when I watch a surround sound 5 channel DVD but if I then try to play a 2 channel CD, regardless of whether I listen to it
at 2 speaker sound, 2 speaker and a sub sound, 5 speaker and a sub natural sound, etc.,
the db's set by the above test will not be applicable and hence they are only applicable to
DVD's played at either dolby digital or DTS on 5-7 speakers & a sub?

Hershon,
I've just read over all of these posts and I'd like to chime in if you don't mind. I think where you may be going astray is that you are balancing your speakers so that they will be set correctly to play sources mixed for 5.1 reproduction, but then you are using a 2 channel source to audibly test the results. It doesn't matter that it is the "5 channel stereo" mode or "natural sound" or whatever else you want to call it. It is still a derrived 5 channel mix of a 2 channel source. What you need to be doing in order to test your speaker balancing results is listening to something mixed for 5.1 sound reproduction. Balance your system per SPL meter and then... and I know this is a novel idea... put on a DVD with a 5.1 soundtrack in DD or DTS! How does it sound? If it sounds good, which it should, then you have accomplished all that you were suppose to accomplish by this setup. These test disc or even the test generators on your receiver have NOTHING to do with setting up 5 channel stereo. For me, ALL such DSP mode have to be set by ear and they usually DO NOT match the settings made by SPL measurements for a 5.1 source. There is nothing wrong with using those settings as a base line to start with but chances are none of the DSP modes are going to sound at thier optimum when left at those settings. I assume that you realize you can set seperate levels for each of these DSP modes like 5 channel stereo, matrix, jazz club, etc... Unless things have changed with Denon, you are able to set individual levels for each of these modes. The only exception to doing this would be the Pro Logic modes as they are meant to produce a matrixed 5.1 surround sound which does require speakers balanced by SPL meter. Is this making any sense to you? I hope so. I think you are really confusing yourself by trying a test method which does not correspond to the original setup criteria. Setup the receiver as we have already described for your DVD and other 5.1 soundtracks, then... set the individual levels for the other DSP modes by ear to your taste. That's what I've been doing for years and it works perfectly well. I think it will work for you too.

Q

[Wireworm5]

I am not familiar with the Denon either. But on my Yamaha the speaker settings will be different for each soundfield. You have to save the parameter settings for each soundfield. If I calibrate my speakers for 6 channels stereo this will not be the optimal setting for 70mm Spectacle soundfield .Maybe the Denon has this feature as well with a different name?

[hershon]

I am not familiar with the Denon either. But on my Yamaha the speaker settings will be different for each soundfield. You have to save the parameter settings for each soundfield. If I calibrate my speakers for 6 channels stereo this will not be the optimal setting for 70mm Spectacle soundfield .Maybe the Denon has this feature as well with a different name?

As far as I know: 1. The settings are not for one particular sound field, 2. You can not save
different sound fields ot inputs, thus if you have to have a different dbs when watching TV & hearing TV sound as opposed to say hearing the CD, you will have to manually change the settings.

[Wireworm5]

As far as I know: 1. The settings are not for one particular sound field, 2. You can not save
different sound fields DBA, thus if you have to have a different DBA when watching TV & hearing TV sound as opposed to say hearing the CD, you will have to manually change the settings.

Those are inputs, soundfields are like Rock, Hall, movie surround, disco. Does your Denon have soundfields?

[kfalls]

I am familiar with Denon owning an AVR-3300 myself. There are several misconceptions here I will try to clear up as to why differnet level and formats may sound different.

First you stated your original settings as (L) -7, (C) -7, (R) -7, (RL) -6, (RR) -9 and sub -9. Just turning the volume control 7db will give you (L) 0, (C) 0, (R) 0, (RL) 1, (RR) -2 and sub -2 which is very close to what you say is giving you better sound (all levels at 0db with the sub @ +2). The Radio Shack analog meter requires +4db of compensation in the bass because it reads 4db low. Adding these corrections provide compensated levels of (L) 0, (C) 0, (R) 0, (RL) 1, (RR) -2 and sub 0 which is not that much different than original except you now have the bass corrected.

The differences in levels and sound could also be associated with room boundaries and materials. A speaker setup in a corner will sound different than one in open air because walls will reinforce some frequencies more than others. Soft or hard surfaces surrounding the speaker will also affect the sound. Also, different receivers handle bass management differently. I know on my Denon the sub is not on in the "Direct" format, but is during the Stereo, 5-channel Stereo and other DSP formats. This may also account for some of your difference is sound.

The comments about testing using a two channel source with multi-channel formats is also valid. A two-channel source playing in a Dolby Pro Logic format will have derived center (L+R) and surround (L-R) channels. The surrounds will not be full range since DLP limits the range to 100Hz-7000Hz and the surrounds are mono not discrete. Dolby Digital has all full-range channels except for the ".1" sub channel and the surrounds are discrete.

Because of strange differences in sound I very seldom use the DSP formats, they either have too little clarity, too much echo, or too much bass. They were cool at first, but lost their attraction quickly. Hope this helps.

[hershon]

[QUOTE=kfalls]

First you stated your original settings as (L) -7, (C) -7, (R) -7, (RL) -6, (RR) -9 and sub -9. Just turning the volume control 7db will give you (L) 0, (C) 0, (R) 0, (RL) 1, (RR) -2 and sub -2 which is very close to what you say is giving you better sound (all levels at 0db with the sub @ +2).

Thanks but I don't quite understand what you're saying as the original settings you mentioned when using the Debnons test tones trying to have each channel match to 75 DBs set the speaker volume/DB level to the same DB as the test. IE left front -7 is set as -7. Where does you 0 come in and so fourth or alternatively how do you come up with your second set of numbers that resemble mine? Any information/clarification appreciated.

[shokhead]

It seems something as easy and basic as setting speakers has gotten out of control. Test tone,master volume at 0db,set each speaker to 75 or 80db,thats what most use and the sub a few db's more. Thats it,you basic speaker level setup.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

It seems something as easy and basic as setting speakers has gotten out of control. Test tone,master volume at 0db,set each speaker to 75 or 80db,thats what most use and the sub a few db's more. Thats it,you basic speaker level setup.

Thank you!!!!

[Quagmire]

Thanks Quagmire but I'm a little confused & think you may be misunderstanding how Denon asks to set up its DB's. On Denon, they have a 6 seperate channel (all speakers plus sub) "graph" if you want to call it, that goes from -12 to +12 DB's which goes up by increments at 1. A person starts with everything set on the chart at 0 DB's. You are then suppose to use an SPL, set at Slow and "C" and one channel on the chart at a time keep increasing or decreasing the db's on the chart till the test tones emmitted on the chart (which go louder for every increment upwards etc. & downwards for every decrease)bring about an SPL reading of 75. You then move to the next channel etc. & do the same thing and so forth. When you are finally done, each channel goes to 75 on the SPL, you press enter and these become your new DB levels on the receiver. The volume put out by the test tones can not be varied by the receivers volume and as an added precaution I have bass/treble set at 0.

Are you trying to say that these levels are perfect when I watch a surround sound 5 channel DVD but if I then try to play a 2 channel CD, regardless of whether I listen to it
at 2 speaker sound, 2 speaker and a sub sound, 5 speaker and a sub natural sound, etc.,
the db's set by the above test will not be applicable and hence they are only applicable to
DVD's played at either dolby digital or DTS on 5-7 speakers & a sub?

I am familiar with how to go about calibrating and setting speaker levels on Denon equipment.

"Are you trying to say that these levels are perfect when I watch a surround sound 5 channel DVD but if I then try to play a 2 channel CD, regardless of whether I listen to it
at 2 speaker sound, 2 speaker and a sub sound, 5 speaker and a sub natural sound, etc.,
the db's set by the above test will not be applicable and hence they are only applicable to
DVD's played at either dolby digital or DTS on 5-7 speakers & a sub?"

Now you're getting it ol' boy! Yes this is what I'm saying. Balancing the speaker levels is for 5.1/6.1/7.1 playback from any discrete 5.1 or 6.1 encoded source; whether that be from DVD, HDTV, etc... it doesn't matter. It isn't for setting up these various DSP modes.

If you engage the receiver's test mode, the tone generator will circulate through the speakers one by one. When you are finished and you press the enter button it save these settings globally. But you can also set individual levels for each of these sound modes. There should be a direct input on your remote or on the receiver's face plate to allow this. So set up the global settings per SPL meter, then switch to whichever mode you want to adjust (such as 5 channel stereo) and adjust those levels by ear to taste. You should write all of these numbers down so that if something happens to reset them all to "zero", you can quickly and easily set them again. Try it.

Q

[hershon]

OK I can understand in theory that SPL controls are used to set DB levels when you're playing DVD's. No question, I understand Kabish. What I don't understand however, and this is totally irresponsible of all these manufacturers is, if playing CD's (lets limit this to CD's not DVD-A's) which most DVD users play I'd conservatively guess 5 CD'sfor every DVD played, that these settings have nothing whatsoever to do with Cd's whether you play them on 2 channel, 2 channel & sub, 5 channel, etc., then they're messing up the sound balances for these poor suspecting people. All that would be needed then for these University of Cambodia graduates who write manuals is the caveat these setting aply to DVDs only do not use for CDs. Obviously this has not been done. Whokle thing makes no sense.

I am familiar with how to go about calibrating and setting speaker levels on Denon equipment.

"Are you trying to say that these levels are perfect when I watch a surround sound 5 channel DVD but if I then try to play a 2 channel CD, regardless of whether I listen to it
at 2 speaker sound, 2 speaker and a sub sound, 5 speaker and a sub natural sound, etc.,
the db's set by the above test will not be applicable and hence they are only applicable to
DVD's played at either dolby digital or DTS on 5-7 speakers & a sub?"

Now you're getting it ol' boy! Yes this is what I'm saying. Balancing the speaker levels is for 5.1/6.1/7.1 playback from any discrete 5.1 or 6.1 encoded source; whether that be from DVD, HDTV, etc... it doesn't matter. It isn't for setting up these various DSP modes.

If you engage the receiver's test mode, the tone generator will circulate through the speakers one by one. When you are finished and you press the enter button it save these settings globally. But you can also set individual levels for each of these sound modes. There should be a direct input on your remote or on the receiver's face plate to allow this. So set up the global settings per SPL meter, then switch to whichever mode you want to adjust (such as 5 channel stereo) and adjust those levels by ear to taste. You should write all of these numbers down so that if something happens to reset them all to "zero", you can quickly and easily set them again. Try it.

Q

[shokhead]

When you set the speaker levels,it doesnt effect the recording on the cd so to speak. Its only making sure that each speaker is set to the same level so when you use the master volume,its not unbalanced. Your music is still going to have low passages and loud passages. In fact if the speakers are not set right,that would be all screwed up. Lets say you have your right speaker level 5db more then the rest,80 instead of 75. That speaker will stand out anyway because its going to be 5db louder and if that speaker happens to have a loud part of the music on the cd,its even way more out of balance. Ever wonder why there isnt a balance on these recievers? Because you are setting the speaker levels,kinda like having the balance in the middle like it shound be.

[Quagmire]

OK I can understand in theory that SPL controls are used to set DB levels when you're playing DVD's. No question, I understand Kabish. What I don't understand however, and this is totally irresponsible of all these manufacturers is, if playing CD's (lets limit this to CD's not DVD-A's) which most DVD users play I'd conservatively guess 5 CD'sfor every DVD played, that these settings have nothing whatsoever to do with Cd's whether you play them on 2 channel, 2 channel & sub, 5 channel, etc., then they're messing up the sound balances for these poor suspecting people. All that would be needed then for these University of Cambodia graduates who write manuals is the caveat these setting aply to DVDs only do not use for CDs. Obviously this has not been done. Whokle thing makes no sense.

That is because DD sources are mixed and encoded for 5.1 playback from the beginning. The sound engineers are able to control the sound precisely and have a good idea of what the sound reproduction in your home should be like IF... your system is setup properly. Engineers mixing for stereo music playback don't have these parameters in mind. The various DSP modes are simply an embellishment on the stereo presentation. The first scenario is a very controlled process set to certain standards; the second process (DSP) is very much to taste and not set to certain standards -- if you happen to like them, great. What you need to remember is that you purchased a "Home Theater" receiver and its primary function is to give you the best possible sound reproduction for movie soundtracks. As I've said already, calibrate your system so that it will sound right for your DD & DTS sources and then set the other modes up to your taste. You seem to have already identified some settings that you like for these modes; that they don't correspond to the needed calibration settings is really no big deal, so... what's the problem?

Q

[hershon]

You seem to have already identified some settings that you like for these modes; that they don't correspond to the needed calibration settings is really no big deal, so... what's the problem? Q[/QUOTE]

The problem is, that I'd guess 98% of the general public, would be of the understanding that DB controls should be set at the same levels for CDs, DVDs, TV, etc. and they're now going to, because they don't read this Forum-that'll show them, be hearing CD's for example wrong for the rest of their lives unless they have a mind of their own and say "what's up doc, this ain't right"! and adjust different inputs and/or DSP's seperately. I've just wasted 20 or so hours on a total excercise in futility. Again I'd have no problem if these Manuals would just say, use our test tones to set DVD sound, for other inputs and DSP's, do not use the DVD settings. But they don't do this!

[Quagmire]

"The problem is, that I'd get 98% of the general public, would be of the understanding that DB controls should be set at the same levels for CDs, DVDs, TV, etc. and they're now going to, because they don't read this Forum-that'll show them, be hearing CD's for example wrong for the rest of their lives unless they have a mind of their own and say "what's up doc, this ain't right"! and adjust different inputs and/or DSP's seperately."

CD's are a two channel format. If you want to hear them "correctly", listen to them in 2 channel stereo - done. If you like to listen to them with some enhancement like the various DSP modes available, set them to your liking. For instance, you may like the sound of a "Jazz Club" set to a small room with little reverberant sound; someone else may like it set to a large room with much reverberant sound -- who's right and who's wrong? This is soley a matter of preference.

Setting your system up for 5.1 playback is not just a matter of preference. There is a definite right and wrong way to go about it. Rather than bemoan that fact, move on. Set your system up for optimal DD/DTS playback and then set your DSP modes to your liking. Like I said, there is really only one way to listen to stereo sources "correctly" and that is "in stereo". If your preference is to listen to them in some other format, there is no right or wrong settings... only the ones that you prefer.

Q