SPL readings On My Unscientific DB SetUp for Denons

[N. Abstentia]

I'll tell you what's going on. You're thinking too much!

I have a setup method that is very radical and unheard of, but it works for me. It involves the SPL meter..any SPL meter will do. Now take your meter and throw it in the trashcan..okay we're ready. Now we pop in a good 5.1 DVD soundtrack and sit down and use...gulp..our EARS!

Yes, the best method is to set it where it sounds best to you, no matter what the SPL meter says. That can be very very misleading if you don't fully understand the meter, speaker distances, and room acoustics.

Also I would think that using a 2 channel CD on '5 channel natural' would probably be the worst thing to use to test sound quality and surround levels. How ironic that '5 channel natural' is the most UNnatural thing you could possibly have??!! You're taking a 2 channel CD and MAKING UP the 3 other channels. NO. NO! WHY?!??! My GOD!

So, what have we learned here?
1) Adjust it to where you like the sound. Who cares what some SPL meter says? Does it have ears? Will it be the one listening to the music?

2) If you want 5.1 channel CD's, get them encoded in 5.1 by getting them on SACD or DVD-A. Don't expect some fake DSP mode to sound good.

3) To test your 5.1 sound, USE A 5.1 SOURCE!

Good luck

[hershon]

I totally absolutely uneqivocally disagree with you. Hey, if everything was out on DVD-A at affordable prices I'd replace my normal CD's if I can find the money. I don't see anything unnatural hearing my 2 channel CD on 5.1 channels as long as the music is not being electronically altered (that's called pro logic). You prefer 2 channel sound fine, I don't, as far as I'm concerned there is no right and wrong. But being that I want to listen to 2 channel CD's on 5 channels all naturally, you'd think I therefore would want to listen to this the best way I can. You prefer 2 channel sound therefore it makes no sense to adjust your system for 5 channel natural sound (this is excluding DVD-A's) and vice versa for me!

[N. Abstentia]

Well theres no real difference between Pro Logic and what you're doing. You're taking a 2 channel source and asking a DSP chip to 'make something up' to send to the other 3 channels. Those channels did not exist, they were electronically created..just like Pro Logic.

And don't get me wrong, that's fine if you like it but calling it 'natural sound' is like saying Pamela Anderson has 'natural boobs'. It's about as fake as you can get

[Wireworm5]

Hershon it doesn't matter what db level you are setting your speakers at. What does matter is that all your speakers are at the same db level at your listening postion. If one speaker is louder than the other then that speaker masks the other speaker merely by drowning them out. Assuming that you have calibrated your settings correctly then I have to conclude that your ears haven't adjusted to the more accurate sound presentation. This may take a week or two to re-adust to how things are suppose to sound. Also maybe other settings need to be tweaked on your Denon like delay time to compensate for room size etc..
However like you I went with my ears for the sub setting, since at equal levels to the other speakers the bass sounded weak. But I have read that the sub is suppose to be 6dbs louder because of the way or ears perceive low frequencies.

[hershon]

One thing I will acknowledge that is not figured in the equation is, alot of us, including myself,
have some auditory problems to begin with- several years ago I had a major problem with my ears and had to have them tested and the results revealed (which had nothing to do with the problem at the time which since cured itself) that there was a noticable loss of hearing on one ear. Therefore maybe its possible that if I , or anyone elses hearing isn't naturally balanced to begin with, setting up DB's based on SPL tone testings may not necessarily represent the optimum settings for listening given that.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

One thing I will acknowledge that is not figured in the equation is, alot of us, including myself,
have some auditory problems to begin with- several years ago I had a major problem with my ears and had to have them tested and the results revealed (which had nothing to do with the problem at the time which since cured itself) that there was a noticable loss of hearing on one ear. Therefore maybe its possible that if I , or anyone elses hearing isn't naturally balanced to begin with, setting up DB's based on SPL tone testings may not necessarily represent the optimum settings for listening given that.

You know it depends on if you hearing loss was global, or frequency based. If you hearing loss was global, then only the speakers that shade that side of the head would be effected. If it was only frequency based, then you would only experience a inbalance when the frequencies effected are presented to the ear.

Whatever hearing problem that was in play, the system should still be balanced as a whole, and then adjusted to taste after that. Got to have a foundation to build a building right?

[hershon]

Pro Logic as far as I know takes a 2 channel signal and then electronically changes it into 5 different channels. "5 Channel All Natural Sound" takes a 2 channel signal, puts the same exact signal on the front left and rear left speakers, front right and rear right speakers and for the center channel combines the front left and front right. I don't see how this is really artificially changing the natural sound. I hate implants though!

Well theres no real difference between Pro Logic and what you're doing. You're taking a 2 channel source and asking a DSP chip to 'make something up' to send to the other 3 channels. Those channels did not exist, they were electronically created..just like Pro Logic.

And don't get me wrong, that's fine if you like it but calling it 'natural sound' is like saying Pamela Anderson has 'natural boobs'. It's about as fake as you can get

[N. Abstentia]

Pro Logic as far as I know takes a 2 channel signal and then electronically changes it into 5 different channels. "5 Channel All Natural Sound" takes a 2 channel signal, puts the same exact signal on the front left and rear left speakers, front right and rear right speakers and for the center channel combines the front left and front right. I don't see how this is really artificially changing the natural sound. I hate implants though!

So what's the difference? The source is 2 channel, the result is 6 channels. In between there is some digital magic that makes up the information that WAS NOT THERE to begin with.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, if you like it then that's great! But calling it 'natural' is just wrong. Saying it's not digitally altered is wrong.

[toenail]

Hershon- Are you trying to achieve good sound in A) Dolby Digital 5.1 B) Pro Logic (II or IIx) C) 5 channel stereo? It sounds like you're trying to get good sound from a 2 channel source reproduced in 5 channel stereo.

If you want multi channel music playback from a 2 channel source that loosly mimics DD 5.1 or DVD-A/SACD, just choose Pro Logic (II or IIx) Music setting on your receiver (assuming it has that option).This assumes output levels are where the manufacturer suggests for DD 5.1 set up, I believe 85db @ 0db reference.

If you want to entertain yourself or others while moving about the room, then try the 5 channel stereo, as that was what it was intended for. Don't expect that 5 channel stereo will sound anything like DD 5.1, DVD-A/SACD, Pro Logic (II or IIx) or any other configuration you can think of, it's not supposed to.

[hershon]

I should clarify that most of my posts to begin with are in reference to CD's not DVDs which I'm not that picky over. In the case of CD's, as opposed to DVD-A's, for my hearing, as Shokhead I think implied, "All Natural 5 channel & sub sound" fills up my room and ears much more so than say either 2 speaker or 2 speaker and a sub sound, as for me, personally, it gives the music more depth. Why it does so, I can not give a technical and/or scientific explanation for. When I used the SPL settings, albeit digital, against: 1. Denon test tones using a 75 db set up, 2. Denon test tones using an 80 db set up and finally Denon test tones using the DB for the center speaker as ground 0, the sound when listening to my 5 all natural channel mode, still sounded much better when listening to CD's when I set all of my 5 satellite speaker DB levels to 0 and my sub to +2. The difference in all these settings with my unscientific one is my unscientific one gave the music much more depth while the SPL settings seemed to reduce the "soundstage" to one spot. I'm willing to concede I might be able to get different DB results with a "DVD tester" which I'm hoping Paul PCI can do and will also try analogue & digital readings. As I truly am not a stubborn masochist, if the settings from one of these tests produces better 5 channel CD sound, I'll use those settings instead of my 0 db & +2 for my sub. As Far as I'm concerned, prologic, Matrix, etc., changes the sound & this mode doesn't (or if technically it does, it does so in a way I can accept it).

Hershon- Are you trying to achieve good sound in A) Dolby Digital 5.1 B) Pro Logic (II or IIx) C) 5 channel stereo? It sounds like you're trying to get good sound from a 2 channel source reproduced in 5 channel stereo.

If you want multi channel music playback from a 2 channel source that loosly mimics DD 5.1 or DVD-A/SACD, just choose Pro Logic (II or IIx) Music setting on your receiver (assuming it has that option).This assumes output levels are where the manufacturer suggests for DD 5.1 set up, I believe 85db @ 0db reference.

If you want to entertain yourself or others while moving about the room, then try the 5 channel stereo, as that was what it was intended for. Don't expect that 5 channel stereo will sound anything like DD 5.1, DVD-A/SACD, Pro Logic (II or IIx) or any other configuration you can think of, it's not supposed to.

[shokhead]

I'll tell you what's going on. You're thinking too much!

I have a setup method that is very radical and unheard of, but it works for me. It involves the SPL meter..any SPL meter will do. Now take your meter and throw it in the trashcan..okay we're ready. Now we pop in a good 5.1 DVD soundtrack and sit down and use...gulp..our EARS!

Yes, the best method is to set it where it sounds best to you, no matter what the SPL meter says. That can be very very misleading if you don't fully understand the meter, speaker distances, and room acoustics.

Also I would think that using a 2 channel CD on '5 channel natural' would probably be the worst thing to use to test sound quality and surround levels. How ironic that '5 channel natural' is the most UNnatural thing you could possibly have??!! You're taking a 2 channel CD and MAKING UP the 3 other channels. NO. NO! WHY?!??! My GOD!

So, what have we learned here?
1) Adjust it to where you like the sound. Who cares what some SPL meter says? Does it have ears? Will it be the one listening to the music?

2) If you want 5.1 channel CD's, get them encoded in 5.1 by getting them on SACD or DVD-A. Don't expect some fake DSP mode to sound good.

3) To test your 5.1 sound, USE A 5.1 SOURCE!

Good luck

Well then if you want to talk about natural sound then you better have super towers all around and no sub. Know what 2 channel stereo is,flat stereo. Whats the last concert you went to that had a stage with speakers on it 6-8 feet apart? There ya go. Everything we have is reproduced,remixed and remastered and stereo. Right,who cares what the spl meter says,i guess,oh most of use is wrong to use it and every rightup in a mag says to use it but i suppose the bottom line is,if it works for ya and it sounds good to you, thats it. Oh,every heard of DTS music disc's? 5.1 music. One more,you say do what sounds best but dont expect some dsp mode to sound good even if he likes it. Which is it? By the way,i'm a dsp mode hater but i do use 5 channel stereo,kinda fills the room up abit more.

[anamorphic96]

Dolby Pro Logic is only 4 channels. Left,Center,Right and surround. The surround channel is mono. It takes the left and right and any inofrmation that is both identical in both amplitude and phase is routed to the Center. Information encoded with a disteinct phase shift is routed to the surround channel.

Pro Logic II and IIx are variations on this and capable of matrixing out more channels.

[N. Abstentia]

Well then if you want to talk about natural sound then you better have super towers all around and no sub.

Yep, that's my preferred setup. My 2 channel system is Paradigm Active 40's with no sub. The Active's actually outperform most subs I've heard.


Know what 2 channel stereo is,flat stereo. Whats the last concert you went to that had a stage with speakers on it 6-8 feet apart?

When's the last time I've had to provide sound for 10,000 people in my living room?


Oh,every heard of DTS music disc's? 5.1 music.

Yes, I have about 20 of them.

One more,you say do what sounds best but dont expect some dsp mode to sound good even if he likes it. Which is it? By the way,i'm a dsp mode hater but i do use 5 channel stereo,kinda fills the room up abit more.

There's a huge difference in descrete multi channel audio and some fake DSP that 'fills up' the missing information.

Again, I'll use our friend Pamela as an example. If you like that, fine. I prefer them natural and not plastic. DSP is plastic. Fake. False.

[shokhead]

There's a huge difference in descrete multi channel audio and some fake DSP that 'fills up' the missing information.

Again, I'll use our friend Pamela as an example. If you like that, fine. I prefer them natural and not plastic. DSP is plastic. Fake. False.

No kidding. I dont think i was trying to say anything about 5 ch stereo being the same as multi-channel audio,was i? 5 channel stereo is ok if you like it,i do. I like DTS misic disc's better and some DVD-A and SACD are even better. The whole HT thing is reproduced,come on. The only natural thing is at the concert or recording studio. Just a question,how many of you only have 2 speakers in your car? Thats what i thought.

[N. Abstentia]

No kidding. I dont think i was trying to say anything about 5 ch stereo being the same as multi-channel audio,was i? 5 channel stereo is ok if you like it,i do. I like DTS misic disc's better and some DVD-A and SACD are even better. The whole HT thing is reproduced,come on. The only natural thing is at the concert or recording studio. Just a question,how many of you only have 2 speakers in your car? Thats what i thought.

Well not to nitpick here (yeah right!) but if you consider car speakers like you would home speakers then I just have two speakers in my car...left & right. Of course there is a sub, but that's only because the 5" speakers in the doors produce no bass. It's there, it's just not in the same location.

So really now that you mention it, my car system is just like my home system! Only difference is that the drivers in my home system are all in the same box. But if you want to talk individual drivers, my home 2 channel system has SIX drivers while my car only has FIVE drivers..and this is my former IASCA competition setup

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I'll tell you what's going on. You're thinking too much!

Word on that.

I have a setup method that is very radical and unheard of, but it works for me. It involves the SPL meter..any SPL meter will do. Now take your meter and throw it in the trashcan..okay we're ready. Now we pop in a good 5.1 DVD soundtrack and sit down and use...gulp..our EARS!

Actually it is heard of, but it is plain wrong. Our ears can tell us what sound good or bad, but they are lousy measuring devices. Soundtracks are dynamic sources which change frequently over time. Also soundtracks are sure to stimulate frequencies that cause room modes and nodes. With the information changing so rapidly from second to second, it is impossible to use a soundtrack to balance your system. Our ears cannot tell use that one speaker is 1-2 decibals off unless at least two channels are playing together. With two channels playing together you are hearing a sum of the two channels, instead of what is going on in each channel.

Yes, the best method is to set it where it sounds best to you, no matter what the SPL meter says. That can be very very misleading if you don't fully understand the meter, speaker distances, and room acoustics.

Everyone speaks of setting up speaker distances equidistantly. Room acoustics aside it is hard to know what sounds best with no reference. A SPL meter provides a base reference to which you can set things where it sounds best to you. If the only person that listens to your hometheater is you, then adjusting for personal taste only is cool. If you have guests, then possibly your own reference(without the benefit of accurate measuring devices) may not sound very balanced or good to them.

Also I would think that using a 2 channel CD on '5 channel natural' would probably be the worst thing to use to test sound quality and surround levels. How ironic that '5 channel natural' is the most UNnatural thing you could possibly have??!! You're taking a 2 channel CD and MAKING UP the 3 other channels. NO. NO! WHY?!??! My GOD!

Agreed.

So, what have we learned here?
1) Adjust it to where you like the sound. Who cares what some SPL meter says? Does it have ears? Will it be the one listening to the music?

The microphone in a SPL meter is probably more accurate in terms of measuring amplitude than our ears are. A accurate meter measures linearly across the entire frequency range of hearing. Our ears do not. Studio playback chains are calibrated, so why shouldn't home playback chains be also.

2) If you want 5.1 channel CD's, get them encoded in 5.1 by getting them on SACD or DVD-A. Don't expect some fake DSP mode to sound good.

Word!

3) To test your 5.1 sound, USE A 5.1 SOURCE!

Good luck

Agreed