Presence speakers - What do you think?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I only have a 5.1 system at home, and I much prefer how it sounds compared to a movie theater. I'm not saying that a movie theater doesn't have its strengths, but given a choice of duplicating a movie theater in my home or to use more conventional speakers of high quality, I would hands down go the home route. First off, horns just don't do a good job. They're great for loudness and dynamics, but fall short on the level of details. No offense intended to horn lovers, it's just a personal preference and I'm sure there are some great horns out there.

Have you heard all horn loaded speakers including custom ones? I don't think so, so to make a statement that horns are only good for dynamic and loudness, and not good on details is a rather ignorant statement.

Horns are mainly used in theaters because they take less power to run and they get loud. It's a compromise of quantity over quality. For their purpose, they are perfect, but in the home, there is better.

Steve, they use JBL or Klipsch THEATER speakers in the theater, and horn made for the home, in the home. The two are quite different not only sonically, but how it is implemented in each environment. These facts do not allow for generalization that are unsupported by lack of knowledge.

As for DSP, well that too is a personal choice. Every room is different and the same system in a small room will sound much different than in a large room. Why should I deny myself something that I feel improves the sound? Why should I let some recording engineer dictate what I should like. Why don't recording engineers do a better job so that we don't have to resort to DSP?

Improves the sound, or colors and render the sound spatially inaccurate. You say you are for accuracy, but yet choose this option. There is nothing accurate about DSP based spatial enhancement not account for on the dubbing stage. Your words, and your choices do not jive very well.

The fact is, that in your world, everything you do makes sense to you, but in the real world outside the studio, it gets much more complicated, the equipment is different, the rooms are different, and peoples expectations are different. There is no one shoe fits all.

This is such a BS statement. as it deifies logic. There is a reason that the ITU-775 speaker setup standard works for both the studio, and the home environment. They both will rendered the soundtrack spatially accurate and translatable from one environment to another. When you start doing stupid things like using three center speakers, DSP that steer sound upward, and esoteric speakers for soundtrack playback, then you need band-aids like this to make it work. If you follow the ITU-B775 standard, you don't need DSP to fill in the sonic holes that alternate placement create.

Strangely enough, I would never use DSP for my 2 channel system, but for surround, it seems to be useful.

I guess it is useful if you like colored and spatially inaccurate gimmicks.

[E-Stat]

There is nothing accurate about DSP based spatial enhancement not account[ed] for on the dubbing stage.

Amen!

rw

[StevenSurprenant]

Have you heard all horn loaded speakers including custom ones? I don't think so, so to make a statement that horns are only good for dynamic and loudness, and not good on details is a rather ignorant statement.

This is such a BS statement. as it deifies logic. There is a reason that the ITU-775 speaker setup standard works for both the studio, and the home environment. They both will rendered the soundtrack spatially accurate and translatable from one environment to another. When you start doing stupid things like using three center speakers, DSP that steer sound upward, and esoteric speakers for soundtrack playback, then you need band-aids like this to make it work. If you follow the ITU-B775 standard, you don't need DSP to fill in the sonic holes that alternate placement create.



I guess it is useful if you like colored and spatially inaccurate gimmicks.

No I haven't heard "All" horns, no-one has, but the many I have heard sound pretty decent, except they have, for lack of a better word, a hard sound to them. I have read about some horns that were supposed to be very good in relation to more conventional speakers. They sure were pretty! IMO I have never heard a horn sound as smooth and natural as other types of speakers. I'm also pretty sure there are some horns that will change my mind about them. I just haven't had the opportunity to hear those. As I said, it's a matter of taste. Some people don't like metal dome tweeters. There is no right or wrong. My opinion doesn't add up to a hill of beans except for those that feel as I do. Besides, everybody has their preferences. I had one guy tell me that my Quad ESL speakers sounded "almost" as good as his Bose. I didn't blast him for his opinion. If that's what he believed, then for him, it was true. We both went on our merry way. Besides, this isn't about horns. The only reason I mentioned it was because IMO other types of speakers sound more realistic and natural and if accuracy is what your main objective is, then you could do better.

I have no doubt that in a comparison between my system and yours, your system will blow mine out of the water for the wow factor, but play it at a more reasonable level like 85db peak, and my "budget" system would be more pleasing to listen to. Well, that's what I think. There is nothing wrong with horns, it only a matter of preference. The same applies to dipole planers versus box speakers. People who own box speakers rarely hear the boxes, but dipole speaker owners sure do.

Once I was listening to some Avalon speakers and I was thinking they sounded pretty good until my friend stood between them and began singing. That's when I realized how artificial they sounded. I think Avalon speakers are pretty good, but there was no way to confuse them with the real thing. The same applies to almost every stereo system I've heard. As good as speakers can get, they all pretty much sound like stereo's. That, in no way, diminishes our enjoyment of them, but this epiphany I had brought me back to my senses. As I told you before, at today's level of technology, we are dealing with a flawed technology and we delude ourselves into thinking that it's better than what it is. So, when you talk about accuracy, you are talking about technology that still has a long way to go before we can use the term "accurate".

"There is nothing accurate about DSP based spatial enhancement not account for on the dubbing stage"

The thing you seem to ignore is that each room changes the sound, sometimes dramatically, and what you hear in the studio is not what people hear in their home. The only way it could is if the home owner had an exact duplicate of the recording studio "in their home", room and all. That fact alone destroys any chance of duplicating what you hear in the studio. The room is every bit as important as the audio system. You say that people shouldn't use DSP, but would you be just as critical about the "room" which can have an even more profound effect on the sound. Then there is the fact that no-one uses the same speakers at home as you use in the recording studio. What you hear on your studio monitors will sound different than what I hear at home. I have yet to hear two speakers of different brands sound alike, at any price point. So, even before you get into DSP, you have to deal with room effects and different voiced speakers. If the goal is to duplicate what you hear during a recording session, the battle is lost before it begins.

As for the "ITU-775 speaker setup standard ", that is exactly how my system is set up within the constraints of my room.

"The fact is, that in your world, everything you do makes sense to you, but in the real world outside the studio, it gets much more complicated, the equipment is different, the rooms are different, and peoples expectations are different. There is no one shoe fits all."

[This is such a BS statement. as it deifies logic]

Really? Need I say more?

BTW, I picked up a sound pressure meter, as you suggested, and spec'd my speakers which I had adjusted by ear. They were all right on the money and needed no adjustments. It was money wasted, but I do like the conformation that it is right.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

No I haven't heard "All" horns, no-one has, but the many I have heard sound pretty decent, except they have, for lack of a better word, a hard sound to them. I have read about some horns that were supposed to be very good in relation to more conventional speakers. They sure were pretty! IMO I have never heard a horn sound as smooth and natural as other types of speakers. I'm also pretty sure there are some horns that will change my mind about them. I just haven't had the opportunity to hear those. As I said, it's a matter of taste. Some people don't like metal dome tweeters. There is no right or wrong. My opinion doesn't add up to a hill of beans except for those that feel as I do. Besides, everybody has their preferences. I had one guy tell me that my Quad ESL speakers sounded "almost" as good as his Bose. I didn't blast him for his opinion. If that's what he believed, then for him, it was true. We both went on our merry way. Besides, this isn't about horns. The only reason I mentioned it was because IMO other types of speakers sound more realistic and natural and if accuracy is what your main objective is, then you could do better.

The beginning of this comment should be prefaced with the words "in my very limited exposure to horn speakers". They make horn loaded speakers that don't even sound like horns, like my system in my signature. There is a whole world out there in regards to horn loaded speakers that you have no exposure to, and what makes your comments so laughable.

I have no doubt that in a comparison between my system and yours, your system will blow mine out of the water for the wow factor, but play it at a more reasonable level like 85db peak, and my "budget" system would be more pleasing to listen to. Well, that's what I think. There is nothing wrong with horns, it only a matter of preference. The same applies to dipole planers versus box speakers. People who own box speakers rarely hear the boxes, but dipole speaker owners sure do.

Here is the problem with this statement. You have zero basis to make it. You have never heard my system play, whether loud of soft, so you have no idea of its performance against your "budget" system. This is a prime example of someone pulling crap out of the air, and throwing it against the wall to see if it would stick. It doesn't, so perhaps one should stop throwing it against the wall.

Once I was listening to some Avalon speakers and I was thinking they sounded pretty good until my friend stood between them and began singing. That's when I realized how artificial they sounded. I think Avalon speakers are pretty good, but there was no way to confuse them with the real thing. The same applies to almost every stereo system I've heard. As good as speakers can get, they all pretty much sound like stereo's. That, in no way, diminishes our enjoyment of them, but this epiphany I had brought me back to my senses. As I told you before, at today's level of technology, we are dealing with a flawed technology and we delude ourselves into thinking that it's better than what it is. So, when you talk about accuracy, you are talking about technology that still has a long way to go before we can use the term "accurate".

This statement has the profoundness of a tea spoon of water on a sidewalk. We are not trying to reproduce the real thing, we are trying to reproduce what a microphone captures. There is a difference. If a speaker can reproduce all that the microphone captures, it is an accurate speakers. Not all speakers can do this, but that is the goal.

Anyone who uses a an unbalanced voice next to a speaker reproducing music as a reference, needs his head checked.

"There is nothing accurate about DSP based spatial enhancement not account for on the dubbing stage"

The thing you seem to ignore is that each room changes the sound, sometimes dramatically, and what you hear in the studio is not what people hear in their home.

Which is why I always check my studio mixes on my home systems. I have not ignored anything, you are assuming much.

The only way it could is if the home owner had an exact duplicate of the recording studio "in their home", room and all. That fact alone destroys any chance of duplicating what you hear in the studio. The room is every bit as important as the audio system. You say that people shouldn't use DSP, but would you be just as critical about the "room" which can have an even more profound effect on the sound. Then there is the fact that no-one uses the same speakers at home as you use in the recording studio. What you hear on your studio monitors will sound different than what I hear at home. I have yet to hear two speakers of different brands sound alike, at any price point. So, even before you get into DSP, you have to deal with room effects and different voiced speakers. If the goal is to duplicate what you hear during a recording session, the battle is lost before it begins.

Again you are making a ton of assumptions, and propagating BS red herring arguments. I am not interested in matching a home "sound: with a studio sound. I am interested in whether a home system can capture everything we have mixed in the studio, room aside. I am not interested in the room signature of the home, but the resolution of the speaker system itself. Room signature is one thing, speaker resolution is another completely different thing. I don't have the two mixed up, but you do.

As for the "ITU-775 speaker setup standard ", that is exactly how my system is set up within the constraints of my room.

Steven, either you follow the standard, or you don't. If the constraints of your room do not allow for it, then you are not following the standard PERIOD!

"The fact is, that in your world, everything you do makes sense to you, but in the real world outside the studio, it gets much more complicated, the equipment is different, the rooms are different, and peoples expectations are different. There is no one shoe fits all."

I don't live in a either or world, I live in both worlds. I have a studio system AND several mutlichannel systems in my homes. This idea that I only live in one world is born out of more assumptions on your part. Don't assume, ask questions and get the facts, then make an opinion. This is how you keep the horse before the cart, and not the other way around.

[This is such a BS statement. as it deifies logic]

Really? Need I say more?

Please don't, you have said quite enough.

BTW, I picked up a sound pressure meter, as you suggested, and spec'd my speakers which I had adjusted by ear. They were all right on the money and needed no adjustments. It was money wasted, but I do like the conformation that it is right.

Now you are blowing smoke in my face. Our ears do not make good measuring or balancing devices, and science has proven this over and over again. Unless your hearing is can tell 72db from 75db(and nobody's can) then you are BS'ing me.

Steven, I am convinced that you think I am stupid as hell. There is no way in the world you can think otherwise, and present this kind of BS to me. Go tell this kind of BS to somebody completely ignorant of how the ear works, but please do not present this kind of crap to me.

[StevenSurprenant]

The beginning of this comment should be prefaced with the words "in my very limited exposure to horn speakers". They make horn loaded speakers that don't even sound like horns, like my system in my signature. There is a whole world out there in regards to horn loaded speakers that you have no exposure to, and what makes your comments so laughable. .

I thought I made it clear that there were horns that didn't sound like horns.

Here is the problem with this statement. You have zero basis to make it. You have never heard my system play, whether loud of soft, so you have no idea of its performance against your "budget" system. This is a prime example of someone pulling crap out of the air, and throwing it against the wall to see if it would stick. It doesn't, so perhaps one should stop throwing it against the wall.

You're right, but aren't you the one that keeps knocking my systems configuration and yet have never heard it either? You tell me that more than one center channel is wrong on all accounts and you tell me that DSP is wrong on all accounts. I'm just feeding back what you gave me.

This statement has the profoundness of a tea spoon of water on a sidewalk. We are not trying to reproduce the real thing, we are trying to reproduce what a microphone captures. There is a difference. If a speaker can reproduce all that the microphone captures, it is an accurate speakers. Not all speakers can do this, but that is the goal.

People don't care what the microphone captures, they want a reproduction of the real event. Isn't that what this whole audio thing is about? I'm surprised to hear anyone say what you just did. I don't think any speaker manufacturer would say their speakers are so good they sound just like the microphone.

Anyone who uses a an unbalanced voice next to a speaker reproducing music as a reference, needs his head checked.

Huh?

"There is nothing accurate about DSP based spatial enhancement not account for on the dubbing stage"

Perhaps so, but like I said, if people feel it improves that sound, then perhaps the recording engineer could have done a better job. BTW, last night I performed the ultimate test, the girl friend test. I switched the DSP off and on without telling her what I was doing and asked her which she preferred. She choose the DSP. I asked her why and she replied, "it made everything sound clearer." So there you go...

Again you are making a ton of assumptions, and propagating BS red herring arguments. I am not interested in matching a home "sound: with a studio sound. I am interested in whether a home system can capture everything we have mixed in the studio, room aside. I am not interested in the room signature of the home, but the resolution of the speaker system itself. Room signature is one thing, speaker resolution is another completely different thing. I don't have the two mixed up, but you do.

There you go, insulting me. Are you telling me that if you moved your home system into my comparably small room that it will sound the same as it does at your house?

Steven, either you follow the standard, or you don't. If the constraints of your room do not allow for it, then you are not following the standard PERIOD!

As I have told you, I have my system set up to the standard that you mentioned, front speakers 30 degrees from center, back speakers within 20 degrees behind the seating position.

I don't live in a either or world, I live in both worlds. I have a studio system AND several mutlichannel systems in my homes. This idea that I only live in one world is born out of more assumptions on your part. Don't assume, ask questions and get the facts, then make an opinion. This is how you keep the horse before the cart, and not the other way around.

I envy you for that, but as an end user, I have to live with what someone else "feels" is correct. Being that I pay money for their services, I feel that I have a right to dictate my expectations to them. You would never let a home decorator have free reign on what they do to your home, you'd want some control over the outcome, wouldn't you? How is this any different?

Now you are blowing smoke in my face. Our ears do not make good measuring or balancing devices, and science has proven this over and over again. Unless your hearing is can tell 72db from 75db(and nobody's can) then you are BS'ing me.

Steven, I am convinced that you think I am stupid as hell. There is no way in the world you can think otherwise, and present this kind of BS to me. Go tell this kind of BS to somebody completely ignorant of how the ear works, but please do not present this kind of crap to me.

I BS you not, but after 40+ years of careful listening, I should have gotten something out of it. Don't you think? Anybody can do anything reasonably well if they put the time and effort in it.

I do not think you're stupid. I think you are a very smart man and whether I agree with you or not, I respect your opinion. I also think you know a great deal more than I do. The difference between you and I is that in your world, everything is already mapped out, defined to the nth degree and there is no room for any variance.

I have lived my entire life listening to experts declare one thing or another as fact, yet years latter, I heard many of these same people use the phrase, "we used to believe".

It sounds to me that you put your heart and soul into your work and have pride in what you do. I commend you on that and feel that you fully deserve that praise.

From my perspective, I've listened to speakers designed in so many ways that it's mind boggling, monopole, dipole, bipole, planers, point sources, horns, electrostats, plasma, line arrays, and mixtures of these technologies. The list is much larger than this, but the point is that they all sound different in one way or another. Some people claim that the ideal speaker is a point source and their logic is valid. Some people love horns because they are very dynamic and that is strong reason to want horns. Without going on infinitum, each has it's strengths "and" weaknesses. There is no right or wrong, The only "real" metric that we can measure a system by is reality, what we hear from life around us. Even so, people buy what they think sounds good to them regardless of that metric.

The same applies to what you do. You have a certain criteria that you go by when making a product, but that doesn't mean everyone thinks it as good as it gets. Apparently, we want more than you can offer and so we resort to DSP or some other artificial magic. Right or wrong, if we think it sounds better, than it does, at least to us. You need to accept that and not be so critical.

Respects...

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I thought I made it clear that there were horns that didn't sound like horns.

No, you didn't.

You're right, but aren't you the one that keeps knocking my systems configuration and yet have never heard it either? You tell me that more than one center channel is wrong on all accounts and you tell me that DSP is wrong on all accounts. I'm just feeding back what you gave me.

I have heard more than one center speaker, and I've heard Yamaha's DSP at work in a system. When I make my opinions on both of these, at least it is an experienced one. The same cannot be said about you and my system. I am making a judgement on these two technologies, you are making a judgement on something you have never heard.

People don't care what the microphone captures, they want a reproduction of the real event. Isn't that what this whole audio thing is about? I'm surprised to hear anyone say what you just did. I don't think any speaker manufacturer would say their speakers are so good they sound just like the microphone.

What kind of BS statement is this. If they want the real event, they go to it. It would take hundreds of microphones to capture enough detail to make something sound real. It would take hundreds of speakers to play this all back. That is not financially feasible on the recording side, or the playback side. When we are listening to recordings, we are listening to what the microphones have captured. If you are looking for a real event, sell you system, and go to events.

Huh?

I figured this would be your response.

Perhaps so, but like I said, if people feel it improves that sound, then perhaps the recording engineer could have done a better job. BTW, last night I performed the ultimate test, the girl friend test. I switched the DSP off and on without telling her what I was doing and asked her which she preferred. She choose the DSP. I asked her why and she replied, "it made everything sound clearer." So there you go...

Oh brother, the epitome of testing accuracy. The girlfriend test. Science ought to love this breakthrough.

As far as your statement of "improves that sound", and "perhaps the recording engineer could have done better", these are subjective. arrogant, arm chair statements. How does one go about improving the reference? Band-aids? Fuzzy wuzzy DSP enhancements? Esoteric speaker designs more appropriate for 2 channel music than movie soundtracks? I don't think so.

Since when does a matrix generated processed sound better than the accurate original sound? When you goal is to degrade and distort the original intentions of the soundtrack creator. When you are trying to compensate for the inadequacy of the reproducing system.

There you go, insulting me. Are you telling me that if you moved your home system into my comparably small room that it will sound the same as it does at your house?

You are insulting yourself with your comments. I am not saying this at all, the house or room is not the center of this debate. It is the ability of whatever SYSTEM to accurately playback what is on the media PERIOD. You are mixing room characteristics with SYSTEM resolution.

As I have told you, I have my system set up to the standard that you mentioned, front speakers 30 degrees from center, back speakers within 20 degrees behind the seating position.

Curiously no mention of the center channel, especially important with a system that has limited vertical and horizontal dispersion.

I envy you for that, but as an end user, I have to live with what someone else "feels" is correct.

That is because the original creator is correct. The original creator created the reference, the end user can only judge the creation based on the capabilities of their system, and how it lines up to the reference.

Being that I pay money for their services, I feel that I have a right to dictate my expectations to them. You would never let a home decorator have free reign on what they do to your home, you'd want some control over the outcome, wouldn't you? How is this any different?

When dealing with any audio or visual technology, since when have you paid for access to the creator, or dictate to the creator how it is supposed to sound or look? What expert like perspective do you have to challenge those professionals, you amateur perspective? Hell no! I am not going to let anyone that has zero studio experience, zero soundtrack mixing or mastering experience, zero soundtrack pre and post production experience, zero score mixing experience, zero audio experience on the pre and post production side tell me how to do my job. I don't get paid enough to allow that.

Your analogy of a home decorator is faulty. You have direct interaction with them, you have none with a sound designers, mixer, or masterers. You have zero input at any level of pre and post production whether we are talking about sound or picture.

I BS you not, but after 40+ years of careful listening, I should have gotten something out of it. Don't you think? Anybody can do anything reasonably well if they put the time and effort in it.

So you think your arm chair experience is greater than my 25 years of experience in creating what you listen to? The blatant arrogance of this statement is staggering.

I do not think you're stupid. I think you are a very smart man and whether I agree with you or not, I respect your opinion. I also think you know a great deal more than I do. The difference between you and I is that in your world, everything is already mapped out, defined to the nth degree and there is no room for any variance.

Once again, I live in both worlds. I create both mutlichannel and 2 channel tracks, and I am a listener to them on the other side. If accuracy was you true goal(instead of distorting and overly enhancing), then variance is a curse rather than a blessing. In multichannel music and movies(as opposed to 2 channel audio) there are standards that are transferable from one environment to the next. Follow those standards, and there is a constancy from one place to the next.

I have lived my entire life listening to experts declare one thing or another as fact, yet years latter, I heard many of these same people use the phrase, "we used to believe".

It sounds to me that you put your heart and soul into your work and have pride in what you do. I commend you on that and feel that you fully deserve that praise.

From my perspective, I've listened to speakers designed in so many ways that it's mind boggling, monopole, dipole, bipole, planers, point sources, horns, electrostats, plasma, line arrays, and mixtures of these technologies. The list is much larger than this, but the point is that they all sound different in one way or another. Some people claim that the ideal speaker is a point source and their logic is valid. Some people love horns because they are very dynamic and that is strong reason to want horns. Without going on infinitum, each has it's strengths "and" weaknesses. There is no right or wrong, The only "real" metric that we can measure a system by is reality, what we hear from life around us. Even so, people buy what they think sounds good to them regardless of that metric.

I cannot disagree with any of this statement.

The same applies to what you do. You have a certain criteria that you go by when making a product, but that doesn't mean everyone thinks it as good as it gets. Apparently, we want more than you can offer and so we resort to DSP or some other artificial magic. Right or wrong, if we think it sounds better, than it does, at least to us. You need to accept that and not be so critical.

Respects...

Steven, you are wrong about this on so many levels. I have but one criteria when I make the product. It must sound the best it can within the standards set by SMPTE, or the client. The only time somebody wants to alter the reference, is when they are compensating for a poor playback system that does not come close to the reference system it was created on. There is no way any sound designer, or re-recording engineer can design a soundtrack that is optimized for every different speaker design, or room characteristic out in the field. Your entire perspective on this issue is completely twisted. It is up to the end user to put together a system that accurately portrays the intent of the creator, not the other way around.

If you are no expert in sound deisgn, sound mixing, performing surgical operations, doing corporate accounting, or DOG TRAINING, how can your amatuer experience possible trump the professionals? It can't, and it is the height of arrogance that you think you can.

With absolutely no experience or education, it is not wise to challenge those who have both. My Dad gave me this wise advice when I was a kid. It might not hurt you any to take that advice.