Presence speakers - What do you think?

[StevenSurprenant]

The beginning of this comment should be prefaced with the words "in my very limited exposure to horn speakers". They make horn loaded speakers that don't even sound like horns, like my system in my signature. There is a whole world out there in regards to horn loaded speakers that you have no exposure to, and what makes your comments so laughable. .

I thought I made it clear that there were horns that didn't sound like horns.

Here is the problem with this statement. You have zero basis to make it. You have never heard my system play, whether loud of soft, so you have no idea of its performance against your "budget" system. This is a prime example of someone pulling crap out of the air, and throwing it against the wall to see if it would stick. It doesn't, so perhaps one should stop throwing it against the wall.

You're right, but aren't you the one that keeps knocking my systems configuration and yet have never heard it either? You tell me that more than one center channel is wrong on all accounts and you tell me that DSP is wrong on all accounts. I'm just feeding back what you gave me.

This statement has the profoundness of a tea spoon of water on a sidewalk. We are not trying to reproduce the real thing, we are trying to reproduce what a microphone captures. There is a difference. If a speaker can reproduce all that the microphone captures, it is an accurate speakers. Not all speakers can do this, but that is the goal.

People don't care what the microphone captures, they want a reproduction of the real event. Isn't that what this whole audio thing is about? I'm surprised to hear anyone say what you just did. I don't think any speaker manufacturer would say their speakers are so good they sound just like the microphone.

Anyone who uses a an unbalanced voice next to a speaker reproducing music as a reference, needs his head checked.

Huh?

"There is nothing accurate about DSP based spatial enhancement not account for on the dubbing stage"

Perhaps so, but like I said, if people feel it improves that sound, then perhaps the recording engineer could have done a better job. BTW, last night I performed the ultimate test, the girl friend test. I switched the DSP off and on without telling her what I was doing and asked her which she preferred. She choose the DSP. I asked her why and she replied, "it made everything sound clearer." So there you go...

Again you are making a ton of assumptions, and propagating BS red herring arguments. I am not interested in matching a home "sound: with a studio sound. I am interested in whether a home system can capture everything we have mixed in the studio, room aside. I am not interested in the room signature of the home, but the resolution of the speaker system itself. Room signature is one thing, speaker resolution is another completely different thing. I don't have the two mixed up, but you do.

There you go, insulting me. Are you telling me that if you moved your home system into my comparably small room that it will sound the same as it does at your house?

Steven, either you follow the standard, or you don't. If the constraints of your room do not allow for it, then you are not following the standard PERIOD!

As I have told you, I have my system set up to the standard that you mentioned, front speakers 30 degrees from center, back speakers within 20 degrees behind the seating position.

I don't live in a either or world, I live in both worlds. I have a studio system AND several mutlichannel systems in my homes. This idea that I only live in one world is born out of more assumptions on your part. Don't assume, ask questions and get the facts, then make an opinion. This is how you keep the horse before the cart, and not the other way around.

I envy you for that, but as an end user, I have to live with what someone else "feels" is correct. Being that I pay money for their services, I feel that I have a right to dictate my expectations to them. You would never let a home decorator have free reign on what they do to your home, you'd want some control over the outcome, wouldn't you? How is this any different?

Now you are blowing smoke in my face. Our ears do not make good measuring or balancing devices, and science has proven this over and over again. Unless your hearing is can tell 72db from 75db(and nobody's can) then you are BS'ing me.

Steven, I am convinced that you think I am stupid as hell. There is no way in the world you can think otherwise, and present this kind of BS to me. Go tell this kind of BS to somebody completely ignorant of how the ear works, but please do not present this kind of crap to me.

I BS you not, but after 40+ years of careful listening, I should have gotten something out of it. Don't you think? Anybody can do anything reasonably well if they put the time and effort in it.

I do not think you're stupid. I think you are a very smart man and whether I agree with you or not, I respect your opinion. I also think you know a great deal more than I do. The difference between you and I is that in your world, everything is already mapped out, defined to the nth degree and there is no room for any variance.

I have lived my entire life listening to experts declare one thing or another as fact, yet years latter, I heard many of these same people use the phrase, "we used to believe".

It sounds to me that you put your heart and soul into your work and have pride in what you do. I commend you on that and feel that you fully deserve that praise.

From my perspective, I've listened to speakers designed in so many ways that it's mind boggling, monopole, dipole, bipole, planers, point sources, horns, electrostats, plasma, line arrays, and mixtures of these technologies. The list is much larger than this, but the point is that they all sound different in one way or another. Some people claim that the ideal speaker is a point source and their logic is valid. Some people love horns because they are very dynamic and that is strong reason to want horns. Without going on infinitum, each has it's strengths "and" weaknesses. There is no right or wrong, The only "real" metric that we can measure a system by is reality, what we hear from life around us. Even so, people buy what they think sounds good to them regardless of that metric.

The same applies to what you do. You have a certain criteria that you go by when making a product, but that doesn't mean everyone thinks it as good as it gets. Apparently, we want more than you can offer and so we resort to DSP or some other artificial magic. Right or wrong, if we think it sounds better, than it does, at least to us. You need to accept that and not be so critical.

Respects...

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I thought I made it clear that there were horns that didn't sound like horns.

No, you didn't.

You're right, but aren't you the one that keeps knocking my systems configuration and yet have never heard it either? You tell me that more than one center channel is wrong on all accounts and you tell me that DSP is wrong on all accounts. I'm just feeding back what you gave me.

I have heard more than one center speaker, and I've heard Yamaha's DSP at work in a system. When I make my opinions on both of these, at least it is an experienced one. The same cannot be said about you and my system. I am making a judgement on these two technologies, you are making a judgement on something you have never heard.

People don't care what the microphone captures, they want a reproduction of the real event. Isn't that what this whole audio thing is about? I'm surprised to hear anyone say what you just did. I don't think any speaker manufacturer would say their speakers are so good they sound just like the microphone.

What kind of BS statement is this. If they want the real event, they go to it. It would take hundreds of microphones to capture enough detail to make something sound real. It would take hundreds of speakers to play this all back. That is not financially feasible on the recording side, or the playback side. When we are listening to recordings, we are listening to what the microphones have captured. If you are looking for a real event, sell you system, and go to events.

Huh?

I figured this would be your response.

Perhaps so, but like I said, if people feel it improves that sound, then perhaps the recording engineer could have done a better job. BTW, last night I performed the ultimate test, the girl friend test. I switched the DSP off and on without telling her what I was doing and asked her which she preferred. She choose the DSP. I asked her why and she replied, "it made everything sound clearer." So there you go...

Oh brother, the epitome of testing accuracy. The girlfriend test. Science ought to love this breakthrough.

As far as your statement of "improves that sound", and "perhaps the recording engineer could have done better", these are subjective. arrogant, arm chair statements. How does one go about improving the reference? Band-aids? Fuzzy wuzzy DSP enhancements? Esoteric speaker designs more appropriate for 2 channel music than movie soundtracks? I don't think so.

Since when does a matrix generated processed sound better than the accurate original sound? When you goal is to degrade and distort the original intentions of the soundtrack creator. When you are trying to compensate for the inadequacy of the reproducing system.

There you go, insulting me. Are you telling me that if you moved your home system into my comparably small room that it will sound the same as it does at your house?

You are insulting yourself with your comments. I am not saying this at all, the house or room is not the center of this debate. It is the ability of whatever SYSTEM to accurately playback what is on the media PERIOD. You are mixing room characteristics with SYSTEM resolution.

As I have told you, I have my system set up to the standard that you mentioned, front speakers 30 degrees from center, back speakers within 20 degrees behind the seating position.

Curiously no mention of the center channel, especially important with a system that has limited vertical and horizontal dispersion.

I envy you for that, but as an end user, I have to live with what someone else "feels" is correct.

That is because the original creator is correct. The original creator created the reference, the end user can only judge the creation based on the capabilities of their system, and how it lines up to the reference.

Being that I pay money for their services, I feel that I have a right to dictate my expectations to them. You would never let a home decorator have free reign on what they do to your home, you'd want some control over the outcome, wouldn't you? How is this any different?

When dealing with any audio or visual technology, since when have you paid for access to the creator, or dictate to the creator how it is supposed to sound or look? What expert like perspective do you have to challenge those professionals, you amateur perspective? Hell no! I am not going to let anyone that has zero studio experience, zero soundtrack mixing or mastering experience, zero soundtrack pre and post production experience, zero score mixing experience, zero audio experience on the pre and post production side tell me how to do my job. I don't get paid enough to allow that.

Your analogy of a home decorator is faulty. You have direct interaction with them, you have none with a sound designers, mixer, or masterers. You have zero input at any level of pre and post production whether we are talking about sound or picture.

I BS you not, but after 40+ years of careful listening, I should have gotten something out of it. Don't you think? Anybody can do anything reasonably well if they put the time and effort in it.

So you think your arm chair experience is greater than my 25 years of experience in creating what you listen to? The blatant arrogance of this statement is staggering.

I do not think you're stupid. I think you are a very smart man and whether I agree with you or not, I respect your opinion. I also think you know a great deal more than I do. The difference between you and I is that in your world, everything is already mapped out, defined to the nth degree and there is no room for any variance.

Once again, I live in both worlds. I create both mutlichannel and 2 channel tracks, and I am a listener to them on the other side. If accuracy was you true goal(instead of distorting and overly enhancing), then variance is a curse rather than a blessing. In multichannel music and movies(as opposed to 2 channel audio) there are standards that are transferable from one environment to the next. Follow those standards, and there is a constancy from one place to the next.

I have lived my entire life listening to experts declare one thing or another as fact, yet years latter, I heard many of these same people use the phrase, "we used to believe".

It sounds to me that you put your heart and soul into your work and have pride in what you do. I commend you on that and feel that you fully deserve that praise.

From my perspective, I've listened to speakers designed in so many ways that it's mind boggling, monopole, dipole, bipole, planers, point sources, horns, electrostats, plasma, line arrays, and mixtures of these technologies. The list is much larger than this, but the point is that they all sound different in one way or another. Some people claim that the ideal speaker is a point source and their logic is valid. Some people love horns because they are very dynamic and that is strong reason to want horns. Without going on infinitum, each has it's strengths "and" weaknesses. There is no right or wrong, The only "real" metric that we can measure a system by is reality, what we hear from life around us. Even so, people buy what they think sounds good to them regardless of that metric.

I cannot disagree with any of this statement.

The same applies to what you do. You have a certain criteria that you go by when making a product, but that doesn't mean everyone thinks it as good as it gets. Apparently, we want more than you can offer and so we resort to DSP or some other artificial magic. Right or wrong, if we think it sounds better, than it does, at least to us. You need to accept that and not be so critical.

Respects...

Steven, you are wrong about this on so many levels. I have but one criteria when I make the product. It must sound the best it can within the standards set by SMPTE, or the client. The only time somebody wants to alter the reference, is when they are compensating for a poor playback system that does not come close to the reference system it was created on. There is no way any sound designer, or re-recording engineer can design a soundtrack that is optimized for every different speaker design, or room characteristic out in the field. Your entire perspective on this issue is completely twisted. It is up to the end user to put together a system that accurately portrays the intent of the creator, not the other way around.

If you are no expert in sound deisgn, sound mixing, performing surgical operations, doing corporate accounting, or DOG TRAINING, how can your amatuer experience possible trump the professionals? It can't, and it is the height of arrogance that you think you can.

With absolutely no experience or education, it is not wise to challenge those who have both. My Dad gave me this wise advice when I was a kid. It might not hurt you any to take that advice.