Presence speakers - What do you think?

[E-Stat]

Sorry, but he knew it was a 500hz test tone in the first place. He did not just guess the frequency.

Read further:

"I would know a 500Hz tone. I would also know 1KHz, 2KHz, 6.3KHz, 10KHz, 12KHz and 16KHz"

Mixing certainly cannot fix the stupid things that one uses to artificially enhance an already completed mix

I refer to the use of dissimilar speakers, i.e. low hung centers.

So you have NOT read SMPTE standards, and obviously not read THX's applying those rules to hometheaters.

Then show us your brilliance with an example that illustrates your point. The other one certainly did not.

Once again, I have no problem whatsoever with my center speakers that sit UNDER the television..ZERO problem.

We really couldn't care less as to whether or not you perceive the difference.

Don't put words in my mouth...

I'll continue to ignore the reference as you advised.

Our mixing to sound realistic is not the issue.

Sorry to hear that - as most consumers expect realism to be part of the product!

rw

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Read further:

"I would know a 500Hz tone. I would also know 1KHz, 2KHz, 6.3KHz, 10KHz, 12KHz and 16KHz"

He never said that he knew them before he started working at the place did he? Once I know a tone, and its frequency, then it becomes easier to recognize what I am hearing. He had to have a reference, he didn't just guess it was that frequency.

I refer to the use of dissimilar speakers, i.e. low hung centers.

We have discussed this before. THX recommends no more than 12" of vertical displacement between the mains and center. That can apply to above the set, and below the set. What they don't recommend is horizontally placed center speakers because of strong interaction with the floor and ceiling.

Then show us your brilliance with an example that isn't so simple.

Not doing your homework for you.

I don't recall anyone asking if you had any problems.

So what. Just pointing out that there is no problem with putting a center speaker under a television screen. You must be doing something wrong Ralph.

I'll continue to ignore the reference as you advised.

You can sit on a stick, I don't care.....

Sorry to hear that as most consumers expect that of the product.

rw

And they get that product when it leaves our studio. What you do with it afterwards is another story altogether.

[bfalls]

Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
Bfalls has already done that.
Sorry, but he knew it was a 500hz test tone in the first place. He did not just guess the frequency.

I should clarify. Having performed so many EQs using TEAC test tapes, I can tell a difference. If asked to tell the difference between two tones, knowing the ranges, I can tell if one's say 6.3KHz instead of 10KHz. Given a 10KHz tone and an 11KHz tone, I doubt I could. Possibly 50% of the time if I flipped a coin. I really doubt I could tell subtle differences in level. I wouldn't try setting up a system by ear.

For the record, I do have a Yamaha RX-V2095. I used to run the front "presence" speakers. They filled in the front some, but the difference wasn't fulfilling or clarifying. I no longer use them and haven't for many years.

I also don't necessarily like DSP and used it only rarely to enhance stereo TV programs. Then it's a trick to find a suitable one. Most have too much echo. I find the "club" DSP modes acceptable at times. Anything related to "concert" or stadiums sound WAC. It's the same with all my processors/receivers.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
Bfalls has already done that.
Sorry, but he knew it was a 500hz test tone in the first place. He did not just guess the frequency.

I should clarify. Having performed so many EQs using TEAC test tapes, I can tell a difference. If asked to tell the difference between two tones, knowing the ranges, I can tell if one's say 6.3KHz instead of 10KHz. Given a 10KHz tone and an 11KHz tone, I doubt I could. Possibly 50% of the time if I flipped a coin. I really doubt I could tell subtle differences in level. I wouldn't try setting up a system by ear.

For the record, I do have a Yamaha RX-V2095. I used to run the front "presence" speakers. They filled in the front some, but the difference wasn't fulfilling or clarifying. I no longer use them and haven't for many years.

I also don't necessarily like DSP and used it only rarely to enhance stereo TV programs. Then it's a trick to find a suitable one. Most have too much echo. I find the "club" DSP modes acceptable at times. Anything related to "concert" or stadiums sound WAC. It's the same with all my processors/receivers.

Bfalls, thanks for this clarification, and for making my point.

[E-Stat]

He never said that he knew them before he started working at the place did he?

You're going around in circles.

We have discussed this before.

And I have no idea why you continue to state the simplistic guideline. There isn't a cinema anywhere that compromises its sound quality in that way. THX offers their opinion of a reasonable compromise that the general public will accept. Does there continue to be any part of that you don't understand?

Not doing your homework for you.

We'll reserve judgement on your claim to when it is substantiated.

So what. Just pointing out that there is no problem with putting a center speaker under a television screen.

You do not hear image (in)coherence the way I do.

And they get that product when it leaves our studio. What you do with it afterwards is another story altogether.

We can improve it!

rw

[bfalls]

Just being honest. It's just the way the chips fell. Being in the industry, I understand much of what you're stating. I work with authoring labs all the time, we used to have our own authoring studio in-house before they moved it to LA and New York. I work with them moreso asking when my images will be ready for protecting. I wish I knew more about the authoring side.

I was certified by ISF in Video and Audio setup several years ago, so understand a lot of the standards. It was pre-HDMI so not much experience with 7.1. The knowledge has enhanced my home system setup. I also have Electronics and Computer Hardware degrees, so can usually tell the difference between snake oil and solid performers. I don't have cryogenicaly-treated fuses in my systems or magic stones sitting on my speakers. These have to be proven by something other than a few listening experiences. You'll have to show me the science.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

You're going around in circles.

So are you, so what's the point.

And I have no idea why you continue to state the simplistic guideline. There isn't a cinema anywhere that compromises its sound quality in that way. THX offers their opinion of a reasonable compromise that the general public will accept. Does there continue to be any part of that you don't understand?

Since you have not read SMPTE standards, nor THX guidlines for hometheaters, then this statement is a needless air sandwich. Next....

We'll reserve judgement on your claim to when it is substantiated.

Who gives a damn about YOUR judgement, I don't.

You do not hear image (in)coherence the way I do.

Thank goodness.

We can improve it!

rw

You haven't so far.

[E-Stat]

So are you, so what's the point.

Once again, we'll reserve judgement on your assertions when you are able to substantiate them.

Since you have not read SMPTE standards, nor THX guidlines for hometheaters

Sorry, bad assumption. Not that you recognized it, but I quoted the former in #59. I've previously linked to pictures from the latter showing proper location of front speakers.

rw

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Once again, we'll reserve judgement on your assertions when you are able to substantiate them.

Ralph, you must know by now I don't give a damn about your judgement. It means absolutely nothing to me.

Sorry, bad assumption. Not that you recognized it, but I quoted the former in #59. I've previously linked to pictures from the latter showing proper location of front speakers.

rw

Yet none of it apples to hometheaters. So, when are you going to read THX recommendations which actually apply to hometheaters? Ah, never mind. I don't think it is even important at this juncture.

[StevenSurprenant]

Stupid Steven....you cannot determine if I am a poser or not. Using your assumption to fill in the blanks does not cut it. Based on what I have read from you comments, your not a poser, you really are stupid.

Anyone who have been on this site knows I have the education and insight to what I do, and some bitter online punk who does not like what I have to say is not going to change that. Wine and cry to somebody else who will pay attention, I am not.

Weren't you complaining that your center speaker localizes below the screen? Yep you were, which means you speaker is not properly placed, or too directional to get the dialog on screen. What the point of telling you anything if you cannot properly playback what I mix.

You may or may not have the education, I have no proof of that. What I can tell from your posts is that you don't listen to what people are saying, you constantly assume things that are inaccurate, and you assume that what you claim you do is correct regardless of the opinion of the general public, the people who spend their money so that you can have a job. If TV manufacturers, or car manufacturers didn't give the people what they wanted , they would be out of business. You feel that you have the right to dictate to us what is best for us. That is wrong on all accounts.

Listen to how you address people here who disagree with you or question your positions. It's like you're a 3 year old child throwing a temper tantrum. No one can respect a spoiled child. To show you how disrespectful you are to others, when ForeverAutumn asked you and I to stop polluting his/her thread with our bickering or they were going to delete the post, your reply was, "I vote for close it then". How selfish and self centered can a person be than that. You're so egotistical that you see nothing wrong with that.

More than once, I've asked for examples of your work and you've ignored or avoided that request. That makes me assume that you do not have anything to show or that you are ashamed of the work you've done. I'l ask one more time, but this time I also want the name of your employer.

Tell you what...

If it will make you happy, I'll claim that you are all knowing and all powerful. Would that make you happy? YOU can be the god of all things audio. That way you can sit back a relax knowing that heathens like myself and others who question your authority will go to audio hell when we die. You don't have to worry about it any longer. How's that?

[E-Stat]

Yet none of it apples to hometheaters. So, when are you going to read THX recommendations which actually apply to hometheaters?

I find it strange that you don't seem to understand that ideal speaker radiation and coherence is independent of locale. Cinemas are set up for the best approach and most home theaters are not. Period.

I guess I'm surprised you don't seek ways to bridge the gap. You continually quote a compromised standard and not worry about the results. Apparently, it isn't important enough to you. Ok!

rw

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

You may or may not have the education, I have no proof of that. What I can tell from your posts is that you don't listen to what people are saying, you constantly assume things that are inaccurate, and you assume that what you claim you do is correct regardless of the opinion of the general public, the people who spend their money so that you can have a job. If TV manufacturers, or car manufacturers didn't give the people what they wanted , they would be out of business. You feel that you have the right to dictate to us what is best for us. That is wrong on all accounts.

Oh I guess I should bow down to you just because you buy a bluray. Ahhh no....well I mean HELL NO!

Listen to how you address people here who disagree with you or question your positions. It's like you're a 3 year old child throwing a temper tantrum. No one can respect a spoiled child. To show you how disrespectful you are to others, when ForeverAutumn asked you and I to stop polluting his/her thread with our bickering or they were going to delete the post, your reply was, "I vote for close it then". How selfish and self centered can a person be than that. You're so egotistical that you see nothing wrong with that.

Oh these are terrible things to say. Geeze, my life is going to come to an end. My rep has been tarnished, and I just may never recover. Well, I wanted that thread closed because you spewed so much misinformation about dog behavior(like you do on audio as well), that it is better to close it, than to let you continue spreading the WRONG INFORMATION.

More than once, I've asked for examples of your work and you've ignored or avoided that request. That makes me assume that you do not have anything to show or that you are ashamed of the work you've done. I'l ask one more time, but this time I also want the name of your employer.

And once more I will turn you down flat. I don't owe you a blade of grass, and I do not have to give you any personal information about myself. Its none of your damn business.

Tell you what...

If it will make you happy, I'll claim that you are all knowing and all powerful. Would that make you happy? YOU can be the god of all things audio. That way you can sit back a relax knowing that heathens like myself and others who question your authority will go to audio hell when we die. You don't have to worry about it any longer. How's that?

This is more for you than it is for me, I assure you. Like I have told you before, you are just words on a forum. I don't think you are a heathen, just uniformed, out of date, and just plain uneducated on the issues you are trying to argue over.

Imagine the arrogance of coming to a forum and declaring the audio mixers in Hollywood have it wrong, and you have it right. And doing this without stepping into a studio, without mixing a single soundtrack, or touching a single fader on a mixing board. What gall, and this is why you are getting the verbal smackdown.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I find it strange that you don't seem to understand that ideal speaker radiation and coherence is independent of locale. Cinemas are set up for the best approach and most home theaters are not. Period.

Wrong Ralph. Cinemas are set up for the best approach to movie theaters, not to the home. THX has set the standards for best approach for hometheaters. The studio I work for does seperate mixes for both environments, and playing back the HT mix in a cinema will not work, and there are documented issues on why cinema mixes have trouble in smaller rooms.

I guess I'm surprised you don't seek ways to bridge the gap. You continually quote a compromised standard and not worry about the results. Apparently, it isn't important enough to you. Ok!

rw

Ralph, you are becoming the father of assumptions. Keep up old man.....

Why soundtracks should be remixed for hometheater

[E-Stat]

THX has set the standards for best approach for hometheaters.

Yes, they have. Let's review the recommendations, shall we? Read this.

"Center Channel Speaker (C): Place the Center channel speaker either above or below the display. Then, aim the speaker either up or down to point directly at the listener. If you have a perforated projection screen, center this speaker both horizontally and vertically behind the screen."

Is there any part of the last sentence you don't understand - especially since you were completely unaware of it?

The studio I work for does seperate mixes for both environments, and playing back the HT mix in a cinema will not work, and there are documented issues on why cinema mixes have trouble in smaller rooms.

And none of those issues relate to symmetric positioning of the center relative to the fronts.

Ralph, you are becoming the father of assumptions. Keep up old man.....

I stand corrected. Clearly, audio quality is of secondary interest to you.

rw

[StevenSurprenant]

Oh I guess I should bow down to you just because you buy a bluray. Ahhh no....well I mean HELL NO!



Oh these are terrible things to say. Geeze, my life is going to come to an end. My rep has been tarnished, and I just may never recover. Well, I wanted that thread closed because you spewed so much misinformation about dog behavior(like you do on audio as well), that it is better to close it, than to let you continue spreading the WRONG INFORMATION.



And once more I will turn you down flat. I don't owe you a blade of grass, and I do not have to give you any personal information about myself. Its none of your damn business.



This is more for you than it is for me, I assure you. Like I have told you before, you are just words on a forum. I don't think you are a heathen, just uniformed, out of date, and just plain uneducated on the issues you are trying to argue over.

Imagine the arrogance of coming to a forum and declaring the audio mixers in Hollywood have it wrong, and you have it right. And doing this without stepping into a studio, without mixing a single soundtrack, or touching a single fader on a mixing board. What gall, and this is why you are getting the verbal smackdown.

You're the one who started all this. You couldn't stand to respect anyone else's opinion. It had to be your way or you would begin the name calling. A decent human being, if they felt the other person was wrong, would politely inform them of what they believed to be correct and then let it drop. Not you, you go on harping, over and over and over. As I said, you don't listen to what the other person has said and so you end up in left field arguing about assumptions that are not true. You're an "A: type personality, and as such you self proclaimed yourself the resident expert on this forum. I heard no such claim from anyone else, only you.

As for not wanting to show your work, I take that to mean that you have nothing to show. However, you're right that you owe me nothing, but when you put your foot in your mouth, you should have the decency to back up your claims. It's a weakness on your part.

The audio field is vast in that it has many aspects. You have your little niche in it that you feel makes you knowledgeable, but that's all you know and I have doubts about your level of expertise. I freely admit that my knowledge is limited, as is everyone else's, and the more I learn, the more I realize that I don't know. You, on the other hand, claim to know all things audio and that makes you the smartest guy on the planet. Good for you!

As for my arrogance, there isn't any profession that cannot be improved. There isn't any profession that isn't in a state of constant learning. To claim perfection is your forte and the arrogance is yours.

I grew up at a time when TV's were just becoming commercially available, when stereo didn't exist in any home, when transistors had just been invented, when space vehicles didn't exist, before the first commercial computer was invented, and when much of what we take for granted today was more in the realm of science fiction. I was there to witness all of this and that is worth more than a few semesters at some college. Many people on the forum can say the same thing.

I watched different record formats come and go, 78 - 45 - 33 rpm records, reel to reel tape, cassettes, 8-tracks, CD's, DVD's, HDCD, DVD-a, SACD, MP3, and others. I've watched home audio go from mono to stereo to quad to surround to biaural, and it hasn't stopped changing during all those years and won't stop changing for a great deal longer.

Even after all these years and all these advancements, almost all stereos and "all" surround systems still sound artificial compared to the real thing. We still have a long way to go before home audio, in any format approaches reality or approaches the limits of our hearing capabilities. For you to sit there and imply that what you do approaches anything close to real, is beyond belief. The best technology is years away from even getting close to perfection. To be fair, you're limited by the level of technology available and the limits of what we know about audio. Audio is still a heavily researched discipline and there is still a great deal to learn. THX, like all other agreed upon standards is going to be a foot note in the history of audio.

As far as I am concerned, you might just as well be arguing about the superiority of the gramophone. I see what you do as working with an inferior technology that is destined to change. All the standards and all the techniques used in the audio field are going to change because they are flawed. For now, we have to live with it, but to declare it a science neglects the fact that science doesn't stand still. Comparing what you consider science is like comparing Newton's theory of gravity to Einstein's theory of space curvature.

Now go back to your mixing board and mix to your hearts content knowing that everything you do and know is relegated to obsolescence. Have fun in what you do, but realize that, in the future, your expertise is going to be considered the horse and buggy of the audio industry.

If you want respect, you have to give respect. These "old" guys here probably have been listening and judging audio, longer than you've been alive. We may all have different opinions, but that's because, we have different tastes and because the standard of "Live" has not been achieved.

My suggestion to you is to find someone like minded (like yourself) and tell them about this creaton that is on the audio board and spill your guts about how stupid and uninformed he is. It will make you feel better about yourself. Maybe that will put you in a better mood. I really don't mind.

[jjp735i]

To me this whole subject is just moot. Audio companies have made us some great equipment so that the everyday person can bring the theater into his home. I barely ever go to the theater anymore now that I can enjoy movies at home. I have a 120 inch screen I put up infront of the tv. Plug the projector into the hdmi and I'm set.

And if the studios were that concerned about movie sound tracks why don't they monitor the theaters that play them. When I do go to the theater it's usually to loud and I don't notice that much difference in effects then I do on my home system. They have been opening some nice theaters here in the Pittsburgh area, but like I said from one movie to the next the sound can change depending who as there fingers on the volume control.

I started showing movies outside this year on a 144" screen and everyone that shows up always enjoys it and I still get the wow factor when I watch a movie outside and I'm only running 2 channel simulated surround. So studios can mix and mix away all they want, it's not meaning that much to the average Joe.

My point is if you like your presence speakers then use them, I do and I love them. Doesn't matter if someone states they change the sound. If it sounds better to you then that is all that matters.

Just my 2 cents.

[StevenSurprenant]

To me this whole subject is just moot. Audio companies have made us some great equipment so that the everyday person can bring the theater into his home. I barely ever go to the theater anymore now that I can enjoy movies at home. I have a 120 inch screen I put up infront of the tv. Plug the projector into the hdmi and I'm set.

And if the studios were that concerned about movie sound tracks why don't they monitor the theaters that play them. When I do go to the theater it's usually to loud and I don't notice that much difference in effects then I do on my home system. They have been opening some nice theaters here in the Pittsburgh area, but like I said from one movie to the next the sound can change depending who as there fingers on the volume control.

I started showing movies outside this year on a 144" screen and everyone that shows up always enjoys it and I still get the wow factor when I watch a movie outside and I'm only running 2 channel simulated surround. So studios can mix and mix away all they want, it's not meaning that much to the average Joe.

My point is if you like your presence speakers then use them, I do and I love them. Doesn't matter if someone states they change the sound. If it sounds better to you then that is all that matters.

Just my 2 cents.

I agree with you totally. Movie Theaters are way too loud and I quit going myself. I know many people who quit going for the same reason.

As for home theaters, I like them better than commercial theaters for a number of reasons. In some ways, home theaters sound better to me.

Your outside theater reminds me of when I was in the army overseas. We had an outside theater. The seats were just canvas draped on a frame. It was great! You're a lucky guy to have this. When the weather is right, it must be like a slice of heaven. You just might become the most popular guy in town once the word gets out.

Thanks for the support.

I did find that running the added DSP info through separate speakers sounded better than through the mains.

[GMichael]

Dang! I ran out of popcorn and beer. Where is LJ when you need him?

[Hyfi]

Dang! I ran out of popcorn and beer. Where is LJ when you need him?

Hey, disagree or move along.

[GMichael]

Hey, disagree or move along.

You are wrong!

And you have the brains of a flee in heat.

[Hyfi]

You are wrong!

And you have the brains of a flee in heat.

At least I can still be in heat

By the way, is a flea not in heat smarter or dumber than one in heat? Just looking for that reference point.

[GMichael]

At least I can still be in heat

By the way, is a flea not in heat smarter or dumber than one in heat? Just looking for that reference point.

All I know is that my body only has enough blood to run one head at a time.
But I still like HT either way.
Now, did'ja bring any popcorn?

[L.J.]

Dang! I ran out of popcorn and beer. Where is LJ when you need him?

Man I wish presence speakers was one of my biggest concerns in life right now....but ummm, yeah popcorn does sound good

[StevenSurprenant]

Here's your popcorn...

Mad TV John Madden Popcorn Popper - YouTube

[GMichael]

Man I wish presence speakers was one of my biggest concerns in life right now....but ummm, yeah popcorn does sound good

I don't think I like the tone of your post sir. Are there problems on the home front?