And the pre/pro goes POP!

[Mr Peabody]

Who even sells Sherwood these days? Some one was telling me about them having a $69.00 receiver at Best Buy. This type of thing would make it hard to take serious a $1,800.00 preamp. I know other manufacturer's have a foot in both ends of the market but Sherwood has always been having to stretch to even be entry level. I have not kept up with what happened with them after they added the name Newcastle to the end or even what that means. Actually, is Newcastle anybody? I mean I haven't seen any models of gear in the discussions of cherished units, or anything. I have to wonder if they will be significant at all. And, I hope NF was talking about an old model when he mentioned not having HDMI. Any preamp without HDMI is dead in the water before it hits, especially one costing $1,800.00.

[pixelthis]

Who even sells Sherwood these days? Some one was telling me about them having a $69.00 receiver at Best Buy. This type of thing would make it hard to take serious a $1,800.00 preamp. I know other manufacturer's have a foot in both ends of the market but Sherwood has always been having to stretch to even be entry level. I have not kept up with what happened with them after they added the name Newcastle to the end or even what that means. Actually, is Newcastle anybody? I mean I haven't seen any models of gear in the discussions of cherished units, or anything. I have to wonder if they will be significant at all. And, I hope NF was talking about an old model when he mentioned not having HDMI. Any preamp without HDMI is dead in the water before it hits, especially one costing $1,800.00.

Sherwood came out with a nifty pre-pro for 900 bucks a few years back, and I have never read a bad review on them, they are quality at beer prices, suposedly.
AND he is talking about the "old" model, see the link for outlaws current "flagship"
(on sale for 699!).
OF COURSE YOU will be able to trade it in for a "new" model.
In one of the biggest examples of bad timing outlaw came out with their flagship,
intending for it to last several years.
Only thing...it had DVI!
It dropped right before HDMI took off.
So even tho well reviewed it looks a bit dated, with its DVI plugs on the back.
Sure you can use an adapter, but DVI wont transmit audio, and the world moved on.
Really a sad story.
http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/990_gallery3.html

[nightflier]

Pixel, I get the feeling you really don't like Outlaw. The fact is, no pre/pro is going to have all the features everybody wants - we always have to compromise something. DVI was a big compromise, but the rest of its features were pretty stellar, so for many of us, we bought in anyways.

Regarding the Sherwood-Newcastle, I need to make a small correction, their top-of-the-line component with Trinov will be a receiver, and not a pre/pro. It will still have the pre-outs, but it's pretty much a receiver. The model number is also different, it will be the P-972. Outlaw, on the other hand will not be making a receiver with Trinnov, and their pre/pro will have XLR inputs and outputs, in addition to several other smaller hardware/software differences, although the rumor is that the MM phono input has been eliminated.

Now onto some good news: my Outlaw came back late last night! I didn't get a chance to hook it up, but I'll do so as soon as I get a free moment between the diaper changes and the hustle-n-bustle of midweek evenings. I also ordered a wall-mount for the Plasma and that should arrive sometime soon.

[pixelthis]

Pixel, I get the feeling you really don't like Outlaw. The fact is, no pre/pro is going to have all the features everybody wants - we always have to compromise something. DVI was a big compromise, but the rest of its features were pretty stellar, so for many of us, we bought in anyways.

Regarding the Sherwood-Newcastle, I need to make a small correction, their top-of-the-line component with Trinov will be a receiver, and not a pre/pro. It will still have the pre-outs, but it's pretty much a receiver. The model number is also different, it will be the P-972. Outlaw, on the other hand will not be making a receiver with Trinnov, and their pre/pro will have XLR inputs and outputs, in addition to several other smaller hardware/software differences, although the rumor is that the MM phono input has been eliminated.

Now onto some good news: my Outlaw came back late last night! I didn't get a chance to hook it up, but I'll do so as soon as I get a free moment between the diaper changes and the hustle-n-bustle of midweek evenings. I also ordered a wall-mount for the Plasma and that should arrive sometime soon.

Now where did you get that impression?
I preferred them to the emotiva in that thread, and I spend a lot of time at their site.
ACTUALLY I am a "fan", but probably wont be buying soon.
This is not a fault of their products, I try never to buy online for one simple reason.
Mainly I dont want to get into the same boat you just climbed out of.
I have no "spare" to cover me when something blows.
However there are several locals who will loan me one while they do repairs.
In other words I CANT LIVE WITHOUT MY GEAR for too long.
A speaker goes out, I pull he backs to the front, the blu goes out I use the DVD player.
I need my tunes!
Although my Integra might take up "backup" duty someday.
I am a big fan of Sherwood also, BTW.
aS FOR THE 990, I have always been fascinated by the worst case of bad timing ever.
This is a beautiful design, simple and uncluttered, with this great big scrambled egg on its face.
What is even more interesting is that Outlaw has never acknowledged this, just whistled past the graveyard and hoped nobody would notice.

[nightflier]

I just got this from Outlaw (drats!):

"As part of our arrangement with Sherwood, their receiver will go into production first, and our processor will follow. The platform is almost complete, but as Sherwood's receiver requires additional time for some certifications due to the inclusion of an amplifier, the start of production for our Model 997 has been pushed back a bit. Thus, we're now looking at a ship date during the first quarter of 2009. We'll keep you posted as things move forward."

That means I'll be living with DVI for as far down the road as March 2009! Looks like Emotiva is back in the game....

Funny, my broker gave me the same time-frame for the stock market...

[kexodusc]

I just got this from Outlaw (drats!):

"As part of our arrangement with Sherwood, their receiver will go into production first, and our processor will follow. The platform is almost complete, but as Sherwood's receiver requires additional time for some certifications due to the inclusion of an amplifier, the start of production for our Model 997 has been pushed back a bit. Thus, we're now looking at a ship date during the first quarter of 2009. We'll keep you posted as things move forward."

That means I'll be living with DVI for as far down the road as March 2009! Looks like Emotiva is back in the game....

Funny, my broker gave me the same time-frame for the stock market...

Ugh...that's pretty much reducing my options. Doh.

[pixelthis]

I just got this from Outlaw (drats!):

"As part of our arrangement with Sherwood, their receiver will go into production first, and our processor will follow. The platform is almost complete, but as Sherwood's receiver requires additional time for some certifications due to the inclusion of an amplifier, the start of production for our Model 997 has been pushed back a bit. Thus, we're now looking at a ship date during the first quarter of 2009. We'll keep you posted as things move forward."

That means I'll be living with DVI for as far down the road as March 2009! Looks like Emotiva is back in the game....

Funny, my broker gave me the same time-frame for the stock market...

MIGHT be living with it a lot longer.
The credit markets are frozen over, banks are not lending at all.
Used to be you get the credit, show a letter to the OEM and get things started.
That is not happening now.
Also something called the Baltic dry index is almost down to zero.
Trust me, that is BAD.
What they told you was typical corporate flimflamery.
In other words a lie, trying to buy time.ASK SIR TALKY, its his livihood.
Poor Outlaw, can't buy a break, their last flagship was marred by outdated tech the day it hit the street, and their latest flagship might just sink under the weight of the coming depression.
OF COURSE THEY AREN'T ALONE, if you are used to frequent upgrades beter get used to the equipment you have , might not be anymore for awhile.
Either you wont be able to afford it, OR THEY WONT BE ABLE TO MAKE IT.

[pixelthis]

Think about what they told you.
THE RECEIVER IS GOING TO BE MADE FIRST, and it will take longer to certify or something like that.
So why not go ahead and make the pre-pro while they are waiting?
It doesnt have any amps.
SO ITS NOT EVEN A GOOD FAIRY TALE.
Everything is probably on hold, might be awhile, if ever before you get your new pre-pro.

[audio amateur]

Some encouraging thoughts you got there Pix. Keep 'em coming

[pixelthis]

Some encouraging thoughts you got there Pix. Keep 'em coming

I know its not a comforting thought, but our world is changing.
And from my time in Law enforcement I have learned to pick apart just about any lie,
just add logic.
And there is no logic to what outlaw said, none whatsoever.
Just corp hooey to keep the deposits for the new pre-pro and buy time while they try to figure something out.

[nightflier]

According to Outlaw, they have an agreement with Sherwood, that the receiver will be released first. So Until that is certified, they have to hold off on their pre/pro. That doesn't sound too conspiratorial to me. It was the same with the 990. Anyhow, that gives them time to correct any software errors and fix any issues that come up with the receiver version.

You can always choose to see the cup half-empty, Pix, but then you'll be a lot less happier for it.

[pixelthis]

According to Outlaw, they have an agreement with Sherwood, that the receiver will be released first. So Until that is certified, they have to hold off on their pre/pro. That doesn't sound too conspiratorial to me. It was the same with the 990. Anyhow, that gives them time to correct any software errors and fix any issues that come up with the receiver version.

You can always choose to see the cup half-empty, Pix, but then you'll be a lot less happier for it.

OH come on.
I AM AM OPTIMIST, throw me out the window of a tall building and when I get to the second floor I WILL say "so far so good".
But I have been in security/police work my whole life, and have learned that reality is
something you avoid at your own risk..
Maybe outlaw is on the level, maybe I am right.
Just doesnt seem to make sense to hold up the pre-pro when the receiver isnt ready.
Work for the govt for awhile, you will take everything you hear with a grain of salt also.
Putting out the receiver first isnt nessesary, just an agreement, if indeed what they are saying is true, so whats the harm in putting out a few pre-pros first?
If the form factor of the pre-pro is a receiver with no amps, and teh amps are whats being "certified" then churn out a few prepros FIRST, whats the harm, is all I am saying.

[nightflier]

Just doesnt seem to make sense to hold up the pre-pro when the receiver isnt ready. Work for the govt for awhile, you will take everything you hear with a grain of salt also. Putting out the receiver first isnt nessesary, just an agreement, if indeed what they are saying is true, so whats the harm in putting out a few pre-pros first?

It's not an issue of technology, but of contractual agreements. Sherwood will have the first crack at the market, it's in their contract. I presume that Outlaw is probably a much smaller player in this and therefore Sherwood has the priority agreement with the OEM.

Surely, working for the government, you've become intimately familiar with contracts...

By the way, the receiver is back and working like a charm.

[Mr Peabody]

That is, an odd agreement as Outlaw and Sherwood are two different brand names, as well preamps and receivers typically are bought by consumers with different mind sets of going about their systems construction. That would be like Marantz holding off on a preamp until Denon put out a new flagship receiver. I'm sure they have their reasons but it defies logic to me.

I know Outlaw gets a lot of good reviews, for what ever that's worth, but I really am suspect of how good they actually are if their affiliation with Sherwood is as tight as you all say. It must be tighter than just coming out of the same plant to make the type of agreement stated.

[pixelthis]

That is, an odd agreement as Outlaw and Sherwood are two different brand names, as well preamps and receivers typically are bought by consumers with different mind sets of going about their systems construction. That would be like Marantz holding off on a preamp until Denon put out a new flagship receiver. I'm sure they have their reasons but it defies logic to me.

I know Outlaw gets a lot of good reviews, for what ever that's worth, but I really am suspect of how good they actually are if their affiliation with Sherwood is as tight as you all say. It must be tighter than just coming out of the same plant to make the type of agreement stated.

Outlaws model is that of a virtual company, the entire company is a creation of marketing.
AND nothing wrong with that.
ATI, for instance, used to make their amps, dont know if they still do.
Outlaw will always need a "real" company to make their rebadged products.
I dont see your concern for Sherwood, MR P.
They are an established company that has been around for a long time, and have an outstanding rep. Their modius operandi is making "value brand" items that are packed with quality for their price, for the audiophile who cant afford better.
They don't advertise much, (at least in the states) and save money in places that dont compromise quality.
Look at Cambridge audio, their stuff is designed in England, goes to a Hong Kong office,
which gets the manufacturing done in China.
They dont hide this, even brag about it in a video on youtube.
SHERWOOD IS SIMILAR.

[pixelthis]

It's not an issue of technology, but of contractual agreements. Sherwood will have the first crack at the market, it's in their contract. I presume that Outlaw is probably a much smaller player in this and therefore Sherwood has the priority agreement with the OEM.

Surely, working for the government, you've become intimately familiar with contracts...

By the way, the receiver is back and working like a charm.

GLAD TO HEAR IT.
And I am intimately familar with "contracts", and know they are worth the paper they are printed on.
The paper money is printed on is worth a LOT more.

[kexodusc]

On the whole Sherwood/Outlaw receiver thing...

Many of the manufacturing business I've visited usually uses the same facility to produce a variety of items. Manufacturing 101 - it can take months to modify the facility to produce something very similar but with a few minor changes to the finished product. Timing when to take those delays, and which products to produce first is just as important to the business as the design and quality of the product itself.

I see this as Sherwood throwing its weight. Receivers outsell pre-pros by what? 100:1 or more? Even Pix can see if they're going to delay anything it's going to be the pre-pros...they'll get their bread and butter product out there first to start recovering as much capital as they can at a time when they need it more than ever...you're not going to do that producing your tertiary products, you do that by finishing your best sellers.

Unfortunately since Sherwood is building this for them, Outlaw will have to piggy back on whatever production runs Sherwood is ready for. In this case, that means receiver first. Which probably helps Outlaw too, I'm guessing they sell a pile of receivers themselves.

No conspiracy at all...just basic strategy.

[nightflier]

Actually, Sherwood does not manufacture the receivers. Both the receivers and pre/pros are manufactured by an OEM, but since Sherwood has a much larger distribution, Outlaw has to wait their turn.

On the plus side, this puts the responsibility on Sherwood to be the guinea pig and work out all the software bugs, while Outlaw can then incorporate all the fixes in it's first run.

[Mr Peabody]

There Kex goes making sense again.

Pix, don't even compare Sherwood to Cambridge. Sherwood is for those who used to buy their stereo from department stores, like Pennies. Sherwood don't have any rep! Except for being the cheapest product on the block. Like i said I don't even know anyone who carries them. I'll have to do a search, I'm curious now to see where they are at. And, I certainly wouldn't mention Sherwood and audiophile in the same sentence. That's like saying the Huns were great humanitarians.

[pixelthis]

There Kex goes making sense again.

Pix, don't even compare Sherwood to Cambridge. Sherwood is for those who used to buy their stereo from department stores, like Pennies. Sherwood don't have any rep! Except for being the cheapest product on the block. Like i said I don't even know anyone who carries them. I'll have to do a search, I'm curious now to see where they are at. And, I certainly wouldn't mention Sherwood and audiophile in the same sentence. That's like saying the Huns were great humanitarians.

oh please brother!
Sherwood does have a "rep" and a darn tootin good one, fact that you dont know about it doesnt make it so.
AND I wasnt comparing SHERWOOD PRODUCTS WITH cambridge products, I was
comparing production techniques, both of which are similar.
As for being "audiophile" I wouldnt think of most of the stuff out there as "audiophile",
including most receivers.
Audiophile is a rather high standard, two channel, highest q circuit paths, discrete
componets, etc. But lets not get into that!!!
Basically the "receiver" in this case is the prepro with receiver type (cheap) amps crammed in. Since the amps are what needs to be "certified"(whatever that means)
and the pre-pro doesnt need any, just doesnt make sense to hold them up.
Instead the OEM is going to have downtime waiting for the "certification" so they can start making gear, when they could be making gear while they "wait" for teh so called "certification".
ALL I AM SAYING.

[Mr Peabody]

Thanks for back tracking Pix. Your idea of a "good rep" and mine but obviously be different.

Sherwood 4103 stereo receiver 210x2 wpc with a MSRP of $148.00, need I say more.

Manufacturers sometimes try to change their market strategy but if Sherwood wants respect they have a long way to go. If they can get a receiver THX certified good for them but there's a lot of competition and for a brand like Sherwood to gain respect and market share they are going to have to do something big.

You can find Sherwood sold online by Amazon & Needledoctor, I'm sure other but I don't find too many B&M stores. Also, the online reviews are sparse, I have to wonder how many units Sherwood even sell. If you can find any good info I'd be interested in seeing it.

[nightflier]

Well not to muddy the waters, but there are some positive preliminary reports about the CES-announced Sherwood-Newcastle R-972 Receiver:

http://www.audioholics.com/news/trad...i-1-3-receiver

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...ke-winner.html

http://www.slipperybrick.com/2008/01...p-av-receiver/

http://blogs.zdnet.com/home-theater/?p=144

http://www.electronichouse.com/slide...egory/3089/553

http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messag...81/522538.html

[Mr Peabody]

CES? What's that? Man, I forgot about it. I'm used to there being some what of a buzz this time of year. I hope others bring in some more news. Thanks, NF

That Trinnov sounds unreal. I'll reserve opinions until I hear it or see more actual listening reviews. I remember way back when Yamaha sprung their DSP on the world proclaiming to bring the concert venue into the listening room. Not quite, but good try. It's also hard to think $13k of technology can be tucked into a $1800.00 receiver. On the flip I don't hear many people happy with the room EQ systems on receivers and processors today, so if Sherwood can get in there and mix it up, good for them.

[pixelthis]

Thanks for back tracking Pix. Your idea of a "good rep" and mine but obviously be different.

Sherwood 4103 stereo receiver 210x2 wpc with a MSRP of $148.00, need I say more.

Manufacturers sometimes try to change their market strategy but if Sherwood wants respect they have a long way to go. If they can get a receiver THX certified good for them but there's a lot of competition and for a brand like Sherwood to gain respect and market share they are going to have to do something big.

You can find Sherwood sold online by Amazon & Needledoctor, I'm sure other but I don't find too many B&M stores. Also, the online reviews are sparse, I have to wonder how many units Sherwood even sell. If you can find any good info I'd be interested in seeing it.

ONKYO has a 606 receiver that sells for 299$.
Sherwood has been doing HI-FI stuff for years.
Just because YOU HAVENT HEARD OF IT......

[Mr Peabody]

I know Sherwood has been putting out product for years but "hi fi" is debateable. Over those years Sherwood's main competition was brands like Emerson.