And the pre/pro goes POP!

[nightflier]

We were in the middle of watching a movie last night when suddenly we heard a loud pop after which all five of my speakers' tweeters were buzzing and not producing any more sound. The subwoofers were also not producing any more sound. After the requisite fit and cursing episode, I cleared everyone out of the room, calmed down and started to check everything. I swapped out components one by one and found to my (fortunate) surprise that my speakers were fine, the subs were also fine, and that even the amp was fine.

What was not fine was the Outlaw 970 pre/pro. It now distorts horribly when the volume reaches even normal listening levels (lower than a my voice when speaking) or the frequency goes lower than mid-bass or higher than mid-treble. I tried it with several different speakers with the same results in both 2-channel and surround formats. I also fiddled with the OSD settings and everything else I could think of, but it's still jacked up.

When the pop occurred, we were watching a low-key comedy (with no excessively loud or sudden sounds) and we were playing the system at a rather low volume because the kids were asleep. The pop however, mostly heard in the subs, scared the bejeesus out of everyone. It shook the floor and sounded like a car crashed into the house behind us - it was incredibly loud. The buzzing of the tweeters came on instantly afterward and continued even when I swapped amps and repeated on-/offs, until I swapped out the pre/pro with a 2-channel preamp. I think what saved the speakers was that I had set them to small at 60Hz cross-over (I usually run them as large). Of course my subs took the biggest hit, but I think they are still OK. I'll check them on my 2-channel system when I have more time.

Now I've logged a trouble ticket with Outlaw, and I'm still under the warranty I think, so I'll be sending that sucker back, but what do you think?

[Mr Peabody]

That's a bummer. No idea what it could have been. Did you smell smoke? Did the system have plenty of ventilation, notice assessive heat?

Hey, still got my 31.7 for sale.

[pixelthis]

JUST a wildass guess pulled outta my wildass guess bag, but a capacitor might have discharged after shorting out.
Even if it didnt hurt anything else, it being bad (if it was in the direct audio chain) would screw up the response curve something
awful.
When a Cap goes bad it can sometimes make a huge sound, depends on where it is in the processing chain.
This is from it discharging all at once.
CAPS are still a weak link in reliability, the insulator and foil can go anytime.
Sorry, heres something to make you feel better

[kexodusc]

Yeah, odds are it was a cap popping. I had a similar experience with a Harman Kardon integrated amp and it was a cap - thing melted onto the PCB and made a mess inside.

There's a lot of caps in a processor, and even a 99.9% reliability rating exposes equipment to some risk.

Sorry to ear about your frustration - the real test will be to see how Outlaw responds. I've heard nothing but good things about their support so I'm sure you'll be looked after.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I NEVER like reading stories like this. I would've been shaking with fear, biting my fingernails off, creating a hangman's noose if something like that happened to me. I hope everything's okay and that Outlaw makes good with you.

[pixelthis]

I NEVER like reading stories like this. I would've been shaking with fear, biting my fingernails off, creating a hangman's noose if something like that happened to me. I hope everything's okay and that Outlaw makes good with you.

This is why I stick to more stable video display formats like LCD
instead of less stable ones like plasma and dlp.
The best "picture quality" is HAVING A PICTURE.
Its also why I go for quality when buying stuff like amps, procs, etc.
The loss of a major componet can be devastating to those who use their gear on a regular basis, especially when you dont have "backup".
You should be "scared" rich, that chinese amp of yours has no
track record, even tho you do have a "backup".
On the bright side a busted cap is usually cheap to fix, my Yamaha
cost 58 bucks to repair.

[Worf101]

But look on the bright side, the damage was "limited". The vast majority of your system is still usable and you didn't kill any of the family in a fit of wild rage... other than that.... But like Tex, I HATE hearing stories like this. They happen, but I wish they didn't. Hope the company comes through.

Da Worfster

[GMichael]

Have you taken it apart yet? Caps are not that hard to replace if that is the problem. They should have part numbers on them that you can get from Digi-Key or like supplier.
Our techs repaired our CEO's M&K receiver a few months back. I found the caps for about $3.00 each, so he replaced all of them.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I'm a tech! Send it to me. I'll fix it!

[Rich-n-Texas]

This is why I stick to more stable video display formats like LCD
instead of less stable ones like plasma and dlp.
The best "picture quality" is HAVING A PICTURE.
Its also why I go for quality when buying stuff like amps, procs, etc.
The loss of a major componet can be devastating to those who use their gear on a regular basis, especially when you dont have "backup".
You should be "scared" rich, that chinese amp of yours has no
track record, even tho you do have a "backup".
On the bright side a busted cap is usually cheap to fix, my Yamaha
cost 58 bucks to repair.

WHAT A BONEHEAD!!!

[charlie_a]

From my experience at circuit class.

We've had numerous 1 uF caps blown from misuse from students that sounds like a little pop gun going off.
I imagine stereos to have bigger caps than that. hence the louder noise

The voltage potential between the terminals of the capacitor could have exceeded the dielectric breakdown voltage causing the capacitor to blow.

You can identify the problem if you can open the unit, and see a capacitor inflated in size with dielectric material oozing out of it. It will be discolored and inflated in size and irregular looking (looks fuc*ed).

Sometimes when capacitors blow, the top of the cap also blows clear off the body. Mostly tubular ceramic with whichever dielectric material was in it.

Perhapse shake the unit gently to see if you can hear a piece inside shaking around.

3rd though, capacitor can also be used as a low pass filter or high pass filter. but i wouldn't imagine the cap to be used as a filter to be very big, so wouldn't be that loud as you described
But i don't know the jest of how an audio system works inside. wether it amplifies the signal then sends through cap, or it is small signal going through amp.

my 1 cent.

hope the company takes care of you good.

cheers

[pixelthis]

WHAT A BONEHEAD!!!

Not enough of a "bonehead" to send anything to YOU to be "fixed".
Even if you were honestly trying to "fix" it can you expect a carpetbagger to return it?
Not that you could fix it, when you couldnt even program a harmony
remote, and I have NEVER been bonehead enough to try driving B&W
speakers with a friggin HTIB.
and YOU call ME a "bonehead. THATS RICH.
(it really is)

[pixelthis]

From my experience at circuit class.

We've had numerous 1 uF caps blown from misuse from students that sounds like a little pop gun going off.
I imagine stereos to have bigger caps than that. hence the louder noise

The voltage potential between the terminals of the capacitor could have exceeded the dielectric breakdown voltage causing the capacitor to blow.

You can identify the problem if you can open the unit, and see a capacitor inflated in size with dielectric material oozing out of it. It will be discolored and inflated in size and irregular looking (looks fuc*ed).

Sometimes when capacitors blow, the top of the cap also blows clear off the body. Mostly tubular ceramic with whichever dielectric material was in it.

Perhapse shake the unit gently to see if you can hear a piece inside shaking around.

3rd though, capacitor can also be used as a low pass filter or high pass filter. but i wouldn't imagine the cap to be used as a filter to be very big, so wouldn't be that loud as you described
But i don't know the jest of how an audio system works inside. wether it amplifies the signal then sends through cap, or it is small signal going through amp.

my 1 cent.

hope the company takes care of you good.

cheers

You misunderstand.
We are not talking about a physical POP but a loud sound coming through the speakers.
If a CAP shorted it would discharge, this would translate into a kinghell
NOISE in some (BUT not all) cases.
YES in class we thought it would be "fun" to reverse polarity on a can cap, play NASA and all.
AND when it went through the supension ceiling like it was not even there, and scared the CRAP outta the girls in sewing class, it was almost worth having to pick up EVERY piece of paper dielectric.
ALMOST.

[pixelthis]

OR maybe I misunderstand.
If it was a "pop" that didnt come from teh speakers then it was almost certainly a CAP.

[GMichael]

Not enough of a "bonehead" to send anything to YOU to be "fixed".
Even if you were honestly trying to "fix" it can you expect a carpetbagger to return it?
Not that you could fix it, when you couldnt even program a harmony
remote, and I have NEVER been bonehead enough to try driving B&W
speakers with a friggin HTIB.
and YOU call ME a "bonehead. THATS RICH.
(it really is)

My dad was the top EE at a power house. He could take anything apart and fix it. But he still can't program his cell phone. One doesn't seem to have anything to do with the other. Maybe Rich is just too old to learn new tricks.

Sorry Rich. heh heh heh.
Don't hate me for being funny.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I couldn't figure out the part about driving my speakers with an HTiB. Don't HTiB's come with speakers? But yeah, if I could get my hands on an Outlaw amp and it could be fixed, it would probably manage to get "lost in transit".

That's reminds me though... I do have some questions about setting up some 880 remote functions. HEY L.J.!

[charlie_a]

You misunderstand.
W
YES in class we thought it would be "fun" to reverse polarity on a can cap, play NASA and all.
AND when it went through the supension ceiling like it was not even there, and scared the CRAP outta the girls in sewing class, it was almost worth having to pick up EVERY piece of paper dielectric.
ALMOST.

Funny thing with the snapple Crackle PoP in my class is that it's the same
person doing it.

He's a sure thing. As sure as i'm going to not win the lottery from not playing it.

[charlie_a]

off topic.
Why is it that the more i research on a HT system, the more my "limit" on my "tight" budget to spend on the system keeps RISING!@#$ frustrating reading about the beautiful sounds of expensive system and not being able to afford it, or go in big debt for it.

predicament.

[pixelthis]

off topic.
Why is it that the more i research on a HT system, the more my "limit" on my "tight" budget to spend on the system keeps RISING!@#$ frustrating reading about the beautiful sounds of expensive system and not being able to afford it, or go in big debt for it.

predicament.

OH you big silly you!
There is a process called "bootstraping", you start out with a really nice part of a system (I prefer you start with speakers) and add
an upgrade as you go along.
Its also called an "upgrade path".
SPEAKERS ARE LONG LIVED, so start with those.
YOU CAN GET an inexpensive DD receiver to power them, just make sure it has multichannel outs.
Then a Blu player for DVD Blu-ray, and CD and you are done.
AS soon as you can afford, get a decent receiver, one with pre outs.
Then along the way get an amp.
When you have a few extra bucks get a new cable here and there.
When you get a new pair of fronts, shift the old fronts to the back,
shift teh old center to the rear back when you get a new one.
I could never have afforded all of my gear at once.
EVEN tho a tad old(my try at upgrade speakers was a disaster) my current speakers still look and sound great.
I have a new monitor, a BLU PLAYER, and an upgraded receiver ,
or amp to power my current one, is next.
My BLU PLAYER OUTPUTS MULTICHANNEL sound so I get LPCM
and my older receiver still works fine.
AND that is "how" you get a state of the art HT system, one bit at a time.

[pixelthis]

My dad was the top EE at a power house. He could take anything apart and fix it. But he still can't program his cell phone. One doesn't seem to have anything to do with the other. Maybe Rich is just too old to learn new tricks.

Sorry Rich. heh heh heh.
Don't hate me for being funny.

Which is probably true, too bad he doesnt know any old tricks

REASON RICH LEFT JERSEY...

[nightflier]

We are not talking about a physical POP but a loud sound coming through the speakers. If a CAP shorted it would discharge, this would translate into a kinghell
NOISE in some (BUT not all) cases.

The pop was definitely in the speakers, mostly the subs, and I heard nothing inside the receiver. Aside from finding out how much these can shake the house, this has been pathetic story so far.

I contacted Outlaw the same day I posted here and they responded with "needing detailed invoice info" which is code for "I sure hope that sucker is now out of warranty, bucko." But it isn't, it's actually well within the warranty, so I expect them to take it back and repair it. Of course I'll be paying for shipping to them, so it's not like this is going to be painless to me.

Regarding opening it up and taking a peek inside, I really don't want to do that because that would void the warranty. I remember when I removed the cover from my previous Outlaw amp there was a light tear sound. When I turned the cover over I noticed that a small sticker on the inside of that %^$#&@ cover tore off and there was no way to put it back w/o making it obvious I had pulled it off. So I really don't want Outlaw to come back and pull one of those "hmmmyeah, wellll, you know that Warranty Void If Removed notice on the back of your unit?..." So, no it's going back in the same way it came.

This of course, does not help me much because I certainly would like to know if the main circuit board has a big melt or burn mark on it - in which case they really should replace it rather than "repair at their discretion." But Outlaw service has always been good; I've owned a lot of Outlaw gear over the years and can say that they've been very good to me, albeit slow, sometimes taking a few days to respond. They are also on the East coast in MA so you have to get up early in the morning here on the West coast if you want to be able to respond more than once per day. BTW, they are not in Texas as the Outlaw designation and the Rodeo Cowboy logo would have one believe. Other than that they've been very helpful.

This situation does mar my plans somewhat as I was actually looking to sell the pre/pro and purchase their new HDMI one that's coming out next month, but now I'm not sure I can. I'm sure they'll repair it, but I don't want to sell a repaired unit to some poor guy down the road. And selling a "repaired" unit isn't going to get me a decent down payment on that new one, and this year's family upgrade bandwaggon is going to be traveling a tad lighter than usual.

By the way, I'm currently running the system with a B&K stereo preamp and a manual component video switcher (which fuzzes the screen when I switch - probably not a good thing either). So no surround sound for the near future, and worst of all, dialog is a pain to hear w/o a center channel. Things do sound pretty good for stereo music, though - I guess when you're always listening to sound in some surround mode, you forget how good stereo can sound. It's not anywhere near the quality of my 2-channel setup, but it's pretty good.

And worst of all, I've got Bourne Ultimatum, Apocalypto, and Blood Diamond burning a hole through my side-table. I just can't watch these w/o surround sound - that would be sacriligeous.

[Mr Peabody]

Did Outlaw post a price for the new HDMI pre/pro?

[Wits]

OH you big silly you!
There is a process called "bootstraping", you start out with a really nice part of a system (I prefer you start with speakers) and add
an upgrade as you go along.
Its also called an "upgrade path".

I couldn't find any word "bootstraping" in the dictionary, so I assumed you just made another one of your usual misspellings and meant "bootstrapping". What was even more puzzling to me, though, was when I read the definition of bootstrapping. Merriam-Webster online http://www.m-w.com lists bootstrapping as a transitive verb that means "to promote or develop by initiative and effort with little or no assistance". Or, to paraphrase, if one were to pull ones' self up by ones' own bootstraps, that person helped his or her self accomplish a certain task or goal.

I see nothing relevant to an upgrade path, or, frankly, your point.

[pixelthis]

I couldn't find any word "bootstraping" in the dictionary, so I assumed you just made another one of your usual misspellings and meant "bootstrapping". What was even more puzzling to me, though, was when I read the definition of bootstrapping. Merriam-Webster online http://www.m-w.com lists bootstrapping as a transitive verb that means "to promote or develop by initiative and effort with little or no assistance". Or, to paraphrase, if one were to pull ones' self up by ones' own bootstraps, that person helped his or her self accomplish a certain task or goal.

I see nothing relevant to an upgrade path, or, frankly, your point.

YOUR LOSS.
"Bootstrapping" (however you spell it) is a tried and true way to have your cake and eat it too, you get gear you enjoy while saving up for the next improvement.
This process is not something I made up either, it has been a subject of countless articles over the years, and talk about which "upgrade path" to take has been a subject of some discusion.
Indeed, unless you throw out EVERYTHING when you buy something new , this is really the only way to go.

[nightflier]

The expected price for the new Outlaw will be $1499, with introductory prices probably around $1399 for pre-orders. Then there's Outlaw's customer loyalty program which offers a rebate of $200. So if I could have sold the previous 970 pre/pro for $400-ish (?), then my net cost would have been $799 (+ shipping, but no tax since I'm out-of-state). And that's for a pre/pro that's supposed to give the NAD & Onkyo ones a run for the money.

Of course, then there's Emotiva, which is expected to come in a bit lower in price. Anyone know when their new pre/pro is due to be out? I would love to see a comparison between it and the Outlaw before I take the plunge, but then I may loose out on the introductory price.