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  1. #1
    ride a jet ski Tarheel_'s Avatar
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    Pioneer VSX-1016TXV-K review (long)

    I recently decided to upgrade my 2003 model HKardon AVR-525 (retail $1200). After alot of online shopping and advise from this board i decided on the Pioneer VSX-1016TXV-K. Purchased the unit new from Vanns.com for $409 shipped.

    Although, i've only put about 40-50 hours on it, i have mixed results/feelings on this receiver and wanted to post them in case some others are considering this model.

    First off, it's heavy. One of the main reasons i chose this model is based on weight. It tips the scales at 33 lbs and on the back strain scale it seems accurate.

    Since my HK had an older auto-calibration system that never delievered the goods, i was excited to use the MCACC on the Pioneer. Simply place the supplied mic in your favorite listening spot, press a few buttons and leave the room. The sound levels are loud. However, for some reason, the system does force you to acknowledge a menu, so you must return to the room, press a button and then exit.

    My HT is in an open basement with 2 walls of poured concrete and two phantom walls made of black sheets with a large rug on the floor. Dimensions are 14x24 with a 9' ceiling.The MCACC did a good job on sound pressure level, but set all my speakers to LARGE. Not true to my liking, i changed this because i use a 7.1 setup with 4 rear bookshelf speakers (Infinity Primus 150). I do have the FL and FR full range speakers (Revel Performa F30s) and a good size center (Revel Performa M20). I usually set the fronts to LARGE and center to SMALL. For the most part though, i liked the calibration with only minor tweaks.

    The remote does not have a backlight, but is laid out well and easy to use in the dark. The remote worked great even at 20 feet away and blew away the HK remote in feel and range. There is also a small window that states which mode your in.
    I did miss the direct buttons for each surround group like DTS, DD, THX. On the Pioneer, you must scroll through a menu that includes DD and DTS, while there is a separate button for THX and their own surrond modes.

    Audio performance is tough to explain. On movies, the sound is loud and the amp supplies plenty of juice. It's rated at 110 watts, but didn't seem to have more power than the 65 watt HK receiver (44 lbs). Both did a great job on movies using either coxial or optiocal cables from a Pioneer DV-563 DVD player.

    On audio performance....this was honestly a let down for me. The moment everything was up and running I noticed a slight 'harsh' cold type sound. I attributed this to it being a new receiver and i was accustomed to the HK sound. Pioneer changed the amp setup in this receiver and i stole this from their site, "ultra-efficient Advanced Direct Energy Amplifier design results in extremely low energy loss, so you can play it loud and still enjoy superior sound quality. "
    While the AVR will play loud, it doesn't sound as warm or detailed as the HK did. Granted, the Revels are very revealing speakers, but the whole surround setup sounds harsh. I played DVDs, XM radio through Directv and a handful of CDs. All sound inferior to the HK.
    I can only hope the amp will 'break in' and develop a sound i can enjoy. The return policy is not favorible now. So, the sound will either improve or i'll purchase a separate amp.

    I didn't discuss HDMI, etc. All video connections worked great and overall it's a great receiver, but if you have revealing speakers..you may want to demo this first or find someplace with a great return policy (brick and mortar).

    I know most will argue that most receivers sound so simliar you cannot hear a difference, but i'm here to tell you the sound from these two AVRs is not even close.

  2. #2
    Oldest join date recoveryone's Avatar
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    Good info Tarheel, I guess to each his own. I picked up the Elite VSX-81TX which the 1016TXV build after (the 80 line) I was just wondering about your comment about the DD/DTS buttons. Did you set it to auto so the AVR would select the signal based on the source? or were you refering to the DSP mode under each DD/DTS.......movie, drama, ..etc. And what you said about your speakers I think the MCACC did what it suppose to do. You have large fronts, but you perfer to have them set to small (thats a matter of perference) which it allows you to manually tweak the settings as you did.

    Now I may suggest you try a thing or two regarding the sound, play your music (CD.DVD-A, SACD) and set the 1016 to direct mode and see how it sounds that way you would be able to tell if its the DAC's in the 1016 are not to your liking.
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  3. #3
    ride a jet ski Tarheel_'s Avatar
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    recoveryone,
    to clarify a few things that i may not have made clear. The fronts were correct (LARGE), but the MCACC chose LARGE for my small bookshelf speakers. They cannnot go below 80hz.

    I did listen through the 'direct' mode, but i still hear the 'bright' slight harness on the sources. Wondering now if i listened long enough? Good suggestion, i will listen tonight for a longer period.

    the receiver does use the 'auto' mode and selects the correct format. I was referring to the DSP modes. The HK remote had one button for DD, DTS, Stereo, Logic7, etc.
    The Pioneer has it all right, except merging the PLII modes with the Neo:6 modes. Not a big deal, but i cannot see the receiver (behind a curtain) so if i change a mode, i never know which one.

    Also on that point: is there a way to display the sound mode of the 1016 via onscreen? The HK would display the mode like DTS NEO:6 Music, then the volume level on the TV screen. I can't find that feature and i liked it since it's hidden from view.

  4. #4
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    That is one receiver I have been considering. An HK AVR245, Onkyo 604, among others. I haven't heard the Pioneer yet. That's good info. Thanks.

  5. #5
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    This does not seem like an upgrade,I have not heard the Pioneer but I have heard the Harmon and it seemed very good.Why did you think you needed an upgrade and why did you think the Pioneer was better?

    bill

  6. #6
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Nice post, Tarheel.

    Every auto-setup/Eq feature I've ever seen is terribly inconsistent at determining Large or Small status for speakers. Too many room acoustic variables affect the sound that reaches the mic...then the program selects the best option overall.
    This is not unique among Pioneer, I've played with $4000+ Denons that do the exact same thing. Think it's just a necessary evil - accuracy diminishes below 100 Hz on those things.. I prefer to set it to small do the rest of the eq'ing manually.

    As for the cold/harsh sound - I'll toss that up to personal preference until i play with this one myself. I'm familiar with its predecessors and I wouldn't think there'd be huge changes but I could be wrong.

    I will say that of all the major brands in this price range (Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer etc), Harman Kardon's are the ONLY ones I feel have that "warm" sound to them that clearly sound different from the rest. If you prefer this sound, and it's what you're use to, I'm not surprise you have mixed feelings.

    I've said it many times, my personal preference is for the flat/neutral sound of the others. Because of this, don't like "warm" gear much at all. When I see live music, the sound is anything but warm....I like my speakers to measure flat past 20 KHz, not the common roll-off a lot of designers build in around 18 KHz or so....This could be as simple as the shape of my ears influencing the sound. Don't know, don't care. I know many people prefer the opposite.

    THe 1014 and 1015 were definitely trend setters though, I'd like to think Pioneer could keep it rolling with this one. Some of the other guys are pushing the prices of their 30 + lbs receivers to the $1000 range by adding all sorts of secondary features. Not a trend I'm happy to see.

  7. #7
    Oldest join date recoveryone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarheel_
    recoveryone,
    to clarify a few things that i may not have made clear. The fronts were correct (LARGE), but the MCACC chose LARGE for my small bookshelf speakers. They cannnot go below 80hz.

    I did listen through the 'direct' mode, but i still hear the 'bright' slight harness on the sources. Wondering now if i listened long enough? Good suggestion, i will listen tonight for a longer period.

    the receiver does use the 'auto' mode and selects the correct format. I was referring to the DSP modes. The HK remote had one button for DD, DTS, Stereo, Logic7, etc.
    The Pioneer has it all right, except merging the PLII modes with the Neo:6 modes. Not a big deal, but i cannot see the receiver (behind a curtain) so if i change a mode, i never know which one.

    Also on that point: is there a way to display the sound mode of the 1016 via onscreen? The HK would display the mode like DTS NEO:6 Music, then the volume level on the TV screen. I can't find that feature and i liked it since it's hidden from view.
    I have not seen that feature, only during the setup mode.
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  8. #8
    ride a jet ski Tarheel_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musicman1999
    This does not seem like an upgrade,I have not heard the Pioneer but I have heard the Harmon and it seemed very good.Why did you think you needed an upgrade and why did you think the Pioneer was better?

    bill
    musicman, i decided on an upgrade for a couple of reasons. First, my HK looses its memory and each time i went to the basement, i had to reconfigure the whole menu. After a year or so that got old. I also upgraded to a HD projector and HDMI connections became important. I choose this receiver because it was the best (on paper) for my budget.

    Kex, i hear you on 'warm'. This may be my cup-of-tea. I also enjoy neutral sounding speakers as well....But, even in digital DD/DTS mode I hear the sharpness/edgeness/forward sound... sounds like the treble is turned up (and yes, i checked that).
    I could be wrong here, but Pioneer changed their amp setup/config on the 1016. Much different approach than the 1014,1015. Anyone know more about this?

    I had a 2801 Denon receiver with these Revels and liked the sound (neutral). Also, had a huge NAD 218 stereo amp (200 per) and did not like it. I'm wondering if my speakers just mate well with certain equipment. Maybe after all these years, i can 'hear' the difference equipment can make. Thank goodness my wife understands this disease!

  9. #9
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    Hi Tarheel, Before the xmas holidays, my brother was thinking of getting a new receiver, one that would be more powerful then his Marantz 5400. It is very hard to test receivers in many stores with their unwired/miswired set-ups. In one Circuit City store, I was able to hear the 1016. I thought it was shrill. I was surprised at this considering the favorable reports on this and the previous 10l5 unit. Now I only heard the 1015 in stereo but it was a turnoff for me.

    Recoveryone's Elite 81 unit was another unit we got to hear in a Sound Advice. If I were buying a receiver, I would have made this #1 in my choice. Although I only heard it in stereo too, I heard the same music played over lower and uppity ended Yamaha's and Denons. This units sound quality reminded me of a McIntosh rather than a Pioneer. What I am saying here is that the 1016 does not appear to sound like a "clone" to the Elite models. Hopefully, with time allowing the receiver to break in, that your 1016 will play better. Wether that shrillness that I heard or the harsness you heard is in the pre-amp and/or amplfier stage is hard to know. So purchasing a separate power amp while using this as a pre-amp might not produce fruitful results, however if you end up going this route, be sure you can get your money back on the poweramp incase the pre-amp of the 1016 is not up to snuff.

  10. #10
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    Talking Turn off the equalizer perhaps

    On audio performance....this was honestly a let down for me. The moment everything was up and running I noticed a slight 'harsh' cold type sound. I attributed this to it being a new receiver and i was accustomed to the HK sound. Pioneer changed the amp setup in this receiver and i stole this from their site, "ultra-efficient Advanced Direct Energy Amplifier design results in extremely low energy loss, so you can play it loud and still enjoy superior sound quality. "
    While the AVR will play loud, it doesn't sound as warm or detailed as the HK did. Granted, the Revels are very revealing speakers, but the whole surround setup sounds harsh. I played DVDs, XM radio through Directv and a handful of CDs. All sound inferior to the HK.
    I can only hope the amp will 'break in' and develop a sound i can enjoy. The return policy is not favorible now. So, the sound will either improve or i'll purchase a separate amp.


    I have the 1016 connected to 8 separate amps and the harshness you speak of was quite evident. Till now I just could not think of what happened. I noticed it the other day and forgot that I left the equalizer on for all channels. I'm listening to the original Van Halen album right now. With the eq on it was a harsh mess. With it off it is much more bearable. It sounds awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The auto calibration was useless because the settings were so far off. It is always better to calibrate things yourself. In fact it sounds so good without the EQ that I may not even bother trying to figure out how to set it manually. Anyhow my favorite feature is the Dolby Pro Logic IIX mode for music CDs in 7.1 and I also like the fact that you can take 2 channel DVD-Audio and matrix process into 5.1 with a digital input. The 7.1 inputs and outputs are really important, too. Thanks for posting this or I might never have remembered what I did.

    P.S I take that back about the auto settings. I just tried them again and they seem to be pretty good. Go figure. Now listeing to Hootie and the Blowfishes Cracked Rear View.

  11. #11
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    Listening to DVD-Audio through a digital input and process it into 7.1,when you do this all you are hearing is a dolby digital signal.I don't think your reciever can decode by HDMI.So you are not hearing the high rez track.

    bill

  12. #12
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Good review. Sounds to me like the h/k and Pioneer have huge differences in how they process the signals. If you want to get at any differences in the amp sections themselves, you would need to switch off all of the equalization and DSP processing. As it is, from what you've described, you're observing differences that include how the two receivers handle their auto calibration routines.

    Speaking only for myself, my observations about comparable receivers sounding similar have only accounted for the direct modes and default settings. When you're talking about how receivers handle their auto calibration and signal processing, the differences are a lot more obvious and relevant.
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  13. #13
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    Smile It is still 24bit 96khz 2 channel PCM

    Quote Originally Posted by musicman1999
    Listening to DVD-Audio through a digital input and process it into 7.1,when you do this all you are hearing is a dolby digital signal.I don't think your reciever can decode by HDMI.So you are not hearing the high rez track.

    bill
    Just it is matrix processed/ Dolby Pro Logic II processed to pseudo 5.1. It works, but even so it is not quite as good as even the discrete recodings even in analog but it is fun to play with and you don't need a DVD Audio player to listen to it. A regular DVD player can do 2 channels 24bit 96khx sound over digital coax or optical/toslink connections.

  14. #14
    ride a jet ski Tarheel_'s Avatar
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    great comments....i will turn off the EQ. This is the first receiver i've owned that had this feature. Matter of fact, i'll turn off all settings and start over manually.

    i just keep thinking if the 'direct' mode doesn't sound good....it doesn't sound right.

    Does the EQ effect direct mode?

    wondering if this points back to the new amp design? Or my room/speakers just don't mate well.

    Kelsci has a good point. i never thought about the pre amp section may be the cause. Hate to buy an amp and have the same sound.

    if all else fails, anyone looking for a slightly used AVR? Only played on Sunday mornings with low miles? hahaha

  15. #15
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    I doubt you'll have any problems selling that unit.

    I may have missed it, but how do you have your audio sources connected? Analog or digital? I've found the direct modes on receivers don't do much for the digital inputs...begs the question how valuable the setting really is - guess it can't hurt.

    If the amp has changed for the worse that's a real shame - Pioneer's been the golden child for best value for a few years now at that level and feature set.

    Try running the eq a few times - I've said it before, those things are so sensitive to even the surface their mounted on that it's a very iterative process to achieve accuracy.

    Your room does sound like it would be very conducive to higher frequencies leading to harshness.

  16. #16
    ride a jet ski Tarheel_'s Avatar
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    i did find this in the manual....

    "if you switch on the midnight mode, loudness, dialog enchancement, the sound retriever or tone controls when DIRECT is selected, the receiver automatically switches to STEREO."
    "if you switch on Acoustic Calibration EQ when DIRECT is selected, the receiver automatically switches to STEREO."

    of course these were mentioned in the Note section above the page number in what looks like a font of 4.

    since i cannot view the front of the Pioneer, i think it is auto switching to stereo and i never get direct to stick. This could be part of my problem. I'll check that out. I assumed direct turned everything off. Guess each manf. is unique.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert-The-Rambler
    Just it is matrix processed/ Dolby Pro Logic II processed to pseudo 5.1. It works, but even so it is not quite as good as even the discrete recodings even in analog but it is fun to play with and you don't need a DVD Audio player to listen to it. A regular DVD player can do 2 channels 24bit 96khx sound over digital coax or optical/toslink connections.
    No Robert i am afraid all you are hearing is plain old Dolby Digital,not 24/96.Instead of adding Pro Logic just leave in DD mode,should sound better.

    bill

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    Talking I'm right. Here is how it works with my LG Upconverter DVD Player

    Quote Originally Posted by musicman1999
    No Robert i am afraid all you are hearing is plain old Dolby Digital,not 24/96.Instead of adding Pro Logic just leave in DD mode,should sound better.

    bill
    In the settings of the DVD player you have to set the frequency output to 96khz. Just kick on a DVD-Audio disc and you will see PCM96 +PLII Movie. Just select standard on your remote and you will switch to music mode so the processor is optimized for music. In 2 channel PCM 96khz mode the 1016 supports PLII Movie, Music, Game and regular Pro Logic mode. THX processing is not allowed to extend the soundstage to 7.1. It is not as good as discrete 5.1 but is certainly enjoyable especially if you do not have a DVD-Audio player. Just think how good CDs can sound with SRS or any other matrix processing and you will get the idea. I wonder what HD-DVDs might sound like with matrix processing. I think the Toshiba players automatically output in DTS no matter what you select over coax and toslink so it may be impossible to ever listen in two channel PCM mode if you have a DTS decoder in your receiver.. Trust me I know it is working. It is displayed by the receiver.

    The sound quality is substantially better if the DVD-Audio disc has a native 2 channel mix stored on the disc. It is a HUGE difference. I've been testing this with Fleetwood Mac's Rumors and the 2 channel 96khz PCM track sounds awesome over coax. If you listen to the 5.1 mix downconverted or whatever it is to 2 channel PCM is literally sounds like stuff is missing. It is still not bad. It is not the same experience at all as the true 2 channel PCM mix.. Can I get some company to release cheap 2 channel DVD audio discs at 24bit 96khz to replace my CDs. I don't need true 5.1 at all for music. I think that could be the way of the future.
    Last edited by Robert-The-Rambler; 01-20-2007 at 07:43 PM.

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    Sorry i am a 2 channel guy.I find that appling matrix processing to a cd is just awful,in my opinion anway.To each his own.
    I do believe that all dvd-audio discs have stereo mixes on them,at least the 2 that i own do.But you must use the analog connection as they are unable to output anything other than dolby digital through the coax link.If you are pulling a stereo mix it is DD 2.0.

    bill

  20. #20
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    Smile Hotel California in 2 channel 96khz

    Quote Originally Posted by musicman1999
    Sorry i am a 2 channel guy.I find that appling matrix processing to a cd is just awful,in my opinion anway.To each his own.
    I do believe that all dvd-audio discs have stereo mixes on them,at least the 2 that i own do.But you must use the analog connection as they are unable to output anything other than dolby digital through the coax link.If you are pulling a stereo mix it is DD 2.0.

    bill
    I'm listening to it right now. There aint much anything better than that!!!!!!! It is nice to have a "surround" format as an option. You can still listen in pure awesome 2 channel. HDMI is not that important for music at all.

    The 1016 is new. The LG player I have is brand new. That must have changed. I'm reading it right on the Pioneer. PCM 96. If you don't change the frequency output to 96khz it will be Dolby Digital. Just change it to 96khz and that is what you get.

    P.S Update. The actual 2 channel mix for Hotel California from the Eagles would not play at all in 96khz digitally and my DVD player CRASHED. I had to pull the plug to listen again in the default 5.1 mix in 2 channel PCM 96khz. I could not even turn the power off. How is that for copy protection? Maybe it is just a compatibility issue. Anyhow, even with the surround mix selected it sounds wonderful in 2 channel PCM matrix processed.
    Last edited by Robert-The-Rambler; 01-20-2007 at 08:23 PM.

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    To each his own.Hope theres nothing wrong with your player.

    bill

  22. #22
    ride a jet ski Tarheel_'s Avatar
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    Update

    last night i started over and calibrated it manually.

    Robert-the-Rambler nailed it....once i turned off the EQ, the sound cleared up big time. It was like a haze was lifted on the sound. What a difference.

    the sound is much more clear and detailed.

    i still can't claim it sounds as good as the former HK, but at least the sound is now enjoyable. It's definitly more neutral while the HK is more of a ''warm' sound.

    Based on my experience to this point, demoing AVRs is a must. I just assumed they sounded too much alike,but it seems each company has their own sound. That is good news to us HT lovers.

    thanks to all, this is a prime example to the benefit of these forums and why i've been around so long.

  23. #23
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    Hey that's great!!!
    HK isn't my cup of tea, but I do respect the gear. Your old receiver was a bigger, and much more expensive model - prices have come down a lot, but I still wouldn't be surprised if the Harman Kardon is just a higher quality unit throughout. My old HK stereo receiver was a beast of a machine for what it was.
    Now as a home theater/music combo unit, we could argue which is the better value, but that's moot - we'd have to look at the price of today's comparable HK model.
    I'm sure the VSX-1016 will raise a few eyebrows and make people ask what the extra $400-$500 is really getting them.

  24. #24
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    Good info before reading this i was considering buying the Pioneer VSX-1016TXV-K i saw for $498.97 on Parts express you say you got yours for 409 shipped sounds like greeeeat deal ill definently consider buying this unit. By the way were how old are your speakers i dont know too much about speakers but like you said i dont think your spakers bond weel.

  25. #25
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    Hashpot - I'm a big fan of Parts Express, but I know JandR (jr.com) will sell this unit considerably cheaper (with authorized warranty). Look up the website and call them up - they're known for giving better prices over the phone than on-line quite often. I saved an additional $100 off the lowest web price on my receiver a little over a year ago.

    Check around too, that's just one place I know of.

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