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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
Thanks Kex,
I might just muddle through with everyone's help here.
Yeah I agree with Kex. Once I started reading it, I got so much into it that I was done before I knew it. It's laid out step by step all the way.
I'm not even done calibrating yet and I've made huge improvements. I've been very lazy lately. Kinda been kicking back and just enjoying my setup lately. Listening to SACD, DVDA, watching movies...all that good stuff :)
Once I get off my butt and finish tweaking, I have another step up in SQ to look foward to.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
Thanks Kex,
I might just muddle through with everyone's help here.
Pffft...the stuff you've been helping me with is every bit as complicated if not more...piece of cake for ya!
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Let's have a bake sale! 50% of all profits go to the GM BFD fund! :thumbsup:
The rest go to ME!
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Thanks guys.
Tex, you've got a deal on that bake sale. I've been getting into baking the last couple of years. Even got good with that tart Bernd showed us how to make.
Did you see my comment on why I think your EQ is greyed out for the surrounds?
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Yes, and that's the same conclusion I reluctantly came to as well. I suppose it has to do with the way the surround back amp is connected in the bi-amp mode. Yamaha knows way better than I do so...
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I think it makes it user friendly. Why have to adjust two EQ's for one speaker, just because it's using two amps?
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Good point.
You'rs and L.J.'s talk about test CD's reminded me of something. When I subscribed to S&V magazine, I let them talk me into buying their "Home Theater Tune-up" test CD; I played around with the video setup but not the audio tests which I think include the test tones for individual frequencies, so I now have an excuse not to do yardwork today! :ihih:
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It's raining here. Maybe I should switch those video cables.
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Weak link
I spent some time this weekend repositioning my left & right surround speakers, adjusted the distances and levels and I'm resonably comfortable now that I can move past that tweak.
But here comes what I think I may have discovered about my receiver's ability to drive my speakers when all 6 channels are lit. I wanted to see if I had improved the imaging and overall sound quality in the room any so I loaded a Genesis multi-channel CD (A Trick of the Tail) and set it to play in Dolby Digital. There was some imaging improvement, even though I'm not done with room treatments, but the heartbreaker was, and I was warned about this (I think), when lower frequency instruments came into the field, the loudness (volume?) of Phil's voice became lower. The volume in general fluctuated and it was very noticeable. Is this what some of you were talking about when you mentioned the Yamaha will struggle to drive B&W's, and why I need a "high current" amp? Also, could the fact that I'm running about 40' of 12 gauge speaker to connect the left & right surrounds be contributing to this? When I changed the output to 2 channel stereo, all frequency elements of the songs sounded well balanced, but neither 2 channel "straight" mode nor "Pure Direct" mode eliminated the fluctuating volume output. Help?
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An external amp will help with that.
This one would be killer. http://www.emotiva.com/xpa5.html
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
An external amp will help with that.
What Mike said. I thought we talked 'bout this?
Has anyone actually heard the Emotiva?
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Well we did, but I've finally heard what the effect of a lack of "high current" sounds like up close and personal. I'm none too happy with what I heard over the weekend.
Don't know if anyone has heard Emotiva amps, I certainly haven't but GM's going to be offering discounts to the first what, 10 who purchase one?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
I spent some time this weekend repositioning my left & right surround speakers, adjusted the distances and levels and I'm resonably comfortable now that I can move past that tweak.
But here comes what I think I may have discovered about my receiver's ability to drive my speakers when all 6 channels are lit. I wanted to see if I had improved the imaging and overall sound quality in the room any so I loaded a Genesis multi-channel CD (A Trick of the Tail) and set it to play in Dolby Digital. There was some imaging improvement, even though I'm not done with room treatments, but the heartbreaker was, and I was warned about this (I think), when lower frequency instruments came into the field, the loudness (volume?) of Phil's voice became lower. The volume in general fluctuated and it was very noticeable. Is this what some of you were talking about when you mentioned the Yamaha will struggle to drive B&W's, and why I need a "high current" amp? Also, could the fact that I'm running about 40' of 12 gauge speaker to connect the left & right surrounds be contributing to this? When I changed the output to 2 channel stereo, all frequency elements of the songs sounded well balanced, but neither 2 channel "straight" mode nor "Pure Direct" mode eliminated the fluctuating volume output. Help?
Its the law of thermodynamics (the 2nd I beleive) that states
"There aint no such thing as a free lunch"
In the mid eighties I bought a 600 buck top of the line denon, after inflation thats about 1800-2400 bucks.
TWO CHANNELS AT 75 WPC
Now do you really think amp tech has advanced to the point that you can pack seven
channels of over 100 watts each into a small box?
TRUTH is for a lot of the speakers on sale now they will do fine, but for demanding
speakers , well, the one lung power supply that is driving all of them will begin to show its weaknesses.
Your system will do fine for movies and casual listening, for more discerning listening
you need a more stable amp with a more stable power supply.
The problem is that as a newbie you bought an exelent set of speakers, its just as a newbie you didnt know that B&W speakers are notorious power hogs that require nice amps.
This is why I told you you needed better when I first came to this board and
discovered your setup.
I have a similar if smaller problem, really. I bought my Integra brcause it was a "high current" design and while the damping factor, like most receivers, is pathetic,
at least it can hold its own at moderate vollume levels.
But like you I need MORE POWER.
BUT ITS HEARTENING to discover that you are growing in this hobby, and can tell
the shortcomings of certain pieces, which are harder to discern than the best parts sometimes.
And it goes to show that matching speakers to receivers (or amps) which gets paid little attention to these days, [I]isI] still very important.
You can do one of two things, get a better amp and make the yammy a prepro,
probably something like a lowline outlaw seven channel, or (gasp) sell the beemers,
get a more efficent speaker set.
One path will require more cash, one will probably get you to break even.
I wouldnt return the Yammy, it sounds like an exelent pro-pro, I would add amps
(unless theres something wrong with the yammy)
If you do return it, receivers known for their relative high current output are
1.) Harmon
2.) Integra or Onkyo
3.)Nad
4.)rotel.
And congrats on discovering [I]why] this hobby is so expensive (and frustrating) sometimes.
Congrats on moving up the food chain a peg .
OH, and get the ol checkbook out :1:
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Remote Control Use for the TV
Folks
I hope someone can help.
I can't get the remote for the RX-V3800. To turn on my TV. I have had no trouble programming it for my DVD and CD. But I just can't make it turn on the TV.
Here is what I have done (which may be wrong). Gone to page 107 of the manual and followed these steps;
1. Set the operation mode selector to
SOURCE and then press an input selector
button (1) to select the input area you want
to set up. in this case DTV/CBL
2 Press and hold LEARN for about 3
seconds using a ballpoint pen or similar
object.
3 Press ENTER.
The four-digit code set for the selected component
appears in the display window
4 Press the numeric buttons (6) to enter the
four-digit remote control code for the
component you want to use. (I have a Samsung TV and have tried all of the codes)
5 Press ENTER to set the number.
“OK” appears in the display window (B) on the
remote control if setting was successful. (and this is what happens)
6 Press LEARN again to exit from the setup
mode.
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Valuable input pix. And thanks for the encouragement. A couple of corrections are necessary. I didn't buy the B&W's, I inherited them when an audio development lab here at work was cleaned out. I learned through indirect comments here as well as input from you, Bert and a few others that my speakers were inefficient. As always, I appreciate everyone's input, advice and helpful criticism, and now that I know EXACTLY what is meant by a "one lung", or struggling amp section, and what the actual effects are, I can plot my next strategy. I guess I'm one of those who needs to hear it for myself before I can believe it. or before it finally sinks in.
Mr. Peabody and others have suggested from the beginning that I should go with separates, but the price for the small measure of future-proofing I wanted built in made that route cost prohibitive, simple as that. I got a great deal on the 3800, and no, I have no intention of returning it. Ain't gonna happen. A Rotel or Outlaw or maybe one of them Emotiva amps GM's pushing (waiting for word on the discount buddy) is in the future. Yes, my setup does just fine for movies and that's half the battle, so for everybody's benefit I'm not even going to talk about the next audio purchase until the time comes.
Now, about that PS3... :biggrin5:
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Sorry,
Don't mean to be an Emotiva pusher. They just seem to get great reviews and have great specs for their cost. (Now I feel like SVI). But the general idea of an external amp is sound. And if you do go with an Emotiva, I'll be able to pick your brain for a review.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burt_burto
Folks
I hope someone can help.
I can't get the remote for the RX-V3800. To turn on my TV. I have had no trouble programming it for my DVD and CD. But I just can't make it turn on the TV.
Here is what I have done (which may be wrong). Gone to page 107 of the manual and followed these steps;
1. Set the operation mode selector to
SOURCE and then press an input selector
button (1) to select the input area you want
to set up. in this case DTV/CBL
2 Press and hold LEARN for about 3
seconds using a ballpoint pen or similar
object.
3 Press ENTER.
The four-digit code set for the selected component
appears in the display window
4 Press the numeric buttons (6) to enter the
four-digit remote control code for the
component you want to use. (I have a Samsung TV and have tried all of the codes)
5 Press ENTER to set the number.
“OK” appears in the display window (B) on the
remote control if setting was successful. (and this is what happens)
6 Press LEARN again to exit from the setup
mode.
OKAY SON,
listen carefully, OK ?
Set the remote DOWN, and quietly walk away.
I am a universal remote "pusher".
This is because the single best improvement in your systen that you can make
is a universal remote.
Most OEM remotes are, to put it gently, CRAP.
the pressure to pack more and more into a receiver, for example, means that the remote
gets shortchanged, not to mention that a decent remote wouldn't be cost effective.
I PAID FIVE HUNDRED BUCKS FORE MY REMOTE five years ago, still have it,
havent even changed the rechargable battery, when theres a change I PLUG IT INTO MY COMPUTER AND update it to match my system.
You dont need to pay that much for a remote, a harmony or somesuch will probably suffice,
but beleive me, as a former yammy owner I can attest that their remotes SUCK,
are a cross between a medivial torture device and a leftover from the moon race.
Get a decent remote, save your sanity, before its too late :1:
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Rich, why not grab a decent 2 channel amp to power just the 804's? something like a Rotel RMB-1080 or similar with 200wpc should free up the yammer to power the rest of your speakers.
or go 5ch (RMB-1075 5 x 130wpc) and bi-amp the mains and use the 5th channel for the center and the yammer for the rears.
both the 1075 and 1080 are roughly the same price at $700ish on audiogon.
a word of advice, since you're keeping the yamaha i'd stay away from Adcom, i found that combination to be extremely "bright" to the point where i had to turn my treble knob down to compensate. it might have been my speakers too, but i'm still warning you about it anyway.
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actually before you even try that, isnt your receiver 7ch? cant you use the rear surrounds to bi-amp the mains if you're not using rear surrounds?
i'd try that before you start spending more money
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f0rge
actually before you even try that, isnt your receiver 7ch? cant you use the rear surrounds to bi-amp the mains if you're not using rear surrounds?
i'd try that before you start spending more money
He's doing that now. I think it's the restriction of only having one power supply that is limiting his enjoyment.
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f0rge, yes, I am bi-amping my mains currently, and the RMB-1080 does look inviting. I agree that I don't really need a 5 channel amp, and I'm thinking about ways to shorten the length of the wire running up the wall, through the attic and back down the opposite wall that connects the surrounds. I could cut 2/3's of that distance by running the wire under the rug, but the next time I lift the rug I'll most likely be replacing it (I've tried snaking the wire under the rug with unsatisfactory results).
Thanks for the ideas and thanks for giving me something to talk about this afternoon. (This place is like the morgue :rolleyes: )
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
...so for everybody's benefit I'm not even going to talk about the next audio purchase until the time comes...
Oh. Did I say that? :o
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
He's doing that now. I think it's the restriction of only having one power supply that is limiting his enjoyment.
That's probably part of it.
The other part is just the fact the built in amps in receivers are a great value, but only get you so far in terms of sound quality.
Channel separation, woofer control, noise, and distortion from clipping (which happens a lot more than you'd think even at moderate levels) would all be a bit worse in a receiver. By themselves, some of the traits might not be terribly noticeable with many types of speakers and sources, but I think when you add it all up the cumulative effect is siginificant.
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Hey Rich, 40 ft of 12 gauge wire is a pretty long run, especially for B&W's, which usually have impedance minimums approaching 4 ohms for significant ranges. As the impedance gets lower the impact of the cable impedance gets relatively more concerning.
I don't want to say shortening the wire will solve your problems but your adding some resistance in series is changing the FR of your speakers, and introducing some reactance as well. Noticeable? Dunno. It'd only be with the surround speakers, and shouldn't have any effect on your front mains. Speakers connected to 40 ft runs would probably show some effect of that on a FR plot though. I don't think it's going to solve the volume loss you described earlier. But if you can cut the length with any amount of ease, it's a good idea. Every bit counts....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
That's probably part of it.
The other part is just the fact the built in amps in receivers are a great value, but only get you so far in terms of sound quality.
Channel separation, woofer control, noise, and distortion from clipping (which happens a lot more than you'd think even at moderate levels) would all be a bit worse in a receiver. By themselves, some of the traits might not be terribly noticeable with many types of speakers and sources, but I think when you add it all up the cumulative effect is siginificant.
Shouldn't you be writing a review of your new amp for us?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
Shouldn't you be writing a review of your new amp for us?
Patience my friend...
I want to be 100% sure I'm not imagining things, and A/B ing 4 different amps takes some time..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
Patience my friend...
I want to be 100% sure I'm not imagining things, and A/B ing 4 different amps takes some time..
Patience may be a virtue, but I want to know now.
Oh, OK. I'll stick a pin in it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
Patience may be a virtue, but I want to know now.
Oh, OK. I'll stick a pin in it.
LOL. You can PM me for my current, unaudited, unofficial early impressions. Or you can wait for a more thorough, possibly more reliable set of findings in the near future.
Any time I get a new toy I have to resist the urge to publically disclose my initial thoughts. I could have written a scathing review blasting the shoddy quality of the product the other night - and I was already thinking about how to diplomatically word my disappointment. I had given up on it, and if not for a break in between games I wouldn't have tried tinkering with the interconnects. That would have been unfair!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
LOL. You can PM me for my current, unaudited, unofficial early impressions. Or you can wait for a more thorough, possibly more reliable set of findings in the near future.
Any time I get a new toy I have to resist the urge to publically disclose my initial thoughts. I could have written a scathing review blasting the shoddy quality of the product the other night - and I was already thinking about how to diplomatically word my disappointment. I had given up on it, and if not for a break in between games I wouldn't have tried tinkering with the interconnects. That would have been unfair!
Take your time. I'd rather have the correct information tomorrow than the wrong information today. But we won't wait much longer than that without at least an outline.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
Hey Rich, 40 ft of 12 gauge wire is a pretty long run, especially for B&W's, which usually have impedance minimums approaching 4 ohms for significant ranges. As the impedance gets lower the impact of the cable impedance gets relatively more concerning.
I don't want to say shortening the wire will solve your problems but your adding some resistance in series is changing the FR of your speakers, and introducing some reactance as well. Noticeable? Dunno. It'd only be with the surround speakers, and shouldn't have any effect on your front mains. Speakers connected to 40 ft runs would probably show some effect of that on a FR plot though. I don't think it's going to solve the volume loss you described earlier. But if you can cut the length with any amount of ease, it's a good idea. Every bit counts....
I agree Kex. I'm concerned now though with what I highlighted in your post. The drop in volume was clearly noticable with the CC, which is where the bulk of Phil's vocals eminated from, but instruments coming from the left and right mains were effected also. Maybe I'll put together some test cables that are long enough to reach the rears from across the floor just to see if there's any change at all. It's something I can do right now as opposed to trying to *check out* an amp from the higher end audio stores.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
Oh, OK. I'll stick a pin in it.
I had something a bit.... wider..... in mind. :rolleyes:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
I had something a bit.... wider..... in mind. :rolleyes:
Just a bit? So sorry dude. So very sorry.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
I agree Kex. I'm concerned now though with what I highlighted in your post. The drop in volume was clearly noticable with the CC, which is where the bulk of Phil's vocals eminated from, but instruments coming from the left and right mains were effected also. Maybe I'll put together some test cables that are long enough to reach the rears from across the floor just to see if there's any change at all. It's something I can do right now as opposed to trying to *check out* an amp from the higher end audio stores.
Heres one thing you can try.
I liked DDII music mode for awhile but now use pure audio only.
THE WEAKNESS OF A LOT OF MODERN RECEIVERS COMES FROM
the lack of a decent power supply.
They give you the V8, but not the fuel injection.
SO PLAY IN 2 CHANNEL FOR MUSIC ONLY.
This will give you only two channels to draw from the power supply, giving you more real power.
This is why in the specs the power for two channel is higher than for all channels driven, this is always the case.
Biamping, using the B speakers for the woofers and the mains for the tweeters,
will give you a lot more power, but is cumbersome.
Also you dont need a bunch of amps, two, maybe three.
Like an adcom 3 channel, the surrounds can be handled quite handily by the amps in the receiver.
That is until you start with multichannel PCM, which is full freak, ask MR P :1:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
I agree Kex. I'm concerned now though with what I highlighted in your post. The drop in volume was clearly noticable with the CC, which is where the bulk of Phil's vocals eminated from, but instruments coming from the left and right mains were effected also. Maybe I'll put together some test cables that are long enough to reach the rears from across the floor just to see if there's any change at all. It's something I can do right now as opposed to trying to *check out* an amp from the higher end audio stores.
Rich, does the volume suckout happen at any volume level or just really loud volumes? Do you have an SPL meter? How loud are we talking here?
Do you have your speakers set to "small" on the receiver?
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Kex, I observed all this at about 90 dB in the room. No problems with "2 channel stereo" or "7 channel stereo". I used an SPL meter to setup each speaker's level, but never thought to observe the readings when I heard these effects in any "surround decode" mode or in "pure direct" mode by placing the meter right in front of the CC speaker. All speakers are set to large, and I experimented a little with the sub's crossover settings. In fact, I think I tried all settings that the receiver gives ranging from 40hz to... what is it... 250hz with no difference. I don't recall whether or not I set the speakers to small when I was going up the xover frequency range, but I did try sending all LF to the sub only. I was making my brain key off the low, low frequency passages in the song to see if they coinsided with the midrange frequency's volume level drops, but it was hard to tell.
What I remember from the old days is that when my Pioneer SX-450's tuner display light was blinking in time with the music, it meant I was using speaker wire that was too thin. What I knew back then was that if my receiver put out 45 watts, and my speakers were 50 watts, then I had a good match, and I shouldn't have to worry about clipping, so to solve the blinking light problem I used heavier gauge wire. I'm equating these two experiences as one in the same.
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pix, my receiver model no longer uses the A/B speaker scheme, but instead uses zones.
And I think someone mentioned that in their experience Adcom amps created too much brightness in the signature. I'm leaning towards something with a bit more warmth just because of the listening environment and the five tweeters, but that's yet to be determined.
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the adcom comment was me, nice amps, but not a great match for yamaha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
Kex, I observed all this at about 90 dB in the room. No problems with "2 channel stereo" or "7 channel stereo". I used an SPL meter to setup each speaker's level, but never thought to observe the readings when I heard these effects in any "surround decode" mode or in "pure direct" mode by placing the meter right in front of the CC speaker. All speakers are set to large, and I experimented a little with the sub's crossover settings. In fact, I think I tried all settings that the receiver gives ranging from 40hz to... what is it... 250hz with no difference. I don't recall whether or not I set the speakers to small when I was going up the xover frequency range, but I did try sending all LF to the sub only. I was making my brain key off the low, low frequency passages in the song to see if they coinsided with the midrange frequency's volume level drops, but it was hard to tell.
What I remember from the old days is that when my Pioneer SX-450's tuner display light was blinking in time with the music, it meant I was using speaker wire that was too thin. What I knew back then was that if my receiver put out 45 watts, and my speakers were 50 watts, then I had a good match, and I shouldn't have to worry about clipping, so to solve the blinking light problem I used heavier gauge wire. I'm equating these two experiences as one in the same.
Cool...last question - how big is your room and how far are your speakers from your seating position? (I gotta hunch...)
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I knew I should've spent time this weekend updating my room layout then posting up the diagram...
The effective dimensions of the room are 18' x 18.5'. The listening position is about 10' in front of the CC, and the distance between the two mains is, IIRC, about 12'.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
I knew I should've spent time this weekend updating my room layout then posting up the diagram...
The effective dimensions of the room are 18' x 18.5'. The listening position is about 10' in front of the CC, and the distance between the two mains is, IIRC, about 12'.
I think those spekaers have minimum impedances close to 3 ohms IIRC. So not easy to drive.
What your describing sounds to me like your Yamaha's voltage limiters are kicking in, If the current gets to high, the system cuts back the voltage some. It's a dynamic process that protects your amp and speakers, but would produce the volume suckout you're describing.
Rich, is the 8 ohm switch selected, or 6 ohm?
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