New HD-DVD info: not good news if you use component vid for HDTV

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

This is just crazy, how in the hell does Toshiba expect to sell this format to the public if they are going to bypass millions of display devices already in the field?

Do they really think these guys that have invested thousand of dollars in their display devices that do not have HDMI connections are going to buy new projectors and television just for this format?

Toshiba is also sending out mixed signals. In a seminar that I attended earlier this year, during a discussion on HD-DVD(which was quickly cutoff by a studio exec) a Toshiba representative said that HD-DVD was going to based on 1080i. When asked about 1080P, he said that Toshiba didn't have this resolution on its plate and that it would have to retool the entire format to accomodate it. Now they are saying it is going to be based on 1080P. Guys, what is it?

I am so glad I was smart enough to purchased a RPTV with a HDMI input, though I'm still not going to support either formats until we get ONE format. I personally think that HD-DVD will be a huge bust(don't quote me on this LOL)

[Geoffcin]

This is just crazy, how in the hell does Toshiba expect to sell this format to the public if they are going to bypass millions of display devices already in the field?

Do they really think these guys that have invested thousand of dollars in their display devices that do not have HDMI connections are going to buy new projectors and television just for this format?

Toshiba knows that the people who buy the latest & greatest stuff are already going to have a TV with HDMI inputs. By choosing the release HD-DVD in HDMI only it's going to give it an exculsivity that these people LIKE to have. More importantly, it also insures that the digital copywrite protection that software providers have been demanding is enforced.

The real question is going to be is if receiver manufacturers are going to make receivers that are capable of down-converting HDMI to component. So far I haven't seen one.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Toshiba knows that the people who buy the latest & greatest stuff are already going to have a TV with HDMI inputs. By choosing the release HD-DVD in HDMI only it's going to give it an exculsivity that these people LIKE to have. More importantly, it also insures that the digital copywrite protection that software providers have been demanding is enforced.

How then are you going to build a mass market format when you are offering exclusivity to only a few? I completely understand about the copy protection, but you cannot build a format that is going to be the sucessor to the DVD by asking consumers to purchase a new player, television AND receiver.

The real question is going to be is if receiver manufacturers are going to make receivers that are capable of down-converting HDMI to component. So far I haven't seen one.

Forget this, what about receivers offering Dts-HD and DD plus? Haven't even heard of a manufacturer even mentioning this.

[Geoffcin]

How then are you going to build a mass market format when you are offering exclusivity to only a few? I completely understand about the copy protection, but you cannot build a format that is going to be the sucessor to the DVD by asking consumers to purchase a new player, television AND receiver.



Forget this, what about receivers offering Dts-HD and DD plus? Haven't even heard of a manufacturer even mentioning this.

You offer HD for the people who have it (HDMI), and DVD quality for everyone else. It's going to be a long process for them to get everyone on board with HD, I think this is going to be one more incentive.

As to buying a new Player TV, & Receiver. I'm sure that's EXACTLY what the manufactures have in mind, wether they support HD-DVD or BlueRay tech. Like every other emerging tech, the first owners are going to pay a premium for it. These people know that, and really don't mind the expence. I'm sure you know the type.

[kexodusc]

You offer HD for the people who have it (HDMI), and DVD quality for everyone else. It's going to be a long process for them to get everyone on board with HD, I think this is going to be one more incentive.

As to buying a new Player TV, & Receiver. I'm sure that's EXACTLY what the manufactures have in mind, wether they support HD-DVD or BlueRay tech. Like every other emerging tech, the first owners are going to pay a premium for it. These people know that, and really don't mind the expence. I'm sure you know the type.

As an unbiased observer, I have little doubt Blu-ray will pull the same HDMI stunt..same industry mentality working here. But what's to worry about?

Geoffcin's right...it'll take all but 1 nanosecond for an HDMI to Component convertor to hit the market, and my guess is sold by the DVD or TV manufacturers. What that will cost is anyone's guess. I wouldn't at all be surprised if Receivers did the switching when it comes, too.

Any fears are quite unreasonable at this point. It's absolutely clear that the HDMI favoritism won't be a factor for the customers who actually WILL buy early HD-DVD players. And given the lifespan of TV's, and the average joe who lags behind several years, they likely will have an HDMI TV by the time they do adopt the format or will buy convertors. What's the problem here?

I have all the tools ready to for HD-DVD, but there's no way I'm droppint $900-$1000 on a player for very few titles, when I can wait 2 years, and most likely get a far superior unit for 1/2 the price with more titles available. And you can bet if Blu-Ray enters the fold and a format war does occur, it'll probably be later than that.

Anyone else here pick up on the fact that Blu-Ray and HD-DVD camps are expecting their players to be in the $1000 range? You can buy a 51" HDTV for that kind of dough!

[Feanor]

How then are you going to build a mass market format when you are offering exclusivity to only a few? I completely understand about the copy protection, but you cannot build a format that is going to be the sucessor to the DVD by asking consumers to purchase a new player, television AND receiver.
...

The industry loves to "skim" or stratify the market. First, they want to find the people who are willing to pay a whole lot of money for an improvement. They want to grab all of that money. Then, over time, as ordinary people upgrade and manfacturing becomes more efficient, they will allow the previously elite technology trickle down to the masses.

Is this a good strategy versus going at once to the mass market? Will it work? Maybe not, but it's some thing the industry wants to try.

[Widowmaker]

This is just crazy, how in the hell does Toshiba expect to sell this format to the public if they are going to bypass millions of display devices already in the field?

Do they really think these guys that have invested thousand of dollars in their display devices that do not have HDMI connections are going to buy new projectors and television just for this format?

Toshiba is also sending out mixed signals. In a seminar that I attended earlier this year, during a discussion on HD-DVD(which was quickly cutoff by a studio exec) a Toshiba representative said that HD-DVD was going to based on 1080i. When asked about 1080P, he said that Toshiba didn't have this resolution on its plate and that it would have to retool the entire format to accomodate it. Now they are saying it is going to be based on 1080P. Guys, what is it?

I am so glad I was smart enough to purchased a RPTV with a HDMI input, though I'm still not going to support either formats until we get ONE format. I personally think that HD-DVD will be a huge bust(don't quote me on this LOL)

This may not be Toshiba's fault. As we all know, HDMI/DVI inputs are HDCP protected and Hollywood may have insisted to Toshiba that they want HDCP-only to protect their IP.

Besides, it won't be just Toshiba, I can easily envision Sony making Blu-ray HDMI/DVI exclusive as well.

[edtyct]

No movie studio will sanction films in any HD format unless copy protection is in place, and component outputs won't cut it. Even upconversion to pseudo-HD is impossible without DVI/HDMI at this point. Neither Toshiba nor Sony can afford to manufacture units that no one will buy because content providers refuse to release material. Should they just scrap the idea of DVD in HD altogether? I hardly think so. As Kexo and others have said, most people will wait until their natural upgrade to a compatible display or simply wait until the smoke clears from the war without losing any sleep. The early adopters can have their usual field day, and suffer their customary fate, whether or not either proposed format takes hold. Titles that studios don't consider sensitive might well allow analog playback in HD, but few people will probably want to see them. By the way, 1080p mastering doesn't mean that 1080p decks are in the offing. Even 480p titles are mastered in the state of the art.

Ed

[nick4433]

My hats off to all of you who have embarked upon this HD journey when nothing has been established as a standard. Rock on dudes while I enjoy my projector connected through component cables from my DVD and enjoying the spectacular vision and the 5.1 audio to go with it. Just let me know when the standard has been set and I might bite.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

No movie studio will sanction films in any HD format unless copy protection is in place, and component outputs won't cut it. Even upconversion to pseudo-HD is impossible without DVI/HDMI at this point. Neither Toshiba nor Sony can afford to manufacture units that no one will buy because content providers refuse to release material. Should they just scrap the idea of DVD in HD altogether? I hardly think so. As Kexo and others have said, most people will wait until their natural upgrade to a compatible display or simply wait until the smoke clears from the war without losing any sleep. The early adopters can have their usual field day, and suffer their customary fate, whether or not either proposed format takes hold. Titles that studios don't consider sensitive might well allow analog playback in HD, but few people will probably want to see them. By the way, 1080p mastering doesn't mean that 1080p decks are in the offing. Even 480p titles are mastered in the state of the art.

Ed

Do you really think that buying public is going to support a format that requires not only a new receiver, but a new television/projector AND player? The public didn't even buy into DVD-A or SACD which required far less of an investment, and you could still watch DVD's on the player.

I have visited many a A/V site in the last 3 months. If you have read any polls(which are not scientific by any means) on the high def formats, many say they are going to wait this one out. I understand the copy protection issues, but the record companies destroyed DVD-A and SACD by requiring the use of analog outputs, I think the studios are going to destroy these formats be requiring that manufacturers use outputs that aren't already in widespread use in the field. I just don't think the support is there for a major equipment overhaul.

Nick, I hate you! LOL

[nick4433]

Nick, I hate you! LOL

LOLOLOLOL.

[edtyct]

Do you really think that buying public is going to support a format that requires not only a new receiver, but a new television/projector AND player? The public didn't even buy into DVD-A or SACD which required far less of an investment, and you could still watch DVD's on the player.

I have visited many a A/V site in the last 3 months. If you have read any polls(which are not scientific by any means) on the high def formats, many say they are going to wait this one out. I understand the copy protection issues, but the record companies destroyed DVD-A and SACD by requiring the use of analog outputs, I think the studios are going to destroy these formats be requiring that manufacturers use outputs that aren't already in widespread use in the field. I just don't think the support is there for a major equipment overhaul.

Sir T, was this shock and awe response meant for me? Well, then, no. I don't think that the buying public will support a format that requires a lot of new equipment, or even one piece for that matter. Toshiba and Sony have just as much data, if not more and better data, about potential adopters than we do (not to mention money), and they are still going to issue their product. It will appeal to a small population and will be priced accordingly. They have to start somewhere. They can afford at least some of the risk involved (though they wouldn't be foolish enough to manufacture these players on a platform that studios wouldn't accept under any conditions). I'm not so sure that the mandate of digital inputs/outputs will forever destroy these formats (or ones very much like them). (And please don't interpret this remark as a lack of sympathy for the thousands of people who bought TVs with only digital inputs). Toshiba and Sony may well have to wait before DVD in HD catches fire, but by all accounts, they are undaunted by anything that might suggest market failure. I guess the possible upside is enough for them.

The preceding was not an endorsement of digital copyprotection or corporate chest thumping of any kind.

Ed

[Woochifer]

Do you really think that buying public is going to support a format that requires not only a new receiver, but a new television/projector AND player? The public didn't even buy into DVD-A or SACD which required far less of an investment, and you could still watch DVD's on the player.

I have visited many a A/V site in the last 3 months. If you have read any polls(which are not scientific by any means) on the high def formats, many say they are going to wait this one out. I understand the copy protection issues, but the record companies destroyed DVD-A and SACD by requiring the use of analog outputs, I think the studios are going to destroy these formats be requiring that manufacturers use outputs that aren't already in widespread use in the field. I just don't think the support is there for a major equipment overhaul.

I guess my question is why are these formats getting rushed to market at this time? I understand that the growth curve on DVD has begun to slow down and all of the players are looking for a new cash cow to milk, since the high margins on the DVD format evaporated a lot sooner than anybody had anticipated. The video software dealers are lobbying everybody involved to unify behind a single format, and they are ultimately the final arbiter of whether these formats sink or swim -- no shelf space for HD-DVD or Blu-ray (mail order still constitutes a small percentage of DVD sales), then the formats will not succeed as anything other than an expensive niche format.

And who knows, maybe the goal for HD-DVD and Blu-ray is to remain an expensive high margin, low volume product where the prices for players and discs remain at a premium. I know that there was plenty of grumbling over how quickly the DVD hardware and movie titles became commodified. But, with HD broadcast and satellite rapidly coming online, there will be plenty of HD options to choose from over the next few years. So, I don't see how these market barriers at the outset can benefit the prospects for HD-DVD and Blu-ray. I read that a poll taken on the AVS Forum found that 45% of the respondents with HDTVs did not have digital video connections. That's a lot of potential customers who will be locked out of the market at the outset, unless external devices come out that will enable them to view HD-DVD or Blu-ray at full resolution. And with any HDMI digital to analog converters, who knows how much they will cost at the outset, or what the picture quality will look like.

Getting the parties to unify behind a single HD disc format will supposedly delay the introduction by about a year as technical issues get resolved, but I say what's wrong with that? One more year means that many more HDTVs sold, and that many more potential consumers for the new HD discs. It also gives more time for DD+ and DTS-HD processors to make their way into high end receivers/processors in anticipation of the new discs coming onto the market. I just don't see the logic behind yet another botched launch and format war. Get behind one format, prepare the market, and do the product launch right. Even the DVD didn't really take off until Circuit City's idiotic DivX format failed and all of the studios finally united behind the DVD format.