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  1. #1
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    New 3d TVs hitting the market

    New 3D LED TV offerings from major players have hit the shelves here in Portugal.

    Samsung has a few SMART models on sale with little or no premium to pay for 3D. However the models still continue with the reflective screen.

    Lots of rumors regarding LG, but nothing new that I can report on. A lot of hype on their passive 3D though.

    Apparently it pays to rant and rave about MATTE screens, as somebody at SONY must have their ears open to this issue: their EX720 3D TV is a matte screen version ready to do battle with the new Philips PFL 8505 edge lit LED 3D.

    The Philips TV is apparently aimed at the German and/or Austrian market as almost all the Googled results are in German, but their 46in version is available here in Portugal together with a free 26in LED TV!!

    Please post more info to this tread as most of us are still open to suggestions....

  2. #2
    VIP Member Smokey's Avatar
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    If you are planning to buy a 3D TV, I would definitly stay away from edge lit LED LCDs. They are notorious for edge bleedng and flashing.

  3. #3
    Rocket Surgeon Swish's Avatar
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    I just don't see the point.

    It seems like such a fad to me, and nothing more. Sitting around in your house with funny glasses on to watch a 3D movie doesn't appeal to me one iota. I would also submit that there will be very few movies available in 3D and that that whole thing falls apart within a year or two.
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  4. #4
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swish
    It seems like such a fad to me, and nothing more. Sitting around in your house with funny glasses on to watch a 3D movie doesn't appeal to me one iota. I would also submit that there will be very few movies available in 3D and that that whole thing falls apart within a year or two.
    How can it be a fad when it's built into an existing HD video standard? The 3D spec is basically a metadata-based add-on to the existing MPEG-4 AVC standard (the same one that underpins Blu-ray and newer cable/satellite receivers).

    How can 3D "fall apart" when it's well on its way to becoming standard issue on the majority of new HDTVs, Blu-ray players, and cable/satellite receivers? All of Directv's MPEG-4 HD receivers were updated for 3D service last summer, and the system software for the PS3 (which make up about half of all Blu-ray players) was enabled for 3D last fall.

    The hardware is rapidly moving to 3D whether you want it to or not. It's a simple function of the updated MPEG-4 spec making its way into the latest video processing chips, and those processors migrating their way into new devices. Within your two year timeline, it's actually more likely that the majority of new HDTVs will simply come with the 3D function built in, since all of the new video processors will support it.

    At the implementation end, the biggest R&D efforts in the TV industry right now are with glasses-free 3D TVs. But, whether the implementation uses shutter glasses, polarized glasses, or no glasses, they're all based on the same signal standard.

    As far as content goes, in addition 3D theatrical releases, there are already four 3D broadcast channels on the air, including ESPN 3D. Development of new 3D HD cameras is well underway that will allow for one camera to be used simultaneously for 2D and 3D feeds. Once this happens, then the ramp up of 3D for live events will likely occur rapidly -- think sports, concerts, and event-based programs like American Idol.

    Deployment of 3D TV is occurring much faster than it did with HDTV, and there's really nothing to impede that progress, given that it's a simple refinement of an existing standard. If you don't want to watch something in 3D, you don't have to. But, the new HDTV that you buy in a few years will likely have the 3D feature built in regardless.
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  5. #5
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nasir
    New 3D LED TV offerings from major players have hit the shelves here in Portugal.

    Samsung has a few SMART models on sale with little or no premium to pay for 3D. However the models still continue with the reflective screen.

    Lots of rumors regarding LG, but nothing new that I can report on. A lot of hype on their passive 3D though.

    Apparently it pays to rant and rave about MATTE screens, as somebody at SONY must have their ears open to this issue: their EX720 3D TV is a matte screen version ready to do battle with the new Philips PFL 8505 edge lit LED 3D.

    The Philips TV is apparently aimed at the German and/or Austrian market as almost all the Googled results are in German, but their 46in version is available here in Portugal together with a free 26in LED TV!!

    Please post more info to this tread as most of us are still open to suggestions....
    Just as semantic thing, but there is no such thing as an LED TV per se. It's still a LCD TV, except that it uses LED backlighting rather than CCFL. And LED backlighting that use edge lighting (i.e., mounting the LEDs along the edge of the panel, rather than directly behind) have a lot of performance issues, since that design only serves to allow for a thinner panel.

    As far as 3D goes, the price gap is indeed narrowing. Samsung deliberately went with a different rollout strategy by adding the 3D feature to its entry level TVs, rather than keeping it only in the high end models. It actually worked to some extent, because Samsung kept the same ~$300 price premium for the 3D feature as other manufacturers, except that the $300 3D markup got added to a much cheaper TV. Same markup, but a higher margin.

    IMO, within the next few years, you'll gradually start seeing the 3D feature simply become standard on new HDTVs. At that point, I think the higher pricing will go towards glasses-free 3D TVs, which the TV manufacturers are feverishly developing right now.

    As far as glossy vs matte, I think the market is actually moving towards glossy screens. We've already seen this happen in the computer monitor and laptop market, where buyers will typically opt for the glossy screen over a matte screen when given the option. Samsung started offering glossy screens on its LCD TVs a few years ago, and they've expanded it since then. The irony here is that plasma TVs have been using different anti-reflective/anti-glare coatings to try and reduce the reflections.
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  6. #6
    Rocket Surgeon Swish's Avatar
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    Smile Now why did you have to go and inject facts into..

    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    How can it be a fad when it's built into an existing HD video standard? The 3D spec is basically a metadata-based add-on to the existing MPEG-4 AVC standard (the same one that underpins Blu-ray and newer cable/satellite receivers).

    How can 3D "fall apart" when it's well on its way to becoming standard issue on the majority of new HDTVs, Blu-ray players, and cable/satellite receivers? All of Directv's MPEG-4 HD receivers were updated for 3D service last summer, and the system software for the PS3 (which make up about half of all Blu-ray players) was enabled for 3D last fall.

    The hardware is rapidly moving to 3D whether you want it to or not. It's a simple function of the updated MPEG-4 spec making its way into the latest video processing chips, and those processors migrating their way into new devices. Within your two year timeline, it's actually more likely that the majority of new HDTVs will simply come with the 3D function built in, since all of the new video processors will support it.

    At the implementation end, the biggest R&D efforts in the TV industry right now are with glasses-free 3D TVs. But, whether the implementation uses shutter glasses, polarized glasses, or no glasses, they're all based on the same signal standard.

    As far as content goes, in addition 3D theatrical releases, there are already four 3D broadcast channels on the air, including ESPN 3D. Development of new 3D HD cameras is well underway that will allow for one camera to be used simultaneously for 2D and 3D feeds. Once this happens, then the ramp up of 3D for live events will likely occur rapidly -- think sports, concerts, and event-based programs like American Idol.

    Deployment of 3D TV is occurring much faster than it did with HDTV, and there's really nothing to impede that progress, given that it's a simple refinement of an existing standard. If you don't want to watch something in 3D, you don't have to. But, the new HDTV that you buy in a few years will likely have the 3D feature built in regardless.
    ...the discussion? I never worry about all that stuff. I just inject my opinion and hope everyone follows along quietly.
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  7. #7
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swish
    ...the discussion? I never worry about all that stuff. I just inject my opinion and hope everyone follows along quietly.
    D'oh!!!! My bad!
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  8. #8
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Cool

    Wish I had a pic of an EDSEL to post on this thread...oh wait.
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  9. #9
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    There is a lot happening on the 3D front right now. Right now the industry is working on some sort of 3D standardization that allows all passive glasses to work with all passive 3D televisions and projection systems, and all active glasses work with all active 3D televisions and projector systems. So no more incompatibilities between glasses and televisions - you buy one pair, and it will work with all sets and projectors. This is a big step forward for 3D adoption.

    The prices on 3DTV's are dropping, and the 3D feature is being found on more and more mid and lower priced televisions.

    The worst problem with 3D at this point is ghosting, and it is totally attributed to the shutter glasses. I just received some glasses from a major company that advertise that the shutters sync so rapid and accurate, that they eliminate ghosting altogether. So far in my testing, they work as advertised. Movies that I had with very minor ghosting issues suddenly did not have it at all.

    3D is not for everyone, but those of us that are into it, things are going to get pretty interesting and exciting going forward.

    For anyone who thinks it is a passing fad, think again. 3D is here to stay this go around.
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  10. #10
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    I grant you this much, the picture on a reflective screen is more appealing than the one on the matte screen: the blacks are more glossy and so are the colors... but the reflection issue for me is more important and therefore I would still buy the matte TV screen.

    Price wise there is only a small premium to pay for 3D, nothing like last year and the transmitter and glasses have come down in price for the Sony.

    I donīt know if anybody else has noticed it, but I feel the need for a slightly bigger screen when viewing 3D material..... anybody else?

    I too share the view that 3D capability will become standard for newer TVs soon and one hopes that they are compatible with 3D Bluray players from different manufacturers...

  11. #11
    ride a jet ski Tarheel_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

    The worst problem with 3D at this point is ghosting, and it is totally attributed to the shutter glasses. I just received some glasses from a major company that advertise that the shutters sync so rapid and accurate, that they eliminate ghosting altogether.

    For anyone who thinks it is a passing fad, think again. 3D is here to stay this go around.
    Sir TT, you missed the whole point... 3D will fail because you MUST wear glasses period. You know how many people poke into their eyes to remove/add contacts to spare themselves from glasses. It will fail and i'm an optimist.

  12. #12
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarheel_
    Sir TT, you missed the whole point... 3D will fail because you MUST wear glasses period. You know how many people poke into their eyes to remove/add contacts to spare themselves from glasses. It will fail and i'm an optimist.
    AH, YES, another voice of reason.
    Peeps think I want 3D to "fail", and thats not the case. Its just that irresponsible use
    still causes headaches, and most people are idiots, and will watch these sets forever.
    And there is hardly any software. CAN'T wait till the class action lawsuit.
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  13. #13
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarheel_
    Sir TT, you missed the whole point... 3D will fail because you MUST wear glasses period. You know how many people poke into their eyes to remove/add contacts to spare themselves from glasses. It will fail and i'm an optimist.
    Tarheel, sorry, but reality is not on your side. 3D televisions sales have picked up as of recently, and survey's point to more interest in 3D sets than last year. I wear glasses, as does my two closest friends who also own 3D sets. We find no problem with the glasses whether passive of active. YOU may have an issue with the glasses, and a certain minority may have issues, but most of us who actually own the sets and glasses have no issues with them. You cannot spare yourself from the glasses, and there is no need to remove or add contacts. The glasses are not made for replacing your prescription glasses.

    And this also counters your opinion as well.

    http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=6205

    This is one issue that I am glad you are wrong about.
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  14. #14
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nasir
    I grant you this much, the picture on a reflective screen is more appealing than the one on the matte screen: the blacks are more glossy and so are the colors... but the reflection issue for me is more important and therefore I would still buy the matte TV screen.

    Price wise there is only a small premium to pay for 3D, nothing like last year and the transmitter and glasses have come down in price for the Sony.

    I donīt know if anybody else has noticed it, but I feel the need for a slightly bigger screen when viewing 3D material..... anybody else?

    I too share the view that 3D capability will become standard for newer TVs soon and one hopes that they are compatible with 3D Bluray players from different manufacturers...
    I do recommend a larger set for 3D because the image does scale down when you put on the glasses. What helps more than a larger set is sitting the proper distance from the set when viewing 3D. Larger screens do enhance the 3D effect better than smaller sets do.
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  15. #15
    Tyler Acoustics Fan drseid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    The worst problem with 3D at this point is ghosting, and it is totally attributed to the shutter glasses. I just received some glasses from a major company that advertise that the shutters sync so rapid and accurate, that they eliminate ghosting altogether. So far in my testing, they work as advertised. Movies that I had with very minor ghosting issues suddenly did not have it at all.
    Wow, I want to get me some of those. :-) On my Sony, I don't encounter major ghosting on many 3D Blu-rays, but when the Masters was on ESPN 3D (via Fios TV) I had so much ghosting going on, I had to switch back to watching it on the regular broadcast channel in 2D.

    As for the merits of 3D, I am kind of in the middle here. I like it on some movies (like the Avatar 3D blu-ray that is incredible), and find it tiresome on others like the horrible (IMO) The Last Airbender 3D blu-ray. When implemented properly on certain material it can add to the movie watching experience significantly... it just needs to be selectively and properly implemented, IMO. If the studios can do this, then I think it has good staying power. If it is used just to ramp up movie ticket prices and adds little to films, then I think it will be diminished rather quickly both in the theaters and in the home. I guess we will see which it is.

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  16. #16
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    They need to keep it in theaters for now. Better to wait instead of launching it prematurely
    and having it crash and burn, like all of the other times.
    BUT THEY WON'T do that, because it would betray the effects of long term use,
    and can't have that
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  17. #17
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drseid
    Wow, I want to get me some of those. :-) On my Sony, I don't encounter major ghosting on many 3D Blu-rays, but when the Masters was on ESPN 3D (via Fios TV) I had so much ghosting going on, I had to switch back to watching it on the regular broadcast channel in 2D.
    Broadcast 3D is a tough bugger because they have to shoot what is there in real time. With 3D movies, every object is placed and shot with 3D in mind. In post, the 3D is monitored and corrected to eleminate ghosting.

    As for the merits of 3D, I am kind of in the middle here. I like it on some movies (like the Avatar 3D blu-ray that is incredible), and find it tiresome on others like the horrible (IMO) The Last Airbender 3D blu-ray. When implemented properly on certain material it can add to the movie watching experience significantly... it just needs to be selectively and properly implemented, IMO. If the studios can do this, then I think it has good staying power. If it is used just to ramp up movie ticket prices and adds little to films, then I think it will be diminished rather quickly both in the theaters and in the home. I guess we will see which it is.

    ---Dave
    The difference between Avatar and The Last Airbender is that Avatar was framed and shot with 3D camera's, and The Last Airbender was shot with digital 2D camera's with 3D added in post. Warner only allotted 2 weeks time for the post production 3D rendering, which is not nearly enough time to render quality 3D images. And you are right, it was so poorly done, it was hard on the eyes.
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  18. #18
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drseid
    As for the merits of 3D, I am kind of in the middle here. I like it on some movies (like the Avatar 3D blu-ray that is incredible), and find it tiresome on others like the horrible (IMO) The Last Airbender 3D blu-ray.
    Same with me. Avatar clearly set the bar with what you could do with 3D when properly executed. I've yet to see, however, another 3D movie with that level of realism. It seems most of the filmed versions (not animated) are post production efforts. Don't get me wrong - I'd really like to see more examples like Avatar. I see the situation like MC music. It's great when done well, but availability for the majority of musical releases is absent. I won't invest in a new technology when it benefits only 1-2% of my collection.

    rw

  19. #19
    Forum Regular BadAssJazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Same with me. Avatar clearly set the bar with what you could do with 3D when properly executed. I've yet to see, however, another 3D movie with that level of realism. It seems most of the filmed versions (not animated) are post production efforts. Don't get me wrong - I'd really like to see more examples like Avatar. I see the situation like MC music. It's great when done well, but availability for the majority of musical releases is absent. I won't invest in a new technology when it benefits only 1-2% of my collection.

    rw
    That's pretty much my take on 3D as well. I doubt I'll ever upgrade just for 3D alone. Not unless I win the lottery and can buy or build my own IMAX 3D theater. Until then, I'll be happy with the normal limitations of my standard setup. It will make seeing certain movies at the theater that much more of an event.
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  20. #20
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadAssJazz
    That's pretty much my take on 3D as well. I doubt I'll ever upgrade just for 3D alone. Not unless I win the lottery and can buy or build my own IMAX 3D theater. Until then, I'll be happy with the normal limitations of my standard setup. It will make seeing certain movies at the theater that much more of an event.
    Well, the same thing as said a decade ago about HD. Right now, the market is hitting those early adopters that will upgrade their TV for the 3D capability. But, within the next few years, the 3D feature is just going to migrate its way into most, if not all, new TVs. In much the same that you can now barely find any non-HD TVs, the majority of TVs at that point will come with 3D whether you want it or not.

    3D broadcasts on at least 4 channels have already gone live, and there's a lot of development underway on 3D HD cameras and production facilities. And manufacturers are pushing hard on developing glasses-free 3D. There's a lot of activity on the 3D front. The current crop of TVs is just seeding the market while everything else starts to come online.
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  21. #21
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    And manufacturers are pushing hard on developing glasses-free 3D.
    That is the biggest challenge to widespread use. As for me, I don't have any trouble wearing them. I don't get headaches or object to their use for limited periods of time. I doubt, however, that the public at large would ever accept the notion that you had to wear them all the time just to watch Oprah or the evening news.

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  22. #22
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    Well, the same thing as said a decade ago about HD. Right now, the market is hitting those early adopters that will upgrade their TV for the 3D capability. But, within the next few years, the 3D feature is just going to migrate its way into most, if not all, new TVs. In much the same that you can now barely find any non-HD TVs, the majority of TVs at that point will come with 3D whether you want it or not.

    3D broadcasts on at least 4 channels have already gone live, and there's a lot of development underway on 3D HD cameras and production facilities. And manufacturers are pushing hard on developing glasses-free 3D. There's a lot of activity on the 3D front. The current crop of TVs is just seeding the market while everything else starts to come online.
    YOUR comparo is flawed.
    HDTV was a massive change, dumb monitors have become computers, basically,
    and are used like computers. Ghosting, moire, jaggies, all are gone.
    SO IS A COMPANY that was making a box that got rid of ghosting, thats all it did.
    Comparing HDTV to a gimmick like 3D is, frankly, ridiculous.
    Theres' a form of 3D that doesn't require glasses, been used on computers, why not
    use that?
    3D is not "gradually" being adopted, it is actively being resisted, nobody wants
    to pay such a premium for such an untested tech, especially one with a track record
    of crashing and burning repeatedly.
    HDTV is a revolution, 3D is a regression...back to the Saturday matinees with the blue/red glasses.
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  23. #23
    Forum Regular BadAssJazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    Well, the same thing as said a decade ago about HD.
    Yes, but not by me.

    I was all over the HD evolution/revolution in the same way that I was thrilled to ditch my 8-track for cassette tapes, and later cassette tapes for CD's. Nothing drives me like taking the next step to AV nirvana.

    If by the next time that I upgrade my plasma I find that only the 3D variety are available, then so be it. I'll plop down my hard-earned ducats and think nothing of it. But right now 3D feels like more a sidestep than a leap forward to me. Maybe if I didn't have to wear the glasses to appreciate the effect I'd feel differently.
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  24. #24
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    YOUR comparo is flawed.
    HDTV was a massive change, dumb monitors have become computers, basically,
    and are used like computers. Ghosting, moire, jaggies, all are gone.
    SO IS A COMPANY that was making a box that got rid of ghosting, thats all it did.
    Comparing HDTV to a gimmick like 3D is, frankly, ridiculous.
    It's not ridiculous if you bother to look at how features migrate onto home theater equipment. A new spec gets adopted, that spec makes its way into the processing chips, and within a few years, it becomes standard issue. That's the path that 3D is taking.

    The 3D MVC spec is already rapidly becoming a standard codec on the latest video processing chips. And this is a simple migration since it's nothing more than a revision to the existing MPEG-4 spec.

    Just because YOU think 3D is a gimmick doesn't mean that manufacturers and broadcasters view it the same way. And right now, they are moving very quickly towards making 3D a standard feature in the very near future.

    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    3D is not "gradually" being adopted, it is actively being resisted, nobody wants
    to pay such a premium for such an untested tech, especially one with a track record
    of crashing and burning repeatedly.
    Again, how is it not being adopted when it is already making its way into the latest processing chips that HDTVs, Blu-ray players, satellite/cable receivers, and other HD devices use? This is no different than when DTS or any other updated audio codec gets released. It's only a matter of time before it becomes a standard feature. All PS3s and all Directv HD receivers have already been enabled for 3D, so tell me again how this is not being adopted?

    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    HDTV is a revolution, 3D is a regression...back to the Saturday matinees with the blue/red glasses.
    Right, and who else but you thinks that 3D still uses blue/red glasses?
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  25. #25
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadAssJazz
    If by the next time that I upgrade my plasma I find that only the 3D variety are available, then so be it. I'll plop down my hard-earned ducats and think nothing of it. But right now 3D feels like more a sidestep than a leap forward to me. Maybe if I didn't have to wear the glasses to appreciate the effect I'd feel differently.
    The 3D spec is pretty much set, and it builds on the existing MPEG-4 standard. The updated MPEG-4 profile has already made its way into many of the latest video processors. With every successive model revision, more and more TVs, BD players, and set-top boxes will use the newer video processors that support the latest MPEG-4 profile.

    With other devices, the 3D feature will get added as a simple update. Millions of PS3s and Directv HD receivers running the latest system software are already enabled for 3D. That's why widespread adoption of 3D is IMO inevitable, and only a matter of time before it becomes just another standard feature.

    Where things get interesting will be with the implementation -- passive glasses, active glasses, or no glasses. But, regardless of which of those approaches a TV manufacturer takes, they will all use the same video signal format.
    Wooch's Home Theater 2.0 (Pics)
    Panasonic VIERA TH-C50FD18 50" 1080p
    Paradigm Reference Studio 40, CC, and 20 v.2
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    Dual CS5000 (Ortofon OM30 Super)
    Denon DVD-758 (DVD-1940ci)
    Sony Playstation 3 (MediaLink OS X Server)
    Sony ES SCD-C2000ES
    JVC HR-S3912U
    Directv HR22
    Oppo Digital HM-31
    Logitech Harmony 650
    iPad 3


    The Neverending DVD/BD Collection

    Subwoofer Setup and Parametric EQ Results *Dead Link*

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