Looking at adding Home theater

[RGA]

Here's what I'm looking to do. Have two channel want to add on home theater. Years ago Yamaha had a three chanel preamp processor with three amplifiers for the center and rear channels(back in the pro-logic days).

Ideally this would be my first choice since my Sugden would still run the front channels and nothing is changed for two channel music. I can't seem to find such a unit around that is sanely priced. That old Yamaha was $150.00CDN when the were blowing them out.

So, if such a unit is not around with DTS/DD then it forces me to look to a receiver. I'm looking to go as cheap as possible but something that will allow me to keep my Sugden's preamp in the chain for two channel listening(it has tape in tape out 3 aux, cd player, tuner turntable ins. The Sugden has preouts and power out.

Ideally all I'd like their to be some sort of pass through...so when I listen to 2 channel music I'm listening the way I do now, and when I want surround sound on goes the receiver. Again I don't want to convert the Sugden into just a power amp.

I don't wholly mind going with just a receiver. I could buy a second set of speaker wires and when I switch to surround just connect the wires to the speakers(I have easy access to the speakers).

If this last bit is easiest (and I'm looking for cheap but not too cheap) what is the general thought on the Yamaha HTR5640 ($450CDN). There is a $249.00 Panasonic that I think Norm loves which is 6.1.

This is one of those occasions where I really don't want to spend onerous amounts of time researching since I won't be able to get exact voice matching across the front anyway(Cause AN doesn't make a center), nor in the rear so the addition of surround will be more of a toy.

It would be nice if the receiver had a lot of control over the center channel and rears in order to help compensate for the center being of another brand. The Yammie 5660 adds little and the price nearly doubles. There is the RX-V440 but I don't know how much that costs.

If anyone knows of an infinite baffle sealed center channel using Vifa drivers let me know.

[TinHere]

A receiver? The security must of broken down on this site since this can't be the real RGA.

The RX-V1400 will save you some money and gives up little to the 2400.

Check out the HALF OFF deal I posted that's going on at AV123 on some of the Rockets. They can also give you a good price on a Denon 1804 as part of a package deal with some speakers. You really won't do better for the money.

I think you will be pleasantly surprised with these for HT and music at the regular price. At these prizes you might just be smiling. Call them and see what they can do for you on shipping to Canada. I'd love to hear what you would have to say about what they have to offer. Heck, a pair of Reference 1's, or the Perpetual Technologies could even be in your future if you got started with them. That would be a good thing.

[46minaudio]

RGA if you buy a receiver with preouts its really easy to do..Run the Frt left and right mains from the preouts on the receiver to an aux input on your 2ch pre.Just use the amps in the Receiver to power the Center and surrounds.Set the volume of the 2ch pre to 1/2(somthing easy to find).Select the aux input on the 2ch pre and calibrate the levels Frts/C/Surrounds on the receiver.When you want 2ch no need to even turn the receiver on just select the input(cd,TT,or what ever) on the 2ch pre of your choice(make sure you remember to turn the 2ch pre down first).When you want 5.1 from the receiver select the aux input on your 2ch pre turn the volume to 1/2 pop a dvd in and you are set..

[Woochifer]

There are several configuration options for the type of setup you're looking for. That Yamaha outboard processor that you described with the three channel amp I believe was only a Pro Logic decoder, so it wouldn't have given you 5.1 capability to begin with.

To maintain your two-channel amp as an analog pass-through, you could just look for any receiver that has preouts and simply connect the preouts to the Sudgen in one of the auxiliary inputs. The receiver would handle the digital format decoding, power the center/surround channels, and send an analog L/R main output through the preouts. It might be a pain in the butt because this setup leaves you with having to match two separate sets of volume controls. But, if home theatre is more of a secondary use, you might be willing to sacrifice some convenience to maintain your two-channel setup.

The ease of matching up the volume controls really depends on how linear the gain on the Sudgen is. If it uses a decibel scale and is digitally regulated, the level matching will be very simple, since most newer home theatre receivers use a digitally regulated volume control that uses a decibel scale. In this case, you only need to use a SPL meter and test tone to establish a reference point, and then match any adjustments between the two units based on that reference (for example, if the amp reaches a 75 db sound level with the volume control set at -40 db, while the receiver reaches that same level with the center/surrounds at -50 db, then you just make sure that the difference between the two volume levels is always 10 db).

If the Sudgen's volume control is more like an analog power regulator (that basically gives you very large steps up in sound level early in the curve and smaller incremental increases as the volume position gets closer to maximum), then you might need to jot down several volume positions and their associative sound levels, and almost have a scale written down somewhere as to what volume positions on the Sudgen correspond to the volume positions on the receiver. This approach sounds and is somewhat complicated, but it allows you to bypass having to use the receiver as a preamp for the L/R main channels.

You can do the exact same type of setup by grabbing a used "Dolby Digital ready" five-channel receiver (these are the ones that did not include digital decoding circuitry on board) and simply plugging in a DVD-A or SACD/DVD player, since those high res digital players also include built-in DD and DTS decoding. The only thing to watch out for would be the bass management if you don't intend to run the center or surround channels at full range.

Yamaha does not include preouts with the 440 and 540, but those models do include a five-band graphic equalizer for the center channel (nothing for the surrounds though). Those two models have the same amp section, but the 440 is limited in its connectivity and only switches composite video sources. If you want preouts, you need to go with the 640 or 740, which sell for $500/$600 USD. Or you could go with last year's 630 or 730 models, if you can still find them (I saw a 730 a while ago selling for under $400 USD). The parametric calibration feature found in their newest 1400 and 2400 models would help with the timbre matching between the center, surround, and mains, but those receivers are also in a much higher price class at $800/$1,000USD.

[This Guy]

the Marantz SR-4300. It has everyting you could possibly need, including the pre-outs which you will need to make your job much easier. It's $300 refurbished at accessories4less.com . And yes they're an authorized dealer. I'm not sure if Marantz is the same company they used to be, but i bought a receiver from them around 6 months ago and it performs flawlessly. And for the center channel, im not sure what you mean. A speaker can be infinite baffle which means it has either no enclosure or the enclosure is eight times it's VAS, which in most cases makes the box huge and the driver's power handling will be significantly reduced. The only good applications for an infinite baffle speaker is for subwoofer systems with multiple drivers, or single driver speaker designed to play at low volume. You could easily make a sealed enclosure center channel with vifa drivers, partsexpress sells pre made boxes and you could buy some vifa or scan speak drivers there.

-Joey

[RGA]

Thanks for the input everyone but I have changed gears on myself yet again. I have had my eye on the marantz largely because of the pre outs. My Sugden is of course an analog volume pot with step volume. It is of the type that will last you 50 years and h/t was not a consideration.

Anyway, what my gear change is is that I'm trying to bite off too much too soon(I should follow my own advice for not doing this). Instead of buying crappy speakers and a crappy receiver I would rather do it in stages with a longer term plan in mind.

I think I'll leave the Sugden Audio Note as is and run a second set of speaker wires from the receiver. When I watch a movie I just have to change the connection at the speaker end which is no big deal.

What I want to do is build from the back to the front. An inexpensive rear speaker (Man I wish I didn't trade those DM 302s d'ohh) and run the receiver in Phantom mode.

I remember with my old Pioneer Elite Pro-logic receiver that I actually preferred the thing in Phantom mode.

Would I be correct in assuming that over the last 8 years they have improved their phantom technology?

This would save considerable money and allow for a better center and better front speakers later. Unfortunately it is irritating that speaker makers change models so fast. I can worry about the speakers myself.

The system does not necesaraily need to be upgradable though the marantz up here is not very expensive. The 4300 is the same price(a little less) than the 5640. Do you have this series in the States? Sometimes Canada gets different models. Here is what is available in Canada http://www.yamaha.ca/av/receivers.asp The 5640 carries a CDN price of $499.00 the 5660 is $749.00Cdn.

Future shop only carries these two. A&B Sound typically shaves another $50.00 to $100.00 more off these prices and carries more lines. Along with Denon and Marantz.

There was a Panasonic that was also 6.1 for a measly $249.99 Cdn Which obviously price wise is the most attractive despite it's bare wire spring connectors. Future Shop Canada is selling these http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/cla...eb2&catid=1043

I am planning on a possible boxing day buy as sometimes a better unit can be had for the same money as a lesser unit.

I also remember the days when Pioneer made Hitachi's Laser disc players and the Hitachi's were far cheaper even though they were a Pioneer in a Hitachi box(people like the Pionner name more). And it was not long ago that Hitachi VCR's were disguised as Sony VCRs the latter being identical and double the price...different remote.

So is Panasonic a Yammie in disguise? LOL. After reading this month's Sound And Vision the allusion to these shinanigans still goes on.

Thanks,
RGA

[Woochifer]

Thanks for the input everyone but I have changed gears on myself yet again. I have had my eye on the marantz largely because of the pre outs. My Sugden is of course an analog volume pot with step volume. It is of the type that will last you 50 years and h/t was not a consideration.

Anyway, what my gear change is is that I'm trying to bite off too much too soon(I should follow my own advice for not doing this). Instead of buying crappy speakers and a crappy receiver I would rather do it in stages with a longer term plan in mind.

I think I'll leave the Sugden Audio Note as is and run a second set of speaker wires from the receiver. When I watch a movie I just have to change the connection at the speaker end which is no big deal.

What I want to do is build from the back to the front. An inexpensive rear speaker (Man I wish I didn't trade those DM 302s d'ohh) and run the receiver in Phantom mode.

Since you already have a dedicated amp for the front two channels, it would give you maximum benefit if you could find a way to incorporate it into your home theatre listening. And by taking the front two channels out of the receiver's hands frees up the power supply to handle only the surround and center channels. An hour or so of taking notes with a SPL meter and a 1 kHz test tone will give you the basis for matching the gain between the Sudgen amp and the receiver.

Building from the back to the front is the approach that I would recommend as well. The center channel is important because with 5.1 sources it is a discrete channel, and so much audio information goes through that channel. However, the full range split surrounds are by far the biggest step up when going from Pro Logic to 5.1. Those are the channels that impart the spatiality with 5.1 soundtracks and create the side imaging. The center channel is used more as an anchor point. It stabilizes the imaging and helps maintain intelligiblity for people sitting off-center.

I remember with my old Pioneer Elite Pro-logic receiver that I actually preferred the thing in Phantom mode.

Would I be correct in assuming that over the last 8 years they have improved their phantom technology?

The phantom modes on 5.1 receivers are different than with Pro Logic receiver because the 5.1 receiver downmixes a discrete full range center channel into the left and right channels at predefined attenuation levels, whereas a Pro Logic receiver applies a layer of processing on top of an extracted limited bandwidth center channel. I'm not sure if the technology's improved, so much as you're now dealing with full range multichannel source material, rather than limited bandwidth matrixed sources. IMO, the surrounds should take priority because without those channels active, the surround channels get steered into the L/R main channels, and the result of that downmixing process can result in more bizarre sound balances than the center channel downmixing produces. The center channel downmixing can also not sound right at times, but not nearly as often as with surround downmixing. With the center speaker, you have to get an adequate match, otherwise it will sound better with just the two mains going in phantom mode.

The system does not necesaraily need to be upgradable though the marantz up here is not very expensive. The 4300 is the same price(a little less) than the 5640. Do you have this series in the States? Sometimes Canada gets different models. Here is what is available in Canada http://www.yamaha.ca/av/receivers.asp The 5640 carries a CDN price of $499.00 the 5660 is $749.00Cdn.

Future shop only carries these two. A&B Sound typically shaves another $50.00 to $100.00 more off these prices and carries more lines. Along with Denon and Marantz.

There was a Panasonic that was also 6.1 for a measly $249.99 Cdn Which obviously price wise is the most attractive despite it's bare wire spring connectors. Future Shop Canada is selling these http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/cla...eb2&catid=1043

Those Yamaha models are identical to what's available in the US. It seems like the Yamahas are priced a little above the exchange rates, which is not what they've done in the past. Keep in mind that the HTR models are basically identical to the RX-V models (except that the HTR-5590 lacks the preouts found in the otherwise identical RX-V1300), the only difference is the distribution channels. HTR models are sold through big box mass merchants, while RX-V models are sold through specialty retailers. In the U.S., the HTR-5640/RX-V440 lists for $300 and the 5660/RX-V640 lists for $500.

That particular Panasonic model gets a lot of praise as an entry level model, and tested very well on S&V's benchmarks. Similar to Kenwood's entry level models from last year, which got similar praise.

I also remember the days when Pioneer made Hitachi's Laser disc players and the Hitachi's were far cheaper even though they were a Pioneer in a Hitachi box(people like the Pionner name more). And it was not long ago that Hitachi VCR's were disguised as Sony VCRs the latter being identical and double the price...different remote.

So is Panasonic a Yammie in disguise? LOL. After reading this month's Sound And Vision the allusion to these shinanigans still goes on.

Thanks,
RGA

Contract manufacturing and rebadging goes on in all industries and has been done as long as we've had consumer electronics. I think that only Pioneer and Magnavox actually manufactured Laserdisc players. Everyone else that sold them just rebadged stuff that came from them, or did their own modifications later on. Similar to how Denon and Yamaha contract with Panasonic to build their DVD transports, and then respec some of the digital circuitry.

The Hitachi/Sony VCR story is pretty funny, but that partnership arose because Sony had no experience with making VHS machines and needed to get a VHS product on the market quickly once it became clear that the Betamax would not survive. The price difference is probably Hitachi extorting Sony for every penny they could squeeze out of them. Once Sony started making their own VHS machines, their VCR prices were not out of line from what others were charging.

I would doubt that the Panasonic is really a Yamaha underneath. If anything, Panasonic usually supplies other vendors. Yamaha has their own manufacturing capacity, but I never recall them doing contract manufacturing for anything other than LSI circuits.

[Geoffcin]

Here's what I do with my TWO separate setups;

I run the digital output from the DVD player into the receiver.

I run the analog output from the DVD player to the Audio setup preamp. This way I can get the DVD-Audio signal in the Audio setup.

The CD is direct into the preamp. Everything else, the VCR, the cable, ect, is fed to the receiver.

Just a word of caution;

If you use your amp with a receiver, and expect it to work the fronts, using the pre out on the receiver, and then let the receiver's amp drive the rest there may be a problem. Unless your reciver and your amp are exactly matched, there will be both a difference in the gain, which you should be able to compensate for with the recivers controls, and a time delay/ out of phase condition between the two that might not be compensateable. I've run into this problem, and it was not to be overcome. The only way around it is to get a seperate 5 channel (or in my case 7 channel) amp, that will drive all the speakers.

[uncooked]

well i would really recommend a yamaha to you. you were talking of the 5640. i own the 5650 and i am really happy with it.

i think the best one for your set up would be the 5660 though....... you were saying that it would be good to have an amp that lets you run you old amp into it. the 5650 lets you do that. it takes the power in and filters it to. and runs it into the fronts plus the 85 watts the yamaha is rated at also. so it would be kicking out alot of power to the 2 fronts.

i was going to get the 5660 and wire in my old akai. but decided against it due to the 250 dollar difference. but i really really regret it now. it seemed like alot of money then but 250 is not very much for that much more power that i wish i had.

[F1]

Actually you have another option. In case you have not got a DVD player, you can get one with DD/DTS decoder built in, like Panasonic RP82 (maybe already discontinued) so you get 5.1 pre analog signals and you still can use your Sugden for the fronts. But the setup may not be as convenient as using receiver and you still have to buy another amp for surround and center.

Anyway, Marantz receivers have pre outs if you want to utilise them. If you're willing to spend a bit? more, I would suggest the 6300 model. Maybe the sound is comparable to the lower models but it has learning remote control for your convenience. It's a big plus for me as I got rid of 4 other remote controls. Marantz recently discontinued X300 series, so bargain more.

[psonic]

RGA, this is my Harman Kardon receiver which I am selling in an effort to make room at my new condo; reading this post I figured I'd offer:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=39794

The only thing it lacks is DTS, which 1) many newer dvd players now decode 2) is only on a limited number of disks

I believe it has a better sound than Yamaha, fuller and not as bright. It also sounds better than the upper end Onkyos I've heard recently, they seem to loose clarity trying to sound warm. It was not a budget model, retailing for $999 in 99. It has gain of -10 to +10db for each channel including subwoofer, fantom is available as is a test tone tool (if you dont have a meter). Here is the manual, you can see more of its features...

http://manuals.harman.com/HK/Owner%2...AVR45%20om.pdf