I'm about fed up with my BD-P1200

[Mr Peabody]

NF, I'm not sure where you are getting your info. I'm not a fanboy of Samsung but I think you are exaggerating your negative view of them. Samsung's Blackjack cellphone was #1 in consumer reports beating out even the I-phone. I haven't seen any bad press either on their TV's. They always seem to be in the top few if not #1.

[nightflier]

Mr.P,

There have been several reviews of Samsung TVs that, while still generally positive, pointed out the heat and energy issues. Also Curtchfield provides energy consumption numbers for most of the TVs they sell, and the Samsungs are not as good as the Panasonics or Sonys, although they do seem to be better than Toshiba's TVs. Consumer Reports has rated Samsung lower than its competitors in reliability and service for a number of their more popular products.

Granted, this is hardly quantified information, but it does give the general impression that Samsung is not as popular as its main competitors in several industry segments. That type of stygma is not something Samsung would want as more B&M stores close and the customers increasingly rely on these reports when choosing brands.

Don't get me wrong, I still think that Samsung makes excellent products (I was pretty darn close to purchasing one of their LCDs not too long ago). That said, a negative review or comment here & there could have serious implications for the brand. Samsung typically sells at a small premium because it does have some excellent specs, but the company competes in very competitive markets where brands like Vizio and LG are nipping at its heels.

[Woochifer]

Well, didn't we just all agree that these devices, much more than the DVD players before them, are starting to become more and more computerized? Try this one on for size, unplug that fancy player in the middle of a firmware update: welcome to your new doorstop. And as far as viruses, it's only a matter of time. It will start as ad-ware, then morph to mall-ware, and eventually it will be viruses. Haven't there already been a few scares with xBox hacks? I know of several proof-of-concept scripts that can hijack certain cell-phones, and these have no where near the processing capability or memory capacity as BR players, not to mention that cell phones are not continuously connected to the internet, like most of today's BR players are. It's not a question of if, but of when.

And this is mere speculation on your part. I was asking you if BSOD, malware, and similar issues have actually cropped up with BD players, since you were talking about those issues as if they already afflict BD players.

But let's be realistic here, how many people today have to install a firmware update on a regular DVD player they pick up at CC or BB? Sure there were early DVD players that had issues, but for many years now, the DVD player has been pretty trouble free.

Again, you're changing the subject. The firmware issues that you see with BD players right now are no different than what you saw with the early DVD players. Are you saying that with a format in its third year, the firmware should be at a level of stability comparable to the DVD format, which is in its 14th year? Or are you unaware that current BD players are only in their third generation?

I was referring to the industry having to go back to basics because of the economy. A trend towards complexity is not in synch with a down economy. I would even go so far as to say that feature bloat is falling into disfavor with the public as unnecessary extravagance - even reviewers are starting to sing that tune. Consumers that don't have a lot to spend will opt for the simpler device that just gets the job done rather than spend more for features that they won't use as often, no matter how cutting edge they may be.

And again, you're ignoring that the additional features with CE hardware is typically accompanied by price declines. By year's end, most BD players will be Profile 2.0 compliant with average prices projected to decline to about $150. This would be more than $100 less than the current average price, while providing higher performance, more features, and likely fewer compatibility issues. How is getting a better player for less money "not in synch with a down economy"?

Java is very hackable, and the content also comes from those downloaded firmware updates. Are you really sure nothing is going on behind the scenes when your computer is permanently connected to the internet? So how about your BR player, which we're already established is becoming more a computer, right?

And how many consumers will choose to enable that internet connection? Maybe with a wi-fi connection, the connection will be permanent. But, unless you know how the firmware gets updated and how files get executed, your point about the hackability of a BD player is again pure speculation.

I seriously doubt this is how the marketing departments at Sony, iTunes, and Netflix are looking at it. They would like nothing more than to turn that permanently connected Java server into your source for entertainment, no matter what type it is. Take that profile 2.0, for example, when you're connected to multiple users and these people can send files to your player from theirs. How secure do you think that is? Even if you're connected to just "a few friends", they are also connected to "a few friends" who are then also connected to "a few friends"... Pretty soon, you're connected to a whole lot of friends' friends you really don't know very well and who may be very far away. Here's another thought: how much storage does profile 2.0 require? How much data is that? And collectively, how much data is that with all your "friends"? And how much of that data is "suspicious"?

And those features you mention are outside of the Profile 2.0 specs. BD Live enables interactivity, but it's not a file exchanging medium.

Samsung has several issues. They are consistently rated lower than their competitors in consumer reports for service and reliability. Their financials are also not as strong as their competitors.

Like I asked, in what product areas, ALL of them? Last time I checked, Consumer Reports does not rate OEM components like optical drives, memory chips, and LCD panels -- products where Samsung ranks at or near the top in global sales.

And when talking about Samsung's financials, are you comparing apples to apples in terms of the time period?

Finally, the engineering behind their products is consistently below their competitors.

That explains why Sony lets Samsung do all of their LCD panel R&D? Sony got forced out of the LCD OEM market because companies like Samsung had moved so far ahead of them in panel development.

I also think that Samsung fares better when marketing their products in B&M stores, where the netter picture, faster load times, and other features they may be able to bring to the table can be demonstrated. But as B&Ms start to become scarcer and online is the new market place, reputation becomes much more important and Samsung is slightly behind there.

Behind who? On the AVS Forum, Samsung's plasma TVs are now very often regarded as equal to the Panasonics, and their newest LCD TVs are very often mentioned among the best on the market right now.

Professional reviewers won't help them here either, because those will be sure to mention the shortcomings, even if minor, and that is what the consumers will remember when making their online purchase decision.

So, why is then that Samsung's A950 series ranked among the highest rated LCD TVs last year on just about every review site? And if Samsung is so festooned with shortcomings, then why do they rank #1 in global TV sales, #1 in LCD panel shipments, and #2 in plasma panel shipments?

Of course the closing of CC, one of their major B&M retailers, isn't going to be good for their bottom line either.

CC is a major retailer, but far from irreplaceable. It's not like they had any territorial exclusivity with Samsung products. Sales that formerly went to CC will now go to Best Buy, Costco, Sam's Club, Target, Walmart, and any number of local stores that carry Samsung products.

[Mr Peabody]

Some years back I wouldn't have bought Samsung for a big ticket item. From my perspective they started out as an entry or budget manufacturer and now can compete with the likes of Sony and Panasonic. So I guess it's how you look at it. Sony has a good rep and can't seem to do no wrong but I've had enough bad products from them that they are toward the bottom of any future purchase brand list. I have to accept that Samsung can put out a sub par product but you also should accept they aren't alone by no means.

NF, you have me wondering now. We have to pay big money every year to keep virus protection and all other kinds of protection up to date, if we are going to have home entertainment products hooked to the web what is going to protect them from these things? Computer is definitely not my strong point but if products can be hooked to the web with no protection you have to wonder if this virus protection isn't some kind of racket. Or, maybe the viruses are Windows enviroment and home entertainment are something else. But I bet if some one was so inclined the something else would be just as vonerable.

[nightflier]

And this is mere speculation on your part. I was asking you if BSOD, malware, and similar issues have actually cropped up with BD players, since you were talking about those issues as if they already afflict BD players.

Well then you misunderstood. I said that they could one day crop up there. Granted, I was being facetious about the car example, but the hackability of BR players isn't too far off and thus neither is the potential for abuse. It's my prediction.

Again, you're changing the subject. The firmware issues that you see with BD players right now are no different than what you saw with the early DVD players. Are you saying that with a format in its third year, the firmware should be at a level of stability comparable to the DVD format, which is in its 14th year? Or are you unaware that current BD players are only in their third generation?

I didn't say there was a definite time-frame, I'm just saying it's not what I'm expecting and times have changed. Back when DVD players were 3 years old, there was no internet and permanently connected systems what took a few years to settle down then should not take so long now, especially considering how much more common firmware updates are today. More importantly, what I see is a trend towards more firmware dependency over shorter time spans, very much unlike the trend away from that back when DVDs were a new technology. Back then the hope was to eventually eliminate firmware issues, now the trend seems to accelerate their frequency and necessity.

And again, you're ignoring that the additional features with CE hardware is typically accompanied by price declines. By year's end, most BD players will be Profile 2.0 compliant with average prices projected to decline to about $150. This would be more than $100 less than the current average price, while providing higher performance, more features, and likely fewer compatibility issues. How is getting a better player for less money "not in synch with a down economy"?

Well I will respectfully disagree with that. I think that additional features are going to be less popular as people look to simplify their lives as a result of struggling through this economic downturn. But we won't know that 'til it happens, so we'll just have to wait it out.

And how many consumers will choose to enable that internet connection? Maybe with a wi-fi connection, the connection will be permanent. But, unless you know how the firmware gets updated and how files get executed, your point about the hackability of a BD player is again pure speculation.

I'll have to dig around the web, but I distinctly remember reading that there were already proof-of-concept hacks out there. By the way, hacking firmware is a piece of cake, all it takes is a working knowledge of machine language and there's a lot of hackers who can do it. I've hacked firmware on computers myself. Considering all the hacking tools that are already available, it hardly takes a genius to get into it, manipulate it and re-design it.

And those features you mention are outside of the Profile 2.0 specs. BD Live enables interactivity, but it's not a file exchanging medium.

Not entirely. The spec only specifies guidelines, but not limits. Any capable programmer, especially one with malicious intent, can extend the capabilities beyond what the spec recommends. More importantly, this will develop first with legitimate uses like added content, then it will devolve into adware, and not much later into spyware and viruses. Don't get me wrong, Java is a beautifully structured language with practically unlimited features, but in the wrong hands it can be particularly dangerous. And as far as file exchange, that is precisely what Profile 2.0 does - if you can send & receive text messages, then you can also send & receive scripts and well, it's pretty evolutionary from there.

Like I asked, in what product areas, ALL of them? Last time I checked, Consumer Reports does not rate OEM components like optical drives, memory chips, and LCD panels -- products where Samsung ranks at or near the top in global sales.

I was referring to the consumer products that they do review. If Samsung's brad & butter is in OEM products, then that's a different story.

And when talking about Samsung's financials, are you comparing apples to apples in terms of the time period?

I don't understand what you're inferring, here.

That explains why Sony lets Samsung do all of their LCD panel R&D? Sony got forced out of the LCD OEM market because companies like Samsung had moved so far ahead of them in panel development.

That may very well be but Sony's LCDs are more energy efficient and produce less heat nonetheless. So either they also purchase OEM parts from other manufacturers or they re-engineer what they get from Samsung.

Behind who? On the AVS Forum, Samsung's plasma TVs are now very often regarded as equal to the Panasonics, and their newest LCD TVs are very often mentioned among the best on the market right now.

Yes, everybody raves about the latest Samsung products and the fantastic performance. But when it comes to older products or their lower-tier stuff, the accolades go to Sony, Panasonic, and others. Also, these forums don't consider the heat and energy issues, which over time also affect reliability.

So, why is then that Samsung's A950 series ranked among the highest rated LCD TVs last year on just about every review site?

See my previous comment.

And if Samsung is so festooned with shortcomings, then why do they rank #1 in global TV sales, #1 in LCD panel shipments, and #2 in plasma panel shipments?

People don't always look at the less sexy factors like longer-term reliability issues. People are always enamored with the latest and greatest, and Samsung doesn't short-change on features or performance, but that comes at a price. Now I'm certainly not saying they are pathetic, but this is still a very competitive market and there are issues.

CC is a major retailer, but far from irreplaceable. It's not like they had any territorial exclusivity with Samsung products. Sales that formerly went to CC will now go to Best Buy, Costco, Sam's Club, Target, Walmart, and any number of local stores that carry Samsung products.

Well BB, despite it's strong financials last quarter is still laying off people, you said yourself that Costco is considering dropping CE altogether. Target Sam's and Wallmart only carry the lower end products from Samsung. The fact is that there are fewer and fewer B&M stores out there for CE products and this market will likely continue to move online. And online, the reputation is much more important because it can so easily be accessed, even on the same computer screen as your shopping cart.

Bottom line: Samsung may be #1 in certain areas, but it also has issues. I can probably find just as many links to negative reviews as you can find positive ones, but that's not really representative anyhow. I'm not dismissing the brand outright, but I will say that Samsung strengths such as additional features, superior picture, loading speed, etc, are much more impressive in a live demo than as posted in a spec list on a web page.

[Mr Peabody]

It is interesting that while CC is out of business and BB is laying off, Amazon had a record Christmas selling season. Costco who sells memberships to supposedly give the members a discount can't compete with electronics and movies. I don't know if it's true but I was told Costco's margin on all products is 10%, if there isn't 10% to be made on a product then I don't see selling it either. But, if they sold high end products for 10% above cost we'd all be in there.

[pixelthis]

Some years back I wouldn't have bought Samsung for a big ticket item. From my perspective they started out as an entry or budget manufacturer and now can compete with the likes of Sony and Panasonic. So I guess it's how you look at it. Sony has a good rep and can't seem to do no wrong but I've had enough bad products from them that they are toward the bottom of any future purchase brand list. I have to accept that Samsung can put out a sub par product but you also should accept they aren't alone by no means.

NF, you have me wondering now. We have to pay big money every year to keep virus protection and all other kinds of protection up to date, if we are going to have home entertainment products hooked to the web what is going to protect them from these things? Computer is definitely not my strong point but if products can be hooked to the web with no protection you have to wonder if this virus protection isn't some kind of racket. Or, maybe the viruses are Windows enviroment and home entertainment are something else. But I bet if some one was so inclined the something else would be just as vonerable.

Your veiw of Samsung is rather parochial and shows how consumer minded our country has become.
Samsung is a major industrial giant, and have been for decades.
If you have a CD/DVD drive in anything odds are Samsung made it
Ships, high tech, you name it, Samsung makes it.
The one thing I have fault with Samsung is the way their industrial quality sometimes leaks through their consumer products.
AS for a virus infecting the firmware of a consumer device, dont see how it could happen.
Their OS is different, usually, and would require a specifically designed bug,
and then you would have to breech the super secure connection that is the only
time something is allowed into your machine.
And for what? For what purpose?.
As for the analog reaction to everything becoming computerized, some people didnt stop with horses when cars appeared until they had to.
Some people are contrary, its their nature.
But teh computerization of information has happened, the genie is outta the bottle...
AND ITS NOT GOING BACK IN.

[Woochifer]

I didn't say there was a definite time-frame, I'm just saying it's not what I'm expecting and times have changed. Back when DVD players were 3 years old, there was no internet and permanently connected systems what took a few years to settle down then should not take so long now, especially considering how much more common firmware updates are today. More importantly, what I see is a trend towards more firmware dependency over shorter time spans, very much unlike the trend away from that back when DVDs were a new technology. Back then the hope was to eventually eliminate firmware issues, now the trend seems to accelerate their frequency and necessity.

Actually, I think the opposite will be true as BD players move into the 4th generation models, and disc producers figure out how to author BDs that don't trip up on older players. The big firmware issues with DVD players occurred during the early years of the format. You rarely hear about disc compatibility issues anymore with DVD players.

Well I will respectfully disagree with that. I think that additional features are going to be less popular as people look to simplify their lives as a result of struggling through this economic downturn. But we won't know that 'til it happens, so we'll just have to wait it out.

In an economic downturn, people get back to basics and I interpret that as getting greater value for the money. Home entertainment is actually one of the areas that analysts project will grow during an economic downturn because home-based activities cost less than going out.

I'll have to dig around the web, but I distinctly remember reading that there were already proof-of-concept hacks out there. By the way, hacking firmware is a piece of cake, all it takes is a working knowledge of machine language and there's a lot of hackers who can do it. I've hacked firmware on computers myself. Considering all the hacking tools that are already available, it hardly takes a genius to get into it, manipulate it and re-design it.

The hacks were to break the copy protection so that HD torrent files could be created. This primarily involved the software-based BD-ROM players, which had substandard security for the encryption keys. Malware's not going to spread unless that hack either requires user intervention or comes packaged with a BD. The range of activity and exposure using a BD player is far less than what an average computer user encounters just surfing the web.

That may very well be but Sony's LCDs are more energy efficient and produce less heat nonetheless. So either they also purchase OEM parts from other manufacturers or they re-engineer what they get from Samsung.

Actually, Sony and Samsung LCD panels are made on the same assembly lines at jointly owned facilities, and Samsung producing and doing the R&D on the panels. I believe that a lot of the TVs are also made at jointly owned facilities. Samsung saved Sony's backside in the flat panel market. Sony was heavily invested in LCoS and CRT RPTVs, but when the market went to flat panels, Sony needed a development partner just to stay in the game with flat panels. They weren't going to make a lot of money just rebadging somebody else's LCD and plasma TVs.

Yes, everybody raves about the latest Samsung products and the fantastic performance. But when it comes to older products or their lower-tier stuff, the accolades go to Sony, Panasonic, and others. Also, these forums don't consider the heat and energy issues, which over time also affect reliability.

Sony has been partnered with Samsung on the LCD side for at least four years now.

People don't always look at the less sexy factors like longer-term reliability issues. People are always enamored with the latest and greatest, and Samsung doesn't short-change on features or performance, but that comes at a price. Now I'm certainly not saying they are pathetic, but this is still a very competitive market and there are issues.

Samsung's TV reliability has remained about the same for years. The difference is that the rest of the industry greatly improved. Their reliability used to be near the top of the industry, but they've fallen back into the middle of the pack because everybody else made moved up.

Well BB, despite it's strong financials last quarter is still laying off people, you said yourself that Costco is considering dropping CE altogether.

And if you read the articles, those layoffs do not affect on-site store employees. It's primarily at their corporate headquarters. BB can see the deteriorating market conditions, and they're adapting. CC went out of business because they did not.

Target Sam's and Wallmart only carry the lower end products from Samsung. The fact is that there are fewer and fewer B&M stores out there for CE products and this market will likely continue to move online. And online, the reputation is much more important because it can so easily be accessed, even on the same computer screen as your shopping cart.

And online transactions still account for far less than 10% of all retail purchases, and this includes websites hosted by the major retail chains. There are fewer B&M stores, but that also means that the surviving stores just grow bigger and bigger. Market consolidation in the B&M field does not mean that the bulk of the market suddenly shifts online. The vast majority of consumers still prefer to deal with a physical point of purchase, despite what myopic tech editors (many of whom were already hyping up the demise of the retail store during the dotcom boom) would lead people to believe.

Bottom line: Samsung may be #1 in certain areas, but it also has issues. I can probably find just as many links to negative reviews as you can find positive ones, but that's not really representative anyhow. I'm not dismissing the brand outright, but I will say that Samsung strengths such as additional features, superior picture, loading speed, etc, are much more impressive in a live demo than as posted in a spec list on a web page.

Nobody's perfect, but Samsung must be doing something right if their market share is #1 overall. I don't see how the sales rankings on web sales would deviate significantly from what gets sold at stores. Samsung's specs are also not all too different from the competition, and they do a ton of marketing. Compared to the Japanese CE giants, Samsung is also currently in an advantageous position because their currency is not especially strong compared to the yen. That's why Samsung and LG are not projecting multibillion losses this year like Panasonic, Sony, Toshiba, and Hitachi.

[nightflier]

Wooch, you know a lot more about the TV industry, and you bring up very good points. I'm not so sure that Samsung is as solid as you claim, but I also have less information to go on. Perhaps you're right, and for Samsung's sake, I sure hope so. But even with consolidation, it's still a very competitive market with small margins, so no matter what the companies in it will have to continue to innovate.

Regarding the economy, I don't agree that additional features is what people want in a down economy. This is not saying that the CE sector won't do well in this economy, but I'm going to stand by my belief that feature bloat will abate. Call it human nature, but when money is tight, people don't want to have to worry about extra complexity, they just want the damn thing to work so that they can enjoy it and perhaps temporarily put their worries aside.

Regarding the risks, I still think this is significant for CE gear that is continually connected to the internet. I've seen hacks and back-door scripts on computers that would scare the most savvy engineer. They require very little memory, processing power, and speed, but they can do great damage. BR players are still very new, but I still maintain that as this technology matures, the risks will increase. I can also go into detail about the ways that Profile 2.0 and Firmware are linked and how this can be exploited, but this isn't the place. Anyhow, let's wait and see what happens.

[Mr Peabody]

I don't know what percentage of sales internet vs B&M would be but it says something when B&M are going out of business and cutting back while Amazon has a record sales year. It is also interesting that a news story came out saying movie box office sales have been up significantly. I find that odd because, one, the economy, and second, I couldn't even tell you a single movie at the theater now. I guess I shouldn't admit that, it just adds to the evidence that I am out here somewhere in left field.

I think the CE companies mentallity is that people want features and some people may think they do but how many of them can operate the item when they get it home is the question. You get on here and I think we get a sense of normalcy from one another but if you all have friends that aren't audio/video enthusiasts, just what we'd call "Average Joe" you will get a taste of reality. Many of the people I talk to on the bus or around work don't have HD, don't buy the cable higher features like DVR or On Demand. I find myself sounding like a salesman because I'm just trying to educate them as to what's out there. I am in disbelief as to how many people just want a picture, to watch something and don't even care about resolution. Of course, a lot of guys for some reason are really into big screens but fall short on the quality aspect. With all that being said I'm sure this differs with age group and geographical location and economic stature. But maybe not, maybe it's just exposure and priority.

[Mr Peabody]

When I switch to bitstream I noticed I didn't see "Tru-HD" indicator come on. When I use PCM I hear an improvement but speakers balances are off some, I guess the Marantz doesn't do any post processing. You can't have everything. I checked the specs of the 1200 again and it says "NO" it does not bitstream any HD audio format. I could sware I read it did. I guess there was some reason I kept my player in PCM. Anyway the fog has lifted. I'm going to have to make a change. I want to be able to enjoy HD audio and control it. As in an earlier post I really am not sure which way to go in a player. The guys offered to let me borrow a player. I can't see paying the money for a Marantz 7003 when it lacks so much features. Also I wonder on these bitstream only players if they can still pass uncompressed PCM. I'm not talking any HD audio, I mean the original plain uncompressed PCM that came on some earlier Blu-ray movies. I'm leaning toward maybe bringing home a BD-05 but even that is more expensive and lacks in features compared to the s550. At this time I don't have internet by my HT system but I really need to get a wireless network system set up. Firmware upgrades would be so much easier and the method I was using to network for my daughter's computer is failing me. I'm thinking 2.0 should be something to get even if I'm not ready for it now.

Any direction would be appreciated and if anyone knows where I can find some Blu-ray reviews other than CNET, that would really be appreciated.

You all probably remember that upsampling of standard DVD is important. I really wonder if these tests on the discs really equate to good viewing. The Pioneer didn't do so well on standard DVD test discs but Bill says his has a very good picture.

[pixelthis]

When I switch to bitstream I noticed I didn't see "Tru-HD" indicator come on. When I use PCM I hear an improvement but speakers balances are off some, I guess the Marantz doesn't do any post processing. You can't have everything. I checked the specs of the 1200 again and it says "NO" it does not bitstream any HD audio format. I could sware I read it did. I guess there was some reason I kept my player in PCM. Anyway the fog has lifted. I'm going to have to make a change. I want to be able to enjoy HD audio and control it. As in an earlier post I really am not sure which way to go in a player. The guys offered to let me borrow a player. I can't see paying the money for a Marantz 7003 when it lacks so much features. Also I wonder on these bitstream only players if they can still pass uncompressed PCM. I'm not talking any HD audio, I mean the original plain uncompressed PCM that came on some earlier Blu-ray movies. I'm leaning toward maybe bringing home a BD-05 but even that is more expensive and lacks in features compared to the s550. At this time I don't have internet by my HT system but I really need to get a wireless network system set up. Firmware upgrades would be so much easier and the method I was using to network for my daughter's computer is failing me. I'm thinking 2.0 should be something to get even if I'm not ready for it now.

Any direction would be appreciated and if anyone knows where I can find some Blu-ray reviews other than CNET, that would really be appreciated.

You all probably remember that upsampling of standard DVD is important. I really wonder if these tests on the discs really equate to good viewing. The Pioneer didn't do so well on standard DVD test discs but Bill says his has a very good picture.

JUST remember when buying Korean, the govt there seized the korean stock market a few weeks ago, and North Korea is misbehaving, I AM JUST SAYING.
I would go Panasonic, its a quality company and I was reading that their players have decoders and do bitstream.
Dont know why playback of SD DVD is so important to you, its never going to look
that good after you've watched a Blu disc.
Bout all I can say on that score is that my Sony BLU does fine on SD DVD.

[02audionoob]

I don't know if this helps, but most standard DVDs look very nice on my Sony BDP-S350.

[nightflier]

I know this is a minor factor, but my decision is also swayed by what other brands I have in my system so that the remote can control more than one device. It was one of the reasons I've stuck with Panasonic TVs (my first DVD player was Panasonic, and my PVR was too).

Of course, it helps that Panasonic makes decent players.

[Mr Peabody]

Funny you should mentione that, the guys where I buy most of my stuff in town offered to let me borrow a Marantz 7003. I can't find any reviews and I know it doesn't have the Realto like it's big brother. I can't pass up a free audition though. It will really have to blow me away to pull the trigger. I'm really leaning toward picking up one of those Pioneer bd51's for cheap. It seems with the firmware update it's a great performer and a killer price compared to what it was. My only hesitation is the size of the thing. I like well built but the shelf I have isn't very high. I already had to raise shelves when I got the 8003 which is a bulky preamp.

[pixelthis]

Funny you should mentione that, the guys where I buy most of my stuff in town offered to let me borrow a Marantz 7003. I can't find any reviews and I know it doesn't have the Realto like it's big brother. I can't pass up a free audition though. It will really have to blow me away to pull the trigger. I'm really leaning toward picking up one of those Pioneer bd51's for cheap. It seems with the firmware update it's a great performer and a killer price compared to what it was. My only hesitation is the size of the thing. I like well built but the shelf I have isn't very high. I already had to raise shelves when I got the 8003 which is a bulky preamp.

Five will getcha ten that its "badge engineered"
Finding out the OEM will help a great deal.

[Mr Peabody]

That would be nice if there was a source for who builds what. That still isn't much to go on as a manufacturer building for another company has to go by the companies specs. I saw a blogger point out that the new NAD T587 back panel matches an LG model. To contradict myself knowing this unit may be build by LG would give me pause. I've also heard that NAD's DVD players weren't anything to write home about. Remember that's rumor. I had an LG DVD player and hated it. Nothing wrong with reliability, I just didn't like the picture. I returned a defective Sony and opted for the LG. The LG's picture paled in comparison to the Sony. And even though it was "upsampling" you couldn't tell it did anything. Now that I think of it I should have tried 480i and let my Sony TV upsample it. My TV actually gives the best VHS picture I've ever seen. How's that for rambling?

[pixelthis]

That would be nice if there was a source for who builds what. That still isn't much to go on as a manufacturer building for another company has to go by the companies specs. I saw a blogger point out that the new NAD T587 back panel matches an LG model. To contradict myself knowing this unit may be build by LG would give me pause. I've also heard that NAD's DVD players weren't anything to write home about. Remember that's rumor. I had an LG DVD player and hated it. Nothing wrong with reliability, I just didn't like the picture. I returned a defective Sony and opted for the LG. The LG's picture paled in comparison to the Sony. And even though it was "upsampling" you couldn't tell it did anything. Now that I think of it I should have tried 480i and let my Sony TV upsample it. My TV actually gives the best VHS picture I've ever seen. How's that for rambling?

EXELENT, GM couldn't do a better job of having his train of thought go off the tracks.
NAD went in with Rotel and harmon in building an industrial park in China around the turn of the century, the first batches had parts rattling around in them.
So unless somethings changed they arent Korean, nothing to write home about either.
I was able to tell that Tosh builds players for Onkyo by the menu system(and the lack of any Onkyo quality whatsoever).
I saw an RCA with an identical faceplate and jackplate to a yamaha 5 disc, both probably came from the same factory.
HARD TO TELL SOMETIMES, you used to be bond, JAMES BOND,
figure it out.

[nightflier]

Someone should compile a list of OEM-probable manufacturers. Maybe there is already such a list on the web?

[GMichael]

EXELENT, GM couldn't do a better job of having his train of thought go off the tracks.

Thanks. Having you try to put me down only makes me look all that much better.

[Mr Peabody]

Did I mention the new NAD T587 is supposed to be fast, as fast as a DVD player on loading and playing? This looks like a break through piece. I'm using my daughter's 1500 and letting her use my 1200. She only has a TV and the 1500 at least will bitstream. I don't think the picture is as good but it could be my imagination.

[pixelthis]

[QUOTE=GMichael]Thanks. Having you try to put me down only makes me look all that much better.

[Woochifer]

Wooch, you know a lot more about the TV industry, and you bring up very good points. I'm not so sure that Samsung is as solid as you claim, but I also have less information to go on. Perhaps you're right, and for Samsung's sake, I sure hope so. But even with consolidation, it's still a very competitive market with small margins, so no matter what the companies in it will have to continue to innovate.

Like I said, Samsung is basically sitting at the top of the heap right now. Qualitywise, they might be perceived as slipping, only because everybody else has improved while they have not. A few years ago, Samsung's failure rate ranked among the lowest in the industry. Now, their failure rate has remained steady, while the average has gone down considerably.

Regarding the economy, I don't agree that additional features is what people want in a down economy. This is not saying that the CE sector won't do well in this economy, but I'm going to stand by my belief that feature bloat will abate. Call it human nature, but when money is tight, people don't want to have to worry about extra complexity, they just want the damn thing to work so that they can enjoy it and perhaps temporarily put their worries aside.

Again, feature bloat just goes with the development of any electronics format. In a down economy, people want lower prices and with Blu-ray players that's what they will get. Just so happens that these lower priced players will also come with Profile 2.0 features that include internet connectivity.

Regarding the risks, I still think this is significant for CE gear that is continually connected to the internet. I've seen hacks and back-door scripts on computers that would scare the most savvy engineer. They require very little memory, processing power, and speed, but they can do great damage. BR players are still very new, but I still maintain that as this technology matures, the risks will increase. I can also go into detail about the ways that Profile 2.0 and Firmware are linked and how this can be exploited, but this isn't the place. Anyhow, let's wait and see what happens.

The risks increase, but there's a huge leap between proof-of-concept exploits and ones that are out in the wild.

[nightflier]

...there's a huge leap between proof-of-concept exploits and ones that are out in the wild.

Actually, I followed two viruses last month that did almost overnight. Granted, these were computer viruses, but it was a very fast turnaround. Another factor is that as the technology matures and more people own it, the time-to-net also gets progressively smaller.

[Woochifer]

That would be nice if there was a source for who builds what. That still isn't much to go on as a manufacturer building for another company has to go by the companies specs. I saw a blogger point out that the new NAD T587 back panel matches an LG model. To contradict myself knowing this unit may be build by LG would give me pause. I've also heard that NAD's DVD players weren't anything to write home about. Remember that's rumor. I had an LG DVD player and hated it. Nothing wrong with reliability, I just didn't like the picture. I returned a defective Sony and opted for the LG. The LG's picture paled in comparison to the Sony. And even though it was "upsampling" you couldn't tell it did anything. Now that I think of it I should have tried 480i and let my Sony TV upsample it. My TV actually gives the best VHS picture I've ever seen. How's that for rambling?

Another issue is that the suppliers constantly change. For components such as DVD or BD drives, there are only a handful of companies that make them. Keep in mind that LG is the #2 OEM optical drive manufacturer in the world (Samsung is #1), so it's inevitable that units from them will wind up in someone else's gear.

But, even if NAD and LG both use LG OEM components, there might be a lot of other differences between the units. For example, Panasonic built DVD players for Denon and Yamaha. All three companies used Panny drives, but the other component specs were different even though Panasonic was the manufacturer in all cases.