I'm about fed up with my BD-P1200

[Mr Peabody]

Occasionally I will rent a Blu-ray disc and it won't play. I'll call up Samsung and they send me out the latest firmware fix. It takes care of the problem but I've already had to watch the movie on SD, put the time and effort into getting the fix, all just aggrevation. This last time this happened was when I rented the movie Space Chimps for the kiddies. They really liked it so after getting the BR fix I bought the movie. Well, this time, even after a fix, it don't play. I was doing a bit of looking around with swapping that player out in the back of my mind and discovered that Samsung has a rep for disc incompatibility. So much for the 2500, as it was in this review the statement was made. After this many generations how can they not have addressed this issue in their players?

So now I'm not sure what to do as far as what players to put on my radar. The Sony s550 could be a contender but it seems a bit slow. Most of the players now have improved on the standard disc playback. The dmp-35 maybe but from what I've seen so far Panasonic is keeping their player's prices up. Amazon is blowing out Pioneer BD-p51's at $289.00. I'll have to do some checking on that one. I noticed that even players not out yet are coming with Bonus View version 1.1 where we've had 2.0 out for awhile. Anyone know the difference between 1.1 and 2.0?

Isn't it a shame to already be looking for an upgrade when most don't even have a BR player.

[02audionoob]

When I was shopping for a Blu-ray player, I wanted the Samsung until I saw a note on the box that said it doesn't play DVD+R. That shouldn't really be an issue, but it gave me pause. I bought a Sony.

[pixelthis]

Occasionally I will rent a Blu-ray disc and it won't play. I'll call up Samsung and they send me out the latest firmware fix. It takes care of the problem but I've already had to watch the movie on SD, put the time and effort into getting the fix, all just aggrevation. This last time this happened was when I rented the movie Space Chimps for the kiddies. They really liked it so after getting the BR fix I bought the movie. Well, this time, even after a fix, it don't play. I was doing a bit of looking around with swapping that player out in the back of my mind and discovered that Samsung has a rep for disc incompatibility. So much for the 2500, as it was in this review the statement was made. After this many generations how can they not have addressed this issue in their players?

So now I'm not sure what to do as far as what players to put on my radar. The Sony s550 could be a contender but it seems a bit slow. Most of the players now have improved on the standard disc playback. The dmp-35 maybe but from what I've seen so far Panasonic is keeping their player's prices up. Amazon is blowing out Pioneer BD-p51's at $289.00. I'll have to do some checking on that one. I noticed that even players not out yet are coming with Bonus View version 1.1 where we've had 2.0 out for awhile. Anyone know the difference between 1.1 and 2.0?

Isn't it a shame to already be looking for an upgrade when most don't even have a BR player.

The only time I had trouble playing a disc that was terminal on my Sony was a rental disc,
and after looking I noticed that fingerprints were all over it, cleaned it and it worked fine.
LOAD time doesnt seem that long, I put the disc in well beforehand and its usually ready to go.
Why not one of those DENON universal players you were talking about in another thread?
A AUDIO ENTHUSIAST such as yourself would love the SACD/ BLU ombination.

[Woochifer]

Occasionally I will rent a Blu-ray disc and it won't play. I'll call up Samsung and they send me out the latest firmware fix. It takes care of the problem but I've already had to watch the movie on SD, put the time and effort into getting the fix, all just aggrevation. This last time this happened was when I rented the movie Space Chimps for the kiddies. They really liked it so after getting the BR fix I bought the movie. Well, this time, even after a fix, it don't play. I was doing a bit of looking around with swapping that player out in the back of my mind and discovered that Samsung has a rep for disc incompatibility. So much for the 2500, as it was in this review the statement was made. After this many generations how can they not have addressed this issue in their players?

The compatibility issues with the first gen players, and the 1200 in particular have been discussed on many many discussion boards. Samsung has also been slow with getting the firmware updates out. Although I would guess that you could find the firmware fix on their website and use it to burn the update onto a DVD.

One huge advantage with the PS3 is how often Sony updates the firmware. In addition, the PS3's built-in wi-fi makes the updates ridiculously easy. All the other standalone BD players with internet connectivity still use ethernet ports, although I read that new BD models with built-in wi-fi will start trickling into stores very soon.

So now I'm not sure what to do as far as what players to put on my radar. The Sony s550 could be a contender but it seems a bit slow. Most of the players now have improved on the standard disc playback. The dmp-35 maybe but from what I've seen so far Panasonic is keeping their player's prices up. Amazon is blowing out Pioneer BD-p51's at $289.00. I'll have to do some checking on that one. I noticed that even players not out yet are coming with Bonus View version 1.1 where we've had 2.0 out for awhile. Anyone know the difference between 1.1 and 2.0?

For disc loading speed, the PS3 and the Sharp AQUOS BD players do well.

As far as Panny goes, their list prices remain high, but the street prices are a lot lower. At CES, they already announced the replacement models for the DMP-BD35 and 55, and those models only arrived in stores over the summer. When the 35 and 55 arrived, I remember seeing Costco selling the previous models for $220 and the 35 for $250.

The primary difference between 1.1 and 2.0 is the internet connectivity and compatibility with BD Live features. The DMP-BD35 requires a SD memory card to enable the Profile 2.0 features since it lacks any onboard RAM. I have discs enabled for BD Live, and most of the stuff I've seen so far is underwhelming. Some stuff sounds cool, like the ability to have "community" screenings where everyone watches a movie at the same time and interacts with each other in real time. But, I've yet to try it out.

Isn't it a shame to already be looking for an upgrade when most don't even have a BR player.

Ah, the life of an early adopter! We procrastinators value and appreciate the service that you provide for us!

[GMichael]

Ah, the life of an early adopter! We procrastinators value and appreciate the service that you provide for us!

Whoa! Talk about, below the belt.

A solid hit right to his wallet.

[bobsticks]

Ah, the life of an early adopter! We procrastinators value and appreciate the service that you provide for us!

I'd give you a Greenie if I could.

[Mr Peabody]

Reviews show the Pioneer BD-51/05 did not fare well in the standard DVD tests, so off the list. The one I'm really interested in but can't bring myself to spend that much, even if I found a deal, is the new NAD.

I'm not really interested in the BD Live stuff but I wonder if that's the problem with the disc incompatibility. Maybe the player needs to be fully compatible not to have issues.

Wooch, , glad I can be of service. Again, my life has more meaning.

[musicman1999]

hello mr p

i see that you mentioned the pioneer 51, i bought one about a month ago and i have been very pleased with it so far. on the audio side i use the multi channel outputs as my anthem does not do hdmi. the 51 has 4 wolfson dacs so the audio is in good hands but it does not decode dts master audio over the analogs as yet but that is coming in march.on the video side it has a stunning bluray picture, clearly better than my ps3. for dvd performance i thought is was very good on the few discs that i tried, it is not my main dvd player but it was the only upscaling player that has come close to my moon dvd player for picture quality and the moon retailed at about 8 times what the pioneer did.it does have a bass management issue(fixed crossover) but should not affect you, because you would bitstream.
worth a look for sure.

bill

[bobsticks]

Good to see you around bill.

[Mr Peabody]

Hi Bill, it is good to see you again. I thought the 51 had on board decoding. How do you get updates from Pioneer?

[nightflier]

Doesn't it bother anyone how often firmware updates are needed? I mean some of these are for new features, I know, but a lot of these are fixes for problems that come up along the way. In essence we're all beta-testers. It used to be the case that there was an understanding that certain industries should not be hobbled by such shoddy manufacturing, and audio was in that category. I guess that is no more.

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the need for keeping products up to date and to be able to add new features, but with these BR players it seems to be needed every other week. To me that smacks of shoddy manufacturing. What's next, virus scanners for BR players? I'm waiting to see the first mallware app to hit these internet-connected systems. If possible, I'd focus on those products that need the fewest firmware updates over time.

Another thing that this thread makes abundantly clear is that BR players become disposable after just a couple of years. Now I'm sure that if one were to spend $2500 on a payer, that would be disheartening, but it certainly makes the value of these players a lot less stable over time. I kind of feel sorry for all those people who got suckered into paying full price for the Denon 5900/3900 players, that the magazines were raving about just a few years ago - these are selling for a fraction of their former glory on the used market. But even at the lower-price points, what are we really gaining by paying an extra $200 for a player because it has ver.X of a software capability as opposed to ver.Y?

[kexodusc]

Doesn't it bother anyone how often firmware updates are needed? I mean some of these are for new features, I know, but a lot of these are fixes for problems that come up along the way. In essence we're all beta-testers. It used to be the case that there was an understanding that certain industries should not be hobbled by such shoddy manufacturing, and audio was in that category. I guess that is no more.

.

I used to think this way, but not any more. When I look at BluRay's, we're really talking about computers, software, and very large amounts of data. Most of it is licensed software code from people like Dolby, DTS, whoever owns the code for whatever video format is on BluRay, and then there's all the extra/add-on software stuff like BD Live, etc...It's not right to hold Samsung responsible for Dolby or Sony's proprietary technology upgrade schedule.

Updating how well the software works, or modifying the drivers for existing hardware to work better with the software that is available over time is a value added IMO, not a sign of poor quality. There's so much that can go wrong in code, and so much more that can always be tweaked for slightly better performance, that expecting perfection in these players for a format that is perpetually changing, evolving, and becoming more complex is just unrealistic.

I think you might have a point in that BluRay hardware/software might be trying to be too much, too fast for too many different people, but I guess that's the price of progress...

[Rich-n-Texas]

Doesn't it bother anyone how often firmware updates are needed? I mean some of these are for new features, I know, but a lot of these are fixes for problems that come up along the way. In essence we're all beta-testers. It used to be the case that there was an understanding that certain industries should not be hobbled by such shoddy manufacturing, and audio was in that category. I guess that is no more.

I wholeheartedly agreed with this, but then...

I used to think this way, but not any more. When I look at BluRay's, we're really talking about computers, software, and very large amounts of data. Most of it is licensed software code from people like Dolby, DTS, whoever owns the code for whatever video format is on BluRay, and then there's all the extra/add-on software stuff like BD Live, etc...It's not right to hold Samsung responsible for Dolby or Sony's proprietary technology upgrade schedule.

Yup. what I've seen in this day and age is that A/V equipment is just as much computer as sound and video processor. The word processor itself congures up "microprocessor" in my mind.

I suggest that the computerization of today's A/V equipment is a compelling reason why there are so many analog stallwards that still exist in the community.

[bfalls]

If you've ever seen how a standard DVD player works you would have no doubt they too are computer based. Every so often I need to diagnose a DVD problem for copy protection software I implement for Sony. One of the programs I use is a freeware program called PGCEdit. This program has a "trace" function which steps through the initialization and play sequences. Playing a DVD is pretty much the same as running a computer program using registers to store values, mathematic computations, branching, etc ...
My Blu-ray player is a PS3, so I don't mind performing the occasional upgrades. It's simple and keeps everything up to date. So far they seem to be doing a better job than Microsoft. My PS3 has never displayed the "Blue Screen of Death". (knock on wood).

[nightflier]

Another problem with firmware updates is when these devices fall behind. With a computer, if you don't keep up with updates, then you need to go through a whole afternoon of updating, rebooting, and hope that everything installs w/o a freeze. I presume that most of us keep up to date with this, but what about the many consumers who don't? And while it's possible to keep up with 2-3 devices around the house, how do you manage 20-30 devices around the house? As more of our everyday electronics start to rely on this new model or owner-responsibility, we could have dozens more devices to update in a very short time. This will become a nightmare of firmware management.

Am I the only one who thinks that this is a problem? What if one day you have to call you boss and tell her/him that you'll have to miss the staff meeting because your car didn't get it's firmware update last night. Better yet, what if you get the dreaded BSOD in the middle rush-hour traffic? I mean most people still ignore the check engine light, but can you really ignore a memory-dump screen on the console?

While we'd be loath to admit it, this may well be the reason so many of us like analog simplicity so much more....

[GMichael]

Another problem with firmware updates is when these devices fall behind. With a computer, if you don't keep up with updates, then you need to go through a whole afternoon of updating, rebooting, and hope that everything installs w/o a freeze. I presume that most of us keep up to date with this, but what about the many consumers who don't? And while it's possible to keep up with 2-3 devices around the house, how do you manage 20-30 devices around the house? As more of our everyday electronics start to rely on this new model or owner-responsibility, we could have dozens more devices to update in a very short time. This will become a nightmare of firmware management.

Am I the only one who thinks that this is a problem? What if one day you have to call you boss and tell her/him that you'll have to miss the staff meeting because your car didn't get it's firmware update last night. Better yet, what if you get the dreaded BSOD in the middle rush-hour traffic? I mean most people still ignore the check engine light, but can you really ignore a memory-dump screen on the console?

While we'd be loath to admit it, this may well be the reason so many of us like analog simplicity so much more....

We all better go wireless ASAP. That's the great thing about the PS3. It tells me when it needs an upgrade and just asks me if it's OK to go ahead with it. It's a polite little thing.

[Woochifer]

Doesn't it bother anyone how often firmware updates are needed? I mean some of these are for new features, I know, but a lot of these are fixes for problems that come up along the way. In essence we're all beta-testers. It used to be the case that there was an understanding that certain industries should not be hobbled by such shoddy manufacturing, and audio was in that category. I guess that is no more.

Are you talking about the Samsung BD players, or are you generalizing a specific problem with a first generation BD player to demonize the entire industry?

Last time I checked, the second and third generation players from most of the other major companies like Sony and Panasonic had minimal performance and compatibility issues out of the box. Fourth generation players were announced at CES, so the early Blu-ray issues aren't applicable to what's coming out now. Samsung's longstanding problems with their BD players are more the exception than the rule.

You can pretty much say the same thing about just about any first generation digital device. The first generation DVD players had all sorts of compatibility issues, and none of them could output a DTS audio stream. Many of them did not have the flash-enabled firmware that allows for code corrections, and early adopters paid ~$800 for the privilege.

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the need for keeping products up to date and to be able to add new features, but with these BR players it seems to be needed every other week. To me that smacks of shoddy manufacturing. What's next, virus scanners for BR players? I'm waiting to see the first mallware app to hit these internet-connected systems. If possible, I'd focus on those products that need the fewest firmware updates over time.

If you don't want to be saddled with potential compatibility issues that will inevitably crop up as a new media format moves forward, then don't be an early adopter. Early DVD players had all sorts of issues with handling basic playback on certain discs, audio bitstreaming, seamless branching, dual layer playback, and other features. This is not like the CD audio format, where the functionality was very limited.

These video formats are multimedia programming platforms, and many of the early DVD issues originated from poorly coded disc releases. The DVD FAQ used to maintain a list of disc releases that had specific compatibility issues with certain DVD players and/or processors. Very often, these issues were the fault of the programmers who did not follow the guidelines. I don't see how the situation with Blu-ray is any different, except that it seems that problems with BD players are a lot easier to correct than they were with DVD players.

With the PS3, I don't see how its frequent firmware updates can possibly be regarded as a negative. That unit's Blu-ray functionality was always top notch, and the firmware updates continually improved its DVD playback and added new features and capabilities at no cost to the customer. At the time the PS3 came out, Blu-ray players were still first generation. The firmware updates made the PS3 fully compliant with Profile 1.1 and now Profile 2.0.

And if you're buying a new standalone BD player, how do you know how frequent the firmware updates will be if it's a new model?

[nightflier]

Wooch, I'm not speaking about any specific player or format, but more a general sense that this industry is getting more uncertain. Firmware updates, BSODs, viruses, mallware, etc. used to be something only people with computers used to have to worry about, but now it looks like it will affect everyone who has home electronics. I'm just asking if this is a good thing.

If anything, it goes in the opposite direction from the whole back-to-basics, locally-built-&-supported, and less complicated trends that a down economy should tend towards. Personally, I've lived with this reality since my first C-64 computer, so I'm OK with it, I suppose. I just don't know if we're going a little too far in that direction, and that this may be the wrong time to be going there.

That said, Samsung does seem to be slipping somewhat compared to the competition. Reliability and support have not been their strong suits. Is this a sign that the company is slipping in other ways as well?

[musicman1999]

Hi Bill, it is good to see you again. I thought the 51 had on board decoding. How do you get updates from Pioneer?

hey

i am afraid you need to download and burn to a disc. have done one so far, no issues.

bill

[musicman1999]

Good to see you around bill.

thanks man, think i will hang around a little more than i have been, see whats going on.

bill

[Mr Peabody]

I talked with one of the shops here in town about which players they carried now and mentioned why I was looking to replace mine. He told me that software compatibility was NOT just a Samsung problem. They occasionally have discs that won't play in their machines as well. Here's a guy who could have gone for the sale, so I'm inclined to believe what he said. I talked to Samsung tonight and apparently there is a firmware update that came out in Dec. I don't have. So I will try that and see what happens.

I am not aware of any reliability problems with Samsung. What have you heard?

NF, a long while back I started a thread with the similar mind set as yours. I have changed my view. As many have said, it's not the manufacturing so much. It's a lack of standards. I believe there is less cooperation on products these days. Too many companies want to do things their way and not compromise. Time and time again we see the results of this but the companies never seem to learn. Probably because the CEO gets his bonus no matter what. As Wooch pointed out on my thread, at least we have a way to update now, beats the heck out of tossing it or living with an issue.

I was reading a podcast transcript from a show with one of the Dolby guys and apparently some of our Blu problems is do to a lack of a standard way to implement Java scripts. It's more of a software issue. Really when you look at it from a manufacturer's point of view, we're pretty darn lucky they are willing to go in and write these firmware updates. I mean they want to sell a product and to do so you have to provide service but that has to be a pain to go in and write a fix for every movie you hear about that won't play in your machine.

I hear in gens to come they will have Y fi.

[Mr Peabody]

I found that transcript again:
http://www.dolby.com/dolbycast/trans...-joe-rice.html

[Woochifer]

Wooch, I'm not speaking about any specific player or format, but more a general sense that this industry is getting more uncertain. Firmware updates, BSODs, viruses, mallware, etc. used to be something only people with computers used to have to worry about, but now it looks like it will affect everyone who has home electronics. I'm just asking if this is a good thing.

Where are you seeing reports of BD players with BSODs, viruses, or malware? The issues with BD players have been mostly limited to their inability to play certain discs or access certain features. At least now, with most BD players using flash ROMs, the firmware can be updated fairly easily. In the infancy of the DVD format, you had players with firmware issues that could not be corrected unless you exchanged the player or a service tech replaced certain components.

If anything, it goes in the opposite direction from the whole back-to-basics, locally-built-&-supported, and less complicated trends that a down economy should tend towards. Personally, I've lived with this reality since my first C-64 computer, so I'm OK with it, I suppose. I just don't know if we're going a little too far in that direction, and that this may be the wrong time to be going there.

When has technology EVER gone "back-to-basics"? It's always been a game of adding features and making things faster and smaller.

Blu-ray players use Java as the programming language, but they are not asked to perform the wide range of tasks that PCs are asked to. Plus, most of the executable code for a BD player comes with a movie that customers purchase or rent, and those are usually known sources. It's not like you'll be playing files from hundreds of different locations like you do with web surfing on a computer. If you want to get into feature bloat, security holes, and complexity run rampant, look no further than your computer desktop.

That said, Samsung does seem to be slipping somewhat compared to the competition. Reliability and support have not been their strong suits. Is this a sign that the company is slipping in other ways as well?

Again, are you talking about their BD players or are you generalizing about the entire company? Their BD players, like everybody else's, have improved since the first generation models. Where they fall short is in how often they update the firmware to address new incompatibilities that crop up in the market. But, as far as their TVs, cellphones, memory chips, and media players go, their reliability and support have been solid for years.

[Woochifer]

NF, a long while back I started a thread with the similar mind set as yours. I have changed my view. As many have said, it's not the manufacturing so much. It's a lack of standards. I believe there is less cooperation on products these days. Too many companies want to do things their way and not compromise. Time and time again we see the results of this but the companies never seem to learn. Probably because the CEO gets his bonus no matter what. As Wooch pointed out on my thread, at least we have a way to update now, beats the heck out of tossing it or living with an issue.

I was reading a podcast transcript from a show with one of the Dolby guys and apparently some of our Blu problems is do to a lack of a standard way to implement Java scripts. It's more of a software issue. Really when you look at it from a manufacturer's point of view, we're pretty darn lucky they are willing to go in and write these firmware updates. I mean they want to sell a product and to do so you have to provide service but that has to be a pain to go in and write a fix for every movie you hear about that won't play in your machine.

I hear in gens to come they will have Y fi.

As I mentioned, this isn't much different than the problems with early DVD players. Incompatibilities can originate with the players, or the coding, or even issues that crop up during disc replication. Indeed, there are no hard and fast rules on how a studio must code the discs. You know that the video and audio files will be encoded using one of the standard codecs, but anything beyond that is up to the studio and/or disc producer. It took years before the DVD format ironed out a lot of its compatibility issues.

[nightflier]

Where are you seeing reports of BD players with BSODs, viruses, or malware? The issues with BD players have been mostly limited to their inability to play certain discs or access certain features.

Well, didn't we just all agree that these devices, much more than the DVD players before them, are starting to become more and more computerized? Try this one on for size, unplug that fancy player in the middle of a firmware update: welcome to your new doorstop. And as far as viruses, it's only a matter of time. It will start as ad-ware, then morph to mall-ware, and eventually it will be viruses. Haven't there already been a few scares with xBox hacks? I know of several proof-of-concept scripts that can hijack certain cell-phones, and these have no where near the processing capability or memory capacity as BR players, not to mention that cell phones are not continuously connected to the internet, like most of today's BR players are. It's not a question of if, but of when.

At least now, with most BD players using flash ROMs, the firmware can be updated fairly easily. In the infancy of the DVD format, you had players with firmware issues that could not be corrected unless you exchanged the player or a service tech replaced certain components.

But let's be realistic here, how many people today have to install a firmware update on a regular DVD player they pick up at CC or BB? Sure there were early DVD players that had issues, but for many years now, the DVD player has been pretty trouble free.

When has technology EVER gone "back-to-basics"? It's always been a game of adding features and making things faster and smaller.

I was referring to the industry having to go back to basics because of the economy. A trend towards complexity is not in synch with a down economy. I would even go so far as to say that feature bloat is falling into disfavor with the public as unnecessary extravagance - even reviewers are starting to sing that tune. Consumers that don't have a lot to spend will opt for the simpler device that just gets the job done rather than spend more for features that they won't use as often, no matter how cutting edge they may be.

Blu-ray players use Java as the programming language, but they are not asked to perform the wide range of tasks that PCs are asked to. Plus, most of the executable code for a BD player comes with a movie that customers purchase or rent, and those are usually known sources.

Java is very hackable, and the content also comes from those downloaded firmware updates. Are you really sure nothing is going on behind the scenes when your computer is permanently connected to the internet? So how about your BR player, which we're already established is becoming more a computer, right?

It's not like you'll be playing files from hundreds of different locations like you do with web surfing on a computer.

I seriously doubt this is how the marketing departments at Sony, iTunes, and Netflix are looking at it. They would like nothing more than to turn that permanently connected Java server into your source for entertainment, no matter what type it is. Take that profile 2.0, for example, when you're connected to multiple users and these people can send files to your player from theirs. How secure do you think that is? Even if you're connected to just "a few friends", they are also connected to "a few friends" who are then also connected to "a few friends"... Pretty soon, you're connected to a whole lot of friends' friends you really don't know very well and who may be very far away. Here's another thought: how much storage does profile 2.0 require? How much data is that? And collectively, how much data is that with all your "friends"? And how much of that data is "suspicious"?

If you want to get into feature bloat, security holes, and complexity run rampant, look no further than your computer desktop.

Sorry, you're speaking to a Linux user. While it also has its warts, they are nothing like the puss-filled infected goiters in MS Windows.

Again, are you talking about their BD players or are you generalizing about the entire company? Their BD players, like everybody else's, have improved since the first generation models. Where they fall short is in how often they update the firmware to address new incompatibilities that crop up in the market. But, as far as their TVs, cellphones, memory chips, and media players go, their reliability and support have been solid for years.

Samsung has several issues. They are consistently rated lower than their competitors in consumer reports for service and reliability. Their financials are also not as strong as their competitors. Finally, the engineering behind their products is consistently below their competitors. For example, they make great TVs, but they run hotter, require more repairs, and consume more energy. While by themselves these issues are not excessive, in a market where the margins are often quite thin, they need to make better products. And while the heat and energy are important from a green perspective, these factors also play into their reliability over time.

I also think that Samsung fares better when marketing their products in B&M stores, where the netter picture, faster load times, and other features they may be able to bring to the table can be demonstrated. But as B&Ms start to become scarcer and online is the new market place, reputation becomes much more important and Samsung is slightly behind there. Professional reviewers won't help them here either, because those will be sure to mention the shortcomings, even if minor, and that is what the consumers will remember when making their online purchase decision. Of course the closing of CC, one of their major B&M retailers, isn't going to be good for their bottom line either.