DVDis dead!

[Feanor]

Oddly, I am almost completely opposite to you. I am feeling that it's a damn shame when animated movies are better than those with actual people in them these days.

....

But my point is the Disney/Pixar flicks aren't anywhere near as good as the reviews they get. I just don't see the charm in them, though they might appeal to children.

Maybe they're as good or better than the "people" films but that's beside the point.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

We'll accept that as a theory my brotha...

Now you know I am just poken at ya? I know a few Disney folks that didn't care for it either!

[rob_a]

I welcome the Blu-ray format, the quality is hands down better then DVD and with more people buying, this will give manufactures the incentive to continually updating the technology and work out the bugs.You also have the ability to use this machine to play your old DVD’s, CD, ect, so it's a win win. I bought my BD player about 8 or 9 months ago and I have nothing but Love for it

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Oddly, I am almost completely opposite to you. I am feeling that it's a damn shame when animated movies are better than those with actual people in them these days.

I just watched Horton Hears a Who again and I am amazed at the thought provoking content that children would not even come close to understanding, unless of course they are into quantum physics and have the understanding that the earth we live on is just a SPEC of dust in the big picture.

I am not of the belief that animation these days is totally for kids. I love animation, and happen to have every animation title from all of the major studios, and some from European studios as well. A lot of the content on these titles are pretty sophisticated for a young child to understand, so I am not so sure it is totally directed towards them. I always found animation to be more "family" entertainment, not kids entertainment specifically.

[Mr Peabody]

BAJ, you had four machines? Did you ever upgrade the firmware?

Wooch, I have never ever had a single DVD player I've owned, and that's plenty, need a firmware update. Some people may have but that's a totally different issue than what's going on with Blu-ray. Both of my Blu-ray players have had firmware updates and will continue to need them. Any one who has a Blu ray player will continually need to update the firmware. This is not a Hardware probblem, it's a software problem, caused by no Java standards. Frankly, at the cost it must take to keep the machines updated you'd think something would have been done about this before now. Any one who doesn't update their firmware will always have compatibility issues with certain discs. At this point Blu-ray and firmware updates are hand in hand if you want trouble free use.

[frahengeo]

I am not of the belief that animation these days is totally for kids. I love animation, and happen to have every animation title from all of the major studios, and some from European studios as well. A lot of the content on these titles are pretty sophisticated for a young child to understand, so I am not so sure it is totally directed towards them. I always found animation to be more "family" entertainment, not kids entertainment specifically.

DEFINITELY not for kids only. Pixar movies, in particular, are so cleverly written and cater to both adults and children. Can't think of any particular lines, but I remember many instances where my wife and l were laughing pretty hard while my 7 year old son just looked at us in confusion. Pixar is a tier above the rest of the other animation releases (just my opinion of course).

[02audionoob]

Cartoons have contained sophisticated levels of entertainment for many years. Have another look at Bugs Bunny, sometime.

[Smokey]

I suspect DVD will hang on for a bit longer than some folks think.

I agree.

There are alot of programs out there that were taped in NTSC standard (480i) like old classic and sitcom TV shows, and DVD will be perfect medium for them. Also with stores like BigLots selling DVDs for $2.99, Bluray is still not on Joe6pack radar.

[pixelthis]

I agree.

There are alot of programs out there that were taped in NTSC standard (480i) like old classic and sitcom TV shows, and DVD will be perfect medium for them. Also with stores like BigLots selling DVDs for $2.99, Bluray is still not on Joe6pack radar.

Peeps that go to big lots go to Walmart, and players are getting cheap.
As for most older TV shows,most were filmed, and were higher res than 480i,
and look a lot better on Blu, especially if they are cleaned up.
And there is the phenom whereby, after watching blu for awhile, you just wont buy
DVD at any price, pretty much what happened to VHS and LASER after the advent of
DVD.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Cartoons have contained sophisticated levels of entertainment for many years. Have another look at Bugs Bunny, sometime.

I have the entire Warner Brothers cartoon pack on DVD, but it is no match for the level of sophistication that some animation has today. I grew up on Bugs Bunny, but I got it. I am not so sure that I would "get it" with animation today if I was the same age as then. A title like Ratatoiulle would have went completely over my head as a kid. Cars would not have.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

BAJ, you had four machines? Did you ever upgrade the firmware?

Wooch, I have never ever had a single DVD player I've owned, and that's plenty, need a firmware update. Some people may have but that's a totally different issue than what's going on with Blu-ray. Both of my Blu-ray players have had firmware updates and will continue to need them. Any one who has a Blu ray player will continually need to update the firmware. This is not a Hardware probblem, it's a software problem, caused by no Java standards. Frankly, at the cost it must take to keep the machines updated you'd think something would have been done about this before now. Any one who doesn't update their firmware will always have compatibility issues with certain discs. At this point Blu-ray and firmware updates are hand in hand if you want trouble free use.

Mr P. Firmware upgrades have quite frankly slowed quite a bit in the last year, especially compatibility firmware upgrades. Unfortunately you have a Samsung Bluray player, which IMO is the worst of the worst in terms of Bluray players. Samsung's players have unfortunately had more firmware upgrades than most all other players on the market (the new cheap players really don't have a track record yet). The PS3 firmware upgrades are for both gaming, and to improve what is already there. We have had zero compatibility upgrades in the last year, and that goes for Sony standalone's as well. Panasonic and Pioneer have not had any in the last year that I could recollect.

Bluray has had Java standards set from day one. That is not the problem here. The problem here is the Java kits purchased by the authoring companies didn't always match the standards set by the format. The kits are newer upgraded versions of previous kits which taxed the processing chips in some players.. Samsung players (especially their earlier models) tended to be the most poorly configured in terms of their chipset instructions, and have had to be updated consistently to correct these deficiencies.

[Mr Peabody]

Well, what's interesting is it was my newer Marantz player that needed the firmware update and the movie actually played in my Samsung without an update. I don't know about the most recent generation of Pioneer but prior had massive firmware updates.

Look firmware is a fact of using Blu-ray at this point and it's better that people know about it and address it rather than thinking Blu-ray or a certain machine is a piece of crap. Especially, if the quirk can be fixed. No need to try and cover it up.

Here's a list from Bluray.com and there's a good number of updates dated 2009. And, it's not like you have to update daily or monthly. Time frames will vary with the unit and what's coming out. My Samsung actually has not been updated in quite a while.
http://www.blu-ray.com/firmware/

So as any one can see there's a **** load of firmware updates within the last year which includes a large numbers of manufactures. So, no, I'd say the firmware updates have not gone down and it is a significant factor in owning a Blu-ray player. I'd also say a wise person would take the time to check occasionally for updates to keep the machine updated and working without issues. Even Oppo is on there. How can you own the Oppo and not know that?

[Woochifer]

Wooch, I have never ever had a single DVD player I've owned, and that's plenty, need a firmware update. Some people may have but that's a totally different issue than what's going on with Blu-ray. Both of my Blu-ray players have had firmware updates and will continue to need them. Any one who has a Blu ray player will continually need to update the firmware. This is not a Hardware probblem, it's a software problem, caused by no Java standards. Frankly, at the cost it must take to keep the machines updated you'd think something would have been done about this before now. Any one who doesn't update their firmware will always have compatibility issues with certain discs. At this point Blu-ray and firmware updates are hand in hand if you want trouble free use.

Did you actually own any of the first or second generation DVD players? Those were the ones that had the biggest issues with disc compatibility. I remember the reviews on this site of the early DVD players. Most of them cited major compatibility problems, and in many cases, the firmware could only be fixed by shipping the player back and replacing a ROM chip. Even the 4th generation Denon players had major problems. Sites like the DVD FAQ published long lists of DVD titles and which specific player models had playback problems with those titles.

From what I can see, you have two early generation Samsung BD players, which inherently raises the likelihood that you will have playback problems.

Your comments on the firmware are not generalizable because you're basing them on BD player models that are no longer made, and personal experience from a specific brand that has had an especially spotty track record on this issue. Someone who owns a PS3 or one of the more recent Panasonic models will have a very different experience.

Like I stated before, the newer models have not had the same issues with playback compatibility, and as Terrence pointed out, the firmware updates do not come out as frequently as before and now correct relatively minor issues. Joe6p is only now beginning to come into the Blu-ray market, right when the playback issues with the newer BD players have been largely resolved.

So as any one can see there's a **** load of firmware updates within the last year which includes a large numbers of manufactures. So, no, I'd say the firmware updates have not gone down and it is a significant factor in owning a Blu-ray player. I'd also say a wise person would take the time to check occasionally for updates to keep the machine updated and working without issues. Even Oppo is on there. How can you own the Oppo and not know that?

You've posted this site link before, and all that it confirms is that a firmware file is available for download, NOT how often it was updated or whether it fixes any major issues. It's a long list because the number of BD player models is itself a long list.

You do not know which firmware version come with the majority of production units for a particular model. And you don't know whether the production units started with firmware version 1.0 (I know that with computer motherboards, many of the firmware version numbers refer to internal test versions that never got released to the public). And just because a firmware update is out there does not mean that every consumer must inherently rush to update their players.

With Oppo, you're talking about a first generation BD player. Think any manufacturer got it perfect on the first try?

[BadAssJazz]

BAJ, you had four machines? Did you ever upgrade the firmware?

No, never upgraded firmware on any of my units. I had one of the first Samsungs, followed by a trio of Panasonics.

I typically sell and upgrade components the minute that I hear the next series is due to be released. It doesn't have anything to do with the performance of a particular unit per se, but with my shopaholic upgrade-itis bent. But I think I'm slowing down now. In a perfect world, someone would produce a Blu-ray player that performs like the Oppo, but looks like the Pioneer Elite. I'm ashamed to admit it, but homogeneity is a factor with me these days.

[Mr Peabody]

Wooch, you and Sir T argue for the sake of arguing or not wanting to admit even you can be mistaken. First you deny firmware updates are still out there and then when I prove you wrong there, then you want to down play the significance of them. The point is on that list is RECENT players and RECENT firmware updates. So what if Oppo is on the list or first gen, it's release was this year. Uh, just like some cheap players that are hittting this year and probably first gen as well, What's your point again? You all are trying to convince people, and foolishly I might add, that firmware updates aren't out there and if they are they aren't important. Oh, no, people shouldn't rush out and get an update, only if they want the machine to perform properly and have compatibility with recent movie releases.

[Mr Peabody]

BAJ, you should take a look at the link I posted, Panasonic and Oppo are both there. Check your manual for how to update firmware. If I can do it any one should be able to. People like to pick on Samsung but they would actually send me the disc if I asked. Marantz wasn't any help at all. So I had to ask a lot of questions of others and learn how to download and burn to CD the update. My snag was I didn't realize the file was a zip file when downloaded. Couldn't understand why it wouldn't work. I can half smile at it now. So an addition of Winzip and a simple CD burning program and I was off. Oh, and the really fun part, Marantz has a sequence of buttons to push to tell the player to update. It's about 4 buttons. The manual says to push in 2 to 3 seconds, in actuality it was more like a blink of an eye. In the end I finally got it updated though. The second time the only problem I had was finding a disc my burner liked.

I was going to get a Pioneer BD51 but it is big and wouldn't fit in the space I had so I went with the Marantz. I notice you have a SVS as well. I am thrilled with mine.

[Woochifer]

I agree.

Or you hope? At least until the BD player prices come down to current DVD player levels? The DVD format will be viable until it gets surpassed by Blu-ray. Some analysts are now projecting that will happen sometime in 2012.

At that point, the DVD's demise will be swift and decisive. The hardware will be all Blu-ray capable by that point, and retailers will not maintain dual disc inventories indefinitely. History bears this out. Look at how quickly VHS disappeared from store shelves after the DVD format took over the sales lead in 2003 (some retailers like Best Buy had already cut out their VHS titles well before then). It took only three years after that for the studios to abandon the format altogether, and most of their remaining inventory went out of print and into the hands of liquidators well before that.

There are alot of programs out there that were taped in NTSC standard (480i) like old classic and sitcom TV shows, and DVD will be perfect medium for them. Also with stores like BigLots selling DVDs for $2.99, Bluray is still not on Joe6pack radar.

But, that's a small minority of the total programming that sits in the studio archives. TV programs are a cheap way for the studios to get squeeze more revenue out of their libraries. TV DVD sets are generally not huge sellers, and most of them probably won't get re-released on Blu-ray anyway. DVD's the perfect medium, because for most TV series, that will be the ONLY medium.

Those $2.99 DVDs you see at Big Lots wound up at that price for a reason -- NOBODY WANTS THEM ANYMORE! Joe6p already rented them or bought them ages ago. Blu-ray is for the Joe6p's who have been buying HDTVs over the last couple of years (by the end of this holiday season, HDTV penetration is expected to be 50% to 60%).

[Woochifer]

Wooch, you and Sir T argue for the sake of arguing or not wanting to admit even you can be mistaken. First you deny firmware updates are still out there and then when I prove you wrong there, then you want to down play the significance of them. The point is on that list is RECENT players and RECENT firmware updates.

And you seem to be posting this list repeatedly and suggesting that it means something significant, when it doesn't. The presence of a firmware file says absolutely nothing about how frequently it was updated or how significant the issues it remedies are. The Panasonic firmware update for the DMP-BD60 simply adds "BD-V" playback capability, while the firmware for the DMP-BD80 is still version 1.0.

So what if Oppo is on the list or first gen, it's release was this year. Uh, just like some cheap players that are hittting this year and probably first gen as well, What's your point again?

Since you seem to be ignoring my point, I'll say it again. Oppo is "on the list" because it is also "on the list" of BD players in production. EVERY major BD player model has the current firmware file on its manufacturer's website. In some cases it solves a problem, in other cases, it adds a new feature. And in other cases, it's no different than the firmware version that got loaded onto the production units.

This is Oppo's first attempt at a BD player. All of the other manufacturers have had at least three generations to iron out the bugs at their end. Even the cheap players are made by Funai, which has also issued at least three previous generations of its spec models. It took about that many generations for the early DVD player problems to get solved as well.

You all are trying to convince people, and foolishly I might add, that firmware updates aren't out there and if they are they aren't important.

Oh please. If you're going to accuse someone of arguing for argument's sake, why don't you try accurately representing what they said first.

Here's my original quote: "The firmware and player compatibility issues have been getting less and less frequent with every successive generation."

And here's my second quote: Like I stated before, the newer models have not had the same issues with playback compatibility, and as Terrence pointed out, the firmware updates do not come out as frequently as before and now correct relatively minor issues.

Where does it say that firmware updates "aren't out there" or "aren't important"? If you take issue with my statements, are actually you suggesting that the firmware updates and compatibility problems are just as bad now as they were three years ago? That would be foolish.

Oh, no, people shouldn't rush out and get an update, only if they want the machine to perform properly and have compatibility with recent movie releases.

YOU were the one wondering why you don't hear about compatibility issues anymore. And I simply stated the obvious in response -- you don't hear about it because it's not a major issue anymore. You seem to be the only one convinced that Blu-ray will fail because these Joe6p's won't install firmware updates. Y'know, updates that solve problems that the vast majority of newer BD player owners won't ever experience.

[RGA]

I don't see any issues with BD players not being able to play DVD - some machines apparently are louder but they should be fine.

Blu Ray was handled well - the players are "backwards compatible" if DVD is backwards and so it makes buying a BD player painless.

I still like DVD's because the prices are dirt cheap and if it's not the kind of movie you care "that" much about it's not a bad deal to pick them up for $5 here or there.

My GF's father bought a Sony player recently and what bothered me more about it and my GF's LG player was how bloody SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW it was to just turn on and let the disc out and then read the disc and get going. Meanwhile the PS3 is lightning fast and the picture quality is identical to the stand alone player - and it plays games and doesn't cost much.

I'm not a huge gamer but I have to say when they advertise "it does everything" it pretty much does for the average user. I have never been a videophile to be honest with you but The PS3 is a very very tempting machine - I was screwing around with a baseball game on the thing and I was amazed at the graphics and detail of the whole thing. I can see why they're so popular. I have an old XBox that I bought for $40 (it pays to be one technology behind) because all the games are $5 - $20 used - and hey the games are all "new" to me. But the PS3 baseball game looks vastly better than the MVP2005 game I have.

Anyway, The PS3 plays the DVD's - it has apparently good upgrade paths, the picture quality is very good - and it plays games. Probably does a bunch of other technobabble things too that I don't know about. But a fellow on another forum compared it directly to his big brand new OPPO 83 and said the Sony is as good on picture for BD bit worse on DVD's. Even if that is a stretch - it's probably at least close - and that would be saying a lot for the Sony considering it's cheaper - and ohh - it also plays video games!!! And it's cheaper than I paid for my Pioneer DV333 years ago. Can't beat that!

Maybe it's time for a Christmas present for myself.

[BadAssJazz]

BAJ, you should take a look at the link I posted, Panasonic and Oppo are both there. Check your manual for how to update firmware. If I can do it any one should be able to. People like to pick on Samsung but they would actually send me the disc if I asked. Marantz wasn't any help at all. So I had to ask a lot of questions of others and learn how to download and burn to CD the update. My snag was I didn't realize the file was a zip file when downloaded. Couldn't understand why it wouldn't work. I can half smile at it now. So an addition of Winzip and a simple CD burning program and I was off. Oh, and the really fun part, Marantz has a sequence of buttons to push to tell the player to update. It's about 4 buttons. The manual says to push in 2 to 3 seconds, in actuality it was more like a blink of an eye. In the end I finally got it updated though. The second time the only problem I had was finding a disc my burner liked.

I was going to get a Pioneer BD51 but it is big and wouldn't fit in the space I had so I went with the Marantz. I notice you have a SVS as well. I am thrilled with mine.

No worries, when I finally settle on a BR player once and for all, I plan to keep it fully updated on firmware. I just haven't felt the need to do that since I usually swap out the gear so quickly. I do check regularly for firmware updates on my SC-07, though, especially since that entails taking it to a local pioneer repair center. Fortunately, there are a couple here in the Bay Area within easy driving distance.

I love my SVS. I started off with the 20-39, but sold it in favor of the box...purely for aesthetics. The girlfriend wasn't fond of the 20-39's black cylinder in "her" living room at all. It stood out like a sore thumb, even though I tried my best to integrate it with the decor. Performance-wise, I've no complaints whatsoever with switching from the 20-39 to the SB12. The damn thing delivers and then some!

[rob_a]

I think the Blu-ray format is great and I hope it becomes the standard in movies and music. If the music industry starts putting music out more on Blu-ray, I would be all for it. Think about it, one format means one player for all your needs. No more expensive universal players or a rack with 4 different players to cover all your compatibility needs. The audio and picture quality are second none, beating DVD-A and SACD in my book, yet inexpensive and simple to use, one HDMI cable to your receiver, your done. The firmware issue is not an issue, with BD live, this is as easy as a software update on your computer.

[Mr Peabody]

And you seem to be posting this list repeatedly and suggesting that it means something significant, when it doesn't. The presence of a firmware file says absolutely nothing about how frequently it was updated or how significant the issues it remedies are. The Panasonic firmware update for the DMP-BD60 simply adds "BD-V" playback capability, while the firmware for the DMP-BD80 is still version 1.0.

** This is the first time I've used this link and if it wasn't significant the info wouldn't be listed on Bluray.com.

Since you seem to be ignoring my point, I'll say it again. Oppo is "on the list" because it is also "on the list" of BD players in production. EVERY major BD player model has the current firmware file on its manufacturer's website. In some cases it solves a problem, in other cases, it adds a new feature. And in other cases, it's no different than the firmware version that got loaded onto the production units.

** Of course, they'd be on the manufacturer website. Bluray.com gathers them in one place out of convenience for those who visit or have the intelligence to realize their machine needs the updates.

This is Oppo's first attempt at a BD player. All of the other manufacturers have had at least three generations to iron out the bugs at their end. Even the cheap players are made by Funai, which has also issued at least three previous generations of its spec models. It took about that many generations for the early DVD player problems to get solved as well.

** It's no shame for Oppo to have an update. I'm saying it's normal and it isn't going away soon.

Oh please. If you're going to accuse someone of arguing for argument's sake, why don't you try accurately representing what they said first.

Here's my original quote: "The firmware and player compatibility issues have been getting less and less frequent with every successive generation."

And here's my second quote: Like I stated before, the newer models have not had the same issues with playback compatibility, and as Terrence pointed out, the firmware updates do not come out as frequently as before and now correct relatively minor issues.

Where does it say that firmware updates "aren't out there" or "aren't important"? If you take issue with my statements, are actually you suggesting that the firmware updates and compatibility problems are just as bad now as they were three years ago? That would be foolish.

** Going by the amount of manufacturers on the list and the current dates...... you can only go by what you see. You don't even have a Blu-ray player do you?

YOU were the one wondering why you don't hear about compatibility issues anymore. And I simply stated the obvious in response -- you don't hear about it because it's not a major issue anymore. You seem to be the only one convinced that Blu-ray will fail because these Joe6p's won't install firmware updates. Y'know, updates that solve problems that the vast majority of newer BD player owners won't ever experience.

Wrong again. No where did I say Blu-ray would fail. And, as I have already demonstrated new players will and do need firmware updates.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Wrong again. No where did I say Blu-ray would fail. And, as I have already demonstrated new players will and do need firmware updates.

I do not think anyone said otherwise. However you seem to be mis-representing exactly what the latest firmware upgrades actually do. There has not been a single disc compatibility upgrade announcement in the last year. It has mostly been tweaking upgrades - upgrades that speed up Java processing, improve BD live access, or add features that were announced after the player came to market (netflix access). These updates are all "choice" updates that you choose to add to your player, and not required to make it work. There is a difference. Some folks do not have a problem with their players operation right out of the box, as those firmware upgrades have already been loaded.

As I have told you previously, you seem to think that joe6pack is technologically challenged in that they cannot load a disc, and install a firmware upgrade if needed or desired. Over the last three to four years, that has been proven wrong. As a member of Bluray.com, and as an insider there as well - and as a person who visits other websites, one learns that folks know how to call customer service, or download and burn their own firmware disc and install updates based on instructions given. No big deal here. However, I have read many a times where a person has not installed the latest firmware upgrade, and the player is working just fine. The latest players contain wifi or ethernet access that makes downloading an upgrade a snap. I try not to make a mountain out of a ant hill, and that is not a bad suggestion to follow.

[Mr Peabody]

I'm not trying to make more of this than what it is. Some people don't even know you need special programming to receive HD. I had to explain to some what Progressive Scan is let alone updating firmware. Not every single person will not read the manual but it's more than you would admit.

You can call it what you want but when my player won't play a certain movie I call it incompatibility. It's also funny how when I read a lot of the firmware updates it's many times to enable the player to play a certain movie. Even though my fix allowed me to watch Drag Me To Hell, the fix was actually for Babylon AD. Regardless, firmware updates are something that those who own BD players should know about and keep updated. Whether they choose to is up to them.

If any one made a mountain from a mole hil it's you and Wooch. You act like Blu-ray is totally perfect and nothing negative can be said. Actually, admitting there are firmware updates isn't even a negative. But it is part of ownership of one and you denying it don't make it any less so.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I don't see any issues with BD players not being able to play DVD - some machines apparently are louder but they should be fine.

Blu Ray was handled well - the players are "backwards compatible" if DVD is backwards and so it makes buying a BD player painless.

I still like DVD's because the prices are dirt cheap and if it's not the kind of movie you care "that" much about it's not a bad deal to pick them up for $5 here or there.

My GF's father bought a Sony player recently and what bothered me more about it and my GF's LG player was how bloody SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW it was to just turn on and let the disc out and then read the disc and get going. Meanwhile the PS3 is lightning fast and the picture quality is identical to the stand alone player - and it plays games and doesn't cost much.

Disc loading speed is definately a problem with early players, and has gotten much better in the latest generations. It was largely chip instruction inefficiencies that made the processors have to do a lot things separately when booting up, loading Java, and checking to see if the machine has been altered. When you added BD live to the equation, it slowed the processor even further. Now these processes are handled in a single process that speed load up time.

I'm not a huge gamer but I have to say when they advertise "it does everything" it pretty much does for the average user. I have never been a videophile to be honest with you but The PS3 is a very very tempting machine - I was screwing around with a baseball game on the thing and I was amazed at the graphics and detail of the whole thing. I can see why they're so popular. I have an old XBox that I bought for $40 (it pays to be one technology behind) because all the games are $5 - $20 used - and hey the games are all "new" to me. But the PS3 baseball game looks vastly better than the MVP2005 game I have.

And the interesting footnote on the PS3 is that they have not even used the Cell processor to its maximum capacity for gaming yet, and things will improve even further when they do.

Anyway, The PS3 plays the DVD's - it has apparently good upgrade paths, the picture quality is very good - and it plays games. Probably does a bunch of other technobabble things too that I don't know about. But a fellow on another forum compared it directly to his big brand new OPPO 83 and said the Sony is as good on picture for BD bit worse on DVD's. Even if that is a stretch - it's probably at least close - and that would be saying a lot for the Sony considering it's cheaper - and ohh - it also plays video games!!! And it's cheaper than I paid for my Pioneer DV333 years ago. Can't beat that!

Maybe it's time for a Christmas present for myself.[/QUOTE]

The observation on the PS3 versus the Oppo is correct, but it is close. I stated on this website recently that the software engineers a SCE are working on a high end computer based upscaling function for the PS3 which will make it a better upscaling player easily equal to the Oppo.

One comparison I have found that was ear opening is the CD playback of the PS3 versus the Oppo. I was quite surprised that my PS3 actually sounds better than my Oppo, and that has to be thanks to the excellent upsampling of the PS3. Even with the Upsample feature off, it sounded a bit more natural and unforced compared to the Oppo on their HDMI outputs. That was a huge surprise to me.