Does anyone else run there HT sans center speaker?

[E-Stat]

The only one that comes close is the Martin Logan (ELS). Frankly, it's a little pricey for my system and usage.

Actually, Sound Lab also makes a hybrid center channel, but isn't cheap either.

Marquee

Like you, I would prefer the coherence and resolution of a four channel electrostatic solution to any five channel box or horn.

rw

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Actually, Sound Lab also makes a hybrid center channel, but isn't cheap either.

Marquee

Like you, I would prefer the coherence and resolution of a four channel electrostatic solution to any five channel box or horn.

rw

Coherence and resolution is not limited to electrostatics. Also horn designs have improve so dramatically, that I think some of the best design could do battle with any electrostatic system out there.

[E-Stat]

Coherence and resolution is not limited to electrostatics.

I'm not aware of any full range horns. Most I see are three way designs with each driver having a decidedly different radiation pattern and profoundly more moving mass at the low end. Especially since most horns are supplemented by direct radiator woofers at the bottom. The discontinuity at the crossover points is electrically evident as a saddle in the impedance curve and changes in phase. Do you know of any studio class microphone that isn't a full range condenser design? It is for the same reason that I prefer a single driver solution especially for wide band instruments like a piano.

I think some of the best design could do battle with any electrostatic system out there.

Would you care to cite an example?

To each his own.

rw

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I'm not aware of any full range horns. Most I see are three way designs with each driver having a decidedly different radiation pattern and profoundly more moving mass at the low end. Especially since most horns are supplemented by direct radiator woofers at the bottom. The discontinuity at the crossover points is electrically evident as a saddle in the impedance curve and changes in phase.

You have never heard of the Klipschorn? It is a full range horn design.

You seem to think that all horns are exactly alike, and exhibit the same characteristics. Not all horns are made by JBL or Klipsch.

Have you heard Klipsch's new top of the line speaker?

How about Sunny Cables horn loaded speakers.

How about Acapella Audio or AvanteGarde designs?

How about any of TAD horn loaded speakers?

How about the many custom studio designs out there?

The point I am trying to make to you is you have not heard enough of the current implementation of hybrid cone/horn loaded technology that does not sound horn like, exhibit a saddle in the impedance curve, or changes the phase at the crossover.

Do you know of any studio class microphone that isn't a full range condenser design?

Yes, it is called the ball by Blue Microphones. It is a dynamic design with a frequency response of 35-16khz, and a dynamic range of 162db. Another is the Heil sound PR-40 dyanamic microphone with a frequency response of 28-18khz.

It is for the same reason that I prefer a single driver solution especially for wide band instruments like a piano.

Single drivers especially electrostatics have one big deficiency, total output and sensitivity. They make good music speakers, but are not so good for hometheater application where the SPL go well into the 100+db region.

Would you care to cite an example?

Doug Sax's custom design. Authur Mendell custom designs which are my favorite because he uses beryllium drivers behind the horns. These are not horn loaded speakers you will find in any high end shop, but perfect examples of hybrid horn loaded designs that could easily keep up with electrostatic designs note for note.

To each his own.

rw

Exactly!

[E-Stat]

You have never heard of the Klipschorn? It is a full range horn design.

Oh, I have most certainly heard K-Horns. I'll pass on their honky midrange and limited range at the frequency extremes. If you re-read my post on the topic of coherency, you'll find that I am talking about single driver systems, not three way speakers with three decidedly different drivers with three decidedly different radiation patterns and multiple sets of crossovers that further reduce their ability to sound as one.

You seem to think that all horns are exactly alike, and exhibit the same characteristics. Not all horns are made by JBL or Klipsch.

I find all multi-way speakers share the same challenges when the topic is coherency due to obvious reasons.

Have you heard Klipsch's new top of the line speaker?

I thought the K-Horn was that model. The Avant-Garde is very clean sounding with excellent resolution whose bass sounds like it belongs to a completely different speaker. That is the discontinuity I hear with virtually all multi-way horn/direct radiator hybrids.

The point I am trying to make to you is you have not heard enough of the current implementation of hybrid cone/horn loaded technology that does not sound horn like, exhibit a saddle in the impedance curve, or changes the phase at the crossover.

My complaint for the better ones is not that they share the honky, metallic sound of Altec and Klipsch horns, but to point out the obvious discontinuity between the dissimilar drivers. Play solo voice, piano or guitar and you'll hear what I'm referring to.

Yes, it is called the ball by Blue Microphones. It is a dynamic design with a frequency response of 35-16khz, and a dynamic range of 162db. Another is the Heil sound PR-40 dyanamic microphone with a frequency response of 28-18khz.

Are you aware of any recording labels that use these? Do you notice these are also full range designs? Why do you think that is the case? Shoeps and Neumann has dominated the recording industry for decades.

Single drivers especially electrostatics have one big deficiency, total output and sensitivity. They make good music speakers, but are not so good for hometheater application where the SPL go well into the 100+db region.

Indeed, it takes lots of radiating area and power to provide high output. As for me, I have zero desire to go "well into" the hearing damage range you prefer. As an aside, I always wear earplugs or sound deadening ear buds when I work in the yard for the same reason. I overwhelmingly choose quality over quantity. If you recall, we differed a while back during a conversation about two channel vs multi-channel systems. I continue to aver that one must necessarily compromise the quality of a MC system unless one has a huge multi-hundred thousand dollar budget. Naturally, had I access to an astronomical budget, I would choose Ray Kimber's idea of doing it right:

RMAF Show

More coverage-scroll down a bit

rw

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Oh, I have most certainly heard K-Horns. I'll pass on their honky midrange and limited range at the frequency extremes. If you re-read my post on the topic of coherency, you'll find that I am talking about single driver systems, not three way speakers with three decidedly different drivers with three decidedly different radiation patterns and multiple sets of crossovers that further reduce their ability to sound as one.

It is obvious you have NOT heard the new K-horns. Again, your comments are outdated. The horn hybrids I had custom made for my studio are a 4 way horn/cone hybrid. It has two different drivers (only the bass driver is a cone), it does NOT have 4 different radiation patterns on each horn, it was designed so that each radiation pattern remains exactly the same all the way through crossover point with no beaming whatsoever. The crossover system was expressly designed so that the speaker DOES sound like one. While you are entitled to you opinions (that are outdated at best), they do not reflect the current crop of horn hybrids that are out there. It is okay to love the design you chose, but you do not have to $hit on other designs because of that love.

I find all multi-way speakers share the same challenges when the topic is coherency due to obvious reasons.

Challenges can be overcome, especially when they are well understood. Coherency has nothing to do with a specific design, or the fact that one uses just one driver. It can be achieved in many different designs, and over multiple drivers if the system is well designed and matched. To say only one design is capable of coherence is disingenuous.

I thought the K-Horn was that model. The Avant-Garde is very clean sounding with excellent resolution whose bass sounds like it belongs to a completely different speaker. That is the discontinuity I hear with virtually all multi-way horn/direct radiator hybrids.

Yeah well electrostatics don't do deep bass at high levels without tremendous amounts of distortion.

My complaint for the better ones is not that they share the honky, metallic sound of Altec and Klipsch horns, but to point out the obvious discontinuity between the dissimilar drivers. Play solo voice, piano or guitar and you'll hear what I'm referring to.

A good horn hybrid design does not have discontinuities between drivers. I have played plenty of piano, solo and guitar through mine, and I don't hear any of the issues you bring up. I think you are painting a fine painting with a sweeper truck.

Are you aware of any recording labels that use these? Do you notice these are also full range designs? Why do you think that is the case? Shoeps and Neumann has dominated the recording industry for decades.

Shoeps and Neumann don't dominate any more, and the world of recording extends beyond just audio only applications.

My studio uses these, and yes I notice they were full range NON condenser microphones as well.

Indeed, it takes lots of radiating area and power to provide high output. As for me, I have zero desire to go "well into" the hearing damage range you prefer. As an aside, I always wear earplugs or sound deadening ear buds when I work in the yard for the same reason. I overwhelmingly choose quality over quantity.

I prefer headroom, not hearing damage. Headroom is where your choice fails. You do not have to choose quality over quantity. You can have both.

If you recall, we differed a while back during a conversation about two channel vs multi-channel systems. I continue to aver that one must necessarily compromise the quality of a MC system unless one has a huge multi-hundred thousand dollar budget. Naturally, had I access to an astronomical budget, I would choose Ray Kimber's idea of doing it right:

RMAF Show

More coverage-scroll down a bit

rw

This comment is pure BS. It does not require a multi hundred thousand dollar budget to get high quality MC sound. I must say I wouldn't spend ten thousand dollars on a high quality two channel system that already distorts the original recordings spatial perspective. That would be a compromise as well in my book. No matter how much you spend on a two channel system, it cannot equal the spatial accuracy that a very good multichannel system can give you.

Ray Kimber's setup is old school. You can get 5 TAD speakers or Thiel CS3.7, and Krell or California Labs amplification and get great sound for far less than $504,000+ dollars. His system would not even fit in most peoples rooms, and is not realistic for home applications period.

[E-Stat]

It is obvious you have NOT heard the new K-horns.

New K-Horns? No. Stuffing speakers in a corner doesn't do much for imaging.

Again, your comments are outdated. The horn hybrids I had custom made for my studio is a 4 way horn/cone hybrid. It has two different drivers (only the bass driver is a cone)...

A four way speaker using only two different drivers? So, the upper three range horns are all identical? OK! Pointing out why single drivers are inherently more coherent is not $hitting on other designs.

Challenges can be overcome, especially when they are well understood. A little snobbish huh?

My observations are the same against models like the Genesis 1, Nola Grand Reference and Scaena. Each of those has wonderful dynamics and frequency extension, but does not match a full range electrostat to these ears for absolute coherency. YMMV.

Yeah well electrostatics don't do deep bass at high levels without tremendous amounts of distortion.

When one listens at normal levels, that points becomes moot.

A good horn hybrid design does not have discontinuities between drivers. I have played plenty of piano, solo and guitar through mine, and I don't hear any of the issues you bring up. I think you are painting a fine painting with a sweeper truck.

To each his own.

I prefer headroom, not hearing damage. Headroom is where your choice fails.

Then I'll disregard your previous comment "where the SPL go well into the 100+db region." You either go well into that SPL region or you don't. I certainly don't nor have any desire to.

You do not have to choose quality over quantity. You can have both.

Such is relative.

This comment is pure BS. It does not require a multi hundred thousand dollar budget to get high quality MC sound.

Complete the concept. You must necessarily compromise quality until that level (in my experience) for having to split the amplifier and speaker budget by more than half for a five channel system vs. a two channel one. I have a modest five channel HT system which works fine for that medium. For music, however, I would rather choose better components over more channels. Obviously, your preference is different.

No matter how much you spend on a two channel system, it cannot equal the spatial accuracy that a very good multichannel system can give you.

That's great theory when you completely forget the concept of a musical library. I listen to my music, not concepts. About 1% of the library I've built over the past forty years happens to be MC. Even if the majority of my multi-miked recordings were MC, your comments would not apply because the image would still be artificially created. OTOH, I have heard many true MC Telarc recordings and they do sound nice. But I'm not one of those audiophiles who only listens to a handful of "spectacular" recordings.

You can get 5 TAD speakers or Thiel CS3.7, and Krell or California Labs amplification and get great sound for far less than $504,000+ dollars.

Yes you can if your prefer those speakers.

His system would not even fit in most peoples rooms, and is not realistic for home applications period.

Using Twelve Pro Stats driven by 10 kW of power is certainly not necessary for a home environment. Four of them for the front using smaller versions for the rear would be perfectly adequate.

rw