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  1. #1
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    Your advice for good CD player

    Hi everyone,

    In 1998 I purchased Krell 20 IL CD player because I heard its best CD player and I wanted the best source. After using it I felt its bit analytical, light much of upper frequencies, and little bit unemotional. But I could be wrong about this.

    However, Now im thinking to buy new one and from reviews and reading I found Sony probably is the best and Japanese brands in general, very warm but without sacrificing resolution and details, liquid, coherent, not forward, none fatigue, no harshness no edginess, exactly what im looking for.

    What do you think guys, shall I go for Sony? or any other brand you think have the qualities im looking for or stick with Krell? And what your opinion about Krell 20 IL pros and cons?

    I appreciate any advice.

    Cheers
    Magnepan MG20/ Krell FPB 200 watt amp/ Krell KAV-500 amp/ Krell KPS 20 IL CD player/ Krell Audio Video Standard Preamp & processor/ Project 9.1 turntable Denon 304 cart/ Arcam FMJ tuner/ Arcam 137 DVD/ Tascam 322 tape deck/ JVC vhs/ AQ interconnects: Colorado/ Transprent cable: Super, Ultra, Rference, XL Reference.

  2. #2
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K-High-Fi
    Hi everyone,


    ... very warm but without sacrificing resolution and details, liquid, coherent, not forward, none fatigue, no harshness no edginess, exactly what im looking for.

    What do you think guys, shall I go for Sony?
    Are you opposed to used? What's your budget set at?

    Given the sonic requirements, you are barking up the right tree. However, it's not so much that Japanese CDP's are the best entirely. Certain components however....are indeed so.

    I am a bit of a broken record when it comes to CDP choices. I can tell you that until recently, I was quite opposed to digital in general. It wasn't until I found the Philips TDA 154x series of DAC's, that I realised digital can indeed sound alive.

    If you want a fantastic used piece, Ebay frequently has excellent condition Philips CD-960 and CD-965. Google either and behold.

    I would also suggest the Arcam Alpha 5 if you are able to find one. Incredibly, they still retail for 2 or 300 bucks.

    Of course, moving into newer models. Rega Apollo and Saturn both have fantastic reputations, exhibiting all the characteristics you seek. The Music Hall CD 25 and 25.2 are also tremendous performers.

    Please share with us where your interests are in either used or new, and what you are willing to spend. From there I will gladly rec some machines for you.

    One suggestion I could make, is to use the Krell's digital coax output, and run it into a DAC that has some of the qualities you would like. Turn it into a transport. Are you using the Krell as a preamp, or solely as a CDP? Here is a fantastic DAC which would sound 10 times warmer and smoother than your Krell. Nice price also. Look forward to hearing from you...

    http://www.pacificvalve.us/LITEDACAH.html


  3. #3
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    Whats your budget?

    I would consider a good DAC.

    Without knowing your budget here's a few CDP's under $2k
    Rega Apollo SE a great all around player that does everything well, Cambridge Audio 840c, Rega Saturn. For a warmer sound and SACD play consider any of the high end Marantz players higher than the SA8003 which i found less detailed and muddier than the ones named above.

    For DAC's consider the Van Alstine new vision DAC that also plays hi rez music and has a tube like sound, Bench Mark DAC, Bryston DACs to name a few.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  4. #4
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    If you have a Krell CDP I'm assuming you have equally as good associated gear. If you are serious about keeping with Krell range quality the T+A is actually better. Take a look at the link in my signature. T+A has the refinement and detail of Krell but more musical without being less than neutral. Extremely good bass extension.

    More than budget what other gear do you have? If other Krell gear you have to be careful because not just any player will have synergy with Krell. You need to stick with something like the T+A, Naim, BAT, or similar. The Krell 280cd is a good player. The 28c is much better. But if it's warmth or syrupy you want then you will have to take all the Krell out of the chain.

    Poppa, if "Alpha 5" refers to Arcam that was their entry level piece, it's several years old and not worth $200.00 or $300.00. An Alpha 8 or 9 would still hold it's own. However I had an Alpha 9 and did not like it's synergy with Krell. Their are some higher end Arcam with XLR outputs though that might in the FMJ series. Of course, today it's all FMJ.

    I know I had Frenchmon's Musical Fidelity hooked to my CJ but I can't remember if to Krell.

  5. #5
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    I think you are running away with the Krell assumption Peabody. Let's wait and see what he's using. You're right, it certainly is important. I'm afraid you're mistaken regarding the Alpha 5, it's still very much sought after. It's indeed an older player but if one can be found in good condition, they were built like tanks. They had the TDA 1541A, no longer in production so as a result still pull in a few hundred. Infact, the 1541A is so extremely sought after that there exists a fraudulent marketplace for them. Fakes have popped up on Ebay quite a bit. Anyhow, the DIY crowd are big on these players for modding also.

    You're right about the models further down, the Alpha 7 is also still sought after. It was model 7 in which Arcam switched to a Sony transport. I've read that a modded Alpha8SE is like syrup on your pancakes.

    I am in agreement with Naim, they are wonderfully engineered and represent a purchase which could and should last a lifetime. But in this hobby a lifetime is about what, 6 months?

    What about Klipsch Peabody, they must make a CDP. I would recommend for the OP just putting a Heresy speaker where his CDP usually goes. Doesn't matter if it's hooked up...

  6. #6
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    Thank you all for your great inputs. Poppachubby, Im looking to new condition and my budget can be up to $3000. Im using Krell gear entirely as you can see them in my signature. CD source to Audio Video Standard preamp then to KAV-500 amp.

    However, I will not emphasis on price because lot of high value products doesnít deliver everything! I have Sony DVD player 9000 ES series cost only $650 and deliver very beautiful CD music than Krell! While Krell is more precise and accurate but surprisingly the difference are little! Krell warmer but not coherent as Sony! Also both of them share same soundstage quantity, but I expect Krell to have live performance but sadly nothing of that!

    Also I compare Arcam DV-137 DVD player and its very close to Krell than Sony, still Sony is winning at coherent and enjoyable music than the rest. How DV-137 differ from Arcam dedicate CD player I donít know. So you think guys shall I stick with Krell later products or Rega is the way to go? How about Onkyo or Sony?
    Magnepan MG20/ Krell FPB 200 watt amp/ Krell KAV-500 amp/ Krell KPS 20 IL CD player/ Krell Audio Video Standard Preamp & processor/ Project 9.1 turntable Denon 304 cart/ Arcam FMJ tuner/ Arcam 137 DVD/ Tascam 322 tape deck/ JVC vhs/ AQ interconnects: Colorado/ Transprent cable: Super, Ultra, Rference, XL Reference.

  7. #7
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    Hello K-High-Fi

    Hello,

    I strongly agree with Poppachubby in that you may want to consider using your Krell CDP as a transport and get a quality DAC instead of a new CDP!

    I've recently purchased the Stello DA100 Signature Digital-to-Analog Converter and CDT100 Transport and love it. While I still think the Naim DAC $5K, and Lector CDP-7T/Mk III CD Player @ aprox $6.5K are a tad more musical and refined than the Stello rig I still feel the Stello is a bargain buy and I can live with it.

    If it's a new CDP that you want there are certainly a great number of choices in your budget range. I've heard the Rega Apollo a couple of times and while it certainly has resolution/detail/pace I did not find it to be warm per se...so, you should listen to it first if you can.

    Simaudio gets a lot of favorable reviews on their CDP's and the reputation is for warm musical reproduction. Check it out at http://www.simaudio.com/

    Hating to sound like a broken record but you may want to try to bring home some DACS to try out with your Krell CDP and see if that may work for you instead of a new CDP. I am assuming that the Krell has a digital out.

    Good luck with your research and selection.

    LeRoy

  8. #8
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    Poppa, you don't know what you are talking about. The Alpha 5 was the very entry level piece, you go up in line as the number gets higher. They absolutely were NOT built like tanks. The fronts are plastic and the chasis thin aluminum. This is why Arcam moved to FMJ, they got too much criticism on how the gear looked. I owned an Alpha 9 and very familiar with the line. There's also more to a player than a DAC chip. I can't remember if the 5 could be upgraded but the sales pitch was you could buy a lower Alpha and buy the upgrade to the next highest model at a later date. Meaning you kept your same unit they just swapped out a module. I haven't seen it done so I don't know what the "module" consisted of.

    K-High how are you hookinng these players up? Are you always using the analog out? The Sony player sounding better is laughable. I believe you like it better but have to wonder what the problem is. The 20i is older DAC technology but the basic Krell character should be there. You should notice with the Krell instruments seemingly more realistic, what I call "having more weight", it's like they are not as thin sounding as some players. Percussion should have more snap and punch. Have you tried an XLR connection? Things like a saxophone should sound more convincing as real with the Krell player being able to have more tonal info. Some time back I had an Alpha 9 going to a Krell integrated. I didn't like the synergy. The sound wasn't bad but something wasn't right. I tried a Krell 250 with the Krell amp and it was instantly obvious there was a synergy. I believe the 9 may have been slightly faster a maybe even a bit more detailed as the bass wasn't as heavy but the Krell player and amp together had a coherence to the music and presentation that was obvious, the characters I was talking about shined through, the instruments having more weight etc.

    You may find that you just don't like the Krell sound. Their high current design is instilled in every piece of gear including the CD player and gives a distinct character to their presentation. The Sony player should sound noticeably more thin and less impact to the music. The Arcam 137 should even be noticeably more detailed than the Sony. If you are using any digital connection you aren't hearing the player, you are hearing the Showcase internal DAC. It would be interesting to see how the 20i's analog out compares to the Showcase internal DAC. The internal DAC should be a more modern digital conversion but I find DAC's used for surround sound typically don't perform as well as a comparable stand alone player for some reason.

  9. #9
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    Mr. P, you bring up an interesting and important sidepoint

    It all be a matter of connectivity. Possibly a different connection configuration or different brand of wire may change the sound favorably to what the user is looking for. I know from my recent experiences in sampling different audio set up's it turned out that whenever I used digital coax, speaker wire, and IC's from Blue Marble Audio it seemed to be the difference maker in bringing out or delivering what the electronics are/were capable of.

    I always forget about this very important and not so subtle impact of connectivity in a system. Great reminder there Mr. P.

  10. #10
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    Mr Peabody, I always use Transparent XLR analog connection to preamp (are transparent cables ok?). Since I purchased Krell CD player in 1998 I always listen to Krell FPB 200 watt amp, just recently I remove it and use KAV-500, 100-watt pc. Of course, the music improvement through FPB is more obvious than KAV… but with my room size appeared 100-watt pc is much better than powerful 200 watt because the later showing thickness in the sound and very strain! Only recently I discover this. Ok Mr. Peabody I will run a taste again and let you know. Thank you very much for brining this.

    Internal DAC Vs, separate DAC! As far I know: in beginning of 90s this was best way to go: CD transport connects to separate DAC, but later I learned its best to combine the two in one unit, so there is no need for a separate D/A. Now im confused! So which one is better?

    And by the way what do you think of Mark Levinson? I know they still make transport and D/A.

    Thanks and Cheers
    Magnepan MG20/ Krell FPB 200 watt amp/ Krell KAV-500 amp/ Krell KPS 20 IL CD player/ Krell Audio Video Standard Preamp & processor/ Project 9.1 turntable Denon 304 cart/ Arcam FMJ tuner/ Arcam 137 DVD/ Tascam 322 tape deck/ JVC vhs/ AQ interconnects: Colorado/ Transprent cable: Super, Ultra, Rference, XL Reference.

  11. #11
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    I would give these Marantz CDP's a look, marantz haas a nice warm sound

    http://www.us.marantz.com/Products/2865.asp

    http://us.marantz.com/Products/2250.asp

    http://us.marantz.com/Products/2604.asp


    I still like the idea of a good DAC. With a budget of $3k you have a lot of options.

    http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=75323.0

    I would still highly consider auditioning this new Van Alstine Vision DAC. There's a few people that have preferred it over the Bryston BDA-1 which sells for $2k. 30 day money back guarentee. And Frank VA is a pleasure to deal with.

    You may want to consider getting an Oppo BD-83se or the NuForce modified Oppo BD-83se to use as an SACD player and transport and buy a DAC for STD CD play.


    I would still give the Rega Apollo SE an audition if your looking for a great bargain. Its a real giant killer. I recently heard it paired with a Theta amp and preamp on a pair of Magnepan QR1.6's and it was on the warm side of neutral. It could have been the amp/pre giving the warm sound but you never know what a piece of equipment is going to sound like in your system till you get it home. Also consider the Rega Saturn.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  12. #12
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    Transparent is a good cable to use for Krell. It's what our Krell dealer sold and seems to be a good match. Some people are down on Levinson and I've heard their quality control is in the toilet. They make very good DAC's with built in reclocking to minimize the effect of transport difference amongst other benefits. I used Transparent with Krell and still have it in my HT set up and 2nd system, which by the way is a Krell amp.

    My point was not to bring up debate of whether separate DAC or single box is a better way to go. I wanted to be sure when you say the Sony is better than Krell you are comparing both analog outputs. Your Krell preamp has a built in DAC, if using a digital connection to the preamp from any player you are hearing the Krell preamp internal DAC, NOT the CD player.

    I've had good luck with both single box and separate DAC. I will say when I got my Audio Note DAC surprisingly using the Krell CD player as transport their was still Krell influence. The Audio Note DAC sounded preferrable to me when I added an EAD transport and took the Krell out of the chain. So if you are finding you don't like the Krell sound I'd suggest an entire different digital playback.

    I really think you should probably hold off on any major electronics change until finding different speakers. The 20's overwhelming your room is something not going to be cured by different electronics.

  13. #13
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    Talking

    I really think you should probably hold off on any major electronics change until finding different speakers. The 20's overwhelming your room is something not going to be cured by different electronics.[/QUOTE]


    I'll trade you my Mgnepan 1.6's for your MG 20's.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  14. #14
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Poppa, you don't know what you are talking about. The Alpha 5 was the very entry level piece, you go up in line as the number gets higher. They absolutely were NOT built like tanks. The fronts are plastic and the chasis thin aluminum. This is why Arcam moved to FMJ, they got too much criticism on how the gear looked. I owned an Alpha 9 and very familiar with the line. There's also more to a player than a DAC chip. I can't remember if the 5 could be upgraded but the sales pitch was you could buy a lower Alpha and buy the upgrade to the next highest model at a later date. Meaning you kept your same unit they just swapped out a module. I haven't seen it done so I don't know what the "module" consisted of.

    .
    I'm certainly not going to argue with you and crap this guys thread.

    As much as I don't think this unit is the greatest player ever made, it has a large following still. It's stock sound is easy to live with and again, easily modded so that it's flaws are no issue to deal with.

    You're right, more than just a D/A chip...it's circuitry and chassis are laid out in a way which promote mods and repairs. I am in agreement that the 7 onwards are better built and the Delta had it's fine moments.

    A simple Google search shows one of many transactions. A lightly modded unit for $200...no fuss no muss. If I had noticed his sig, or knew his budget, I wouldn't have mentioned it. Seems rather ridiculous in the face of a $3K budget.

    http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/swap-...ayer-sale.html

    K-High-Fi your budget is superb. I suggested the DAC as a possible cost savings measure but in your range, seek out an all in one IMO. You are fortunate enough to be looking at high end Regas, I second the opinion of some auditioning. I think if you can listen to any Naim, you would find their output pleasing to your ear.

  15. #15
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Cool

    CD is dead
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  16. #16
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    Pix your remaining brain cell is almost dead.

    Just funning ya son.

  17. #17
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    Thank you all very much for your great inputs, I will take some listening to Rega and Marants, I know Marants very well from 70s, great sound. I hope still same magic as the old days.

    I asked Krell many times before about using digital output and always confirmed analog output is much better. And this what I found when I connect a good digital cable (Kimber) from Krell 20 IL to digital processor in Krell AVS, the sound was lousy and bit noisy and far from warm.
    Magnepan MG20/ Krell FPB 200 watt amp/ Krell KAV-500 amp/ Krell KPS 20 IL CD player/ Krell Audio Video Standard Preamp & processor/ Project 9.1 turntable Denon 304 cart/ Arcam FMJ tuner/ Arcam 137 DVD/ Tascam 322 tape deck/ JVC vhs/ AQ interconnects: Colorado/ Transprent cable: Super, Ultra, Rference, XL Reference.

  18. #18
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    I spent about an hour in front of a Sonic Frontiers SFCD-1 today. Brand new they are roughly 3K. The sound is overwhelmingly natural and accurate. Extreme realism with stringed instruments. Just a suggestion, if you're able to audition one.

  19. #19
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    K-high if you are looking for warm have you check out Shanling? Krell isn't going to be warm. Rega and Marantz however is a step backward in my opinion.

  20. #20
    Can a crooner get a gig? dean_martin's Avatar
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    With a budget of up to $3000, I would want to audition an Ayre CX-7e. This model came out in 07 and improved on the earlier CX-7 (no "e") at a price of $2950. A newer model might be out now, but you might find a dealer with the CX-7e at a discount. I don't own any Ayre products, but the main guy from Ayre - Charles Hansen, I think - regularly answers posts about his equipment on audioasylum.com. He's been interviewed many times in the audio press and emphasizes customer support. Most of the Ayre products are designed with upgrade paths in mind to take advantage of new technology down the road.

    In addition to the Ayre, I think I would want to audition a tubed cd player from Cary. Cary's higher end tubed gear is known for epitomizing "tube" sound. If you want warm, lush sound with midrange to die for, check out some tubed cd players.

    If you think you might have future interest in video playback, sacd or dvd-audio you might want to consider a universal player with a good reputation for cd playback. One of the popular ones of late is the Oppo BDP-83SE.

  21. #21
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    Heh...FYI, the SFCD-1 is tubed.

  22. #22
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    Is that Sonic Frontier a current model or a rebuild/mod? I wasn't aware they had any current models. We have a couple Anthem dealers but neither have any SF. I asked one time about the line and they denied any current gear, but they are prejudice against tubes any way. It's terrible the only tubes in this town is a long standing ARC dealer.

  23. #23
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    Sonic Frontiers went under, but the president founded Parts Connexion and does mods, buys/sells them still. The unit I was listening to had been modded by the owner. My first reply said "are" instead of "were"...

  24. #24
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    I have owned a MHZS 66F, a Chinese made top loader with Telefunken 12AX7 tubes, for several years. It has excellent sound and it's build quality is very high. I don't think I've ever fed it a disc it couldn't read and it's switchable to 176.4khz.

    I recall reading a post by a person who owned a newer Krell and the MHZS 33 and who felt they were comparable.

  25. #25
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    I really regret. Selling my classe cdp.3. It had a really good bottom end. i saw one for sale for 450 recently
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