What audio brands are you not attracted to?

[elapsed]

Or brands that you consider to be over-rated? Here I'll start.. B&W, McIntosh, NAD, Klipsch

cheers,
elapsed

[02audionoob]

Any specific differences between perception and reality on these brands?

[elapsed]

Sure, for instance in McIntosh's case I can't work out what the fuss is all about. Absolutely gorgeous gear, but I find myself bored out of my mind listening to McIntosh speakers and separates

cheers,
elapsed

[Feanor]

Or brands that you consider to be over-rated? Here I'll start.. B&W, McIntosh, NAD, Klipsch

cheers,
elapsed

I agree on all these brands.

There are hundreds of boutique brands of tube equipment (in particular) in which I'd have zero interest. And for some reason I can't see my self going for Manley, Cary, or Conrad Johnson. The CJ case is marginal, though; mainly I don't like the looks, (sorry Mr Peabody).

On the speaker side, Audio Note comes to mind, (sorry RGA). Another weird brand I wouldn't consider is Coincident, (although they're Canadian). I wouldn't look at Axiom, (also Canadian ; apologies, my countryfolk). Once again there are main minor brands I wouldn't give any thought to, e.g. Eminent or VMPS though they do user ribbon drivers.

[Mr Peabody]

We have a dealer carrying NAD now and some of my recent experience has changed my mind where they are concerned. I used to not like them either but the recent gear I've heard has been good. I agree that it isn't going to appeal to everyone. They seem to have gone to a very dark sound. I have to admit that's probably why they interested me. I love gear that has that dark black velvet curtain behind the music. Some brands call themselves "more liquid" which I can only interpret from hearing said lines is that "liquid" tends to give the feeling of chilly and almost a glare in comparison.

Klipsch and Bose would be some where at the top of my list of repulsive. A couple major brands I don't like are newer Audio Research and Classe'. I'm also not fond of the Primare CD player sound. And let's not forget Vandersteen, they'd be just under the other two speaker brands. I respect Rotel as a good product for the money but don't care for their sound. B&W I am in the middle with, I don't dislike them as the other speakers I've mentioned but they aren't my choice or type of sound either. I try to keep an open mind with B&W because most of the time I've heard them was with ARC, Classe' or Rotel. I can't help thinking maybe they sound better with other electronics I prefer.

I have to admit the look of my amp is a bit odd but I have become a die hard fan of the CJ sound.

[elapsed]

Klipsch and Bose would be some where at the top of my list of repulsive. A couple major brands I don't like are newer Audio Research and Classe'.

I'll have to agree, Klipsh makes my ears bleed. So does Cerwin Vega. As for Classe, I've heard a B&W 800-Series with Classe system plenty of times, always found the system underwealming (though I'm sure many would counter that sentiment)

Off-topic, but the same goes for me with Runco, possibly the most over-rated and over-priced HDTV's ever built (though I have nothing but positive things to say on their projector line)

cheers,
elapsed

[audio amateur]

Nice thread!
Someone mentionned Cerwin-Vega. Nasty! LOL
That would probably be on the top of my list.
Klipsch, JBL, Infinity... I have to say there aren't many that I utterly dislike. I can't think of that many at the moment

[02audionoob]

Cerwin Vega, JBL and Infinity seem to be mostly known for what is more or less mass-market equipment. They don't seem overrated to me...just economical. Now B&W...that one I'd like to hear more about. Are we talking all of their stuff or just certain levels of it?

[Ajani]

OK, I'll play this game (though I should point out that brand bashing has a tendency to get nasty!!!)...

Cerwin Vega, JBL, Infinity & Klipsch all sound fine for the money... Plus you should keep in mind that most people only hear these brands in best buy and with some ultra cheapo receiver... not on a good quality 2 channel rig...

Anyway, I've generally found the following brands to be boring (not bad, just not interesting enough to make me want to spend money on them):

Dynaudio
Arcam
Totem
NAD
PSB


B&W sounds nice to me, but gives me serious listening fatigue after about half an hour...

And the only truly, absolutely, 100% AWFUL sounding setup I've ever heard was:

Magnepan MG12 with a McIntosh Integrated Amp & CD Player... I honestly, have to just believe that the system was not setup correctly or I wasn't anywhere near the sweet spot... It just sounded BAD... not bass deficient or with rolled off treble or anything like that... just muddy, strange and undefined...

[elapsed]

And the only truly, absolutely, 100% AWFUL sounding setup I've ever heard was:

Magnepan MG12 with a McIntosh Integrated Amp & CD Player... I honestly, have to just believe that the system was not setup correctly or I wasn't anywhere near the sweet spot... It just sounded BAD... not bass deficient or with rolled off treble or anything like that... just muddy, strange and undefined...

Ajani, please please give Maggies another chance, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were given the wrong room and not setup correctly, they have every ability to shine

cheers,
elapsed

[Ajani]

Ajani, please please give Maggies another chance, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were given the wrong room and not setup correctly, they have every ability to shine

cheers,
elapsed

Hopefully, one day I'll get to try out some Maggie 1.6s.... I find it strange that I had such a bad experience with the MG12s, considering how impressed I was some Final Sound 400i electrostats I heard... I always thought that Maggies and Stats should have a fairly similar sound...

[Brick Top]

Well I should only comment on brands I have had experience with...but I was in retail A/V at one time.

For speakers I would have to say Klipsch, Polk, Paridigm, Bose & Jamo.

Receivers, systems & separates....Pioneer, Kenwood, Classe, Bose.

Did I mention Bose?

Cheers,
BT

[IBSTORMIN]

Cerwin Vega, JBL, Infinity & Klipsch all sound fine for the money... Plus you should keep in mind that most people only hear these brands in best buy and with some ultra cheapo receiver... not on a good quality 2 channel rig...

To add to this, it seems what is in the Best Buy stores is a knock-offf of the higher end equipment.....the same tweeter that is in their best with multiple mid-range drivers is now put into a 2-way configuration and it is WAY too bright. The Infinity speakers I have are a good example of this, the Prelude PFR has 4-5.25 midrange with one silk tweeter and sounds really good, smoother than their Overture 3's of the same line in the 90's which in comparison sounds too bright. Their bookshelfs are way too bright and boomy with a back port. The Infinity 2000's replacement of this is the Prelude MTS and is class "A" rated but you put that CMMD tweeter in anything with lesser mid/bass and it is TOO bright and irritating. Infinity, after loosing alot of market, realized this and changed to the MMD driver in their lower end speakers, which is not as bright. Klipsch is the same way, BB speakers are just TOO bright but I haven't heard their high end stuff. JBL is also too bright with their Titanium tweeter in their lesser speakers.The only thing I like in Cerwin Vega is their 15" sub I have, it's not a lot of power but it is musical and clean. I just don't like Polk. Infinity designs a line of drivers and a couple years later when Infinity changes drivers, Polk picks up what Infinity was using. Infinity's 90's silk dome is what I lat saw that Polk is using now, but Polk doesn't do it as well as Infinity. Polk always sounds distorted to me, not smooth and clean. And of course, Bose is a four letter word.
As you can tell, I like Infinity and climbed to the top of their 90's line and am happy with it but.......I wonder what others would sound like it my system....Prelude MTS, Martin Logan, Maggies???

[hermanv]

The big block stores are focused on impulse buyers. As a result speakers they sell will have a lot of flash/bang. Which is to say an exaggerated treble, bass or both. Most serious buyers will spend far more time listening.

A serious buyer will also wonder why people might spend several grand for a speaker pair when all five surround speakers and the sub woofer retail for under $900 at the big box store.

I worked in telephony and know that many studies were done to ascertain the minimum sound quality level people would tolerate when cell phones were first being developed. People are conditioned to accept poor quality sound, listen to any PA system. (ps: I personally suspect that poor sound is why people who can drive fine talking to a passenger can not drive fine while using a cell phone. Subconsciously a lot of brain horsepower is being diverted to making those awful noises from the phone into recognizable speech.)

It takes exposure over hours or even days for your ears to learn what they have been missing. Listening for an extended period of time to a truly good system, will open your ears.

[squeegy200]

[QUOTE=IBSTORMIN]..... And of course, Bose is a four letter word.
............[QUOTE]


Jumping into this conversation late. But I think most here would appreciate never owning this brand in their personal systems.

I sold many pairs of Bose speaker systems when I worked for Pacific Stereo back in my college days. I never could comprehend why they were held in such esteem but I sold them anyways because I needed the paycheck. The demand remained high--even when compared next other systems in A/B tests. A large percentage of consumers still preferred the Bose to other available speaker systems. I had to conclude from my experience with retail--that the consumer public associates volume with quality. Sound quality is subjective but "louder is better" is quantifiable.

I had a recent experience to validate my theory. I found a pair of the old "legendary" Bose 901 Series IIs at a friend's garage sale. She was unable to sell them and was about to toss them in the garbage. I told her to wait on these. I took them and purchased a re-ring kit from a local speaker builder store for $59.95. I refurbished the pair and hooked them up to my system. I was immediately reminded of the atrocious sound presence that I remembered from my days at Pacific Stereo. Back then they sold for near $1000.

I posted them on eBay and had a flurry of bids eventually selling for near $600 + $75 for shipping. Not a bad return for an aging speaker system over 20 years of age.

[manlystanley]

I posted them on eBay and had a flurry of bids eventually selling for near $600 + $75 for shipping. Not a bad return for an aging speaker system over 20 years of age.

Amazing... I have a pair of Bose 201's below my kitchen cabinets.they are only used to push out sound and basically nothing else. Yet, people come in my house and are impressed that I have such high quality speakers......

Best Regards,
Stan

[IBSTORMIN]

Amazing... I have a pair of Bose 201's below my kitchen cabinets.they are only used to push out sound and basically nothing else. Yet, people come in my house and are impressed that I have such high quality speakers......

Best Regards,
Stan

Markerting is the reason. Bose has alot of people convinced they have the best. Alot of people see the name and know you spent alot of money. Those that have heard, compared and can hear the difference, know you spent too much for the sound quality you have. Just my 2 cents.

[02audionoob]

How about some positives? Any comment on underrated equipment...especially speakers?

[elapsed]

How about some positives? Any comment on underrated equipment...especially speakers?

Tough question.. I'd say Totem loudspeakers are very underrated, but always put a huge smile on my face. The Totem Arro is no exception, surprisingly good bass and an astonishly big sound from such a small column.

cheers,
elapsed

[Doc Sage]

I am of the opinion that reproduction equipments are to be totally transparent and should let all the music be experience without adding or substrating from it. That said, any equipment that leaves it's stamp on the music is to be avoided.

Speakers are usually the most offending. JBL and the West Coast Sound proponents were always too bright. Most of these hyper efficient speakers are not respectful of the music, it's about making noise not music. They are hard on my ears after a short listening. You can add Klipsch to this group.

With the New England sound, many speakers brands became much more enjoyable. Today we have Boston Speakers to thank for this and many Canadian are from the same thinking. Paradign, Energy, Axion are all wonderful speakers that are doing great sound waves at a lower price point. Totem is reaching up to a higher level, they get my nod.

The Japanese electronic trade done great stuff at the lower budget end, who can fault a $300.- receiver that turn most of us to the joy of music. But in our quest to higher fidelity most have been by-past. A few I still look at for what they offer, Denon, Onkyo and Luxman comes to mind. NAD was responsable of showing what was missing at a certain price point but I do not know how well they are doing these days.

Mckintosh is the fore father of all that is audiophile. With their attention to the various parts that makes up an amplifier, they showed us what can be done with repoduction music. I think of them as the Rolls Royce of our fetishes. They got all my respect but I turn to Ferrari for my thrills these days. Sorry.

Someone above said that B&W and the likes left him unimpress. Why? Is it because colouration is not added to the music? Is it because he was not able to hear the intrinsic sound of these speakers? As I listen to David + David this morning, it the quality of David's voice, the sound of the electic guitars and the impact of the drum that I listen to, not the distortion added by my equipment. When I look at Picasso, I like to see the true colour shades used by the artist and not what I see through my rose colour glasses.

Doc Sage

[Ajani]

I am of the opinion that reproduction equipments are to be totally transparent and should let all the music be experience without adding or substrating from it. That said, any equipment that leaves it's stamp on the music is to be avoided.

Speakers are usually the most offending. JBL and the West Coast Sound proponents were always too bright. Most of these hyper efficient speakers are not respectful of the music, it's about making noise not music. They are hard on my ears after a short listening. You can add Klipsch to this group.

With the New England sound, many speakers brands became much more enjoyable. Today we have Boston Speakers to thank for this and many Canadian are from the same thinking. Paradign, Energy, Axion are all wonderful speakers that are doing great sound waves at a lower price point. Totem is reaching up to a higher level, they get my nod.

The Japanese electronic trade done great stuff at the lower budget end, who can fault a $300.- receiver that turn most of us to the joy of music. But in our quest to higher fidelity most have been by-past. A few I still look at for what they offer, Denon, Onkyo and Luxman comes to mind. NAD was responsable of showing what was missing at a certain price point but I do not know how well they are doing these days.

Mckintosh is the fore father of all that is audiophile. With their attention to the various parts that makes up an amplifier, they showed us what can be done with repoduction music. I think of them as the Rolls Royce of our fetishes. They got all my respect but I turn to Ferrari for my thrills these days. Sorry.

Someone above said that B&W and the likes left him unimpress. Why? Is it because colouration is not added to the music? Is it because he was not able to hear the intrinsic sound of these speakers? As I listen to David + David this morning, it the quality of David's voice, the sound of the electic guitars and the impact of the drum that I listen to, not the distortion added by my equipment. When I look at Picasso, I like to see the true colour shades used by the artist and not what I see through my rose colour glasses.

Doc Sage

This extract from Benchmark (in a letter that comes standard with the DAC1) best expresses how I fee about neutrality and coloration:

If you plan to use effects to achieve specific coloration with your music, that's just fine. As an artist with his palate, choose processing equipment, microphones, preamplifiers, instruments and recording locations that have the particular sounds that you wish to incorporate into your audio canvass. The two places where coloration is unwise, is with A-to-D and D-to-A converters. Without the cleanest recording and playback, you will never able to accurately judge and control how the final product sounds to the end user. You need total accuracy.

For me, source needs to be as clean as possible... but if you want to tailor amplification (pre or power) & speakers to get a specific sound, that's OK... Why should the producer/band be the only artists in your HiFi? If you want to be one as well, then have fun with it!!!

[Ajani]

Tough question.. I'd say Totem loudspeakers are very underrated, but always put a huge smile on my face. The Totem Arro is no exception, surprisingly good bass and an astonishly big sound from such a small column.

cheers,
elapsed

I don't think Totem speakers are underrated... they've received excellent reviews worldwide...

Unfortunately for me, though I've heard Totems many times, they were always driven by Arcam gear... I'd love to hear a Naim/Totem combo though, since it's supposed to have good synergy...

A question often asked about Totem though is:

Is the bass really impressive or just impressive considering the size and lack of drivers on the speakers?

[Auricauricle]

Seems to me that the thrust of many of these denuciations comes from a deeper dicontent with hype and ubiquity. In a sense, you have to sympathize with manufacturers who find themselves at war with one another to become the premier brand. In turn, they produces innumerable units and models, filling every foresseable niche. Add to this the attendant "buzz" extolling the manufacturers' wares, and it gets pretty wearisome.

While for lay people, all of this is failrly innocuous, we "audiophiles" become increasingly leery. This is especially true in regard to products appealing to the mainstream: that if a manufacturers going to spend a bunch of money in developing new models and marketing them, they better damn well deliver; otherwise, they're hacks. On the other hand, brands that are sold by their reputations, there is little need to be so aggressive (or innovative?). Knowing their products of the past to be sound, there is little expectation for those standards to improve. For the mainstream, this works out fine; for audiophiles in the know, the proof will always be in the pudding.

As examples, I will point to Klipsch and Cary. Klipsch is a fairly respectable company, producing speakers that were well considered. Unfortunately, the pressures of demand and the attendant hype drove the quality of many of their products down. For the masses whose ears were not as sensitive as their discerning cousins, this did not matter much. Now the manufacturer of the well received Klipschorn, LaScala and Heresey produces many other speakers that sound much like their contemporaries.

Cary is a brand that is widely seen as a manufacturer of excellent equipment, but--and this is an intuitive hunch based on what I have seen in ads and models I've noted for sale--not very innovative. Part of this, I reckon, rests upon the medium--how many variations of the tube amp can one come up with? So, while Cary's standards of workmanship have remained pretty high, many interested customers have snapped their products up. On the other hand, Cary's products have not shown much innovation, so, among audiophiles, they don't move with as much vigor as they might if their products were au courant.

In sum, manufacturers face the dilemma of caving to mass consumer expectation and standards anticipated by the audiophile market. Both have valid and influential arguments to make, and companies who are canny enough to listen will survive. Whether or not they measure up is a different ball o' wax altogether.

[Ajani]

Seems to me that the thrust of many of these denuciations comes from a deeper dicontent with hype and ubiquity. In a sense, you have to sympathize with manufacturers who find themselves at war with one another to become the premier brand. In turn, they produces innumerable units and models, filling every foresseable niche. Add to this the attendant "buzz" extolling the manufacturers' wares, and it gets pretty wearisome.

While for lay people, all of this is failrly innocuous, we "audiophiles" become increasingly leery. This is especially true in regard to products appealing to the mainstream: that if a manufacturers going to spend a bunch of money in developing new models and marketing them, they better damn well deliver; otherwise, they're hacks. On the other hand, brands that are sold by their reputations, there is little need to be so aggressive (or innovative?). Knowing their products of the past to be sound, there is little expectation for those standards to improve. For the mainstream, this works out fine; for audiophiles in the know, the proof will always be in the pudding.

As examples, I will point to Klipsch and Cary. Klipsch is a fairly respectable company, producing speakers that were well considered. Unfortunately, the pressures of demand and the attendant hype drove the quality of many of their products down. For the masses whose ears were not as sensitive as their discerning cousins, this did not matter much. Now the manufacturer of the well received Klipschorn, LaScala and Heresey produces many other speakers that sound much like their contemporaries.

Cary is a brand that is widely seen as a manufacturer of excellent equipment, but--and this is an intuitive hunch based on what I have seen in ads and models I've noted for sale--not very innovative. Part of this, I reckon, rests upon the medium--how many variations of the tube amp can one come up with? So, while Cary's standards of workmanship have remained pretty high, many interested customers have snapped their products up. On the other hand, Cary's products have not shown much innovation, so, among audiophiles, they don't move with as much vigor as they might if their products were au courant.

In sum, manufacturers face the dilemma of caving to mass consumer expectation and standards anticipated by the audiophile market. Both have valid and influential arguments to make, and companies who are canny enough to listen will survive. Whether or not they measure up is a different ball o' wax altogether.

Frankly, I'm happy that non-audiophiles have an influence on the audio market.... otherwise all we'd have to choose from would be speakers the size of barnyard doors with matching aesthetic appeal, vinyl and tubes.... No portable music, CDs, music servers, efficient Class D amplification...

[Mr Peabody]

Maggies actually sound quite different from electrostats.

Klipsch actually sounds better on cheap receivers. I had a pair hooked to a Krell integrated amp and when I turned up the volume the sound was horrible, the speakers distorted to the point the music was pretty much unrecognizeable.