What audio brands are you not attracted to?

[Ajani]

AJ: I'm not sure if I buy you're argument. If I follow you, CD's, portable music etc. was driven by the "non-audiophile market". I'll think about this statement but will state immediately that these markets were driven by the availablility of transistors, which made it possible to "do more with less". Add to that research done in psychoaccoustics, the need for creating huge watt-hungry amps and speakers "the size of barnyard doors" was no longer dictated. You still make an interesting point, and I will ponder it some more....

I don't think that the non-audiophile market is the reason a lot of the research was launched... I believe the research was often launched with the intention of advancing overall sound quality... however, I believe the reason these products managed to get a foothold in the market and eventually dominate is because of non-audiophiles...

Left up to many 'audiophiles', CDs would never have survived since the original CDs sounded really bad compared to vinyl... But I believe that acceptance by the mass market of CDs is what forced many audiophile brands to take the medium seriously and advance it to the point where it is today... Class D amps have been around for decades, but the desire for smaller, more efficient, lifestyle systems by the mass market has led to new interest by audiophile brands in Class D tech...

I believe Music Servers were a mass market invention based on MP3s and iPods, but now so many major audiophile brands are taking serious interest in pushing the limits of that technology... Brands like Linn are now producing more music server products than CD players...

So basically I think that many of the popular technologies would have been stillborn if not for their acceptance by non-audiophiles (who embraced the tech for reasons other than sound quality - such as convenience, portability and durability - things that were never priorities for audiophiles)...

[Feanor]

[quote=Ajani] ...
Left up to many 'audiophiles', CDs would never have survived since the original CDs sounded really bad compared to vinyl... But I believe that acceptance by the mass market of CDs is what forced many audiophile brands to take the medium seriously and advance it to the point where it is today... Class D amps have been around for decades, but the desire for smaller, more efficient, lifestyle systems by the mass market has led to new interest by audiophile brands in Class D tech...

I believe Music Servers were a mass market invention based on MP3s and iPods, but now so many major audiophile brands are taking serious interest in pushing the limits of that technology... Brands like Linn are now producing more music server products than CD players
... quote]

Perhaps you're right, Ajani, but it's a sad commentary just the same.

I was an audiophile when CDs hit the scene, and I bought a CDP when the prices came down to $500 -- a lot more then than now. The sound of my first CDP, a Yamaha CD2 as I recall was a little sharp but, hey, no clicks & pops and I escaped the pain-in-the-butt rituals of handling LPs. In a real sense laziness is a big driver for me, I'll admit: I hate handling CDs, never mind LPs. The great virtue of servers or computer-source music is convenience, but in this case the sound is as good or better than a CDP.

As for Class D, (switching), amps they're here and many are great. Believe that it isn't the non-audiophiles that are buying Spectral, Bel Canto, NuForces, PS Audio, etc..

For me it is really sad that audiophiles still adhere to vinyl. Now that we have indubitably superior media such as SACD, not only better sound but multi-channel to boot, there is no technical -- or rational -- reason for vinyl. Yet the mindless stubborness of vinylphiles might be consigning that medium to the trash bin.

[elapsed]

For me it is really sad that audiophiles still adhere to vinyl. Now that we have indubitably superior media such as SACD, not only better sound but multi-channel to boot, there is no technical -- or rational -- reason for vinyl. Yet the mindless stubborness of vinylphiles might be consigning that medium to the trash bin.

Wow that's quite the post, Feanor..

I purchased my first turntable last year, and I enjoy her just as much as my CD player for reasons you may not relate to. 1) huge selection of used vinyl that I can't find on CD and also at a very reasonable price, 2) I enjoy entire album's instead of frequently flipping through CD or MP3 tracks, 3) there's a certain amount of love that goes into spinning vinyl that can't be replicated with any other medium, 4) as a hobbiest/audiophile, turntables offer a really fun and easy way to tweak my system, and last but not least, 5) my turntable is outstanding; well mastered albums still offers more music and soul than my Naim CD player which is bloody amazing in its own right

Notice nowhere did I mention multi-channel audio, detail or resolution. When I go to a live concert, these are not elements I'm listening for. It's not about technical superiority, it's about a love of music

cheers,
elapsed

[Feanor]

Wow that's quite the post, Feanor..

I purchased my first turntable last year, and I enjoy her just as much as my CD player for reasons you may not relate to. 1) huge selection of used vinyl that I can't find on CD and also at a very reasonable price, 2) I enjoy entire album's instead of frequently flipping through CD or MP3 tracks, 3) there's a certain amount of love that goes into spinning vinyl that can't be replicated with any other medium, 4) as a hobbiest/audiophile, turntables offer a really fun and easy way to tweak my system, and last but not least, 5) my turntable is outstanding; well mastered albums still offers more music and soul than my Naim CD player which is bloody amazing in its own right

Notice nowhere did I mention multi-channel audio, detail or resolution. When I go to a live concert, these are not elements I'm listening for. It's not about technical superiority, it's about a love of music

cheers,
elapsed

Your first paragraph is an excellent summary of the reasons people mention for liking vinyl. I wasn't persuaded of them 25 years ago and I'm not today. I still have vinyl play back capability, (albeit not great quality), but I basically never use it.

As for multi-channel, I mention it for the very reason that it can, and on great recordings does, produce something close to the live experience than is possible with stereo. Don't believe this? Perhaps because you haven't just haven't heard good recordings on a properly set up system: you should seek that experience.

[elapsed]

As for multi-channel, I mention it for the very reason that it can, and on great recordings does, produce something close to the live experience than is possible with stereo. Don't believe this? Perhaps because you haven't just haven't heard good recordings on a properly set up system: you should seek that experience.

I've got no motivation to listen to a multi-channel system, my own system at home was designed as 2-channel and I'm fully content with what I have, regardless of advances in technology. Originally when I was designing the system I was leaning towards a surround home theater, however for the money I had saved towards investing in a full 5.1 system with pre-pro and poweramp I was able to build a far more capable 2.0 system, not to mention I couldn't be bothered to wire my entire living room for surround.

My system is used 90% for music, 10% for home theater. The vast majority of music that I listen to has been released only on vinyl and CD. But to each their own, I'm sure you enjoy your system equally as much

cheers,
elapsed

[E-Stat]

...there is no technical -- or rational -- reason for vinyl. Yet the mindless stubborness of vinylphiles might be consigning that medium to the trash bin.

No *rational* reason? So, who will fund the replacement of my 600 odd albums with the CD or SACD equivalents? I am loathe to spend another $8k to replace all of them largely for convenience. Nor am I really motivated to spend hundreds of hours of effort to rip, separate, and process all the tracks digitally (although I have done so in small amounts).

I seriously doubt that vinyl-o-philes are responsible for the relative lackluster support of the hi-rez mediums. I think a far more likely cause is due to the availability of inexpensive "singles" usually packaged in the opposite fidelity medium - low bit rate MP3s found on iTunes, etc.

Contact me and I'll provide the address for mailing the $8,000 check. Then I'll buy that EMM Labs CD-SA immediately.

rw

[Ajani]

I seriously doubt that vinyl-o-philes are responsible for the relative lackluster support of the hi-rez mediums. I think a far more likely cause is due to the availability of inexpensive "singles" usually packaged in the opposite fidelity medium - low bit rate MP3s found on iTunes, etc.

If all the Vinyl lovers were to suddenly switch their support to SACD, then that medium would still be a niche market product...

Non-Audiophiles determine what sells well, as Audiophiles are only a small fraction of the market for music...

Neither SACD nor DVD-A offered non-audiophiles anything that they really cared about... Those formats offered no new convenience or durability... they had higher quality but were also more expensive, which was not appealing since CDs were already overpriced....

MP3s and AAC took over the market because they offered non-audiophiles what they wanted: convenience (iTunes playlists etc..), portability (iPods & other MP3 players), lower prices (able to buy tracks individually for a $1 OR steal them for $0 if you so desired).

The goods new for Audiophiles is that MP3 was just the start of it all... and is low quality due to space limitations and internet speeds... but now that we see more audiophile brands taking an interest in music servers & downloads, we are also seeing high resolution download sites popping up to cater to that Audiophile market...

Give it time and you'll be able to download Stereo or MC recordings in higher resolution than SACD...

[E-Stat]

MP3s and AAC took over the market because ...

I agree completely with your summary.

Give it time and you'll be able to download Stereo or MC recordings in higher resolution than SACD...

My understanding is that virtually all recordings today are captured at higher resolutions than Redbook CD, either SACD or 24/192 PCM. My brother just got fiber delivered to his house in Dallas. He gets 40 MB / sec download speed capability! Such bandwidth would make getting your favorite hi-rez album a quick task.

rw

[Feanor]

No *rational* reason? So, who will fund the replacement of my 600 odd albums with the CD or SACD equivalents? I am loathe to spend another $8k to replace all of them largely for convenience. Nor am I really motivated to spend hundreds of hours of effort to rip, separate, and process all the tracks digitally (although I have done so in small amounts). ...

'Stat, having a sizable vinyl collection is the best possible -- indeed the only good -- reason for maintaining a vinyl set up. (That's why I still have mine, though some day I'd like to get around to ripping them all to computer files.) Let me clarify that I meant "rational" in context of a basis for insisting on the continued superiority of vinyl as a medium.

..
I seriously doubt that vinyl-o-philes are responsible for the relative lackluster support of the hi-rez mediums. I think a far more likely cause is due to the availability of inexpensive "singles" usually packaged in the opposite fidelity medium - low bit rate MP3s found on iTunes, etc.
...

But this is exactly what I do belief. To reiterate, that continued adherence to vinyl by audiophiles has hindered and perhaps killed acceptance of SACD. On the contrary, I consider MP3 downloads to be irrelevant to the SACD situation.

[E-Stat]

Let me clarify that I meant "rational" in context of a basis for insisting on the continued superiority of vinyl as a medium.

I kinda gathered what you meant. Sorry for picking on you. I'm just not a vinyl elitist. Speaking of which, have you seen video as posted today on AA? How about two million records?

But this is exactly what I do believe

I guess we'll agree to disagree here. Kids are waaay too impatient to wait fifty times longer to download a hi-rez SACD cut at ~150 MB vs. 3 MB for a 128 kb MP3. All kidding aside, do you realize the impact this would have on the IT infrastructures of universities across both our countries? They already have to deal with students doing streaming audio and video feeds and all the music downloading that goes on in the low-rez world. The bandwidth for online distribution is just not here yet. Give it a few years, maybe ten for universally available wicked-fast bandwidth.

rw

[Feanor]

....
I guess we'll agree to disagree here. Kids are waaay too impatient to wait fifty times longer to download a hi-rez SACD cut at ~150 MB vs. 3 MB for a 128 kb MP3. All kidding aside, do you realize the impact this would have on the IT infrastructures of universities across both our countries? They already have to deal with students doing streaming audio and video feeds and all the music downloading that goes on in the low-rez world. The bandwidth for online distribution is just not here yet. Give it a few years, maybe ten for universally available wicked-fast bandwidth.

rw

I agree with what you're saying about kids & downloads, in fact it's indisputable. I'm talking about those old, grey-haired audiophiles who continue to buy LPs instead of buying SACDs -- I'm talking about the silver discs.

As for me, I'd be fine with hi-rez downloads, say PCM 24/96. Yes, downloads would take a while, but I'm patient and there are download managers that can handle interruption, etc.

[E-Stat]

I'm talking about those old, grey-haired audiophiles who continue to buy LPs instead of buying SACDs -- I'm talking about the silver discs.

Switching every one of *us* over would hardly put a dent in the overall market.

rw

[Rich-n-Texas]

...For me it is really sad that audiophiles still adhere to vinyl. Now that we have indubitably superior media such as SACD, not only better sound but multi-channel to boot, there is no technical -- or rational -- reason for vinyl. Yet the mindless stubborness of vinylphiles might be consigning that medium to the trash bin.

SACD is dead! Dead dead dead!

The problem I have with SACD is the extremely limited amount of the kind of music I enjoy (it's mostly classical and Orchestral with some pop thrown in), however (that said - having said that ), the few SACD titles I do have are miles above regular old CD's from an SQ perspective.

The problem I have with vinyl is that my old Pioneer TT would be expensive to replace, so that along with the care and maintenance needed to keep the records clean steers me away.

All this IMO.