Well, whaddaya know!

[tube fan]

I agree entirely. Have you ever seen a DBT between something like an Audio Research REF 610T and a NAD integrated?

I went to a DBT comparing high res digital (high res for digital, NOT for analogue, of course) to MP3 digital. Over 90% of the "audiophiles" actually preferred the MP3 digital!!! The difference was NOT subtle. My wife said, BEFORE the units were revealed, that these self styled audiophiles MUST be deaf! Two week later, I was at another blind test that had the same result (90% preferring the MP3 sound). I have been to hundreds (probably thousands) of blind tastings of wines, and extremely few experts could identify their favorite wines. I know one rich member (who buys every 95+ Parker wine), who simply CANNOT even tell when a wine is corked!!! Don't think that the exact same thing does not happen in audio "reviewing". Remember early ss and early digital were, it is widely admitted today, simply HORRIBLE!!! HORRIBLE!!! Yet, the same "experts" who praised digital at the start, tell us that this time we should listen to them. I just came back from the 2012 CAS, and in rooms that had both analogue and digital, the analogue simply DESTROYED the digital. Ditto for ss versus tubes. BTW, analogue (even via several analogue tape decks) and tubes were EVERYWHERE at the show.

[tube fan]

But please answer to all who have asked, how do you conduct your blind listeneing tests?

Again, Again, Again: I have someone change a unit (or not), and I rate vinyl records. The unit that produces the highest scores is the best unit FOR ME. Not hard at all. Mark, these are NOT short term tests. The kind of blind tasting tests I prefer are similar. I rate wines blind when drinking them as I normally do: with food.

[Hyfi]

As some newbies might not be aware, several years ago, Mtry was banned for supporting DBT's here. Heaven knows, you can trash religon, countries and almost anything but call audiophiles reliance on pure subjective impressions into question and you're gone, like yesterdays train.

wotta site ;-)

It was not because he supported DBTs, it was the way he went about it and the way he treated others who did not agree with him and his Band of Merry DBTers.

I was there.

[Hyfi]

A good example of this is Stratos amplifiers. They are repackaged Symphonic Line. The price is very different.

Just curious where you got that from.

Symphinic Line is built in Germany while the Stratos Amps are built in the USA so I don't see how one can be a rebadge of the other.

[E-Stat]

I've explained my blind testing method many times: my wife or a friend changes units (or doesn't change units), and I listen to dozens of vinyl records and rate each record on a 100 point scale.

Thanks. What has confused me about your stories is that you describe a single blind test yet your posts here and elsewhere reference only double blind tests. Your wife most certainly knows which cable is connected. Perhaps you should adjust your constant references from DBTs to SBTs accordingly as there is a big difference. Don't get me wrong - I've done SBTs with my wife as well. I just see so much confusion and misinformation about this topic.

BTW, I never play the same side of a record in succession due to unavoidable groove damage. Perhaps you have multiple copies of the same disc.

BTW, NOTHING I heard at the 2010, 2011, or 2012 CASs produced higher scores than my humble system:

Scores? Surely you understand that audio shows are not the best way to compare anything at a critical level. Much better exists (from Audio Research and numerous other firms) if you're interested.

[E-Stat]

Over 90% of the "audiophiles" actually preferred the MP3 digital!!! The difference was NOT subtle. My wife said, BEFORE the units were revealed, that these self styled audiophiles MUST be deaf!

The best systems I've heard (mostly at Sea Cliff) have never sounded "impressive" - just incredibly natural, three dimensional and with phenomenal resolution. Clearly, many folks like loud.

Yet, the same "experts" who praised digital at the start, tell us that this time we should listen to them.

To whom do you refer? Julian Hirsch? Len Feldman? My mentors certainly did not share that sentiment in the 80s.

[JoeE SP9]

Just curious where you got that from.

Symphinic Line is built in Germany while the Stratos Amps are built in the USA so I don't see how one can be a rebadge of the other.

The Stratos website used to say so. I don't know if it still does. They get the PCB's and main components from Symphonic line and place them in their own case work.

[Feanor]

Thanks. What has confused me about your stories is that you describe a single blind test yet your posts here and elsewhere reference only double blind tests. Your wife most certainly knows which cable is connected. Perhaps you should adjust your constant references from DBTs to SBTs accordingly as there is a big difference. Don't get me wrong - I've done SBTs with my wife as well. I just see so much confusion and misinformation about this topic.
...

I don't believe that full scientific rigour is necessary to have useful blind tests for personal use. Suspicious as I am, I think rejection of single-blinds testing because it isn't rigorous, is often a cop-out by those fearing they'll be shown-up for not hearing what they say they can hear.

Indeed scientific rigour calls for double blind and also a series of trials with multiple subjects, and subject to statistical analysis. But personal testing doesn't need need these things to be meaningful to those involved. Fundamentally, with a few trials of a single-blind test you can usually correctly differentiate the components, that tells you something. Even more helpful, maybe, is if you cannot differentiate the components -- after all, even if differences actually do exist they are obviously not very significant.

...
BTW, I never play the same side of a record in succession due to unavoidable groove damage. Perhaps you have multiple copies of the same disc.
....

I doubt that it is necessary to listen to actual LPs for the tests. By many reports, hi-rez rips capture the full character of vinyl recordings. In any case the playback medium isn't likely to be of major significance in component comparison, (unless the comparison is vinyl vs. digital).

[E-Stat]

I don't believe that full scientific rigour is necessary to have useful blind test.

Nor do I as I have conducted some SBTs myself.

What I think is absolutely necessary is using valid tests that aren't fatally flawed from the outset. They only produce incorrect conclusions. And lots of them!

I doubt that it is necessary to listen to actual LPs for the tests

But that is most certainly NOT what Tube Fan did.

[JohnMichael]

Just curious where you got that from.

Symphinic Line is built in Germany while the Stratos Amps are built in the USA so I don't see how one can be a rebadge of the other.

Why am I talking about the Soulution amplifiers in a review of Odyssey gear? Because I heard about both from solid-state-amp connoisseur Alon Wolf of Magico. I wasn’t a bit surprised when he recommended the Soulution 700s—they cost a fortune and had a helluva reputation for excellence. But I was surprised when he suggested that I also give a listen to a little amp called the Odyssey Khartago. First of all, I’d never heard of Odyssey, though, as it turns out, the company’s been around for a decade, and second…well, I’ll get to that in a moment.

“I’ve been using the Khartago in the factory for years,” said he, “to test loudspeakers. It isn’t a Soulution 700, but it’s…good enough.” Good enough for the Wolfman is good enough for me, thought I, and promptly called Klaus Bunge of Odyssey, who happens to be located a scant two hours away in picturesque Indianapolis, Indiana. A week or two later Klaus, a big bearded bear of a man, drove down to Cincy with a Khartago and a pair of Stratos monoblocks in hand—both hands, actually. (Though I won’t have the space to talk specifically about the Strati, you can take it for granted that everything I say about the Khartago goes double for Odyssey’s monoblocks.)

Bunge has been importing German hi-fi into the United States for better than twenty years. Indeed, throughout the eighties he almost single-handedly put the German electronics company Symphonic Line on the map. In the late nineties, he decided to offer a more “cost-effective” line of amps and preamps in addition to his pricey imports. Somehow he managed to talk the folks at Symphonic Line into supplying him with the same circuits it used in its amps, which Klaus then builds, stuffs, tweaks, sticks in handsomely finished custom-made anodized-aluminum boxes, and sells factory-direct. (All this work is done in the good ol’ U.S. of A.) The Khartago, for instance, has specs that are nearly identical—as they should be, considering they use virtually the same boards—to those of the celebrated Symphonic Line RG-1 Mk IV. Both output 115Wpc into 8 ohms; both have a bandwidth that extends out to 400kHz; both have high damping factors, exceptional slew rates, and oodles of current. The only thing they don’t share is price. The Symphonic Line RG-1 Mk IV is currently $6800; the Odyssey Khartago costs $799.


TAS 195: Odyssey Audio Khartago Stereo Amplifier | AVguide

[Hyfi]

I can speak to the Stratos amp since I have owned one for about 12 years. Good strong bassie amp and a bargain for the $1200 it cost me with the cap upgrade. I know I can send it back for an overhaul for about $500.

But, that said it is no way in the same league as my Counterpoint at 4x the price. It does not have the mids or highs and can be a little congested in comparison.

I guess it would be interesting to hear both Odyssey and Symphonic Line setups side by side with same speakers, wires, CDP and music. I would bet $10 that the SL setup still sounds a tad better and the units are not just rebadged and identical on the inside.

[hifitommy]

tube fan: "What IS fraudulent are the claims of "reviewers" like MF that every new horribly expensive component is WAY, WAY better than anything that came before."

it is quite obvious that you have not heard truly high end equipment. the caliburn and sirius TTs michael gushed about ARE that good. the big wilson speakers as well. audio research and VTL electonics belong in that grouping. please get thee to a proper demo of this level of equipment.

its not to say that just because those items are on demo that they will sound their best but they very likely will sound grossly better than the mid fi items that some seem to think are as good as it gets.

how about an equipment list sir. mine can be found at the asylum.

[E-Stat]

how about an equipment list sir. mine can be found at the asylum.

Look on previous page. He lists at bottom of one of his posts.

I had a friend in the 70s who used Fulton Js. A dealer that I later worked for sold Fultons (and Audio Research) - although he only stocked the FMI 80 bookshelf which is the "midrange" for the J modular.

It's a system I could most easily be happy with, but it is not even close to what you could hear at Sea Cliff.

[RGA]

So the assumption is that paying more is a fraud?

So a B&W Nautilus is not any better than an N805 which is no better than 705 which is no better than a 303?

In 95% of cases - the most expensive speaker from a company is MUCH better than the least expensive speaker in a company line-up and by a dramatic margin. If you can't hear that and you need a double blind test then you should be out of this hobby and doing something like photography - something that doesn't involve ears.

The DBT guys - seriously you CAN'T tell the difference between an SL 1200 with a $50 Audio Technica cart from Technics and a top of the line Clearaudio with their top arm and cart?

REALLY? You need a blind test because Clearaudio is tricking you?

You need a DBT to tell you that TAPE machines at CES were destroying CD?

I kind of get the DBT argument for cables because the prices are frankly crazy and I personally view them as tone controls.

But giving them the benefit of the doubt - because they're tone controls - it is conceivable that the wire could have a big difference in their system and not much at all in another system (possibly the one involved in the DBT).

DB tests in audio all have ridiculous problems - you are welcome to put faith in them but at least acknowledge they're highly problematic. The one speaker(out of a pair) on a spinner that gets rotated - all speakers being driven by the same amp whether it's designed for said high negative feedback amplifiers or not - is crap science but they have famous engineers writing white papers. Corporation science isn't science. AES is filled with people who work at those corporations.

As for reviewer's ears versus non reviewers - reviewer's are audiophiles who write.

[Hyfi]

RGA -

If a company manufactures a $4k amp and a $30k amp, and the cost of the parts are within $1k-$2k, but the $30k amp does not sound 8X better, is that not fraud?

I really don't think so. What it really is, is Capitalism running wild.

Capitalism = Legal, yet Immoral

The real people to blame are not the MFGs but rather the people who actually buy the stuff and keep the prices at an outrageous Price per Quality skewed state.

If people are willing to throw that kind of money around, because they can, than why not take it?

[tube fan]

Look on previous page. He lists at bottom of one of his posts.

I had a friend in the 70s who used Fulton Js. A dealer that I later worked for sold Fultons (and Audio Research) - although he only stocked the FMI 80 bookshelf which is the "midrange" for the J modular.

It's a system I could most easily be happy with, but it is not even close to what you could hear at Sea Cliff.

Well, the Fulton Js sound much more realistic than the FMI 80s do. Flat from 18hz to 40,000hz. I'm sure my Dunlavy SCIVs measure better than the Fultons (no surprise as JA's measurements of the Dunlavy SCIVs still set the standard for loudspeakers). Bob Fulton designed his speakers by ear and Dunlavy designed his by measurements. Still, I listen mostly to the Fulton J speakers, so I guess I am in the "sounds good" camp, and not in the "absolute sound" camp. BTW, Soundlabs are at the top of my list of speakers. Why they don't get more attention stuns me. I'll bet I would prefer the Soundlabs over Sea Cliff.

[tube fan]

Thanks. What has confused me about your stories is that you describe a single blind test yet your posts here and elsewhere reference only double blind tests. Your wife most certainly knows which cable is connected. Perhaps you should adjust your constant references from DBTs to SBTs accordingly as there is a big difference. Don't get me wrong - I've done SBTs with my wife as well. I just see so much confusion and misinformation about this topic.

BTW, I never play the same side of a record in succession due to unavoidable groove damage. Perhaps you have multiple copies of the same disc.


Scores? Surely you understand that audio shows are not the best way to compare anything at a critical level. Much better exists (from Audio Research and numerous other firms) if you're interested.

Well, you are probably correct about the quality at audio shows, but it's hard to hear most gear at stores, unless you travel a lot. As for new, expensive Audio Research hybred units, I consistently favor the older, more "tube-like" sound. For me, the SP8 was Audio Research's best sounding pre. The folks at the Walnut Creek Magnepan store agree with me on this point: instead of getting better or more realistic, many brands, not just Audio Research, go in the opposite direction. Bigger and more complicated, with wonderful parts, all too often does not translate into better sound.

[tube fan]

Thanks. What has confused me about your stories is that you describe a single blind test yet your posts here and elsewhere reference only double blind tests. Your wife most certainly knows which cable is connected. Perhaps you should adjust your constant references from DBTs to SBTs accordingly as there is a big difference. Don't get me wrong - I've done SBTs with my wife as well. I just see so much confusion and misinformation about this topic.

BTW, I never play the same side of a record in succession due to unavoidable groove damage. Perhaps you have multiple copies of the same disc.


Scores? Surely you understand that audio shows are not the best way to compare anything at a critical level. Much better exists (from Audio Research and numerous other firms) if you're interested.

I don't go back and forth between two units often. I listen to and rate dozens of vinyl records on one unit, and then do the same with the other unit.

The person who changes the components does NOT rate them, so it's as blind as it needs to be for those who listen.

[E-Stat]

Well, the Fulton Js sound much more realistic than the FMI 80s do. Flat from 18hz to 40,000hz.

A little hyperbole always works for some.

I'll bet I would prefer the Soundlabs over Sea Cliff.

That is a somewhat mixed comparison. I really like the big Scaenas with the quad depth charge subs, but they do not have single driver coherence. When HP heard my system in Atlanta, his reaction was "these speakers are going to cost you a fortune". What he meant was they can reveal differences between the finest components and that I would need to upgrade other system components. On the other hand, I have no plans to drain my retirement funds to achieve that goal!

What I would really like to hear is a large Sound Lab (or array) driven by the incredible sources, amplification and cabling he has always had access to for the past thirty years. I regret not hearing Ray Kimber's huge array he showed at RMAF for a couple of years.

For me, the SP8 was Audio Research's best sounding pre.

Yet, it has a definite sonic character and has nowhere near the resolution of what is possible today, much less the SP-10 or SP-15. Your preference is your preference. Better still exists.

To keep my comments in perspective, I would certainly make that statement about my amplification stages as well. They are eminently musical and have served me well for well over a decade, but simply not SOTA.

[RGA]

RGA -

If a company manufactures a $4k amp and a $30k amp, and the cost of the parts are within $1k-$2k, but the $30k amp does not sound 8X better, is that not fraud?

What is 8 times better. You could have two amplifiers one at 2k and one at $20k and the 20k could sound pretty much identical except for a slightly better treble response - that SLIGHT difference means the $20k amp is listenable all day every day versus "you want to turn it off in 20 minutes.

Take Pass Labs - they sell two integrated amplifiers for $7150. One is a Class A 30 watt amp - the other is a 150 watt class A/B amplifier - they were compared - but I bet for a lot of music a lot of the time we'd have difficulty telling them apart - depending of course on the speakers.

The DBTs used in some of these speaker tests only have ONE speaker being tested.

The magazine reviews with their measurements measure ONE speaker - not both.

As for amplifier prices well some makers have said their lower powered amplifiers sound "identical" to their bigger powered amplifiers except that their bigger powered amplifiers can drive harder to drive speakers and or to a lot louder levels. So in that sense you're paying $30k for a $4k sounding amplifier. They sound the same - but not with a very tough to drive speaker at high levels they don't.

[Hyfi]

What is 8 times better. You could have two amplifiers one at 2k and one at $20k and the 20k could sound pretty much identical except for a slightly better treble response - that SLIGHT difference means the $20k amp is listenable all day every day versus "you want to turn it off in 20 minutes.

Take Pass Labs - they sell two integrated amplifiers for $7150. One is a Class A 30 watt amp - the other is a 150 watt class A/B amplifier - they were compared - but I bet for a lot of music a lot of the time we'd have difficulty telling them apart - depending of course on the speakers.

The DBTs used in some of these speaker tests only have ONE speaker being tested.

The magazine reviews with their measurements measure ONE speaker - not both.

As for amplifier prices well some makers have said their lower powered amplifiers sound "identical" to their bigger powered amplifiers except that their bigger powered amplifiers can drive harder to drive speakers and or to a lot louder levels. So in that sense you're paying $30k for a $4k sounding amplifier. They sound the same - but not with a very tough to drive speaker at high levels they don't.

Sounds like an excuse to get easier to drive speakers rather than an extra $30k just to drive hard ones.

[E-Stat]

The person who changes the components does NOT rate them, so it's as blind as it needs to be for those who listen.

But NOT a DBT. You do understand the difference? It is also necessarily a long term, not instantaneous comparison. I share your view that long term comparisons are more valid for determining more subtle differences than quick audio cowboy switching as promoted by the DBT camp.

There are some (not me) who disregard the validity of SBTs from the infamous "clever hans" potential.

[hifitommy]

tube fan,

i am surprised that you don't know that the fmi 80 is part and parcel a main part of the jmod setup. the best part it turns out as alone they are excellent. mel schilling had a store in woodland hills and when i mentioned the jmod (he sold them) he suggested that there were much better speaker systems out there for much less. his disdain for the woofer section was obvious. maybe he just didnt like robert fulton.

[E-Stat]

ti am surprised that you don't know that the fmi 80 is part and parcel a main part of the jmod setup.

As I mentioned earlier, it is the midrange. Exactly.

Agreed the J(unior) mod is better, but only because it extends the bandwidth of the small bookshelf at both ends.

[hifitommy]

ralph, it wasnt YOU whom i felt didnt know about the 80 being the mid. it was the tube fan who stated: "Fulton Js sound much more realistic than the FMI 80s do".

did you ever meet mel schilling? he was coldly honest. he may still be running a shop in PA. my friend bought IMF monitor IIIs from him sound unheard before mel came to california.