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  1. #26
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
    I think Magnepan's approach is classier:

    Made in the USA. Sold in China

    rw
    Nope.

    I think Magnepan's approach is CLASSY.

    Odyssey's approach is most definitely not classy.

  2. #27
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
    I think Magnepan's approach is classier:

    Made in the USA. Sold in China

    rw
    And there you have it!
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


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  3. #28
    Sgt. At Arms Worf101's Avatar
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    I take things a little more simply...

    Red Wing Boots are now made in China as well as the U.S.

    Cost:
    U.S. - 240 to 300 depending on model etc..
    Chinese - 120 on average.

    Quality:
    U.S. Boots are over 8 years old and on their 3rd re-sole.
    Chinese - Split apart after working in this Fall's floods.

    Conclusion, not all chinese stuff is crap, not all American made goods are the bee's knee's BUT every Redwing ain't a Redwing.

    Worf

  4. #29
    Audio casualty StevenSurprenant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by recoveryone View Post
    I'm sure in another 20 years the labor cost in china will equal the US and the out sourcing will go to another country with more people than jobs, willing to work for Penny's on the dollar.
    I agree, cheap labor is the bottom line and out sourcing will circle the globe and maybe someday end up back in the U.S.A. when we become impoverished enough or the cost overseas becomes prohibitive due to standard of living increases. It's a cycle.

    Use of automation which reduces that need for human labor is on the rise, so that, in time, labor costs may not be the main issue.

    As for Chinese crap, we used to say the same thing about Japanese products, but look at us now...

    As for the sign displayed by a manufacturer at RMAF - Bad choice on their part. Kind of reminds me of American Politics - Win by accusing the other candidate.
    Last edited by StevenSurprenant; 10-27-2011 at 10:38 AM.

  5. #30
    Forum Regular frahengeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani View Post
    This sign was displayed by a manufacturer at RMAF:





    So what do you think? Does it cross the line?
    As an American Company, it should be about promoting American Craftmanship, Ingenuity, and Quality. Think pro-American, but not degrade or demote others. The sign absolutely promotes hate in my opinion.
    While on the topic, buying American shouldn't be a given, it should be earned through competing in technological prowess, quality, and/or cost. (e.g. If the object could do the task better, and last 3~4 times longer, then I would be willing to pay double). Okay I'm done.
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  6. #31
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    I am kind of mixed on this. First, I respect Klaus for standing up for what he believes. It is so rare that one is passionate about something, and stands strongly with it even if it is not a popular stance. He has obviously seen the business from a side many of us are not privy to, and is not too happy with what he has seen. I've had that same experience with the industry I work in, and it has left a nasty taste in my mouth.

    To say that he is bitter and angry can be misleading. Maybe he is just rebelling against a trend that he see's as hurting the audio industry overall.

    I have been hearing murmurs from friends that have companies that manufacture their products in China, and many of them say they are tired of the expense of constantly watching everything the manufacture does. They say you turn your head for a moment, and next thing you know cheaper parts show up in their products, and they have customer issues. Then there is the occasional factory owner that skips out because they cannot get financing to continue operations. Or if the product they make is valuable to the Chinese, the government wants access to the intellectual property digital codes(Can anyone say Bluray player).

    There is no doubt in my mind that the Chinese manufactures can make a good product consistently. However for American companies this mean you must ALWAYS be watching the manufacture quality, and/or you have to have a strong long term tie which builds the trust. When you do your own manufacturing, you only have to watch what you do.

    A year ago I started looking for made in America products, and found it tough. I didn't care much about the expense, but it seems that we have just given up on made in America, just so we can say we got it for cheap.
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  7. #32
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    I am kind of mixed on this. First, I respect Klaus for standing up for what he believes. It is so rare that one is passionate about something, and stands strongly with it even if it is not a popular stance. He has obviously seen the business from a side many of us are not privy to, and is not too happy with what he has seen. I've had that same experience with the industry I work in, and it has left a nasty taste in my mouth.

    To say that he is bitter and angry can be misleading. Maybe he is just rebelling against a trend that he see's as hurting the audio industry overall.

    I have been hearing murmurs from friends that have companies that manufacture their products in China, and many of them say they are tired of the expense of constantly watching everything the manufacture does. They say you turn your head for a moment, and next thing you know cheaper parts show up in their products, and they have customer issues. Then there is the occasional factory owner that skips out because they cannot get financing to continue operations. Or if the product they make is valuable to the Chinese, the government wants access to the intellectual property digital codes(Can anyone say Bluray player).

    There is no doubt in my mind that the Chinese manufactures can make a good product consistently. However for American companies this mean you must ALWAYS be watching the manufacture quality, and/or you have to have a strong long term tie which builds the trust. When you do your own manufacturing, you only have to watch what you do.

    A year ago I started looking for made in America products, and found it tough. I didn't care much about the expense, but it seems that we have just given up on made in America, just so we can say we got it for cheap.
    I doubt that Klaus would permit such a display without a degree of bitterness -- for which he can be excussed. Not only manufactures but workers too who have lost their jobs are likely to feel this way. Doesn't matter which category you're in, you are likely to feel the erosion of the American Dream.

    Globalization and the relative decline of the USA are inevidable, but people can be excused for feeling that growing disparity between not only the poor but also the middle class, and the very rich, is a factor in their declining well-being. The fact is that real incomes have declined for the majority, (and this trend is expanding upwards to the upper middle class). Whether you're a consumer or a business person hoping to sell to American customers, you are bound to feel some angst these days.

    By the way, I suspect it's easier for larger manufacturers to deal with China because they are better able to deal with the QA, logistic, and other issues, than small manufactures. E.g. Apple doesn't seem to have much trouble over there.

  8. #33
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by feanor View Post
    i doubt that klaus would permit such a display without a degree of bitterness -- for which he can be excussed. Not only manufactures but workers too who have lost their jobs are likely to feel this way. Doesn't matter which category you're in, you are likely to feel the erosion of the american dream.

    Globalization and the relative decline of the usa are inevidable, but people can be excused for feeling that growing disparity between not only the poor but also the middle class, and the very rich, is a factor in their declining well-being. The fact is that real incomes have declined for the majority, (and this trend is expanding upwards to the upper middle class). Whether you're a consumer or a business person hoping to sell to american customers, you are bound to feel some angst these days.

    By the way, i suspect it's easier for larger manufacturers to deal with china because they are better able to deal with the qa, logistic, and other issues, than small manufactures. E.g. Apple doesn't seem to have much trouble over there.
    +1000
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  9. #34
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    Misplaced Blame.....................

    "A year ago I started looking for made in America products, and found it tough. I didn't care much about the expense, but it seems that we have just given up on made in America, just so we can say we got it for cheap."

    Not really true.

    The key here is the need imposed by the stock market to continually grow (US) corporate profits, which then translates into bigger executive bonus payments. US companies must, per the stock market, continually grow their profits geometrically. Apple has done this with the profound gifts of Steve Jobs. Another approach is to make your products super cheap and sell them for a high price. A no-brainer, right?

    Eddie Bauer sold a GoreTex parka for $150 and at season's end they might have had that parka on sale for $100. A former associate of mine told me he bought some of those parkas in China from a street vendor for $20 each. The vendor may have bought those parkas "out the back door" for $10 each, which could be what E-B pays. So if you can buy your merchandise for $10 and sell it for $150 that is not bad, is it?

    It is true that there are real problems with having your products manufactured in China. And if you want to sell in China you must have a Chinese partner. If you have advanced proprietary or secret technology in your product that you are selling in China you may eventually find yourself competing with a new Chinese company that somehow has your technology and is also somehow getting all the orders in China.....

    Another example is how greed had once harmed Ford: The 1997 F150 was cheapened to the point of being dangerous in a crash, and one reason was because the frame metal was reduced to glorified sheetmetal to save money by reducing the energy needed to form the parts. [If you reduce the metal thickness by 1/2 you reduce the amount of energy needed to form the parts by a factor of "8". This is a "thickness cubed" relationship.] The steering column and slow-to-deploy airbags seemed to be additional factors. See if the NTSB still has a crash test picture for the 1997-2003 F150 and if so, note where the crash test dummy is. [Also note that the front of the gas tank is hung off of the cab and its rear is hung off of the box.] Ford once sold about 2X as many F150 as GM sold full-sized 1/2 ton pickups. Now Ford sells about 20% more 1/2 ton pickups than does GM. This was probably why Bill Ford had stepped in to run Ford for a few years in the early 2000's.

    I really don't think you want to blame the American consumer......

  10. #35
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    frahengeo ...... The sign you showed has an error....

    The slash on the circle should go from upper left to lower right....................

  11. #36
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    I was just watching my Dynaudio Tour the Factory DVD and this is something that Wilfred Ehrenholz, the Pres and CEO said as the Narrator asked "So why not move all production to the Middle East, like China?"

    The answer was "You can buy a lot of reasonably good products from China for the money. But, if you want to achieve this ambitiousness, it would be impossible to do it anywhere else"

    Dynaudio was one of the first Danish companies to be ISO9000 Certified. Do you think the jobbers in China are?

  12. #37
    Irish arctikdeth's Avatar
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    I seem to remember a time not long ago, when this was supported with no complaining, whining, or saying, racism, or other words. it's a shame what this country has become, a Giant heap of God complex prudes. Get over yourselves, and start supporting this once great country once more.

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