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  1. #1
    Ajani
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    Taking "Made in America" too far?

    This sign was displayed by a manufacturer at RMAF:



    EDIT: Correct link to blog - Politically Incorrect? | Stereophile.com

    On the Stereophile site the pic is captioned as "Politically Incorrect?"




    Honestly, I think that goes beyond politically incorrect and starts crossing over into the racist/prejudice category. I think the sign would have worked much better with 2 changes:

    1) Instead of just "China" crossed out in the circle, have "Made in China" crossed out.

    2) Delete the last line "0% Chinese CRAP".

    IMO the aim should be to show pride in American made products, rather than to denigrate Chinese production.



    So what do you think? Does it cross the line?
    Last edited by Ajani; 10-16-2011 at 11:51 AM.

  2. #2
    Forum Regular harley .guy07's Avatar
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    True it could have been done better as far as saying made in China instead of China and leaving out the zero Chinese crap off of the sign. I remember a America that had enough pride in their products that they did not have to display a sign like that because they knew their products would show enough quality to not need a sign to say what they were thinking. If we as a country could get back to that way of thinking and concentrate on getting our abilities back up with the rest of the world and start manufacturing products that people would look at and see the quality difference and sound difference we would not need signs. To me signs are a "sign" of insecurity.

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  3. #3
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Actually, I think its horse hockey! Or just plain old B.S.....and I was thinking that before I got the Vincent.
    Look at all the good gear that comes out of China....and the latests word is Classe' Audio is to be made in Zhuhai, China soon....Rotel is already made in China...some of the Krell products are made in China as well as a host of other products made in China. I betcha the person who put that sign up has products made in China as well....so whats the point other than be upset that he has lost some sales...or he cant afford to go to China and have his product made. By the way... who is the manufacturer who is hanging that sign?

    But if you asked me...its all marketing spin.
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  4. #4
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by harley .guy07 View Post
    True it could have been done better as far as saying made in China instead of China and leaving out the zero Chinese crap off of the sign. I remember a America that had enough pride in their products that they did not have to display a sign like that because they knew their products would show enough quality to not need a sign to say what they were thinking. If we as a country could get back to that way of thinking and concentrate on getting our abilities back up with the rest of the world and start manufacturing products that people would look at and see the quality difference and sound difference we would not need signs. To me signs are a "sign" of insecurity.
    Agreed... If Made in the USA still meant high quality and Made in China really meant crap, then there would be no need for any signs... The truth is that manufacturers are finding that they can get the same quality workmanship in China and elsewhere for much cheaper... And clearly consumers are agreeing as they readily buy gear made in China. I think American manufacturers just need to focus on rediscovering a competitive advantage over China... If you can't beat them on price, then aim for quality...

    Though of course, signs can work to the extent of trying to build sales based on national pride... So that persons will rather buy American, even if there is no real quality or cost advantage over buying Chinese made products... But as I said in my initial post care has to be taken not cross the line from national pride to prejudice against others (sadly the line can be very thin)...

  5. #5
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by frenchmon View Post
    Actually, I think its horse hockey! Or just plain old B.S.....and I was thinking that before I got the Vincent.
    Look at all the good gear that comes out of China....and the latests word is Classe' Audio is to be made in Zhuhai, China soon....Rotel is already made in China...some of the Krell products are made in China as well as a host of other products made in China. I betcha the person who put that sign up has products made in China as well....so whats the point other than be upset that he has lost some sales...or he cant afford to go to China and have his product made. By the way... who is the manufacturer who is hanging that sign?

    But if you asked me...its all marketing spin.
    I don't know who the manufacturer is, as the Stereophile article didn't identify them...

    Also I agree that it is really marketing spin: a national pride campaign as I referred to it previously...

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    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    I think those signs in todays economy work only if the consumer has money to burn or if the consumer has determined in his mind he will not buy foreign products and be limited by what is available in the USA. I read a posting over at Audio Asylum where one consumer said he buys Rogue because its American, and its about at his budget of $2000. He said he refuses to buy gear from China and will not spend more than 2K He also knew his choice in audio was limited as well.

    But the point of why China....its because of the greed of the American manufacturer. From the parts to marketing to the finished product....its just all to expensive, so they go to China or other places where for the same parts and a finished product, they pocket more of the profits....who can blame them?
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    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Here is why I don't really believe anything is really made 100% in America anymore. Here in ST. Louis there where two Chrysler automobile plaints. Just like GM, they needed the bail out money to stay afloat. So Americans gave their good hard earned money and bailed out the auto manufacturers. So what does Chrysler do? They closed those two plaints here in St. Louis, putting thosands of people out of work, and moved to Mexico! That was a dirty move....did not even have the fortitude to keep that plaint in the USA. Though Rogue claims they are American made...I betcha they are not 100% American parts.

    We have Herron Audio here in St. Louis...very expensive high end amps and tube preamps and at one point made very good high end speakers. We also have Clayton Audio as well...high end amps as well....I will bet neither is 100% American.
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  8. #8
    Stereo value > car value texlle's Avatar
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    Just because something is assembled in China should not detract from its build quality. If the collection of parts being assembled are manufactured in China, there could be cause for concern. These two concepts seem to run together all too often these days. My Jolida was assembled in China from a majority of components designed and built in MD. After 9 years, my amp has performed flawlessly, as have the rest of my stereo components.

    Chinese manufactured parts are, on the whole, cheaply designed, hewn from cheap materials, easy to mass produce in great numbers, but are only effective enough to look good enough to sell. There's less forethought, no passion that goes into these products.

    Chinese labor on the other hand yields far better results than Chinese manufacturing in terms of quality. If you're assembling a McIntosh amplifier, the individual pieces are made to exacting specifications, thus they should fit together precisely as they were intended to. Just follow the instructions. Any labor force can do this, no matter how much they're paid.

    However, if it's a clock radio sold for $5.99 at the dollar store, the parts are cast or molded from crappy molds where each piece is slightly different from the last, thus assembly will be shoddy. Not to mention the cheaper metals and other raw materials as stated earlier. These factors give rise to the poorer quality products we see from the PRC.
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    Oldest join date recoveryone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frenchmon View Post
    Actually, I think its horse hockey! Or just plain old B.S.....and I was thinking that before I got the Vincent.
    Look at all the good gear that comes out of China....and the latests word is Classe' Audio is to be made in Zhuhai, China soon....Rotel is already made in China...some of the Krell products are made in China as well as a host of other products made in China. I betcha the person who put that sign up has products made in China as well....so whats the point other than be upset that he has lost some sales...or he cant afford to go to China and have his product made. By the way... who is the manufacturer who is hanging that sign?

    But if you asked me...its all marketing spin.
    I think what you are missing in your thought is that most of the major technology inventions are made in America, but due to labor cost and basically the profit bottom line. Most companies out source the build and allow these builders to cut corners with cheaper parts and so on to cut the cost even more.

    I'm sure in another 20 years the labor cost in china will equal the US and the out sourcing will go to another country with more people than jobs, willing to work for Penny's on the dollar. In many Asian countries the air quality is so poor, due that there are no regulation on pollution. All in an effort to gain more companies favor to bring their manufacturing needs, without the cost of having additional cost of building plants that are air quality safe along with worker health issues. So nothing wrong with the Chinese worker, but there life style is far behind what many Americans call standard.
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  10. #10
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani View Post
    I don't know who the manufacturer is, as the Stereophile article didn't identify them...

    Also I agree that it is really marketing spin: a national pride campaign as I referred to it previously...
    Apparently it is Odyssey Audio if you scroll down to the comments section.

  11. #11
    Forum Regular harley .guy07's Avatar
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    I guess I look at it from two perspectives. 1. is that I am an American so I do have a since of pride in American made products if they fit my budget but also I do not exclude products made in other countries if the quality is high like a lot of my system is. 2. I do feel that some of these companies that have their products built in China are exploiting the fact that Chinese workers will work for Penny's on the dollar and put their health at risk in order to make what living they can and still starve while the Company heads that contract these products get to add another Bentley to their private collection because they added so much to their Bottom line by having their products made there. I do not believe that is right and we as Human beings should not give into allowing Companies to treat people of any country like this. I do realize that it is not the Companies themselves that are causing these conditions but rather the contract companies in China that are at fault directly but I am sure that the head companies know how these factories operate and just turn a blind eye to it.

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  12. #12
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA View Post
    Apparently it is Odyssey Audio if you scroll down to the comments section.
    Thanks! That comment was added after my thread (and my post in those comments section), so I didn't see it.

    Odyssey really should be ashamed of itself... Especially considering that their 100% handcrafted in the US products are all just German Designs from Symphonic Line

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    Seems odd that Odyssey would say this.

    First of all, Klaus is German, came over here from Germany to sell German made products and then started selling Assembled In America products.

    Hand Crafted must be referring to "Assembled" because Stratos Amps contain components from Japan as well as other places and are wired internally with Gronenberg cabling, which is made or was made in Germany.

    If Klaus was behind this, I'm sure he has taken some heat for it. There does not seem to be a mention of it over at AudioCircle.

    Now on the other hand, if you can buy a Chineese Tube amp for under $200 delivered, how much Quality are you really getting? Value, yes...quality, No.

    Now on a sad note, most Americans cannot afford to buy items made in America due to the cost and pricing as a result of unions and what it costs to protect them. If that was not true, WalMart would no longer be in business here in the US.

  14. #14
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    Seems odd that Odyssey would say this.

    First of all, Klaus is German, came over here from Germany to sell German made products and then started selling Assembled In America products.

    Hand Crafted must be referring to "Assembled" because Stratos Amps contain components from Japan as well as other places and are wired internally with Gronenberg cabling, which is made or was made in Germany.

    If Klaus was behind this, I'm sure he has taken some heat for it. There does not seem to be a mention of it over at AudioCircle.
    This is why I find the idea of such a sign coming from Odyssey to be so puzzling... They are not a 100% (or even close to it) American company...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani View Post
    This is why I find the idea of such a sign coming from Odyssey to be so puzzling... They are not a 100% (or even close to it) American company...
    Yeah, does not make sense. And don't you think we would be able to quantify this easily if it were true?

    But, it is true. I googled the sign and it pointed back to AudioCircle indeed.

    Here is Klaus's explanation
    Best Value Complete System Show Award by Stereomojo - RMAF-2010


    I am now sure he is saying that he uses no Chinese parts in his American Assembled components. Probably being a Blockheaded German, the sign does not read the same in English as it might have in German.

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    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Always those damn Germans! Racist bunch they are......
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  17. #17
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    Yeah, does not make sense. And don't you think we would be able to quantify this easily if it were true?

    But, it is true. I googled the sign and it pointed back to AudioCircle indeed.

    Here is Klaus's explanation
    Best Value Complete System Show Award by Stereomojo - RMAF-2010


    I am now sure he is saying that he uses no Chinese parts in his American Assembled components. Probably being a Blockheaded German, the sign does not read the same in English as it might have in German.
    Based on his explanation I don't think it's a matter that the sign doesn't translate well from German. He could care less about whether it is offensive to some people... Also, I can't say his explanation makes it any better to me. He is clearly anti-China.

    The question is just whether persons agree with his reasons for such a prejudiced stance... I certainly understand his points, but I still think his sign and comments go too far...

  18. #18
    Stereo value > car value texlle's Avatar
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    He's definitely catering to a select audience. I'm a little thrown that an audio company figurehead would take such a vocally blasphemous (and profane) stance but then again I guess he prefers that potential customers come into contact with as minute a trace of mercury as possible among the other obvious reasons stated in Klaus's linked post. I can't say I disagree with him, but his approach is a bit radical.
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  19. #19
    Oldest join date recoveryone's Avatar
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    His stance has no real merit and is unnecessary at best, We Americans are our own worst enemy. We have have the mindset that labor intense work is beneath us, We all deserve to be driving 50K cars and live in 2-3k sq foot homes. We look down upon other countries and ask how come they don't live like us its 2011. We quickly forget our own struggles as a nation and how we lived not more than 50 years ago, let alone the pre-industrial age. Today is anti China, in years past it was Anti Japan. Who's next Mexico, Brazil, both countries are prime places to setup sweat shop and produce cheap labor to build American products or products we consume at alarming rates.
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  20. #20
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by recoveryone View Post
    I think what you are missing in your thought is that most of the major technology inventions are made in America, but due to labor cost and basically the profit bottom line. Most companies out source the build and allow these builders to cut corners with cheaper parts and so on to cut the cost even more.

    I'm sure in another 20 years the labor cost in china will equal the US and the out sourcing will go to another country with more people than jobs, willing to work for Penny's on the dollar. In many Asian countries the air quality is so poor, due that there are no regulation on pollution. All in an effort to gain more companies favor to bring their manufacturing needs, without the cost of having additional cost of building plants that are air quality safe along with worker health issues. So nothing wrong with the Chinese worker, but there life style is far behind what many Americans call standard.

    Some of these company's who out source have their own personnel looking and making sure the Chinese are building and using products that are quality and or picked by the Parent company doing the outsource. I know Marantz has their own quality control in China as well as Vincent Audio. I even read a report from electronics manufacturer Shengya stating that Vincent requires expensive quality parts in their electronics.

    Oh and by the way...I own a German owned and designed preamp called Vincent, and I have gone over that thing with a fine tooth comb and I can say its not anything that is cheaply made...It says ...assembled in China on the back but the Parent company is in Germany. Its really a nice piece and reproduces very good sound as well. I had reserves about a purchase of Chinese products before but realized I had been using a Marantz home theater and Rotel gear for years....and both while having their parent company in other countries, where both assembled in China...so it really was a no brainer. China manufactures some outstanding stuff.
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  21. #21
    Ajani
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    Here's my thoughts on the issue of quality control in China:

    I don't doubt that many Chinese manufacturers specialize in cutting corners and using knock off parts... HOWEVER, the idea that ALL or even MOST do is just over the top...

    If all these HiFi brands being built in China are subject to cost cutting and inferior parts then one or both of the following would occur:

    1) The brands would lose market share because their products would sound inferior to non-Chinese produced gear. Clearly that is not the case as more and more products are moving production to China and getting rave reviews from magazines and end users...

    2) The brands would suffer from massive increases in warranty claims as counterfeit "Chinese Crap" would cause their products to fall apart quickly. This would lead to more erosion of market share + lots more expense involved in servicing sub-quality product. Those service costs would likely be more than the cost of building the gear in the US in the first place...

    Clearly since the load of HiFi brands that have moved production to China are not are not shutting down in droves, then the claims of substandard Chinese parts and labour are vastly exaggerated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani View Post
    Here's my thoughts on the issue of quality control in China:

    I don't doubt that many Chinese manufacturers specialize in cutting corners and using knock off parts... HOWEVER, the idea that ALL or even MOST do is just over the top...

    If all these HiFi brands being built in China are subject to cost cutting and inferior parts then one or both of the following would occur:

    1) The brands would lose market share because their products would sound inferior to non-Chinese produced gear. Clearly that is not the case as more and more products are moving production to China and getting rave reviews from magazines and end users...

    2) The brands would suffer from massive increases in warranty claims as counterfeit "Chinese Crap" would cause their products to fall apart quickly. This would lead to more erosion of market share + lots more expense involved in servicing sub-quality product. Those service costs would likely be more than the cost of building the gear in the US in the first place...

    Clearly since the load of HiFi brands that have moved production to China are not are not shutting down in droves, then the claims of substandard Chinese parts and labour are vastly exaggerated.
    Possibly Audio or Video gear may be the exception of products in this discussion but on a whole, almost every other item you purchase that is Made in China is out and out junk that falls apart quickly or does not perform as advertised. Most people, myself excluded would rather be quick in a purchase and keep buying the same junk because it is inexpensive, than do a little research and maybe spend a little extra up front so they don't have to replace it in a short time.

    Unfortunately, there are still times when all you can buy when looking at some items are those made in China.

    Refer to my earlier statement about Unions. If the high cost of manufacturing in America did not exist the way it does now, Americans would actually be able to afford to purchase American Made Goods.

    Case in point:
    I used to build Metal Stamping Dies for the Auto Industry. As a Journeyman Toolmaker, I was being paid around $15/hour with mediocre benefits. The dies would then be shipped to one of the Auto MFG plants where a Union Employee, making $25plus/hr with lots of benefits, could sit around with his feet up watching the press stamp out part after part with minimal user involvement but for oiling the tool or changing the roll of steel on the feeder and once in a while sharpen it. These bums would then go on strike because they did not get paid enough or get enough bennies. And you wonder why you can't afford American Made Goods as an American.

    But, America is now a Consumer Nation and not a Manufacturing Nation. Blame Unions. Blame the government for starting NAFTA and all the other friggin Loopholes that Capitalists use to get more money in their greedy little pockets instead of just making a decent living while employing their fellow Americans.

    I have a new definition for Capitalism - Legal but Immoral.

  23. #23
    You play. I listen. Enochrome's Avatar
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    He will lose business. No one likes to buy from a hater.

  24. #24
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani View Post
    Based on his explanation I don't think it's a matter that the sign doesn't translate well from German. He could care less about whether it is offensive to some people... Also, I can't say his explanation makes it any better to me. He is clearly anti-China.

    The question is just whether persons agree with his reasons for such a prejudiced stance... I certainly understand his points, but I still think his sign and comments go too far...
    After reading his reply, I am convinced he is angry for obvious reasons....and I am not speaking to his humanitarian issue he wrote in his reasons......here is what I believe his motive is ..

    there are companies, esp. their owners, who rig this system big time for their own personal greed. Much easier to bring in some gear then to actually make it.
    This greed ultimately only helps them and the corrupt Chinese government. Obviously there are a lot of people who'll buy that stuff without thinking about any consequences.
    Then he makes mention its ok for Walmart, but not for our hobby.

    Fair enough, Walmart mentalities are the norm these days, but at least when this issue is coupled with our beloved hobby (not living essentials), it should be some serious food for thought.
    I think thats BS....why give the ok for living? The same humanitarian and greed is still happening....that proves he is angry about something else .. heres the real problem with him...

    Yes, we have to work. A lot. Then again, we are not rich, but comfortable, and can be proud of what we do. Looking in the mirror without any consciousness issues is a wonderful thing.
    He seems to be angry because others out sell him and get rich, and he cant. Now some of what he says is true...but you cant paint with such a big brush. Every one in China is not a crook. I know Marnatz, Vincent and Rotel are not crooks and have very repectable products.

    Klaus....you cant be mad at the audio industry for greed and humanitatian reasons and not companies like Walmart who do the same thing.....and you cant save the world....move to China!
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  25. #25
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani View Post
    So what do you think? Does it cross the line?
    I think Magnepan's approach is classier:

    Made in the USA. Sold in China

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