System change

[Bernd]

Bernd, a very handsome set up, and no doubt a delightful accompaniment to your office work -- would I could have a nice system in my office cubical.

For certain those Shanling tube components are amongst the most beautiful to the eye that are made today.

I'm underpriviledged in that I have never heard a good, full-range, SET-driven system. I would like to in order to understand what the fuss is about. I have designed a number of speaker systems, (though as yet I've built only one). Here is an example: note the fairly complex, 4th order crossover -- and this is only a two-way design. A part from any negative affect on the music, these complex designs become expensive, especially when implemented with top-quality parts. Parts alone for these speakers would be 2-3 times the cost of The Horn.

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the kind words and the link. Very interesting. And you are so right that it's the crossover that can kill the music if not done well. I think it's part of the reason the Peaks sounds so good. Only the best possible parts are used and of course The Horn has no crossover.
As for SET. You should really try and hear one. My guess would be that with your listening preference SET and horns would be fantastic in a sort of, set the music free, way.
I used to have a Cary 300 SEI driving some Zingali Overture 3. A most wonderful sound. I still miss that set up now and then. But upgraditis did get the better of me then. Now I am almost cured.
Have a great week.

Peace

[O'Shag]

During normal listening, I use 0.2 watts per channel, to have decent sound. That with my 87 db/m power hungry thiels...

3 watts of pure class A is enough for efficient speakers.


Keep them spinning,
Bert.

I'm sorry, but I find that hard to believe Basite. You must be listening at whisper quiet levels if you are just using 0.2 of a watt per channel. Your speaker specs are; 87db at 1watt/1mtr, and mfrs generally tend to overstate efficiency. Perhaps you should check your power metres. I can assure you that you are using more than 0.2 of a watt for an 87db speaker at reasonable listening levels. My speakers are much more efficient than yours, and require considerably more amplifier power than you suggest. For 3watts to be sufficient power for a speaker, that speaker would have to be VERY efficient, such as the fostex/lowther type driver Bernd has in his office system, on the order of 95db @8ohms or more. Even though 3 watts will run a speaker system of average efficiency, say 90db @4ohms, much more power will be required to accurately reproduce a recording with wide dynamic range without distortion or colouration.

[bobsticks]

Whattup Shaggy,

Lemme go on record as saying that I'm very much looking forward to your system pics. While trolling I caught your little "my speaks are on the left..." dealio and now I'm intrigued.

On topic, I swear to god I'm thinking about ordering one of these Fostex systems...except that I've run out of rooms. Great stuff Bernd.

Peace

[Bernd]

Whattup Shaggy,

Lemme go on record as saying that I'm very much looking forward to your system pics. While trolling I caught your little "my speaks are on the left..." dealio and now I'm intrigued.

On topic, I swear to god I'm thinking about ordering one of these Fostex systems...except that I've run out of rooms. Great stuff Bernd.

Peace

Thanks bobs., just go for it. And I would also love to see shaggys system pics.
But back on course and me being me I had to mess around a wee bit with the set up. I moved the Horns slightly and it improved the bass response noticeable. I then went on a tube hunt. Not much info on the stock chinese tubes, but a dutch friend of mine is some sort of a tube wizzard and he helped me get these.
I replaced the chinese 6N3 with NOS GE 5670
and the chinese 6P1 with NOS Original 60s Svetlana 6P1P
From the moment I switched the little beastie on the transformation was indeed, the so often used term day and night springs to mind, very noticeable. Detail, tone, timbre and dynamics had all improved greatly. It just shows how poor those chinese copied tubes are. This little set up has to be one of the best bargains around, and I reckon if you don't need very deep bass and play within the systems capabilities it will make you smile disc after disc. And that is worth a lot in my book.
For info purpose. The CD drive is a Philips sorced one and plays great. Not one rejected disc as of yet.

Peace

[Feanor]

Whattup Shaggy,
...
On topic, I swear to god I'm thinking about ordering one of these Fostex systems...except that I've run out of rooms. Great stuff Bernd.

Peace

BS, I'm giving serious consideration to building a Fostex system. I would need to keep the cost under $500 but that's possible with the an FF165K driver and BK-16 cabinet kit, both of which and be ordered from Madison. The good news is not crossover to build or components to buy.

By the way, I'm a fan of Scotish nationalism, my ancestory being 1/2 Scotish. Long live devolution! Independance? Well, we'll see.

[Bernd]

BS, I'm giving serious consideration to building a Fostex system. I would need to keep the cost under $500 but that's possible with the an FF165K driver and BK-16 cabinet kit, both of which and be ordered from Madison. The good news is not crossover to build or components to buy.

By the way, I'm a fan of Scotish nationalism, my ancestory being 1/2 Scotish. Long live devolution! Independance? Well, we'll see.

Maybe something like these proper speakers decorated in tartan.....http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hu...13/131598.html

[basite]

I'm sorry, but I find that hard to believe Basite. You must be listening at whisper quiet levels if you are just using 0.2 of a watt per channel. Your speaker specs are; 87db at 1watt/1mtr, and mfrs generally tend to overstate efficiency. Perhaps you should check your power metres. I can assure you that you are using more than 0.2 of a watt for an 87db speaker at reasonable listening levels. My speakers are much more efficient than yours, and require considerably more amplifier power than you suggest. For 3watts to be sufficient power for a speaker, that speaker would have to be VERY efficient, such as the fostex/lowther type driver Bernd has in his office system, on the order of 95db @8ohms or more. Even though 3 watts will run a speaker system of average efficiency, say 90db @4ohms, much more power will be required to accurately reproduce a recording with wide dynamic range without distortion or colouration.

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloud...20/index7.html

yes sometimes they overstate their efficiency, exept for with thiel, where they rather understate it...
and yes, I listen at 0.2 watts most of the times, not that I don't go louder (especially during the day, when a little louder can be pleasant (say 1 to 4 watts or so...)). But during the evening and at night (when I listen the most), the amp often doesn't put out more than 0.2 watts averaged. It's 'loud' enough for me...

and Bernd's running +- 100db/w/m horns, even with a 3 watt amp, it will go loud enough for in an office system. Considering he does not really listen to heavy electronical music (with lots of deep, demanding bass), or classical, with extreme dynamic range, and also demanding bass, I think it's pretty safe to say he can absolutely enjoy music with his system without it sounding disorted.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Mr Peabody]

Bernd, when I was checking out links on the MC30 there were more than one article that linked Shanling and Music Hall together on this project. Maybe MH uses Phillips transports. Do you know what the relationship is? One article plainly says it's the CD playback. Reading about it is how I realized the unit contained a CD and tuner.

You have definitely sparked some interest in your set up though. I don't have any place to put them but I'd love to have a pair of those speakers to play with as well. It would be cool to get a little SET. How much power can those speakers handle?

[O'Shag]

Thanks Bobsticks and Bernd, should have pictures hopefully by mid-week. My sons got the digital camera so he's coming over to take em and transfer to the computer.

Basite, I understand what your saying. I have heard many high efficiency systems, some of which Ive liked enormously. for example, how about AERs with Lowther type drivers. These are over 100db efficient, and while not perfect, have some magic for certain types of listening. Or how about Tannoy GRF/Reds, again close or over a 100db efficiency. Or Altec Voice of the Theaters, Altec Valencia 846a? Or JBL 4350, 4343, Hartfields? How about Jensen Imperials. I;ve heard all of these and more high-efficiency systems many times for extended listening sessions. I've heard them with flea-watt power amps, and with more powerful amps such as McIntosh 275s, 225s, Marantz 9s, Marantz 8Bs, Audio Research several models etc etc. You may take this for what its worth, but in my own and other listeners opinion, the higher powered amps invariably sounded better than the SET flea-watt amps - even though the high-efficiency speakers are easily driven by the 3 watt amp. If you consult JBL's technical staff - among the best in the world - they will always recommend higher power amps for their high-efficiency speakers.

No offence mate - but my original observation still stands regarding lower efficiency speakers driven by flea-watt power. My friend just picked up a pair of Revel Ultima Salons with an average efficiency of 86 or 87db. He uses very high-power McIntosh amps. When the bass hits the needle jumps all the way to 500 watts! Now that is what you call sucking up power.

[jrhymeammo]

Sometimes I think it's crazy not to play with Fostex based speakers. There are way too many of them for under $1000 new and used. There was one I was extremely interested before I got my Tyler. There used a ton on Agon, so I never cared to bookmark it. Now, i kida wish I had....

Hey Bernd, I'm kinda suprised you didnt go SET. I'm gonna join you on HE setup sooner or later will need your advise when it's time.

Have fun B.

JRA

[JohnMichael]

Sometimes I think it's crazy not to play with Fostex based speakers. There are way too many of them for under $1000 new and used. There was one I was extremely interested before I got my Tyler. There used a ton on Agon, so I never cared to bookmark it. Now, i kida wish I had....

Hey Bernd, I'm kinda suprised you didnt go SET. I'm gonna join you on HE setup sooner or later will need your advise when it's time.

Have fun B.

JRA

Single driver speakers are catching my interest. Of course I wonder if my satisfaction with my current speakers is because the crossover frequency is 3 khz. No crossover in the critical midrange.

[basite]

No offence mate - but my original observation still stands regarding lower efficiency speakers driven by flea-watt power. My friend just picked up a pair of Revel Ultima Salons with an average efficiency of 86 or 87db. He uses very high-power McIntosh amps. When the bass hits the needle jumps all the way to 500 watts! Now that is what you call sucking up power.

Of course I do have enough watts available

but with music like Miles Davis, or John coltrane, or grant green, there is no heavy bass, so the needle doesn't jump that much

of course, when you play a piece of classical music (say, stravinsky's the firebird, or Shostakovich's 4th or 13th or so), I listen slightly 'louder', because the dynamic range is huge, so quiet parts will become unheard when you play to quiet overall...

this results in very high power peaks though, in the firebird for example, in 'I. bild' (track 5), the needle jumps from somewhere around 1 watt to 100 watts, or even more (200 watts is the highest indicated number on the meters here...)...

more power is good to have, if my room would be enlarged, I would probably be drooling over a 400 wat Mc amp already, but at the moment the '100' mcwatts do very well


Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Bernd]

Sometimes I think it's crazy not to play with Fostex based speakers. There are way too many of them for under $1000 new and used. There was one I was extremely interested before I got my Tyler. There used a ton on Agon, so I never cared to bookmark it. Now, i kida wish I had....

Hey Bernd, I'm kinda suprised you didnt go SET. I'm gonna join you on HE setup sooner or later will need your advise when it's time.

Have fun B.

JRA

Hi Hiro,

The MC30 is single ended. Here is what ya get.....

Philips VAM-12 pick-up mechanism coupled with CD-7II servo system for low jitter tracking.
Classic tube amplification presented in stylish aesthetics.
D/A conversion is accomplished by Burr-Brown PCM1738 DAC chip.
High-quality FM/AM tunmg system.
2x6N3 replaced with GE5670
2x6P1 single-ended tube output stage. The 6P1P I used to replace these is just like a 9 pin EL90. A really nice sounding Tube.

Peace

[jrhymeammo]

I see that now.

I bet you dont even miss anything above 18khz and bass below 70hz.

All you need now is this http://strattontechnologies.co.uk/pdf/ds_micro40.pdf

to complete your system. Well you should at least get this for your TTs.

Peace out and enjoy

[Bernd]

I see that now.

I bet you dont even miss anything above 18khz and bass below 70hz.

All you need now is this http://strattontechnologies.co.uk/pdf/ds_micro40.pdf

to complete your system. Well you should at least get this for your TTs.

Peace out and enjoy

Empty your mailbox........................

[O'Shag]

Hi Jrhyme,
with regard to the url you posted; I've seen the Halcyonics device come up recently. Do you have any experience with this platform, and how much do they cost? Have you ever heard of Minus K? Their platforms are used extensively by government agencies, but they are bloomin' expensive. Funny enough though, I read a paper recently, by a research foundation at a well-known university. Given the cost constrants of their project, they set out to find out the best solution to vibraion isolation for a low price. You would be very surprised at what they found out from their research and what they ended up using. Their research, I believe, utilizes electron microscopes.

[O'Shag]

Thats right Bert - I forgot you have 100 McIntosh watts. That serves nicely! I like your choice of music.

[basite]

Thats right Bert - I forgot you have 100 McIntosh watts. That serves nicely! I like your choice of music.

thank you

a 100 mcintosh watts indeed serves the Thiels nicely, never had problems, it never loses control over the speaker, never sounds harsh or thin, it's exellent...


Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[bobsticks]

Spank me twice and call me bobsticks!!! ---jrhymeammo

None of y'all make the short list for spankings so get that outcha head right now freakboy.

Bernd, when I was checking out links on the MC30 there were more than one article that linked Shanling and Music Hall together on this project. Maybe MH uses Phillips transports. Do you know what the relationship is? One article plainly says it's the CD playback. Reading about it is how I realized the unit contained a CD and tuner--Mr. Peabody

Don't take this as gospel but I think that Music Hall is a subsidiary of Shanling. The tale that I heard that MH was devised to attract consumers who might otherwise be prejudiced against Chinese made products. I've never spent anytime researching this, so y'know take with a grain of whatever.

[Mr Peabody]

Check this out: http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=MHSHMC30

I know a dealer who carries both MH and Shanling, I'll email them to see what the deal is. It's not really important and both companies have a decent rep, I'd just like to see what the tie in is.

I personally thought MH was American and owned by Mr. Hall.

[Mr Peabody]

I was told Music Hall is the importer for Shanling. So I believe that MH does not have anything to do with the building or internal parts of the MC30. The response I received didn't elaborate so I assume there is no more to it than that.

[Brett A]

I was told Music Hall is the importer for Shanling. So I believe that MH does not have anything to do with the building or internal parts of the MC30. The response I received didn't elaborate so I assume there is no more to it than that.

I own a Shanling piece and auditioned MH along the way. What I understand is that Roy Hall (of Music Hall) essentially contracts Shanling to build his pieces.