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  1. #76
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    Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    "The old music" means what? Recordings from the fifties, sixties? Some recordings from this era are good, some not. Some current recordings are good, some not. But IMO, its pure folklore that the old recordings, in general, are better than the new. Furthmore the best more recordings are outstanding and beat the best of the old recordings -- I'm talking not only SACDs but CDs too. (I am speaking of classical music.)
    Well said. In jazz, there was a "romance" and "color" with the old Blue Note (label) recordings and they do have a "live" sound to them. Also, there is that old Contemporary (label) classic of Sonny Rollins "Way Out West" that sounded awesome back then and, interestingly enough, has been made even better through recent remastering on CD.

    In jazz (IMHO) the folks in the recording studio were artists in their own right in the 50's and 60's. I think today they are forced to pander to those who pay the bills and recordings suffer.

    I'll take modern classical over 1960's classical 4 times out of 5.

    I would agree with you that it's best not to generalize (even though I just did! oops!) about what's better. I don't, however, have a problem generalizing about what I personally prefer.

  2. #77
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    It so happens ...

    Quote Originally Posted by musicoverall
    Well said. In jazz, there was a "romance" and "color" with the old Blue Note (label) recordings and they do have a "live" sound to them. Also, there is that old Contemporary (label) classic of Sonny Rollins "Way Out West" that sounded awesome back then and, interestingly enough, has been made even better through recent remastering on CD.

    ....
    I very recently purchased the Sonny Rollins remaster you refer to and it is excellent. I don't have the LP for comparison, though.

  3. #78
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Well i think that i was too soft in my explenation, since i am trying to be nice ;-)

    In order to JUDGE a format you need to first establish a point of reference. A reference is what other equipment is measured by! Unfortunatly their are those who can't hear a difference between a Rat Shack speaker cable and a Magnan Flatline. My personal reference Analog setup is the Forsell Air Reference with FlyWheel and the Tiger Eye Platinum catridge using the Manley Phono Reference Pre-Amp. For digital, it would be the full stacked DCS conditioner, processor, transport and upsampler.

    Now we take a scene of music and record it in analog and one in digital and press it on both medium. That allows us to hear what the formats and processing equipment does. Of course we need a reference speaker, one that is neutral and has either one membrane or seperate membranes of the same material and drivers. This gives us Acoustats, SoundLabs, Apogee and Perigee to my knowledge. First choice would be Acoustats (non-curved), second Soundlab (curved multi driver array), third Perigee and Apogee. From a Frequency and Dynamic point of view it would be Perigee, Apogee, Soundlab and Acoustat. Take your pic they are all wonderfull!

    Not to forget the electronics, we have a problem. Some of the best measuring amps sound like ****! Take the Haflers for instance, they were one of the view in the beginning who only cared about power and cloe to no distortion. How did they sound? Like ****!
    I guess on electronics we would have to match it to the speakers, the Soundlabs need a amp that doesnt bother with huge impedance swings. The Apogees love current, but are ultra linear in their impedance responce. The Acoustats are like the Soundlabs and need a amp that can handle the swings. The Perigee is the most dynamic, most efficent speaker with the most vast frequency responce. With sensitivities over 100db we can use wonderfull tube amp.

    So take your pic, and then we listen. Wow, you hear something different then me? Can't be! I am always right and you know it°

    Bottom line, choose whichever format you like. None of us have the pleasure of owning the best this world has to offer. Some of us are close speaker wise and a long way of electronics and room wise. None of us can judge these formats, none of us have the perfect combination and the unlimited funds. But what we do have is emotions, and BOTH formats can do a wonderull job getting them going.

    -Flo
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    Now we take a scene of music and record it in analog and one in digital and press it on both medium. That allows us to hear what the formats and processing equipment does.


    But what we do have is emotions, and BOTH formats can do a wonderull job getting them going.

    -Flo

    Flo reaches the right conclusion. Flo's hypothetical does and exellent job exposing why of a comparison of vinyl and digital is ultimately frivolous, but not for the ultimate reason he outlines.

    Assume you have the hypothetical reference system, everything is in place as Flo describes. The one part of the process he overlooked is the one part of the process that will prevent a true analoug vs. digital evaluation from ever occuring: the mastering process.
    Assuming that your goal is to evaluate the ability of the format is to faithfully render the sound event, the mastering process will alway interfere with that. The mastering process is different for digital and analoug. Additionally, it involves discretionary decisions and aesthetic choices by the masterer (is that a word?).

  5. #80
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    Don't bother, Big Guy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    I very recently purchased the Sonny Rollins remaster you refer to and it is excellent. I don't have the LP for comparison, though.
    The LP is excellent and has been lauded by audiophiles since it was first on the market (or since there were audiophiles - whichever came second). The CD remaster takes the outstanding original to another level. Shell out $50 for a clean copy of the vinyl only if you want a fun comparison. I was an Analog First kind of guy and that CD really turned my head around. I used to blame the format and called it such things as "flawed". I still prefer the vinyl in some cases but the plain truth is that it is as people have been saying for years... it's not the format, it's the recording/mastering.

  6. #81
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
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    Wow.

    1 post = 4 pages & 80 responses

    Good troll.



    To the respondents: Nice job! No flame suits required, which is amazing.

    What happened to the old AR.com

  7. #82
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspeed
    Wow.

    1 post = 4 pages & 80 responses

    Good troll.



    To the respondents: Nice job! No flame suits required, which is amazing.

    What happened to the old AR.com
    They've been whipped into shape, or banned.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  8. #83
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    No, its still the same. I made a perfectly normal comment and got called a piece of ****. Its still the same.

    -Flo
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  9. #84
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musicoverall
    The LP is excellent and has been lauded by audiophiles since it was first on the market (or since there were audiophiles - whichever came second). The CD remaster takes the outstanding original to another level. Shell out $50 for a clean copy of the vinyl only if you want a fun comparison. I was an Analog First kind of guy and that CD really turned my head around. I used to blame the format and called it such things as "flawed". I still prefer the vinyl in some cases but the plain truth is that it is as people have been saying for years... it's not the format, it's the recording/mastering.
    Excellent summation!

    I would add that the Rudy Van Gelder remastered CDs that I've heard on Blue Note (mostly Freddie Hubbard albums) also sound very clean and smooth. I've also read complaints that other RVG remasters lopped off too much of the highs and tinkered with the L/R balances, but the examples I've heard point to the improvement that's possible with more careful repurposing of the master source. Earlier Blue Note CDs in my collection sounded harsh compared to the DMM pressings that Blue Note was issuing at the same time. (And DMM is yet another subject altogether, because LPs remastered using the DMM process sound notably different than other versions mastered using the normal lacquer cutting method)

    Anytime these format discussions pop up, I just shake my head because it's all too easy to pull examples out of my own collection that support both arguments. If I can easily identify cases where a vinyl version sounds better than the CD, or where the CD sounds better than the LP, then obviously factors other than the format itself are at work. And the only way to definitively infer the superiority of one format over another is to compare to the master source. Since most of us on this board do not have access to original studio masters (or even heard a live board feed before), the vinyl vs. CD arguments IMO are absurd wastes of bandwidth.
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  10. #85
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    Yes-good Troll and a decent debate.

    Just like to add

    Flo made a goint point, however in the real world we (hopefuly) taylor our systems to our likes and are governed by our budget constraints. Musical enjoyment doesn't depent on the medium.

    I prefer Vinyl over Digital. That does not make it the universal truth.If a digital set up speaks to you and moves you and first and foremost brings you enjoyment and does what you were looking for, then that is the right one for you.
    However once you experienced what moves you it would be foolish to follow what somebody else percieves as true. I would say that it is benefical to try and listen to a truly great set-up from the opposite site of what you have to give you some idea what is possible. I was more than a little impressed recently by a great CDP and D/A set up.

    But the physical and emotional involvment that Vinyl has, lacks in CD. Firstly I enjoy handling the 12 inch size (who doesn't), the artwork and readability of the lyrics. Also Vinyl does not come in a crappy plastic case. But one of the most important aspects, to me, for sticking with Vinyl is this. Consider the importance of Track running order. So often the great tracks are found at the end of side 1 and the beginning of side 2. I welcome a short break by having to get up and turn the record over. Take Pink Floyd's-The Wall. End of side 1 is "Mother "an emotional heavy song that realy demands a little reflection. Same with DSOM. Or Lou Reeds Transformer, Walk on the Wild Side again demands that break to fully appreciate the quality of the song. This point was ilustrated really well by Tom Petty's-Full Moon Fever. After track 5 (end of side 1 on vinyl), Tom makes a spoken word anouncement "CD listeners there will be a short break while those who listen on Vinyl will have to turn the Record over." Then comes a little silence and then another word from Tom."Here is Side 2". And it really works to recapture that bit of magic, CD has taken away and gives you that pause to digest.

    These are some of the things I get from Vinyl and miss from CD. But I suppose on a very long piece, it works better on CD due to the physical limitations of how much you can put on one Side of Vinyl. So I guess for Classical (also I know very little of this genre) this works in CD's favour.


    I feel that sometimes these exchanges turn into a competition of, mine is better than yours or I have more knowledge or money, etc then you. Bull. The intented transfer of knowledge dies in those circumstances.

    So enjoy what you like and be proud of what each of us have achieved on their quest.

    Peace

    Bernd
    Last edited by Bernd; 03-02-2006 at 04:41 AM.
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  11. #86
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    Define "waste of bandwidth"

    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    Excellent summation!

    I would add that the Rudy Van Gelder remastered CDs that I've heard on Blue Note (mostly Freddie Hubbard albums) also sound very clean and smooth. I've also read complaints that other RVG remasters lopped off too much of the highs and tinkered with the L/R balances, but the examples I've heard point to the improvement that's possible with more careful repurposing of the master source. Earlier Blue Note CDs in my collection sounded harsh compared to the DMM pressings that Blue Note was issuing at the same time. (And DMM is yet another subject altogether, because LPs remastered using the DMM process sound notably different than other versions mastered using the normal lacquer cutting method)

    Anytime these format discussions pop up, I just shake my head because it's all too easy to pull examples out of my own collection that support both arguments. If I can easily identify cases where a vinyl version sounds better than the CD, or where the CD sounds better than the LP, then obviously factors other than the format itself are at work. And the only way to definitively infer the superiority of one format over another is to compare to the master source. Since most of us on this board do not have access to original studio masters (or even heard a live board feed before), the vinyl vs. CD arguments IMO are absurd wastes of bandwidth.
    Look at all the FUN people are getting out of arguing LP vs CD. And you want to take that away!

    Had to laugh at your comment (well, not AT it - because of it) about pulling examples out of your collection that supports both arguments. I laughed because even back when I was an LP guy, I had excellent examples of CD... and I don't remember how I reconciled that! Perhaps I told myself "they got lucky with that one".

    Just goes to show that if a person believes an argument strongly enough, mere evidence against the argument just isn't enough.

  12. #87
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlumpBuster
    There have always been stories of artists agonizing over programming and track order. Ziggy Stardust always stuck out for me as a good example of a couple well programmed sides.

    Also, I might be remembering this wrong, but in the movie "Hi-Fidelity" the guys in the record store were arguing "best side ever."
    Yeah-Ziggy is often quoted. But there are many more. I know that Peter Gabriel takes great care in choosing the running order and continues to release his material on fantastic sounding vinyl while embracing new technology. That's the way to go I think.
    You could be right with the movie. Haven't watched it for a while. It could become a good topic though. "Best side ever".

    Bernd
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  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernd
    But the physical and emotional involvment that Vinyl has, lacks in CD. Firstly I enjoy handling the 12 inch size (who doesn't), the artwork and readability of the lyrics. Also Vinyl does not come in a crappy plastic case. But one of the most important aspects, to me, for sticking with Vinyl is this. Consider the importance of Track running order. So often the great tracks are found at the end of side 1 and the beginning of side 2. I welcome a short break by having to get up and turn the record over. Take Pink Floyd's-The Wall. End of side 1 is "Mother "an emotional heavy song that realy demands a little reflection. Same with DSOM. Or Lou Reeds Transformer, Walk on the Wild Side again demands that break to fully appreciate the quality of the song. This point was ilustrated really well by Tom Petty's-Full Moon Fever. After track 5 (end of side 1 on vinyl), Tom makes a spoken word anouncement "CD listeners there will be a short break while those who listen on Vinyl will have to turn the Record over." Then comes a little silence and then another word from Tom."Here is Side 2". And it really works to recapture that bit of magic, CD has taken away and gives you that pause to digest.

    There have always been stories of artists agonizing over programming and track order. Ziggy Stardust always stuck out for me as a good example of a couple well programmed sides.

    Also, I might be remembering this wrong, but in the movie "Hi-Fidelity" the guys in the record store were arguing "best side ever."

  14. #89
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    Where, when...

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    No, its still the same. I made a perfectly normal comment and got called a piece of ****. Its still the same.

    -Flo
    ...and under what circumstance did that occur?

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  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernd

    But the physical and emotional involvment that Vinyl has, lacks in CD. Firstly I enjoy handling the 12 inch size (who doesn't), the artwork and readability of the lyrics. Also Vinyl does not come in a crappy plastic case. But one of the most important aspects, to me, for sticking with Vinyl is this. Consider the importance of Track running order. So often the great tracks are found at the end of side 1 and the beginning of side 2. I welcome a short break by having to get up and turn the record over. Take Pink Floyd's-The Wall. End of side 1 is "Mother "an emotional heavy song that realy demands a little reflection. Same with DSOM. Or Lou Reeds Transformer, Walk on the Wild Side again demands that break to fully appreciate the quality of the song. This point was ilustrated really well by Tom Petty's-Full Moon Fever. After track 5 (end of side 1 on vinyl), Tom makes a spoken word anouncement "CD listeners there will be a short break while those who listen on Vinyl will have to turn the Record over." Then comes a little silence and then another word from Tom."Here is Side 2". And it really works to recapture that bit of magic, CD has taken away and gives you that pause to digest.


    I'll do my best to be polite and non condescending. Aside from the comment regarding the readbility of lyrics and the appreciation of cover art,I don't agree whatseover with anything else in the above post. I think Petty's insertion was more for amusement than anything else, and never felt that there was any "need" for a pause while turning a record over. If a user feels such a need, there is the "pause" button on the CD player's remote.

    I won't try to argue whether one format is better than the other, and agree heartily that it is indeed the mastering that makes the difference (as has been posted on this thread), but aside from the loss of cover art on vinyl and the difficulty in reading lyrics (try reading the lyrics to either of the original cast CD's of "Phantom of the Opera," or "Les Miserables" for example), the "pleasure" of having to get up and turn over an LP is something that completely escapes me, and has since I owned my first record player back in the 50's.

  16. #91
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emaidel
    I'll do my best to be polite and non condescending. Aside from the comment regarding the readbility of lyrics and the appreciation of cover art,I don't agree whatseover with anything else in the above post. I think Petty's insertion was more for amusement than anything else, and never felt that there was any "need" for a pause while turning a record over. If a user feels such a need, there is the "pause" button on the CD player's remote.

    I won't try to argue whether one format is better than the other, and agree heartily that it is indeed the mastering that makes the difference (as has been posted on this thread), but aside from the loss of cover art on vinyl and the difficulty in reading lyrics (try reading the lyrics to either of the original cast CD's of "Phantom of the Opera," or "Les Miserables" for example), the "pleasure" of having to get up and turn over an LP is something that completely escapes me, and has since I owned my first record player back in the 50's.
    Thanks for staying polite.Disagreement is healthy and makes the whole thing exciting. Just imagine if we would all be "Company Men", or falling wholesale for the next "BIG" thing..

    I was talking about the selection of the order of songs. And this is up to the artist and played an important part in the Vinyl only time, but matters less so and to my mind is a loss of the enjoyment. How could you as a listener know when the little break was needed. It was part of the release of a record (or should have been).
    If you never got it that is great. I, one the other hand ,miss it with CD on many releases.

    Peace

    Bernd
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  17. #92
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    You're going to laugh at this - or maybe not!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernd
    Thanks for staying polite.Disagreement is healthy and makes the whole thing exciting. Just imagine if we would all be "Company Men", or falling wholesale for the next "BIG" thing..

    I was talking about the selection of the order of songs. And this is up to the artist and played an important part in the Vinyl only time, but matters less so and to my mind is a loss of the enjoyment. How could you as a listener know when the little break was needed. It was part of the release of a record (or should have been).
    If you never got it that is great. I, one the other hand ,miss it with CD on many releases.

    Peace

    Bernd
    This kind of goes with SlumpBuster's post above.

    One of the things I appreciate and yet do not is CD boxed sets of the "complete" music of a particular artist. This may be more true in jazz than other genres but let's take the Complete Atlantic Recordings of Ornette Coleman as an example (and it matters not if you like Ornette or if you've even heard of him).

    The boxed set covers about 8 LP's, 2 of which I could never find. The other 6 I owned. The problem was the track order. I was so used to listening to the tracks from the LP's in a certain order and the CD places them in chronological order by recording date. Hence, tracks from one LP are mixed in with tracks from another LP very often. I found that annoying... all the while I was rejoicing that I now had found the music from the 2 LP's I was missing. But some of the "synergy" from the old LP's was missing.

    Now I now this may sound like something stupid to ***** about and it probably is. It also has nothing to do with format sound quality. But I run into this kind of thing often. I think the best way would be to take the original LP's and make a corresponding CD for each to include in the boxed set.

    Go ahead and laugh - I deserve it.

  18. #93
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musicoverall
    This kind of goes with SlumpBuster's post above.

    One of the things I appreciate and yet do not is CD boxed sets of the "complete" music of a particular artist. This may be more true in jazz than other genres but let's take the Complete Atlantic Recordings of Ornette Coleman as an example (and it matters not if you like Ornette or if you've even heard of him).

    The boxed set covers about 8 LP's, 2 of which I could never find. The other 6 I owned. The problem was the track order. I was so used to listening to the tracks from the LP's in a certain order and the CD places them in chronological order by recording date. Hence, tracks from one LP are mixed in with tracks from another LP very often. I found that annoying... all the while I was rejoicing that I now had found the music from the 2 LP's I was missing. But some of the "synergy" from the old LP's was missing.

    Now I now this may sound like something stupid to ***** about and it probably is. It also has nothing to do with format sound quality. But I run into this kind of thing often. I think the best way would be to take the original LP's and make a corresponding CD for each to include in the boxed set.

    Go ahead and laugh - I deserve it.
    Is not funny at all. Well just a little. But you're not alone. It surely has something to do with Linguistic Programing.
    But be that as it may. I have a boxed set of "CCRs" complete 7 inch releases and also a copy of their greatest hits on Vinyl and CD. If playing a 7 inch at random the brain tells you what should be next.Freaky!
    Here is another one. Ever tried to write down a complete copy of a lyric without the music playing. I found it almost impossible.

    Bernd
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  19. #94
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...and under what circumstance did that occur?

    jimHJJ(...think hard now...)
    I simply stated "like a few before me in the same thread" that as a reviewer he should use a reference quality setup. I commented that his system is a good typical system for a family man who either doesn't want or can't spend mega bucks on a system. What is so bad about that comment that ONE SINGLE person, YOU get off telling me that i am a piece of ****? What a suprise the moderators dont read those.

    -Flo
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernd
    Thanks for staying polite.Disagreement is healthy and makes the whole thing exciting. Just imagine if we would all be "Company Men", or falling wholesale for the next "BIG" thing..

    I was talking about the selection of the order of songs. And this is up to the artist and played an important part in the Vinyl only time, but matters less so and to my mind is a loss of the enjoyment. How could you as a listener know when the little break was needed. It was part of the release of a record (or should have been).
    If you never got it that is great. I, one the other hand ,miss it with CD on many releases.

    Peace

    Bernd
    I'm still in total disagreement with you, but, as I said initially, I'll try to be polite.

    I have an extensive collection of both LP's and CD's, and my musical tastes run quite a wide gamut: from Santana, The Doobie Brothers, The Eagles, The Moody Blues, Joan Baez, Paul Simon, et. al., to the great classical composers. My classical CD collection alone is close to 1,000 titles, and it is the CD medium that, to me, most benefits classical music.

    Take, for example, any of the following three pieces: Beethoven's 9th; Mahler's 2nd and Mahler's 3rd Symphonies. The power and majesty of all three pieces is best attained by listening to the entire piece, without interruption, and vinyl recordings of any of these provide more "interruptions" than a lover of such music (such as myself) is willing to accept.

    In live performances of all of these pieces (which I have attended on many an occasion) there is no intermission, but only a brief pause between movements, mostly to allow musicians to rearrange their scores in front of them for the next movement, or to just get a bit more comfortable in their seats. The pause between tracks on CD's of these pieces is about that same length, at least with those I own. And, since the Mahler pieces are considerably longer than the Beethoven, they are on 2 discs, and not just one. The time a CD changer takes to change discs is a bit longer than the pause between tracks, but no where near as long as having to get up, remove a record from the turntable platter, put it back in its sleeve, and then place a different record on the platter, put the tonearm down, and return to one's listening position - usually a second or two after the music's begun.

    When I first bought a CD player back in 1983, and purchased CD transfers of LP's I owned, I was a bit surprised to hear that which I knew to be the first track of side 2 so quickly after hearing what had been the last track of side 1, but I came to enjoy this after a while, since it didn't require me to get up and turn the record over. And, if I felt that there was a needed pause between these tracks, then all I had to do was press "Pause."

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by emaidel
    I'm still in total disagreement with you, but, as I said initially, I'll try to be polite.

    I have an extensive collection of both LP's and CD's, and my musical tastes run quite a wide gamut: from Santana, The Doobie Brothers, The Eagles, The Moody Blues, Joan Baez, Paul Simon, et. al., to the great classical composers. My classical CD collection alone is close to 1,000 titles, and it is the CD medium that, to me, most benefits classical music.

    Take, for example, any of the following three pieces: Beethoven's 9th; Mahler's 2nd and Mahler's 3rd Symphonies. The power and majesty of all three pieces is best attained by listening to the entire piece, without interruption, and vinyl recordings of any of these provide more "interruptions" than a lover of such music (such as myself) is willing to accept.

    In live performances of all of these pieces (which I have attended on many an occasion) there is no intermission, but only a brief pause between movements, mostly to allow musicians to rearrange their scores in front of them for the next movement, or to just get a bit more comfortable in their seats. The pause between tracks on CD's of these pieces is about that same length, at least with those I own. And, since the Mahler pieces are considerably longer than the Beethoven, they are on 2 discs, and not just one. The time a CD changer takes to change discs is a bit longer than the pause between tracks, but no where near as long as having to get up, remove a record from the turntable platter, put it back in its sleeve, and then place a different record on the platter, put the tonearm down, and return to one's listening position - usually a second or two after the music's begun.

    When I first bought a CD player back in 1983, and purchased CD transfers of LP's I owned, I was a bit surprised to hear that which I knew to be the first track of side 2 so quickly after hearing what had been the last track of side 1, but I came to enjoy this after a while, since it didn't require me to get up and turn the record over. And, if I felt that there was a needed pause between these tracks, then all I had to do was press "Pause."
    You hit the nail on the head. As I said before Classical pieces and especially long ones do benefit from CDs ability to hold that much more info.
    It's great to read about your collection and varied tastes. I just haven't managed to explore Classical music or got moved by Jazz for that matter but still manage to have a 5000+ (stopped counting at that milestone) music collection split roughly 70/30 in favour of Vinyl.Blues,Rock,Rockn'Roll and Singer/Songwriter and others.

    You and I just place different importance on different things. I would miss the enforced break and it is now a part of the joy of my listening habit. And knowing that the artist took care, and considered, his/her song selection makes it even that much sweeter.

    Take care

    Bernd
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  22. #97
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    hmmm

    There seems to be a lot of discussion about CD vs. LP and what can be ultimately acheived, while that is interesting its hardly the whole picture.

    Not a lot of discussion about conveinience here, with an LP you've got to clean it carefully if you want the most out of it, there also that irritating vertical tracking angle problem. Yes once the turnrtable and the LP are both properly prepared things can be wonderfull. Then the cartridge needs to be replaced or the stylus and the whole set-up nightmare repeats, takes about a year to everything just exactly right. Then some heavy footed clomper walks accross your wood floor and god, it comes out the speakers or "gasp" the record skips.

    Now the CD on the other hand plays the same everytime, good ones stay good, bad ones stay bad. This seems to be true year in year out where the LP slowly becomes worn out.

    There is something to said for getting pleasure from listening without all that effort required for best LP playback.

    There is one other dimension, cost. Pretty decent CD sound can be had in the $1,000 to $2,000 range. An LP system that equals or betters that sound, turntable, cartridge and phono amp easily exceeds that amount and we aren't even including that there are twice as many expensive cables.

  23. #98
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermanv
    There seems to be a lot of discussion about CD vs. LP and what can be ultimately acheived, while that is interesting its hardly the whole picture.

    Not a lot of discussion about conveinience here, with an LP you've got to clean it carefully if you want the most out of it, there also that irritating vertical tracking angle problem. Yes once the turnrtable and the LP are both properly prepared things can be wonderfull. Then the cartridge needs to be replaced or the stylus and the whole set-up nightmare repeats, takes about a year to everything just exactly right. Then some heavy footed clomper walks accross your wood floor and god, it comes out the speakers or "gasp" the record skips.

    Now the CD on the other hand plays the same everytime, good ones stay good, bad ones stay bad. This seems to be true year in year out where the LP slowly becomes worn out.

    There is something to said for getting pleasure from listening without all that effort required for best LP playback.

    There is one other dimension, cost. Pretty decent CD sound can be had in the $1,000 to $2,000 range. An LP system that equals or betters that sound, turntable, cartridge and phono amp easily exceeds that amount and we aren't even including that there are twice as many expensive cables.
    Don't get me wrong, I love CD's. I can't remember the last time I bothered to go through the trouble of loading up an LP. But some people love all that extra stuff. It's nostalgia to them. It gives them a satisfaction that throwing in a CD will never replace for them, no matter how convenient it is.
    Let's see them spin those LP's in their car though.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  24. #99
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Me for one!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernd
    ....

    But the physical and emotional involvment that Vinyl has, lacks in CD. Firstly I enjoy handling the 12 inch size (who doesn't), the artwork and readability of the lyrics. Also Vinyl does not come in a crappy plastic case. But one of the most important aspects, to me, for sticking with Vinyl is this. Consider the importance of Track running order. So often the great tracks are found at the end of side 1 and the beginning of side 2. I welcome a short break by having to get up and turn the record over.
    ...

    Peace

    Bernd
    Vinyl's little riduals are what I miss least about the medium. The fastiduous removal of the disc from the sleeve and placing it on the playing surface, the time consuming de-staticing of the disc, cleaning the stylus, the moments of concentration and trepitation when you lift the stylus on and off, the bobbing up and down every 15-20 minutes to change sides. CD hughly simplified these issues. And the multi-disc changer be came feasible once again

    Better yet, CDs are easily ripped to hard disc and managed with the likes of iTunes. Here content select and sequence becomes trivial and last. Ever you ever considered ripping you LPs to computer disc? This should be only a little more tedious that for CDs.

    According to some, digital recordings of vinyl are essentially indistinguishable from the original. (Provining that sound wasn't the issue with the medium at all, but a matter of the recording appraoch.) The only thing you'd miss would be all that TLC.

  25. #100
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    Hi,

    The 12" line was meant as a joke.

    I,ve never considered putting music on a Computer. It is of no interest to me, can't see the point.Then there is pride of ownership of realy great performing and great looking audio equipment. I do not get that from a PC or Laptop. I marvel at the quality of workmanship of a great Moving Coil cartridge etc.I don't get that from some mass produced box with a screen. All that is part of the enjoyment to me. I am not looking for instant gratification, thats not my nature. I do not mind putting some time and effort into it and realy enjoy the end result of superb sound.
    I have collected records over half of my life and have created a listening room for the sole purpose of enjoying my records. The reasons why I like records I have already given. This is really not a competition and I am completely open to new things.I do own a CD Player. Unfortunatly to my mind nothing has come by yet to replace my enjoyment of Vinyl replay. In the early 80s I fell for the hype "Perfect sound forever" and sold almost all of my then collection of vinyl only to be dissapointed. I have manged to replace 90% of that over the last 20 years and they will not leave my ownership again for the next "Perfect sound forever" thing, that's for sure.
    If every music fan and every magazine and every forum would suddenly say that LP is bad and CD is good, I would still enjoy playing, cleaning (got a RCM) and handling my records aswell as setting up the TT. I enjoy that! And to these ears it sounds better and gives me much more emotional involvement. Never been a follower of the masses. The whole situation of being involved I find relaxing and stimulating much more so then to press a "Play" button and forget about it.
    In my office I only listen to CD as it is right for that environment. And I enjoy it and enjoy the convenience of that medium.
    As long as the listener enjoys what he/she hears from their system that is the right one for them.
    I am sure that many listeners had negative experiences with Vinyl 20+ years back. The TTs were not that good then and on an all in one system (which were oh so popular) back then the TT sat on top and was an after thought and of course CD will wipe the floor with that thing on sound alone.

    Different Strokes for different folkes.

    I enjoy what I own and what I listen to, I hope you do too.

    Peace

    Bernd
    Last edited by Bernd; 03-03-2006 at 04:45 AM.
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

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