Should 'Audiophile' Brands Be Sold In Electronics Mega-Stores?

[dread31]

Carver, perhaps? Didn't Bob sell the company to someone who tried to market the brand at Circuit City, et al? Did they not try to use cheaper parts to bring the prices down? Did it not fail? This comes to mind, because I'm one of those who ran to CC and bought some of this stuff, thinking I was getting a deal. It was s**t, to put it bluntly.

Now, granted, not all of the original Carver products were necessarily "high end".
But, they weren't exactly cheap either.

Some use the example of JBL as an example of this model working.

JBL sells their "mass market" products at "mass market" retailers.

Are their "audiophile" or "high end" products proudly displayed at the
local big box retailer? Can anyone go to BB or CC and pick up a set of Everests?

No.

And I doubt that McIntosh will be selling many MA7000s at Best Buy either, not at the current price level. And...............................How do you bring that down?

Dave

[hermanv]

When they opened a Magnolia here, separate building and staff from the local Best Buy, I thought ho boy, selection and a discount.

They were carrying the smaller Martin Logans, I think I was Parasound equipment all Monster wires. Wow, did it sound awful, hardwood floor hard walls and ceilings made worse by a collection of glass front plasma screens.

When I tried to explain to the salesman, I got blank looks and "it sounds fine to me". The kicker was they wanted full list price. For that price I'll go to the local brick and mortar High End shop and get a good setup, some selection, a little advice, a willingness to mix and match brands for my taste and a little repair facility.

Magnolia still carries some audiophile stuff, but they want to sell you HDTV , they've got hundreds of them, lousy prices. Oh yeah serious overpriced car audio all bass and tweet, never heard of midrange.

[dread31]

When they opened a Magnolia here, separate building and staff from the local Best Buy, I thought ho boy, selection and a discount.

They were carrying the smaller Martin Logans, I think I was Parasound equipment all Monster wires. Wow, did it sound awful, hardwood floor hard walls and ceilings made worse by a collection of glass front plasma screens.

When I tried to explain to the salesman, I got blank looks and "it sounds fine to me". The kicker was they wanted full list price. For that price I'll go to the local brick and mortar High End shop and get a good setup, some selection, a little advice, a willingness to mix and match brands for my taste and a little repair facility.

Magnolia still carries some audiophile stuff, but they want to sell you HDTV , they've got hundreds of them, lousy prices. Oh yeah serious overpriced car audio all bass and tweet, never heard of midrange.

Yep. me too. Honestly, I wouldn't mind paying a little more just for the better service and the opportunity to talk to someone who knows what the heck he (Or she) is talking about.

Don't know about the rest of you folks, but I, for one, am tired of putting up with crappiness in the name of saving few sheckels.

Dave

[Woochifer]

Carver, perhaps? Didn't Bob sell the company to someone who tried to market the brand at Circuit City, et al? Did they not try to use cheaper parts to bring the prices down? Did it not fail? This comes to mind, because I'm one of those who ran to CC and bought some of this stuff, thinking I was getting a deal. It was s**t, to put it bluntly.

Now, granted, not all of the original Carver products were necessarily "high end".
But, they weren't exactly cheap either.

That's one example, and one that does not apply to the current business model for CC or BB.

The Carvers that were sold at CC were the same ones that were carried by the local high end salons, albeit a more limited selection of models. They did not use cheaper parts -- Carvers were just badly designed from the outset.

Their so-called magnetic field amps were banned for retail sale in L.A. County by the Fire Marshall because they failed the UL certification tests. That capacitor-less design ran cool and produced huge wattage numbers (the 5 lb. cube amp could be monobridged to output 400 watts on a test bench), but it was also a fire hazard of the highest order and not the best sounding amp in its price range. Carver wound up going in an entirely different direction thereafter with a full lineup of tube and hybrid gear (which I recall came about well after Circuit City dropped the line), which was much better received than their more gimmicky magnetic field amps.

The Circuit City deal happened way before Bob Carver sold the company. Bob Carver went on to start up Sunfire, which is still around.

Some use the example of JBL as an example of this model working.

JBL sells their "mass market" products at "mass market" retailers.

Are their "audiophile" or "high end" products proudly displayed at the
local big box retailer? Can anyone go to BB or CC and pick up a set of Everests?

Read my earlier posts. JBL continues to make high end products, but they always made a full lineup that went from the entry level all the way up to the high end. JBL's problem is that they no longer have a U.S. dealer network in place that sells those products. Dealers dropped them in droves when they began selling their entry level products in big box stores. JBL did not start making inferior versions of their high end products, they merely went into stores that would not carry their high end lines.

Your assertion was that once a brand goes mass market, everything gets mass produced and their quality takes a hit. I just don't it.

And I doubt that McIntosh will be selling many MA7000s at Best Buy either, not at the current price level. And...............................How do you bring that down?

The Magnolia mini stores inside of Best Buy allow you to special order anything that the standalone Magnolia stores carry (at least the ones in my area do), which includes the full McIntosh lineup, as well as B&K, Primare, Martin Logan, Vienna Acoustics, and Sonus Faber. Not sure about Krell, but those are carried by the standalone Magnolia stores as well.

[Woochifer]

When they opened a Magnolia here, separate building and staff from the local Best Buy, I thought ho boy, selection and a discount.

They were carrying the smaller Martin Logans, I think I was Parasound equipment all Monster wires. Wow, did it sound awful, hardwood floor hard walls and ceilings made worse by a collection of glass front plasma screens.

When I tried to explain to the salesman, I got blank looks and "it sounds fine to me". The kicker was they wanted full list price. For that price I'll go to the local brick and mortar High End shop and get a good setup, some selection, a little advice, a willingness to mix and match brands for my taste and a little repair facility.

Magnolia still carries some audiophile stuff, but they want to sell you HDTV , they've got hundreds of them, lousy prices. Oh yeah serious overpriced car audio all bass and tweet, never heard of midrange.

The emphasis at the Magnolia ministores is home theater. That's why you don't see any two-channel gear on display. Frankly, I'm surprised that the demo room at the Santa Rosa location was all hard surfaced. Every other Magnolia store I've visited has one acoustically treated demo room where they keep the larger Martin Logan and Vienna Acoustics speakers, along with the front projection setups.

As far as list price goes, did you inquire on the price or did you just look at the price tag and conclude that's all they'll sell it for?

I'm on Magnolia's mailing list and BB's reward program. That's how you get private sale invitations, rebates, and discount coupons. It also doesn't hurt to ask -- those coupon deals are in the computer, and depending on who helps you, they might punch it in and give you at least 10% off. You could also check into their open box items, since the 30-day return is one thing that a high end store typically won't offer.

[dread31]

That's one example, and one that does not apply to the current business model for CC or BB.

The Carvers that were sold at CC were the same ones that were carried by the local high end salons, albeit a more limited selection of models. They did not use cheaper parts -- Carvers were just badly designed from the outset.

Their so-called magnetic field amps were banned for retail sale in L.A. County by the Fire Marshall because they failed the UL certification tests. That capacitor-less design ran cool and produced huge wattage numbers (the 5 lb. cube amp could be monobridged to output 400 watts on a test bench), but it was also a fire hazard of the highest order and not the best sounding amp in its price range. Carver wound up going in an entirely different direction thereafter with a full lineup of tube and hybrid gear (which I recall came about well after Circuit City dropped the line), which was much better received than their more gimmicky magnetic field amps.

The Circuit City deal happened way before Bob Carver sold the company. Bob Carver went on to start up Sunfire, which is still around.



Read my earlier posts. JBL continues to make high end products, but they always made a full lineup that went from the entry level all the way up to the high end. JBL's problem is that they no longer have a U.S. dealer network in place that sells those products. Dealers dropped them in droves when they began selling their entry level products in big box stores. JBL did not start making inferior versions of their high end products, they merely went into stores that would not carry their high end lines.

Your assertion was that once a brand goes mass market, everything gets mass produced and their quality takes a hit. I just don't it.



The Magnolia mini stores inside of Best Buy allow you to special order anything that the standalone Magnolia stores carry (at least the ones in my area do), which includes the full McIntosh lineup, as well as B&K, Primare, Martin Logan, Vienna Acoustics, and Sonus Faber. Not sure about Krell, but those are carried by the standalone Magnolia stores as well.

Right. Exactly. The lower line stuff goes to the low end stores. The higher end stuff goes to highend, or "standalone" Magnolia stores.

The question was, "Should audiophile brands be sold in electronics megastores?"

To my mind, BB and CC are the "megastores". Here on the East Coast, Magnolia
has just recently come on the scene. The only one I have seen is very small, and really doesn't seem to have much.

The Best Buy nearest me has a Magnolia inside, and there is very little high end inside the Magnolia. The lower end of the line products of high end companies perhaps.
Special order it? Why, when there are other dealers in the area who may have what I'm after in stock?
If I wanted to order something I can do it myself. Except for the brands who do not sell over the internet, I will concede.

Anyhow, maybe I'm just biased because I've been dealing with the local independent stores for most of my life. And I like it that way. I know the salesmen, the managers and even the owners of some of these stores. And all of them know the products they sell very well. It just seems to me that everytime I go into a big box store, and try to talk about the gear, I'm talking to some kid who still has everything to learn, and doesn't really care. He's just trying to get some quick college money and a month from now some other clueless kid will be in his place.

It's not that I have anything against them, everyone has to start somewhere.

So I enjoy hanging out at the local HiFi shop and talking about gear with people who know what their talking about and actually give a damn.

My answer is still and always will be----no.

So sue me.

Dave

[Woochifer]

Right. Exactly. The lower line stuff goes to the low end stores. The higher end stuff goes to highend, or "standalone" Magnolia stores.

The question was, "Should audiophile brands be sold in electronics megastores?"

To my mind, BB and CC are the "megastores". Here on the East Coast, Magnolia
has just recently come on the scene. The only one I have seen is very small, and really doesn't seem to have much.

And your assertion is that once a "high end" brand goes into a big box store, then its quality automatically goes downhill. Last time I checked, BB and CC were not carrying any high end or former high end brands (unless you're counting JBL or Klipsch as high end), aside from whatever the Magnolia ministores stock. So, the precedent for this is quite limited.

The Best Buy nearest me has a Magnolia inside, and there is very little high end inside the Magnolia. The lower end of the line products of high end companies perhaps.

And aren't those the very same high end companies that you presume will go through a precipitous decline in product quality once they are exposed to a mass market environment?

Special order it? Why, when there are other dealers in the area who may have what I'm after in stock?

Aside from demo units and the more popular items (usually in the lower price ranges), everything carried by the audio stores in my area all need to be special ordered as well. Carrying in-box inventory for every model (or even most models) in a store's lineup is just not feasible for independent stores, especially if they're dealing with five-figure items like Dynaudio's Evidence Master or Krell monoblock amps.

Anyhow, maybe I'm just biased because I've been dealing with the local independent stores for most of my life. And I like it that way. I know the salesmen, the managers and even the owners of some of these stores. And all of them know the products they sell very well.

And I've been dealing with independent stores for the better part of 25 years as well. While I like giving them the business whenever I can, I also don't view them thru rosy lenses either. You call out the big box stores for having clueless personnel (in my experience, that's often but not always true). Of course, I can also generalize based on my experiences dealing with snobby and elitist attitudes at many high end stores. In some cases, it's almost like they don't want to deal with me at all unless I pass their litmus test as to what constitutes acceptable sound quality.

And some of the advice that I've gotten at high end stores is highly suspect (i.e., focus on the cables without mentioning anything about room acoustics). Ironically, the only salesperson I've ever met who knew anything about parametric subwoofer equalization worked at Magnolia.

[hermanv]

The emphasis at the Magnolia ministores is home theater. That's why you don't see any two-channel gear on display. Frankly, I'm surprised that the demo room at the Santa Rosa location was all hard surfaced. Every other Magnolia store I've visited has one acoustically treated demo room where they keep the larger Martin Logan and Vienna Acoustics speakers, along with the front projection setups.

As far as list price goes, did you inquire on the price or did you just look at the price tag and conclude that's all they'll sell it for?

I'm on Magnolia's mailing list and BB's reward program. That's how you get private sale invitations, rebates, and discount coupons. It also doesn't hurt to ask -- those coupon deals are in the computer, and depending on who helps you, they might punch it in and give you at least 10% off. You could also check into their open box items, since the 30-day return is one thing that a high end store typically won't offer.

It is probably true that much of the presentation is up to the local store manager. I was disappointed enough that I've never tried other Magnolia locations.

Our store has a room full of HDTV another room with 5 channel receivers and a small home theater demo room (with no place to sit). A not too serious selling effort.

I did enquire about pricing on a Samsung DLP they dropped the list from $3,100 (at that time) to $2,900 if I bought the $350 stand. The set was on line at the time for $2,100 without the need to buy the stand. While I understand that there is more overhead to maintain a building and employees, I thought they were high. That set dropped to $1,700 on line the next week with a few places offering free shipping.

If I'm going to pay near top dollar, I expect knowledgeable service and advice. I was told that I would be forced to buy a new set anyway when broadcast went all digital. I live in a fringe area so I have satellite. They knew this and pressed the lie that even satellite users would need a converter box or a new TV.

[Auricauricle]

Think about the brat blowing bubblegum....

It seems to me that at one time or another, the interest in things audiophile was pretty much confined to the cognosceti, who regularly attended concerts, etc., and wanted to reproduce what they heard (to an extent) at home. Because (this is the way my reasoning is going this moment, so stay with me) greater fidelity was needed, the supply was made available. Because most of the people who went to these concerts were very well educated they were generally well-heeled and able to afford top-tier stuff to produce the desired recreation.

As the years went by, increasing numbers of people went to college and education was available for a wider array of humanity, and the base of available consumers shifted from the savvy, well-heeled to the not-so-savvy, middle-class. So more products were made to meet these demands. Good music, but not as much attention to high-quality: just good enough products to placate the masses.

As the class of people with fair knowledge of music, etc., expands the market will correspondingly refect their needs. Having not cut their teeth in the great halls or not knowing the difference between a piccolo and a bassoon, they have no standard by which to guide their taste but the latest Disney Movie a la Broadway or Pirates of the Carribean Icecapades.

In the meantime, the others, who know better will always have a market available. Just as now, with the burgeoning mainstream taking over the market, the number of goods available will get smaller and more expensive.

And then, the reverse will pop back out. The masses will get wealthier, giving them the ability to go to The Met. Increasing quality will be expected, and manufacturers, only happy to please will produce products that suit.

Only to wait for the next round of rabble rousers to inspire the next incarnation of the mediocre.

(A little too much wine here, but a thought to fire accross the bow, in any case!)

[Woochifer]

Our store has a room full of HDTV another room with 5 channel receivers and a small home theater demo room (with no place to sit). A not too serious selling effort.

Sounds like they axed out one of the two demo rooms that typically go into the other Magnolia locations I've seen. Too bad.

I did enquire about pricing on a Samsung DLP they dropped the list from $3,100 (at that time) to $2,900 if I bought the $350 stand. The set was on line at the time for $2,100 without the need to buy the stand. While I understand that there is more overhead to maintain a building and employees, I thought they were high. That set dropped to $1,700 on line the next week with a few places offering free shipping.

Careful though with online prices, because they typically come from unauthorized vendors if the price difference is that large (i.e., no warranty support, and no guarantee that the product is factory sealed or even U.S. spec). You can check on how much the store's willing to come down if you show them the online price quote. In that respect, you might have better luck with an independent store in dealing down. But, don't expect a B&M retailer to totally match an online price, since an authorized unit with a full warranty is not the same thing as an unauthorized unit whose sourcing after leaving the factory is unknown.

If I'm going to pay near top dollar, I expect knowledgeable service and advice. I was told that I would be forced to buy a new set anyway when broadcast went all digital. I live in a fringe area so I have satellite. They knew this and pressed the lie that even satellite users would need a converter box or a new TV.

Call out the manager on that. That kind of BS ain't right, and doesn't help anyone. I know that the other BB locations down in SoCal had been staffing the Magnolia sections with more experienced sales reps. This certainly doesn't sound like the location close to you has done the same due diligence.

[filecat13]

If you're living in L.A., you would not have seen a pre-Best Buy owned Magnolia location, so I don't know what you mean by "assimilation and destruction of the brand." Best Buy acquired Magnolia back in 2000, and their expansion into California occurred only because Best Buy had the deep pockets to finance that expansion. Magnolia's entry into the California market basically knocked both Good Guys and Tweeter out.

Most of the standalone Magnolia locations remain in place because they serve the home installation market where the margins remain healthy. The issue on the retail side is that audio stores simply can't stay in business by only selling components anymore.

If anything, I think BB has smartly leveraged the Magnolia brand by moving Magnolia ministores into their Best Buy stores. This expands access to higher end brands, while still keeping some separation from the mass market offerings on the Best Buy floor.

.

Didn't say that I did.

There was a brand new Magnolia on PCH in Torrance, completely built out in a vacant strip mall space almost immediately after BB acquired Magnolia. It was a pretty good place to go, even if there were mostly old men in there. It was so quiet at times, that I would buy some little thing just to feel like I'd paid something for the use of the building.

On weekends and evenings, things were a bit busier. Without much apparent effort from the parent company, the store slowly cultivated a clientele, and it became busier.

Within a year, the BB three miles down the road on PCH was being renovated for an in-store Magnolia. That's what I mean by "assimilation." When it opened, it was a mockery of the Magnolia brand. Having specialists in different color shirts and having a different supply line can't cover poorly designed listening areas and the stain of flat screens on every square foot of wall space.

None of the types of mid-hi-end equipment on display in the salons of the full store were in evidence. The mix of products was a joke. Sure, you could order anything; you just couldn't see it, touch it, or hear it beforehand.

Shortly after the BB in-store Magnolia opened, the full sized Magnolia was history. Now you know what I mean by "assimilation and destruction."

[pixelthis]

silly silly silly post.
What fine circuitus nonsense.
really, it makes as much sense as an expensive call girl on a street coner with her thumb out, tweeter tried it, look at how it worked out
for them
Big box stores are good for a few things, but for stuff you consider critical, you are just going to need to go to a small dealer, and why you would choose to miss out on that experience is beyond me.
Audio dealers dont get into it for the money (not unless they are really stupid) they get into it for the love.
I cant afford Mcintosh, or even Marantz, mostly, but I can sit and listen to them, or a pair of fifty thousand dollar speakers, and I don't even have to buy anything(at least, not today).
We have made great progress in the quality of the music experience,
the crap the great unwashed listen to today is way better than the crap they used to listen to(small steps)
And we who really like audio, just sitting and listening, well, thats what makes it special, siting on a couch in a small shop listening to
the latest gear and talking shop with the owner and other customers.
You could put the gear in a "big box" store, but not that experience.
Remember, when this started enthusiasts had to build their own gear somethimes, and sometimes still do.
They sell the essentials of life in a Walmart, but never what is
essential

[emaidel]

My answer to this question, like that of a couple of others, is an emphatic, "No." Aside from the fact that that the "space-for-brains" employees at megastores haven't got a clue as to how to explain anything about the benefits of such gear, those stores who do have the wherewithall to explain and demonstrate such merchandise would be totally outraged to see the same gear they spend all their time and effort selling and demonstrating, being sold by some cretin at a megastore based solely on price.

Many manufacturers tried to expand their distribution by taking goods that didn't belong into such stores, only to see the merchandise sit, have their existing dealer base tell them to get lost, and then get massive returns from those megastores claiming that the goods were "unsaleable." And all of this is after the manufacturer has dumped tons of money into advertising and promotional expenses demanded by those retailers. It's a "lose - lose" situation all around.

dbx did this in the 90's, due to an arrogant belief on the part of the then president of the company, and he all but bankrupted the company in the process.

[Feanor]

My answer to this question, like that of a couple of others, is an emphatic, "No." Aside from the fact that that the "space-for-brains" employees at megastores haven't got a clue as to how to explain anything about the benefits of such gear, those stores who do have the wherewithall to explain and demonstrate such merchandise would be totally outraged to see the same gear they spend all their time and effort selling and demonstrating, being sold by some cretin at a megastore based solely on price.

...

I agree total and finally got a round to voting "No way" myself.

In the end likes of Best Buy are not interested in selling stuff that (1) cannot be sold in volume, and (2) requires any degree of sales person expertise or time with the customer. Price is not the issue per se -- if every day someone will walk and without question in plunk down $5k for 60" HDTV or a Bose system, they're fine with that.

[dread31]

Look what happened to the solidly built, "silverface" equipment that so many mid-level manufacturers such as Sansui, Pioneer, Kenwood, etc. made in the 1960' through about the early eighties, ------------when the big box megastores appeared.

I believe we refer to it as the era of "BPC", (Black plastic crap.).
Isn't that right, Fellas? Well, those of us old enough to remember, anyhow.

Some of these brands have ceased to exist altogether.

Why? Because producing at the demand levels and price points that the megastores required forced manufacturers to cut costs. To manufacture offshore, (Even the Japanese had to move production to lower cost countries.), and use cheaper materials. Hence------The Era of Black Plastic Crap.

Now, granted, this equipment wasn't "audiophile" or "high end" to begin with. Nor was it sold in high end salons. Mostly in appliance stores, or depatrment stores of the day.
True, true.

If that is the "current business model", then the current business model is crap. We've seen it before, we will see it again.
If the high end tries to meet the high volume-low price model of BB, CC, etc. They will be forced down the same road. I pray it never happens.

If you lie down with dogs---you get up with fleas.

I still say------No.

Dave

[Feanor]

Look what happened to the solidly built, "silverface" equipment that so many mid-level manufacturers such as Sansui, Pioneer, Kenwood, etc. made in the 1960' through about the early eighties, ------------when the big box megastores appeared.

I believe we refer to it as the era of "BPC", (Black plastic crap.).
Isn't that right, Fellas? Well, those of us old enough to remember, anyhow.
...

If you lie down with dogs---you get up with fleas.

I still say------No.

Dave

I'm old enough to remember the whole of the era, roughly 1970-1980. This was an era of competion of remarkable well-made equipment. And very handsome too:

• Discrete components, that is, PC boards but no ICs -- thus one reason these models are desirable today: they can be repaired
• Toggle switches rather than push buttons
• Knobs rather than, {shudder}, sliders
• Analog tuning dials rather than digital readouts
• Silver (or champagne) colored eschelon, rather black anodized or worse, plastic
• Wood cases if you wanted them, (though I didn't).

No, they weren't all high-end, but in the '70s they were mostly sold in hi-fi shops rather than applicance or department stores.

What really killed off the era, IMO, was the video cassette recorder. People were than and are now inherently more interested in video than in sound. The response of the makers was to cheapen the product.

[Woochifer]

Didn't say that I did.

There was a brand new Magnolia on PCH in Torrance, completely built out in a vacant strip mall space almost immediately after BB acquired Magnolia. It was a pretty good place to go, even if there were mostly old men in there. It was so quiet at times, that I would buy some little thing just to feel like I'd paid something for the use of the building.

On weekends and evenings, things were a bit busier. Without much apparent effort from the parent company, the store slowly cultivated a clientele, and it became busier.

Within a year, the BB three miles down the road on PCH was being renovated for an in-store Magnolia. That's what I mean by "assimilation." When it opened, it was a mockery of the Magnolia brand. Having specialists in different color shirts and having a different supply line can't cover poorly designed listening areas and the stain of flat screens on every square foot of wall space.

None of the types of mid-hi-end equipment on display in the salons of the full store were in evidence. The mix of products was a joke. Sure, you could order anything; you just couldn't see it, touch it, or hear it beforehand.

Shortly after the BB in-store Magnolia opened, the full sized Magnolia was history. Now you know what I mean by "assimilation and destruction."

Actually, the Torrance location's the only full sized Magnolia store in California I know of that has closed since the BB stores began appearing. All of the Bay Area locations have remained open.

If anything, the BB Magnolia locations have expanded the coverage for higher end brands into previously underserved areas. For example, before the Magnolia ministore got added to the Fresno Best Buy location and after Good Guys closed, that town actually had no place whatsoever to demo any AV gear beyond whatever BB, CC, and some appliance stores carried. People wanting to hear Martin Logan speakers or even Denon receivers had to drive more than 100 miles.

The only thing missing from the BB Magnolia locations is two-channel gear, but the name very clearly indicates that the BB locations' emphasis is home theater.

I don't know what you mean by lack of "apparent effort" by the parent company. After making my first purchase at the Santa Clara Magnolia store, I've been getting invites to their frequent private sales and open house events. And the sales reps at that particular store actually call their customers afterwards to check up on how their purchase is working out. I'll grant you that the BB Magnolia locations don't do this.

My concern for Magnolia is not about "assimilation and destruction" by BB, since the Magnolia subsidiary operates under the same management team that ran the chain before BB acquired it. My concern's more about the market trends and how it impacts the Magnolia (and all other audio) stores.

The standalone Magnolia locations have been slowly getting renovated into home installation showrooms. This means fewer demo models on the floor, and more space devoted to home automation and installed systems.

Unfortunately, that's the reality of electronics retailing -- unless they deal in comparable volumes as a big box chain, specialty audio/video stores can no longer survive by just selling components. The home installation services have a much higher margin, and that's how many of the surviving high end audio stores in my area keep their doors open. Magnolia has always had these services with licensed contractors on staff, but it seems that now they are putting more of their product mix into that area.

[Woochifer]

Look what happened to the solidly built, "silverface" equipment that so many mid-level manufacturers such as Sansui, Pioneer, Kenwood, etc. made in the 1960' through about the early eighties, ------------when the big box megastores appeared.

I believe we refer to it as the era of "BPC", (Black plastic crap.).
Isn't that right, Fellas? Well, those of us old enough to remember, anyhow.

Some of these brands have ceased to exist altogether.

Why? Because producing at the demand levels and price points that the megastores required forced manufacturers to cut costs. To manufacture offshore, (Even the Japanese had to move production to lower cost countries.), and use cheaper materials. Hence------The Era of Black Plastic Crap.

Now, granted, this equipment wasn't "audiophile" or "high end" to begin with. Nor was it sold in high end salons. Mostly in appliance stores, or depatrment stores of the day.
True, true.

To this end I would agree with you.

However, you're also not considering how the price points held steady even while prices across the rest of the economy escalated. The receivers from that era generally occupied the price points between about $200 to $800. Comparing 1975 dollars with 2008 dollars, that equates to a price range of $800 to $3200.

The manufacturers held the price points steady, even with the massive inflation of the mid to late-1970s, and even with the addition of home theater features during the 1990s. How do you think one of today's two-channel integrated amps selling for around $800 would compare with a vintage $200 receiver? I would say that the build quality and audio quality have actually improved in the meantime. If the manufacturers let their price points escalate with inflation, then of course they would be able to maintain the product quality. They would also find the size of their market just as miniscule as it was back in the 1970s.

The reality that so many audiophiles I've talked with over the years ignore is that most consumers have always spent a relatively narrow portion of their income on audio equipment. Those consumers in the 1970s who couldn't afford receivers would buy compact all-in-one systems or portable record changers, and that's where the vast majority of the market was.

Today, those consumers who can't afford to spend $800 on a two-channel amp, have many other options in the lower price ranges that didn't even exist 30 years ago. Instead of having to settle for the audio equivalent of an all-in-one system, they can buy a component-based system for that same budget. Or they'll spend that budget on a portable device like an iPod, since the one constant in the audio market since the mid-70s has been growth in the portable and mobility markets.

If that is the "current business model", then the current business model is crap. We've seen it before, we will see it again.
If the high end tries to meet the high volume-low price model of BB, CC, etc. They will be forced down the same road. I pray it never happens.

Oh please. Is this really the stuff that you pray for?

The fallacy that you're buying into is that "high end" manufacturers are by definition low volume players. Just look at B&W -- they are the #4 (?) volume speaker manufacturer in the world. Why? Because they market globally and produce a full lineup of speakers from high end all the way down to entry level models. In Britain, B&W speakers are sold thru big box electronics stores, yet I don't see them switching their flagship Nautilus models from exotic composite materials to cardboard and glue because of this. And even JBL came out with the K2 and TiK lines well after they began selling most of their speakers at big box stores.

BB and CC's business model is that they don't carry high end products, outside of whatever BB's Magnolia subsidiary stocks. So, I don't see this as an issue given that there are so many more high end audio companies out there than BB or CC have shelf space for. For BB, their model has worked quite well. For CC, it has not. Conversely, the specialty business model that you seem to promote has equally mixed results if the dwindling number of audio stores in my area is any indication.

[Woochifer]

My answer to this question, like that of a couple of others, is an emphatic, "No." Aside from the fact that that the "space-for-brains" employees at megastores haven't got a clue as to how to explain anything about the benefits of such gear, those stores who do have the wherewithall to explain and demonstrate such merchandise would be totally outraged to see the same gear they spend all their time and effort selling and demonstrating, being sold by some cretin at a megastore based solely on price.

Historically, these dealer relationships have kept a lot of specialty audio brands out of the big box stores (this also would include midrange brands like Klipsch, Onkyo, Sony ES, Pioneer Elite, Yamaha, Denon, and Marantz). But, I think that the line is slowly eroding, primarily because we've lost so many audio/video stores over the past few years.

The JBL example guided the thinking for close to 20 years. Back then, there were enough independent dealers to put a big hurt on JBL when those dealers abandoned the brand en masse after JBL went into big box stores. Manufacturers have since then tried to balance between maintaining good relations with their independent dealers while still finding big box and mail order channels for their products. It still remains to be seen if this can work.

Yamaha and Klipsch only did business with BB after separating out their product lines, changing model numbers and/or face plates, and only selling the entry level products at BB. Same thing goes with HDTVs that wind up at Costco -- they often get rebadged with a new model number, and no product info gets posted on the manufacturers' websites for comparison.

I recall that after Yamaha went into BB, they got dropped by Tweeter and Magnolia (Yamaha has since returned to Magnolia after the ministores inside BB opened). Yet, the independent audio store in my neighborhood continued to carry Yamaha, likely because they were also an authorized Yamaha repair center and got a large portion of their revenues from warranty work.

Many manufacturers tried to expand their distribution by taking goods that didn't belong into such stores, only to see the merchandise sit, have their existing dealer base tell them to get lost, and then get massive returns from those megastores claiming that the goods were "unsaleable." And all of this is after the manufacturer has dumped tons of money into advertising and promotional expenses demanded by those retailers. It's a "lose - lose" situation all around.

That's why you don't see any of the high end brands on the main floor of Best Buy, and it's why they carved out those distinct Magnolia sections in only about 300 of their 1,200 stores. It takes a big population/income base to support an audio store period, and an even higher threshold for high end brands (since consumers looking for high end gear are willing to drive further).

dbx did this in the 90's, due to an arrogant belief on the part of the then president of the company, and he all but bankrupted the company in the process.

I recall dbx's ill-fated foray into the speaker business (didn't Circuit City sell them?). After a few years on the market, they wound up getting rebadged with BSR nameplates and sold thru liquidation catalogs and magazine ads (alongside old DAK catalog stalwarts like the Fone Bone).

dbx I guess was fortunate to have a strong customer base in the pro audio market, and have all that licensing revenue from their MTS stereo TV decoder.

[dread31]

Wooch,

Thank you for the friendly and informative discourse.

I didn't know that B&W was number four in the world, new they were big, but not that big.
That's a good thing, they make nice stuff.

Also didn't know that Carver amps were a fire hazard. Had a few of them and don't recall any flaming episodes. Maybe I just got lucky? Or, perhaps they only burst into flames when used in L.A. County?

Perhaps we audiophiles (Or maybe it's just me.) have a hard time understanding why people don't want to spend stupid amounts of money on audio gear? I'm not a rich man, I'm a mechanic, I work in a coffee cannery. But, I've saved up my money and spent as much as $5,000 on a single component. But, that's me. To each, his own. I say.

Oh, and just because I'm so hardheaded----I still vote ---No.

Dave

[Worf101]

I'm not a fellow of micro-economics but I've spent my fair share of time in Audio/Computer megastores in the last 10 years. The only box store I ever purchased audio from was "Tweeters" which is now long gone. And all I got in there was an open box, basic Sony HT Receiver for an ex-girlfriend. As for high end in the box stores too risky and more prone to failure than success, so my answer would be no.

All the manufacturer will wind up doing is demean his brands cache and squander resources trying to sell Kobe Beef in a MacDonalds. Even the Mega Audio store concept is a failure. Those stores Tweeters etc.. have come and gone but the handfull of boutique audio stores here in the State Capital just keep chuggin' along. I go in them to test certain products but their costs are prohibitive to me for big ticket items.

Bottom line is I think that selling high price gear in megabox stores is a mistake. It dilutes the quality of the product line in a quest for sales that are non-existent. They're thinking Bose not Bryston.

Da Worfster

[emaidel]

I recall dbx's ill-fated foray into the speaker business (didn't Circuit City sell them?). After a few years on the market, they wound up getting rebadged with BSR nameplates and sold thru liquidation catalogs and magazine ads (alongside old DAK catalog stalwarts like the Fone Bone).

dbx I guess was fortunate to have a strong customer base in the pro audio market, and have all that licensing revenue from their MTS stereo TV decoder.

That's not quite what happened. The demise of the dbx speaker line was a result of an ego-manical president who spent a fortune improving the cosmetics of the speakers, and by doing so increased the prices by 50%!! While the new grilles looked really nice, they usually fell off all the time; the multi-angled solid wood bases looked nice too, but were exceptionally expensive to manufacture; and, despite being told by just about everyone else in the company, spending a fortune to install cast-aluminum trim rings around the speakers' ho-hum drivers did nothing to impress anyone. Most of the trim rings (which did look pretty impressive) cost more than the drivers themselves!

The DAK "chapter" came later after the whole company was sold to Carillon Technology Inc. (CTI) who disbanded the dbx consumer line altogether, and had first-rate crap made for DAK and allowed DAK to use the term "Soundfield" in his advertising, even though the junk he was selling didn't even come remotely close to the quality of the standard dbx speaker line, nor did it have the patented Soundfield-imaging dispersion techniques. And, no, Circuit City never sold anything with the dbx name on it, but "The Wiz" in New York did, despite my vehement protests at the time. (Of course, the dbx sales to The WIz were an unmitigated disaster.)

[Woochifer]

Wooch,

Thank you for the friendly and informative discourse.

I didn't know that B&W was number four in the world, new they were big, but not that big.
That's a good thing, they make nice stuff.

I believe that only Bose, JBL, and Klipsch are bigger. B&W was one of the beneficiaries from the JBL fiasco, as stores that dropped JBL wound up picking up B&W to fill out their entry level and midlevel lineup. They offer up one of the largest product lineups of any speaker manufacturer -- lifestyle speakers, in-wall models, bookshelf, floorstanding, iPod docks, etc.

Also didn't know that Carver amps were a fire hazard. Had a few of them and don't recall any flaming episodes. Maybe I just got lucky? Or, perhaps they only burst into flames when used in L.A. County?

The issue in L.A. County was that the Carvers could not pass the UL certification tests, and any electronics item sold in L.A. County had to be UL approved. My understanding is the Carvers actually blew up on the UL test bench. Keep in mind that the UL tests are very demanding, and a lot of manufacturers nowadays clear the UL test by installing an impedance switch and/or protection circuit on the power supply. Carver magnetic field amps had no failsafes built in, presumably because that would reduce the maximum output. With no capacitors, basically this means that the wattage was being drawn in real time from the wall socket -- my friend who sold them held up the power cord and said "This is the storage circuit."

I only know about this because a friend of mine worked at one of Carver's highest volume dealers. Carver was making huge inroads with their gaudy amp specs and claims of exotic technology (in a way they were the equivalent of Bose in the high end world). But, after the Fire Marshall had their say, all of the Carver amps got pulled. The company wound up going in a totally different direction afterwards (that was when Bob Carver fell in love with vacuum tubes).

Perhaps we audiophiles (Or maybe it's just me.) have a hard time understanding why people don't want to spend stupid amounts of money on audio gear? I'm not a rich man, I'm a mechanic, I work in a coffee cannery. But, I've saved up my money and spent as much as $5,000 on a single component. But, that's me. To each, his own. I say.

Oh, and just because I'm so hardheaded----I still vote ---No.

Dave

Figure that the average household spends less than $100 a year on audio gear, so your purchase is taking up the annual allotment for more than 50 of your neighbors.

[hermanv]

When I first entered the work force as an EE, I was mentored by a senior person. One of the things he taught me was to identify the difference between a product and a commodity. Made correctly sugar is sugar a commodity, it doesn't matter if it's from beets or sugar cane or where it was made one simply negotiates he lowest possible price per pound.

A product on the other hand has attributes, that is to say specifications. The car analogy is popular here so I'll use it. In the 60's Detroit still made some of the best cars on the planet. Discussions about torque bars vs. springs, coil over vs. leaf sprigs were all the rage in the magazines. The path to upper management in Detroit was through the engineering department. Then gradually marketing took over, suddenly the big issues became stripes and spoilers, little animal icons and horns that went beep, beep. It has all but destroyed Detroit. They still make solid axle rear ends, Chevy is still using a cast iron block initially designed in 1954, that's 54 years old. If it wasn't for smog laws there'd be no fuel injection.

Big box stores are optimized to sell commodities. High end Audio is about products. The big box stores will do their best to fit their supplier into a commodities mold. This virtually guarantees the eventual destruction of the "product" since the seller could care less about dynamic range and 3rd harmonic distortion.

[Ajani]

It's cool to see that the Friday "Brain Fart" Poll I posted, has generated so much discussion....

Had I not been so out of it on Friday, I really would have included some other choices for the Poll....

While I strongly believe that if High End Audio is to continue beyond the remaining lifespan of exisiting audiophiles, it MUST adjust to the times... I don't think that selling Conrad Johnson on a standard shelf at Best Buy, next to some $400 Denon Receiver is going to improve things...

The best model to me remains what I regard as mid-sized stores, ones big enough to cater to the needs of the majority, but small enough to have trained sales staff and a few good demo rooms for more expensive kit... IF, however, Best Buy etc.. can properly utilize in-store Magnolia demo rooms to promote more expensive brands, then I could see Audiophile Brands having real success in a mega-store...

The idea is not to try and sell expensive (Luxury) audiophile products as if they are disposable products (think ipods)... but to be able to expose the general public to higher levels of performance (and price)...

The other option would be for the Luxury brands to remain in their limited boutique shops and try ADVERTISING!!! Yes, I know that sounds shocking... but it works for Lexus, Rolex and Armani, so why not for Krell and Conrad Johnson???