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  1. #1
    Suspended Smokey's Avatar
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    Smile Rock&Roll is dead, but Hip-Hop is alive and kicking.

    Been listening to Rock for last 25 years and 95% of my collection is Rock, but latest Rock music scenes is really disheartening. There is no soul to recent Rock music, everybodys hollering, jumping up and down and they pass it as music.

    But looks like Hip-Hop music picked up where Rock left off and kicked it into high gear. In the 80s, groups likes Public Enemy, Run DMC and LLCoolJ blazed the trail for Hip-Hop, and that tradition continue today by Dr Dre, Chingy, R. Kelly, Snoop Dog and others.

    Hopefully we will see the resurrection of Rock music.

  2. #2
    JSE
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    Rock is annoying as hell right now. I am a die hard rocker at heart but most of today's rock groups SUCK. You really have to look for decent bands now and then when you buy their CD, one or two songs are good and the rest SUCK! Just today, I learned that one of my favorite bands of all time, Living Color, just release a new cd. I thought, hell yes, the band is back in action after 10 years. Burnin Vernon is back. So, I went straight to Best Buy at lunch and bought it. Know what?

    IT SUCKS!

    Burnin Vernon's flame has gone out and the whole CD is horrible. I wish I never heard it because now one of my favorite bands in the recent past, now SUCKS! And when I say it SUCKS, it really really SUCKS! Did I say it SUCKS?

    Anyway sorry to went but that's the way I feel about the present state of ROCK! I heard Van Hagar is getting back together. It will probably SUCK too. Guess Ed needs some money. When and if Pantera get's back together, they better not SUCK!

    Man Smoke, you got me all stirred up now!


    Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh


    JSE!

  3. #3
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    Rock and Roll never dies, but, often hides

    for a few years.

    This is a hiding time.

    The rap/hip-hop thing is scary. A bunch of illiterate, uneducated thugs, who rap songs worshipping themselves, getting a whole bunch of teenagers and pre-teens thinking its cool to be an uneducated illiterate thug. We won't get into the violence and disrespect/disregard for others.

    Pulled my 14 year old niece out of a crack house a couple of weeks ago. Decent family, but got into the rap thing, started hanging around the wrong people. Stopped doing any of her schoolwork, and now talks like a "gang bangin' crack 'ho". All her friends have that "attitude". I remember the "metal head losers" from when I was a kid, but they were pretty tame.


    Space.

  4. #4
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    There is no such thing as new rock music. It may be called rock, but it ain't rock. Problem is, none of these artists today have 1/100th of the talent the artists of the 70's had. They can't write the music, they can't sing, and they can't play the instruments like the groups of the 70's. How many of today's groups can write a seemingly endless number of killer tunes like Styx did? How many of today's singers can belt out the vocals like Lou Gramm could? How many of today's guitar players can pick like Ace Frehley? How many of today's drummers can pound a set of drums like Neil Pert? The answer to all these questions is none. That's why I listen to either 70's rock, or today's country. Believe it or not, a lot of it sounds like 70's contemporary music. It's not too bad.

  5. #5
    Suspended Smokey's Avatar
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    Smile Rap vs Hip-Hop

    Quote Originally Posted by spacedeckman
    The rap/hip-hop thing is scary.

    I think you may have to distinguish between Hip-Hop and Rap. At least to me in Hip-Hop, music comes first and then lyrics follow. But for Rap it is the other way around and music seem to be same for most Rappers. The only thing that change might be the lyrics.

    R. Kelly might be a good example of Hip-Hop music that I am talking about. Or if we go back in time, music of Al Green and Marvin Gaye is also a good example of HH
    .

  6. #6
    3db
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    I disagree with you Smokey

    A colleague of mine introduced me to such bands as 9 inch Nails (especially the Fragile Album). I picked up Tools album, Laterus and there is some good stuff there. Jane's Addictions latest album is good too. If that stuff is a little to heavy, try "The White Stripes" , a Detroit garage band. Very simple basic rock. But very good.

    I agree that rock has been replaced by Hip-Hop as mainstream music but its still very much alive and kickin.

  7. #7
    JSE
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    Alive and kickin a lot of crap out!

    I know there have always been bad bands and music in every type of music, but Rock lately has taken a downward turn in terms of quality music and albums. The bands 3db mentioned are truly great bands and I listen to all of them alot. I was extremely pleased with Jane's latest album. But, the majority of the rock bands out there today are just crap. Linkin Park? My god, these guys can barely play their instruments. I think the guitarist knows 3 chords and plays them over and over and over. They are truly a joke of a band.

    My point is this. It seems that most of the rock bands around today come out with one or two songs that have been produced to death and then ride on that one or two songs success for a year or so and then they are gone. Which in most cases is for the better. Hell, most radio staions now play the same songs from years past over and over again. They may introduce one or two new songs a week. Why is this? Because the product sucks.

    Current Bands I really like:

    Tool, Pantera, Jane's Addition, Big Head Todd and the Monsters, Kenny Wayne Sheppard, Seven Dust, I will admit it, MatchBox 20, Dave Mathews Band, Metallica, Nickleback, Perfect Circle, White Stipes, Fuel, Incubus, Dream Theater, Kings X, Norah Jones, to name a few.

    Most of these bands produce good music and better yet, good albums from start to finish and are very good live. They are made up of good musicians as well. If you really want to hear some good blues rock, try out Big Head Todd and the Monsters. You Won't be sorry. They don't get much play but they produce some really good albums and are awesome in concert. They are probably the only band I make it a point to see everytime they are in town.

    Anyway, sorry to vent again. Good rock is out there, you just have to spend some time looking.

    JSE

  8. #8
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
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    Sorry to disagree Smokey, but R&R ain't goin' nowhere. As others mentioned, music trends are cyclical (sp?) and right now rock is down. One of the main problems is there is waaaay too much imitation and not enough innovation. If I hear one more band rip off Blink 182's sound I'll friggin puke! Good Charlotte?! Good Grief!

    Rock has broken up into many niches and there are great bands in each. For a stripped down, minimalist sound The Vines, The Strokes, or White Stripes get your blood going. The latest Metallica album is their most hard core since Kill 'em All and Disturbed's latest went multiplatinum. Rap/Rock like Linkin Park and Korn satifies both h/h and rock camps. Tool is one of the most influental progressive rock bands out there, to the point the current rockers like Sammy Hagar say they love their stuff. And finally, Rush's latest album was their best since Moving Pictures IMO.

    Another thing to consider is that as we get older, our sensibilities change. As Rock grows and branches out into newer art forms (see Rap/Rock) it may not be the good ol' rock and roll that we remember and therefore not appeal to us. That doesn't necessarily make it bad, just different from our expectations.

    So no, Rock is not dead. As a matter of fact, I'll bet that it will be back with a vengence within the next 24 months. Watch...it's time.

  9. #9
    all around good guy Jim Clark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokey
    Been listening to Rock for last 25 years and 95% of my collection is Rock, but latest Rock music scenes is really disheartening. There is no soul to recent Rock music, everybodys hollering, jumping up and down and they pass it as music.

    .
    Sorry Smokey but that's spoken like someone who doesn't know jack about music or perhaps someone who's only connection is radio or even worse-MTV. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that there isn't any great Rock that you have discovered?

    Too bad there isn't a forum here where you could find out about some really great music that's happening right now. And wouldn't it be great if many of those members offered up some of their own compilations so you could actually hear some of this music before you went online to order it up? Wouldn't that be a really great place?

    Millions of bands out there selling millions of CDs. I'll bet if you scoped out Rave Recs for a while you might find more than a few bands of interest. *WARNING* you might just expand your horizons! Send me an email or a PM with your address and I'll forward a copy of my 2003 year end comp. Be forewarned that my tastes are heavily skewed toward various forms of electronic music but there will be some rock that makes the cut as well. I'm listening to my first edit right now as a matter of fact and it's awesome!

    Regards,
    jc
    Last edited by Jim Clark; 12-03-2003 at 03:20 PM.
    "Ahh, cartoons! America's only native art form. I don't count jazz 'cuz it sucks"- Bartholomew J. Simpson

  10. #10
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    None of today's groups compare in any way, shape, or form to the groups of the 70's, and none of them have the talent either.

  11. #11
    JSE
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    Quote Originally Posted by grampi
    None of today's groups compare in any way, shape, or form to the groups of the 70's, and none of them have the talent either.

    Huh? You not serious with that statement are you? None?

    JSE

  12. #12
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    I went through the 50's oldies, the doo wap, motown, british invasion and the 70's and 80's rock and roll and I admit I was spoiled with all that great music. Jim's point about all the great bands today maybe so to his taste but maybe to mine not even close to what was available to me in my time.Even though my kids are grown up to this day they say dad you had the best music. Oh by the way don't put Marvin Gaye and Al Green in the HH or Rap category, these guys were so soulful that definitely is not a compliment. Just my thoughts.
    The Nelster

  13. #13
    all around good guy Jim Clark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grampi
    None of today's groups compare in any way, shape, or form to the groups of the 70's, and none of them have the talent either.
    Well, I guess I'd consider that a blessing, but then we'd both be wrong. There was plenty to enjoy in the 70's, just as there is now. You just gotta know about it first. To say it doesn't exist is a display of ignorance and nothing else. That's a statement of fact, not a slam, flame, or attack

    Regards,
    jc
    "Ahh, cartoons! America's only native art form. I don't count jazz 'cuz it sucks"- Bartholomew J. Simpson

  14. #14
    JSE
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    "To say it doesn't exist is a display of ignorance and nothing else. That's a statement of fact, not a slam, flame, or attack"

    Well said, Jim

    JSE

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    The only thing I'm saying doesn't exsist is the level of talent in today's artists as compared to those of the 70's, and that's a fact.

  16. #16
    JSE
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    "The only thing I'm saying doesn't exsist is the level of talent in today's artists as compared to those of the 70's, and that's a fact."

    You said more than that. How is it a "fact"? Just because something is different does not mean it is inferior.

    Let's take some of today's bands. Just the more popular ones, nothing obscure. Pearl Jam, Stevie Ray Vaughn (RIP), Blues Traveler, Tool, Dave Mathews Band, Metallica, Jane's Addiction, just to name a vert limited few. These bands have some incredible musicians in them. Just as talented as the musicians in the 70's. I hate most 70's rock, but I acknowledge there are a ton of talented people in those bands. I would never say that the 70's was void of talent. That's not the "fact" and neither is your contention. If what you said is true, Stevie Ray Vaughn was less of a guitarist than Page, Perry, or Clapton. That's absurd! Stevie was one of the most talented guitarist to ever play. If you have not heard his stuff, do yourself a favor and listen to it. You will be amazed.

    JSE

  17. #17
    Sgt. At Arms Worf101's Avatar
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    Red face From a muscian's perspective...

    Rock/Popular music is cyclical but if you're longing for the days when Guitar Rock dominated the airwaves like a collosus, that day is done. Music has been fractured by single format stations and record company's carving up the public like a pie. What was the last "universal" album? I mean an album that damn near everyone bought or liked at least one tune on? Michael Jackson's "Thriller". Truth be told. As far as musicianship is concerned that goes in cycles as well. The average garage band in the 60's could barely play, as could the average denizen of CBGB;s in the '80's. Chops take work and some have always felt that attitude and looks could substitute for musicianship. It has ever been thus...

    The king is dead, long live the King.

    Da Worfster

  18. #18
    Suspended Smokey's Avatar
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    Smile

    Good discussion guys. But I have to agree with grampi that today's musicians no way can compare with 70's music. How can one put the bands like Pearl Jam, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Tool, Dave Mathews Band or Metallica in the same league as Steely Dan, The Who, Pink Floyd, David Bowie, Neil Young or Alan Parson?

    For example, listen to latest music by Metallica or Dave Mathews Band. Metallica is screaming all the way thru the album, and DMB have lost all the initiations he had back when first started. But there are some respectable bands such as Jane'sAddiction or RedHotChilliPeppers. But nothing like what it was in the 70's and early 80's.

    It is also worth mentioning that today's record music producers get some the blame also. 70/80's Record producers such as Steve Lillywhite or David Briggs are also responsible for some of great music from that era.

    Worf also had a good coment about music has been fractured by single format stations and record company's carving up the public like a pie. It is sad, but true

  19. #19
    all around good guy Jim Clark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokey
    Good discussion guys. But I have to agree with grampi that today's musicians no way can compare with 70's music. How can one put the bands like Pearl Jam, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Tool, Dave Mathews Band or Metallica in the same league as Steely Dan, The Who, Pink Floyd, David Bowie, Neil Young or Alan Parson?
    (smacks his head...hard) In one eye, out the other. *exasperated sigh*

    First off, Young and Bowie are still making music so I have no idea what you're talking about there. Secondly if all you're interested in or exposed to is radio fodder then you deserve what you get until you make it a priority to hear what else is going on in the music world and you obviously haven't and don't seem like you care enough to find out. Of course that's fine but I don't see the point of then complaining about something you know little or nothing about. I'll be the first to admit that finding it is a journey of both disappointment and joy. Like most rides it's the ups and downs that make it fun.

    jc
    Last edited by Jim Clark; 12-04-2003 at 07:28 AM.
    "Ahh, cartoons! America's only native art form. I don't count jazz 'cuz it sucks"- Bartholomew J. Simpson

  20. #20
    all around good guy Jim Clark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worf101
    Rock/Popular music is cyclical but if you're longing for the days when Guitar Rock dominated the airwaves like a collosus, that day is done. Music has been fractured by single format stations and record company's carving up the public like a pie. What was the last "universal" album? I mean an album that damn near everyone bought or liked at least one tune on? Michael Jackson's "Thriller". Truth be told. As far as musicianship is concerned that goes in cycles as well. The average garage band in the 60's could barely play, as could the average denizen of CBGB;s in the '80's. Chops take work and some have always felt that attitude and looks could substitute for musicianship. It has ever been thus...

    The king is dead, long live the King.

    Da Worfster
    Guitar dominated rock-You're right, it's not on the airwaves but that doesn't mean it's not being made. Several bands comprised of extremely talented musicians still pump out prog rock for the faithful. Anyone interested could start with the Flower Kings, Porcupine Tree, and Dream Theater. The Prog boys at RR could name 100's of others, perhaps even better. I dare someone to get Demetrio started.

    What was the last "universal" album? -This year it looks like Evanescence on the rock front. Hugely popular although not really a fave of mine. I don't think I could spend a lot of time defending the album as great but it's spot in the charts speaks to it's appeal to many. Moby's "Play" could be another of the so called 'universal' discs.

    The average garage band in the 60's could barely play, as could the average denizen of CBGB;s in the '80's. Who did you have in mind there? Talking Heads? Ramones? Blondie? All pretty darn original and all created lasting music. No chops?? Ever tried to play the guitar like Johnny Ramone? Ever heard of anyone who could? didn't think so, you'd be the first.

    Regards,
    jc
    Last edited by Jim Clark; 12-04-2003 at 12:21 PM.
    "Ahh, cartoons! America's only native art form. I don't count jazz 'cuz it sucks"- Bartholomew J. Simpson

  21. #21
    drichardson
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    Metal head losers

    Quote Originally Posted by spacedeckman
    for a few years.

    This is a hiding time.

    The rap/hip-hop thing is scary. A bunch of illiterate, uneducated thugs, who rap songs worshipping themselves, getting a whole bunch of teenagers and pre-teens thinking its cool to be an uneducated illiterate thug. We won't get into the violence and disrespect/disregard for others.

    Pulled my 14 year old niece out of a crack house a couple of weeks ago. Decent family, but got into the rap thing, started hanging around the wrong people. Stopped doing any of her schoolwork, and now talks like a "gang bangin' crack 'ho". All her friends have that "attitude". I remember the "metal head losers" from when I was a kid, but they were pretty tame.


    Space.

    What's happened to the metal head losers, they're just as violent as the thugs. When you look at the "death heads" (all black, morbid types) and who they look up to - Marilyn Manson??!!! These people are also killing people but usually wind up killing themselves afterwards. I think the state of music period is on a down swing. I limit my listening to classical, jazz, and Christian genures (the Christian rap group Cross Movement has literally changed lives where I come from). Maybe if your niece learns the real story - and give her an alternative (i.e. Cross Movement) she'll straighten up. Hey, its just a thought. I hate to see children go the wrong way, friends are strong influence.

  22. #22
    3db
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    [QUOTE=Smokey]Good discussion guys. But I have to agree with grampi that today's musicians no way can compare with 70's music. How can one put the bands like Pearl Jam, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Tool, Dave Mathews Band or Metallica in the same league as Steely Dan, The Who, Pink Floyd, David Bowie, Neil Young or Alan Parson?



    Surely your not serious. I would have easily pitted Stevie ray Vaughan against any of them including my fav band Led Zepellin as far as having guitar prowness and he would have mopped the floor with Steey Dan and Peter Townshend if he were still alive

    The thing is your trying to compare apples and oranges and it can't be done in a meaningfuly way. Music, especially rock is about change. Its changing and evolving.


    For example, listen to latest music by Metallica or Dave Mathews Band. Metallica is screaming all the way thru the album, and DMB have lost all the initiations he had back when first started. But there are some respectable bands such as Jane'sAddiction or RedHotChilliPeppers. But nothing like what it was in the 70's and early 80's.

    I agree with you here to some degree. I never was a Metalic fan. I have 2 DMB albums and won't get anymore because they sound too much alike. But the ones I do have, I like. There is alot of complexity in his music and its a good test CD to test sound resolution of an audio system. Nine Inch nails is very innovative in their approach. The Red Hot Chilly Peppers to me is too formula driven, never liked their stuff.

  23. #23
    JSE
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    "How can one put the bands like Pearl Jam, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Tool, Dave Mathews Band or Metallica in the same league as Steely Dan, The Who, Pink Floyd, David Bowie, Neil Young or Alan Parson? "

    You can't, because generally speaking The Who, Bowie, Pink Floyd, Etc are great bands of the past. Yes, some are still making music, I said generally. The bands I mentioned are great bands of the present and most likely near future. And these are just Popular bands. As Jim stated, there are a ton of lesser known bands out there that are great musicians and have telents that rival bands of the 70's.


    Grampi said the level of talent is not there anymore. Just beacuse a band is not mainstream does not mean they are not talented. I bet there were a ton of bands in the 70's that were not really mainstream that were extremely talented musicians. I am sure some of you guys could rattle off dozens without even thinking. I can do the same with current bands.

    I bet in 30 years this discussion will come up again in soem form. I can hear it now: Man, the bands today (2033) have no talent compared to the great bands back in the last century and earlier this century. Man, remember the Joe Schmoes, that was a great band.

    Taste has nothing to do with talent.

    JSE

  24. #24
    Forum Regular tugmcmartin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokey
    Good discussion guys. But I have to agree with grampi that today's musicians no way can compare with 70's music. How can one put the bands like Pearl Jam, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Tool, Dave Mathews Band or Metallica in the same league as Steely Dan, The Who, Pink Floyd, David Bowie, Neil Young or Alan Parson?

    For example, listen to latest music by Metallica or Dave Mathews Band. Metallica is screaming all the way thru the album, and DMB have lost all the initiations he had back when first started. But there are some respectable bands such as Jane'sAddiction or RedHotChilliPeppers. But nothing like what it was in the 70's and early 80's.
    First, this is really a pretty stupid discussion IMHO. Mainly because any discussion of this sort is about 99.9% subjective. Smokey says flat out that today's musicians in no way compare with 70s music. To him that may be true because he's looking at things from a jaded perspective. I'd bet money that Smokey "came of age" in the 70s and most of the music and bands from that era have some underlying connections with good, happy times in his life and thus he holds a special place in his heart for the artists from that time. And he'd be perfectly fine believing that. I, however, came of age in the 80's and 90's and happen to believe that there are a tremendous amount of talented artists out there who kick the crap out of Steely Dan, the Who, Floyd, Bowie, Neil Young and Alan Parson. I like the Who and Floyd and Neil and Bowie too (Steely Dan and Alan Parsons i could do without), but Young is not a talented musician, IMO. Great songwriter but average musician at best. I'd argue the same about Bowie (tho his compositional skills seem a bit better). The Who and Floyd were both immensely talented bands, but i could name at least 2 dozen bands from the last decade or so that are more talented (and Jane's Addiction and Red Hot Chili Peppers wouldn't be among that list). The point is, i think we tend to put stuff we are more familiar with on an often times illusionary pedestal to the point where we think that nothing will ever compare. But if we actually listen subjectively, i'd imagine we'd all find a lot more to like about music (the present state of rock and roll in general).

    I kinda liken this whole discussion to a conversation i had with a childhood friend of mine a couple days ago. I'm getting ready to have my first child and i'm all kinds of excited. Its gonna be a boy. So to me, this will give me an excuse to go out and buy some cool toys and be able to say its for the kid. So we got to talking about toys and how we missed all of the small, metal, sharp-edged toys that we grew up with 20-30 years ago that served a double hazard for choking/cutting potential. But after actually looking at some of the new toys for the first time in a long time, we both actually found some stuff we thought we be cool to have as a kid now. So while the edges have largely been smoothed out and it seems like almost everything nowadays is plastic, there are still toys out there that i could find that were superior to the quality of the "old-school" toys. Just had to look at it subjectively, thats all.

    Anyway, i'm done rambling. I'll close with just this: any statement by anyone that one decade of music is far superior to another in terms of quality of musicians and bands isn't taking the time truly necessary to find the new gems and is living life with blinders on. Take 'em off. Its nice to be able to look in new directions sometimes.

    T-

  25. #25
    Forum Regular thepogue's Avatar
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    Rock is dead?

    go here (hear) to find the living...

    http://www.wheelies.com/
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Rock&Roll is dead, but Hip-Hop is alive and kicking.-top.jpg  
    Last edited by thepogue; 12-04-2003 at 12:57 PM.
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