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  1. #26
    Audio..Nutz Harleyx's Avatar
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    One Of The Most Intelligent Replies..

    I have EVER heard on this or any board is "Man, I totally dissagree with what you're saying about rock (insert favorite genre here)".
    If we all agreed, this would be the most BORING forum ever. Lately I've been hoping for a duet between Diana Krall and Eddie Van Halen (he could use some work). My tastes vary. As for hip hop...NO! NO! NO!
    It's all wrong.Rock always had a certain honesty to it, no matter how ugly it got. Hip hop is just ignorant and greedy...and mostly old rock samples anyway. There just seems to be SO MANY bands coming out now I guess the rule of averages applies, but some of it is pretty good.
    LONG LIVE ROCK!

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSE
    "How can one put the bands like Pearl Jam, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Tool, Dave Mathews Band or Metallica in the same league as Steely Dan, The Who, Pink Floyd, David Bowie, Neil Young or Alan Parson? "

    You can't, because generally speaking The Who, Bowie, Pink Floyd, Etc are great bands of the past. Yes, some are still making music, I said generally. The bands I mentioned are great bands of the present and most likely near future. And these are just Popular bands. As Jim stated, there are a ton of lesser known bands out there that are great musicians and have telents that rival bands of the 70's.


    Grampi said the level of talent is not there anymore. Just beacuse a band is not mainstream does not mean they are not talented. I bet there were a ton of bands in the 70's that were not really mainstream that were extremely talented musicians. I am sure some of you guys could rattle off dozens without even thinking. I can do the same with current bands.

    I bet in 30 years this discussion will come up again in soem form. I can hear it now: Man, the bands today (2033) have no talent compared to the great bands back in the last century and earlier this century. Man, remember the Joe Schmoes, that was a great band.

    Taste has nothing to do with talent.

    JSE
    I'm not talking about tastes, I'm talking about talent. You may have the two mixed up. When's the last time you heard a guitar player in one of today's bands (and Stevie Ray Vaughn doesn't count because not one of today's musicians) pick like Eric Clapton, Jimmy Page, Ace Frehley, or Eddie Van Halen? Or how about hearing one the lead vocalists belt out lyrics like Lou Gramm, Steve Perry, Dennis De Young, or Brad Delp? Could any of today's drummers even hold Neil Pert's drum sticks? None of today's musicians have even a fraction of the talent these people had. I also don't believe any of them have the music writing talent either, but that's more of a taste issue, so I won't go there.

  3. #28
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    Hip Hop

    A little background, I started my listening career with my parents music, simon and garfunkel, beatles. from there I gravitated toward metal; ac/dc, iron maiden, motorhead. from there 'new wave' the police, talking heads, u2,(started with boy when it first came out), the the, then to punk, then to industrial. Now all of this time I was a musician so I was also listening classical, allman brothers, chick corea, pattituci, monk, parlament, james brown, motown etc. Anyway, I digress. My point is that all music borrows from others; there are influences evident in all styles of music that cross over to other forms.

    Now on to Hip Hop. I myself had/have no appreciation for Hip Hop, when I heard the word Hip Hop, I assumed the thumping bass, the rap lyrics etc. Now just the other day I was flipping channels and came upon the Documentary Scratch. It was about Hip Hop. If the Documentary is accurate, Hip Hop is all about the turntable - hence Scratch. The MC, or rappers came after. Those that consider themselves purveyors of Hip Hop, have no need for rap. Now after learning about the difference between Hip Hop and Rap and watching these 'turntablists' working their set-ups, I have a new appreciation for Hip Hop. Not that I would go out and buy any, I just understand where they are coming from. Always something to learn.

    I guess my point is, to be a complete musician/music aficionado, you need to appreciate all types of music even if you don't necessarily like or listen to everything. Understand that all music has its place. So you have to dig a little to find what you are looking for. I would rather listen to something underground than what clearchannel is shoving down our throats over the airwaves. Even though I appreciate what they are trying to do. $$$ :-)

  4. #29
    JSE
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    Quote Originally Posted by grampi
    I'm not talking about tastes, I'm talking about talent. You may have the two mixed up. When's the last time you heard a guitar player in one of today's bands (and Stevie Ray Vaughn doesn't count because not one of today's musicians) pick like Eric Clapton, Jimmy Page, Ace Frehley, or Eddie Van Halen? Or how about hearing one the lead vocalists belt out lyrics like Lou Gramm, Steve Perry, Dennis De Young, or Brad Delp? Could any of today's drummers even hold Neil Pert's drum sticks? None of today's musicians have even a fraction of the talent these people had. I also don't believe any of them have the music writing talent either, but that's more of a taste issue, so I won't go there.
    Grampi, no offense but, WAKE UP! You are trapped in the past. Get out there and listen to some new music. Quit re-living the glory days. I am not going to get into a person for person comparison because that is a waste of time, but I can tell you that your use of the term "NONE" is not accurate and really somewhat ignorant. There are tons of incredible musicians out there today that are just as talented as Page or Steve Perry. Eddie and Neil I will give you. They are probably two of the best techinical musicians on guitar and drums ever. Notice, I said technical. Technical skills are not everything. You obviously know 70's music and love it. That's great, but don't be so blinded by it that you fail to see what else is out there. You are missing out on some really great music and talent and that's a shame.

    Not my type of music, but what about that guy named Josh Grolin, or Grogin, Grobin, something like that. I heard him the other day and I could not believe his voice. He's not rock, but man can he sing. And what about Norah Jones. One of the sexiest, most suductive voices in a long time. Oh, and her band has some great musicians as well. Her CD and DVD are permanently clued into my DVD player. I know, these are not "Rock" but you are missing out if you have not heard them and many others.


    And bye the way, Ace Frehley?

    JSE

  5. #30
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    Don't let the fact that Ace played for Kiss throw you. He was one of the best, if not THE best gutarist of all time. If you don't believe me, ask Eddie Van Halen. Ace taught him to play.

  6. #31
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    Proved my point!

    Quote Originally Posted by grampi
    Don't let the fact that Ace played for Kiss throw you. He was one of the best, if not THE best gutarist of all time. If you don't believe me, ask Eddie Van Halen. Ace taught him to play.

    I know Ace was a great guitarist but I would not have known that if I only knew/viewed him as a KISS guitarist. I'm not sure I would call him best guitarist of all time, but he is good. Eddie clearly took it to another level.

    Again, get out there and listen to some of the new stuff. You might be suprised. You even might find some Ace's! Don't just go by what you see on MTV (not that they actually play videos anymore), MTV2 or the radio. There is much more out there.

    JSE

  7. #32
    Forum Regular thepogue's Avatar
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    money drives music...

    it's that simple.....Rap and Hip-Hop is todays "Anti" music just as Elvis was in the 50's (wiff that "crazy" leg shaknin' thang), Steppinwolf of the 60's ...the Clash in the 70's...Devo in th 80's....Nivana in the early 90's.....now take a look at each of the above and at first they seem to have NOTHING in common....but the truth be known....they all call to the anti-establishment....kids....who spend money....by records/cd's.....and the market knows this....and sells this...very very well....so when you see the "A-moe-d and the funky-kadina featuring King Kong and Donky Kong"....don't expect much more that raw-ness, a good flow, the "look" and a multi-million dollar marketing machine. BTW please dont think that any one type of music gender has all or none of the talent....I'm not at all a hipster but its hard not to see the genius of M&M (plain or Peanuts!)
    Get out and go to local show and you'll see more local/young talent than you'd ever beleived! Two quick notes on guitar "greats"....and folks...this is ALL my humble opinion...so take it for what its worth...as a HUGH Kiss fan (more so "back in the day") and guitar player...i can tell you Ace is no where near "one of the greats"...sorry to say...the band was/is great for a few reasons (one of them NOT being great musicians) timing when the back first started (rock needed the bands "freshness"), great hooks, great live shows and surprise surprise...MARKETING!! (see above "Anti" ie spitting blood/blowing fire....thank you very much Gene!) Now for Eddie...being the first in anything is always big news...before Eddie...HIS style was unheard of...because of it, still today you can pick out bits and peices of songs that bands still today use his licks (so to speak) so IMHO he is one of the greats... once again much can be said for timing for the band coming on scene......

    well...nuff said...oh one more thing..

    LONG LIVE ROCK!!!
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  8. #33
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    I totally disagree with your assessment of Ace. There were no limits to this guy's playing abilities, and he could play almost any instrument with strings. On his solo album, he played everything except the drums. To say Ace wasn't at least one the greatest guitar players is just wrong! Also, I wouldn't say Eddie was any better than Ace, he just had a different playing style.

  9. #34
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    Smile Ragged Glory

    If you all want to listen to some greatest guitar work ever, then listen to Neil Young's 1991 album Ragged Glory. He blow away guitarist half his age
    .

  10. #35
    Audio..Nutz Harleyx's Avatar
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by grampi
    Don't let the fact that Ace played for Kiss throw you. He was one of the best, if not THE best gutarist of all time. If you don't believe me, ask Eddie Van Halen. Ace taught him to play.
    Ace taught Eddie how to play?? Now that is a quote you'll live to regret.
    Eddie and Ace's playing styles had N O T H I N G similar about them whatsoever....except 4/4 time....
    Eddie has always worshiped Eric Clapton (a guy could emulate worse) but Eddie sounds nothing like him.
    As for Ace, he was PERFECTLY suited to Kiss, and I loved him there.
    Todays guitarist want Ace's $$ and Eddies talent.

  11. #36
    Forum Regular thepogue's Avatar
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    i'll stick with my opinion and risk being wrong...

    as I've been wrong before. One way to "judge" the greats is to see if their peers (other guitar players) try to emulate them. I've subscribed (years ago) to guitar player mag. and can tell you I've never seen any writings that would lead me to beleive that Ace is anything but a good solid player (as judged by his peers). Once again, as a guitar player myself, I've seen his style and think its nothing "above and beyond". Now Eddie...thats a whole different ball of wax. Many a time I watch him play and be left thinking "How did he do that?"

    But if you feel that Ace is one of the "greats"....to each is own. I still very much enjoy him no matter what title he's given (by his fans).
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harleyx
    Ace taught Eddie how to play?? Now that is a quote you'll live to regret.
    Eddie and Ace's playing styles had N O T H I N G similar about them whatsoever....except 4/4 time....
    Eddie has always worshiped Eric Clapton (a guy could emulate worse) but Eddie sounds nothing like him.
    As for Ace, he was PERFECTLY suited to Kiss, and I loved him there.
    Todays guitarist want Ace's $$ and Eddies talent.
    Why would I regret my earlier quote? I heard Eddie say that in an interview. Now if you want to call him a liar, be my guest.

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    I think what's really changed is the music industry.They take a band that's some what talented and they hype them or pump them.Look at Shania Twain.Her frist album.It was good.The songs,the lyrics,the music,she could sing,she was talented,she was country,not that I'm into country,but that was who she was.Then she sells herself out.why?The industry.Money!She's now told what songs to do,what to wear,how to perform,they hype her in a different way.Her songs are not country any more,they're anything they can play on every radio station in the country.They hype Shania Twain because it's bussiness. Big money.And that's what has hurt music and the artists today.Personally I perfer the blues.It's real,it's honest and the musicians are topnotch.The guitarists are the best I have ever heard.And buy the way.Stevie Ray Vaughan is the best guitarist to ever pick up a guitar!

  14. #39
    JSE
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    "And buy the way.Stevie Ray Vaughan is the best guitarist to ever pick up a guitar!"

    Amen!

    Heart, Soul, Emotion, and skill was in every song he played. He was Clapton, Eddie, Hendrix, (Albert) King and Hooker all rolled into one.

    "One of the greatest blues musicians who ever picked up a guitar." óJohn Lee Hooker

    RIP SRV

  15. #40
    Audio..Nutz Harleyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grampi
    Why would I regret my earlier quote? I heard Eddie say that in an interview. Now if you want to call him a liar, be my guest.
    I won't call him a liar, but if I had actually HEARD he said that, I'd argue it even with him. Anyone with ears could tell the difference.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by zapr
    Look at Shania Twain.Her frist album.It was good.The songs,the lyrics,the music,she could sing,she was talented,she was country,not that I'm into country,but that was who she was.Then she sells herself out.why?The industry.Money!She's now told what songs to do,what to wear,how to perform,they hype her in a different way.Her songs are not country any more,they're anything they can play on every radio station in the country.They hype Shania Twain because it's bussiness. Big money.
    Actually, If anyone sold (or still sells) Shania out, it's Shania herself.
    She hooked up with Mutt Lange (Mr. Formula) and the marketing began.
    Mutt is (99% of the time) guaranteed success with his signiture large bass lines and multi layer harmonies. Def Leppard STILL speak about how tough it was to do 100 takes of the same song...but they got damn rich doing it.
    Shania went from a house in Timmins Ontario, to a Chateau in Switzerland...She lip syncs regularly now, but I bet she never worries about the bills.

    What's your music worth to you?

  17. #42
    JSE
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    "Mutt is (99% of the time) guaranteed success with his signiture large bass lines and multi layer harmonies"

    Harleyx,

    It's funny you mentioned that. A week or so ago my wife and I were talking about Shania and Mutt and how her music now sounds a whole lot like Def Leppard. You're right about the bass lines and harmonies. I found myself watching a Shania video with my eyes closed and hearing Def Leppard? Yes, I know. Why would anyone watch a Shania video with their eyes closed? Believe me, I peeked.

    JSE

  18. #43
    Audio..Nutz Harleyx's Avatar
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    GRRoooooWWlllLL

    Yea...even if you hate the music, She's worth a peek with 'mute' on..)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harleyx
    I won't call him a liar, but if I had actually HEARD he said that, I'd argue it even with him. Anyone with ears could tell the difference.
    So you're saying Ace couldn't have possibly taught Eddie because Eddie developed his own style? I'm not following your train of thought.

  20. #45
    Forum Regular thepogue's Avatar
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    Ace teaching Eddie...

    a moot point as far as "greatness" goes...if he did in fact teach Eddie (which I'll keep my opinion to meself) but that might make him a great teacher....was BB Kings teacher a great guitar player?...clapton?...how bout Sugar Ray's trainier...is he a great boxer?...well...you get my point...great players...well...play great! As I said before...i love'em...but as far as being "one of the Greats"...well.....
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  21. #46
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    Watch Out For The Tunnel...

    Quote Originally Posted by grampi
    So you're saying Ace couldn't have possibly taught Eddie because Eddie developed his own style? I'm not following your train of thought.
    My train of thought is simple...and easy to follow.
    Eddie has ALWAYS said he learned to play guitar (after giving up the drums to his brother) by staying home and "noodling" every night while everyone he knew was out partying. All the while listening (and loving) Eric Claptons style.
    I have never heard him mention Ace. He has mentioned others, Jimmy Page comes to mind, but not Ace. That's not a bad thing, I think Ace is great too..even hung out with him and his band for 3 days once just before the 'Kiss and make-up' tour.

    There....did you follow?

  22. #47
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    And I'll keep my opinion to myself about Ace teaching Eddie (even though it sounds like you're calling me a liar). No, being a great teacher doesn't make a great guitar player, being a great guitar player does. I've listened to both Ace's and Eddie's guitar work extensively. If you consider Eddie one of the greats, then you've got to consider Ace one as well because he's every bit as good as Eddie, if not better. If you say he's not, then you haven't listened to enough of his guitar playing.

  23. #48
    Audio..Nutz Harleyx's Avatar
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    Talking Van Kisslen

    No, I'm not calling you a liar. I'm just saying that as a fan of both bands since the '70s, I've never heard that.
    I DID know that Gene SImmons is responsible for discovering Van Halen and getting the record company to ink them.
    There's the 'Kiss Connection'.
    As for who's better...we might as well argue politics or religion, it's pointless.
    Like I stated earlier, The world is a beautiful place because we DON'T all agree on music. Even if you're wrong.
    HAHAHA

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    Yes, I knew about Gene helping VH get their start. His name is even listed on their first album. That's not their only KISS connection though.

  25. #50
    Forum Regular thepogue's Avatar
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    if i was calling you a liar...

    it would be more like..."hey grampi...your a liar..." so now you'll know for the furture..

    BTW how many hours do I need to listen to have my opinion be just like yours?...100, 500, 10,000?....how 'bout this...you pick up a guitar...play it for oh...20 years or so...then we can chat about Eddies and Aces playing styles....and I'll listen to Kiss and VH for that 20 years...and we'll meet up and dissuss this issue again... until then...I'm not changing me opinion...and hopefully you'll keep yours....for better or worse.
    Last edited by thepogue; 12-11-2003 at 06:16 AM.
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