An Open Letter to All Members

[Mr Peabody]

Flo, O'Shag, Ajani and anyone else I might have missed who posted along their thought line on this board, a very valid point of having at least a point of reference or some experience hearing high end gear before trying to tell people what's imagination and where diminishing returns start. You've got anywhere from Pix who thinks anything above his Integra is diminishing, to those who believe it starts after their "B&W/Rotel" system. I don't even believe it starts with a system like mine. I'm sure I am the minority but I don't believe in diminishing returns or if there are it's way toward the top of ultra high end. My main speakers originally retailed at $4.5k, later took a serious price drop, but back to the point, I've also heard the Evidence flagship set up corrrectly which costs now an excess of $100k. Not many can afford them granted but to say there isn't $95k worth of difference, realizing the subjectivity, is still stupid, especially being said from those who have never heard them and can't even imagine their ability, so how can they talk about diminishing anything. Same with any gear. My modest 1.1x DAC costs $1.5k new which is a sizeable price tag for most but again it's stupid to say it wouldn't be worth $25k to buy a Krell kps25s. Again, especially without ever hearing it. If I had the money the purchase would be a no brainer. I know gear is system dependent but the 25s is still the best digital reproduction I've heard. A higher up the line Audio Note may blow it away but I haven't heard one to know but before spending $25k you better bet I'd know. I don't have a problem with anyone saying "I doubt it" or "I think" or "in my opinion" but this board has too many receiver, or mid-fi, owners that argue and take a hard line on whether cables do anything or if it would be a diminishing return for them to buy components with a total lack of understanding, knowledge or experience. Not only is that foolish but it's annoying and a big turn off to anyone who has knowledge, experience and understanding.

An example of diminishing returns to me would be when I wanted to upgrade from my Creek OBH-8 phono stage. I tried a few that were more expensive, including a Primare that was over $700.00 which none gave me a large enough improvement to make it worth the expense. I ended up spending over $1k to get what I thought was a significant enough improvement. If I had bought a cheaper phono stage that didn't do what I wanted that would be a "diminished" return, or what I'd call a waste of money. But to spend what it takes to get the noticeable improvement is NOT a diminishing return. If you have Rotel, not to pick on them but it seems to be the brand tossed around here, it may or may not be diminished to buy a Parasound, there may or may not be an improvement depending on your taste but to spend the money on a Mac, Krell, Conrad Johnson or some other agreed on high end brand would not be diminishing because the difference in sound quality would be as significant as the price difference. Anyone who has the nerve to argue that point has no business talking high end audio. That's not rude it's a fact, how can you talk high end audio if you can't hear the difference between mid-fi and true high end gear? If one can't hear it, fine, then go back to your receiver and stick to talking ONLY to what you know. I don't have enough vision to get a drivers license, but you don't see me on the road behind the wheel despite my lack of ability. So please do me the same courtesy here talking audio. I know of at least a couple members who admitted.in posts to hearing loss yet will still argue against any benefit to better cables or tweaks. They should at least keep an open mind that they may be missing something do to their decreased acuity. Check me if I'm wrong but unless I've lost my mind you've never seen me take a hard line on any TV or video technology, that wouldn't be responsible knowing I don't have 20/20 vision. I will take a hard line on me noticing a difference in any video, I figure if I see it then most anyone should

* I admit I'm not perfect, I use myself as example on certain things because it's what I know best and I don't want to call out anyone in particular, you know who you are. Well, I did Pix but he don't count. There are some here who I've had differences with and still respect and others, well.........

[Ajani]

Flo, O'Shag, Ajani and anyone else I might have missed who posted along their thought line on this board, a very valid point of having at least a point of reference or some experience hearing high end gear before trying to tell people what's imagination and where diminishing returns start. You've got anywhere from Pix who thinks anything above his Integra is diminishing, to those who believe it starts after their "B&W/Rotel" system. I don't even believe it starts with a system like mine. I'm sure I am the minority but I don't believe in diminishing returns or if there are it's way toward the top of ultra high end. My main speakers originally retailed at $4.5k, later took a serious price drop, but back to the point, I've also heard the Evidence flagship set up corrrectly which costs now an excess of $100k. Not many can afford them granted but to say there isn't $95k worth of difference, realizing the subjectivity, is still stupid, especially being said from those who have never heard them and can't even imagine their ability, so how can they talk about diminishing anything. Same with any gear. My modest 1.1x DAC costs $1.5k new which is a sizeable price tag for most but again it's stupid to say it wouldn't be worth $25k to buy a Krell kps25s. Again, especially without ever hearing it. If I had the money the purchase would be a no brainer. I know gear is system dependent but the 25s is still the best digital reproduction I've heard. A higher up the line Audio Note may blow it away but I haven't heard one to know but before spending $25k you better bet I'd know. I don't have a problem with anyone saying "I doubt it" or "I think" or "in my opinion" but this board has too many receiver, or mid-fi, owners that argue and take a hard line on whether cables do anything or if it would be a diminishing return for them to buy components with a total lack of understanding, knowledge or experience. Not only is that foolish but it's annoying and a big turn off to anyone who has knowledge, experience and understanding.

An example of diminishing returns to me would be when I wanted to upgrade from my Creek OBH-8 phono stage. I tried a few that were more expensive, including a Primare that was over $700.00 which none gave me a large enough improvement to make it worth the expense. I ended up spending over $1k to get what I thought was a significant enough improvement. If I had bought a cheaper phono stage that didn't do what I wanted that would be a "diminished" return, or what I'd call a waste of money. But to spend what it takes to get the noticeable improvement is NOT a diminishing return. If you have Rotel, not to pick on them but it seems to be the brand tossed around here, it may or may not be diminished to buy a Parasound, there may or may not be an improvement depending on your taste but to spend the money on a Mac, Krell, Conrad Johnson or some other agreed on high end brand would not be diminishing because the difference in sound quality would be as significant as the price difference. Anyone who has the nerve to argue that point has no business talking high end audio. That's not rude it's a fact, how can you talk high end audio if you can't hear the difference between mid-fi and true high end gear? If one can't hear it, fine, then go back to your receiver and stick to talking ONLY to what you know. I don't have enough vision to get a drivers license, but you don't see me on the road behind the wheel despite my lack of ability. So please do me the same courtesy here talking audio. I know of at least a couple members who admitted.in posts to hearing loss yet will still argue against any benefit to better cables or tweaks. They should at least keep an open mind that they may be missing something do to their decreased acuity. Check me if I'm wrong but unless I've lost my mind you've never seen me take a hard line on any TV or video technology, that wouldn't be responsible knowing I don't have 20/20 vision. I will take a hard line on me noticing a difference in any video, I figure if I see it then most anyone should

* I admit I'm not perfect, I use myself as example on certain things because it's what I know best and I don't want to call out anyone in particular, you know who you are. Well, I did Pix but he don't count. There are some here who I've had differences with and still respect and others, well.........

Good Post.... I used to be a believer in diminishing returns (hell, I started the thread on that topic you're probably remembering - under my old username).... but through listening to different equipment, reading reviews and having discussions with people on this site (yourself included), I realized that audio is not that simple....

I've heard products costing three times as much, that I felt weren't worth the upgrade... I've also heard products costing 6 times as much that were worth it to me... More importantly I realized that to even say 'worth the upgrade' is so subjective and depends more on your disposable income sometimes than the actual sonic differences... Is is a Mercedes better than a Honda? In absolute terms - possibly... but is the upgrade worth it? To someone who can afford it - quite possibly... to someone who will be in severe debt for years to buy it - probably not..... Same thing with audio equipment.... Many reviewers even acknowledge this in their articles... just check out how many glowing reviews are given for specific pieces of budget gear e.g Benchmark DAC1, Revel Concerta F12, Marantz SA8001, Monitor Audio RS6... you'll even hear that the reviewer could be content living with the cheapo product (relatively cheap anyway) in their $100k reference system if they had to... Not that they would of course, since they can afford better... So now my view on audio is simply - There are good setups available at every budget......

Now, I listen to as many oppinions as I can to find products to audition.... then I trust my own ears and look in my wallet (lol)....

[Groundbeef]

Good Post.... I used to be a believer in diminishing returns (hell, I started the thread on that topic you're probably remembering - under my old username).... but through listening to different equipment, reading reviews and having discussions with people on this site (yourself included), I realized that audio is not that simple....

I've heard products costing three times as much, that I felt weren't worth the upgrade... I've also heard products costing 6 times as much that were worth it to me... More importantly I realized that to even say 'worth the upgrade' is so subjective and depends more on your disposable income sometimes than the actual sonic differences... Is is a Mercedes better than a Honda? In absolute terms - possibly... but is the upgrade worth it? To someone who can afford it - quite possibly... to someone who will be in severe debt for years to buy it - probably not..... Same thing with audio equipment.... Many reviewers even acknowledge this in their articles... just check out how many glowing reviews are given for specific pieces of budget gear e.g Benchmark DAC1, Revel Concerta F12, Marantz SA8001, Monitor Audio RS6... you'll even hear that the reviewer could be content living with the cheapo product (relatively cheap anyway) in their $100k reference system if they had to... Not that they would of course, since they can afford better... So now my view on audio is simply - There are good setups available at every budget......

Now, I listen to as many oppinions as I can to find products to audition.... then I trust my own ears and look in my wallet (lol)....

I feel like this might have been covered before somewhere, but I can't put my thumb on it. GM sound familiar? Anyone?

[hifitommy]

you should have been here a couple of years ago when mtrycrafts and eyespy used to frequent this board.

if anybody so much as hinted that he could hear i difference in wire of ANY kind, they would be all over them like white on rice. maybe not eyespy but mtry yes.

i labelled the barkers to be 'chihuahuas' because they would nip and bite these posters in the ankles and discourage them from posting.

THINGS HAVE CHANGED. thankfully.

it was sort of fun but i could see that many posters gave up quickly because they were bombarded with DBT attacks which i labelled 'BTs4Ds'. that is blind tests for dummies. dbt is largely a waste of time in audio. assembling the proper equipment and participants is a daunting task that rarely yields meaningful results.

anyway, glad to have you.

[Ajani]

you should have been here a couple of years ago when mtrycrafts and eyespy used to frequent this board.

if anybody so much as hinted that he could hear i difference in wire of ANY kind, they would be all over them like white on rice. maybe not eyespy but mtry yes.

i labelled the barkers to be 'chihuahuas' because they would nip and bite these posters in the ankles and discourage them from posting.

THINGS HAVE CHANGED. thankfully.

it was sort of fun but i could see that many posters gave up quickly because they were bombarded with DBT attacks which i labelled 'BTs4Ds'. that is blind tests for dummies. dbt is largely a waste of time in audio. assembling the proper equipment and participants is a daunting task that rarely yields meaningful results.

anyway, glad to have you.

What's wrong with dbt? If two audio components have the same measured response, but different price tags, how else can you impartially tell whether there is a real sonic difference between the two? Even well respected brands (such as Revel) use dbt to help determine whether there are real differences when they are testing new speakers... I'll agree that it's not easy to setup a proper dbt.... but once one it is setup, I think it as a very useful test...

However, regardless of how I feel about cables and differences between amps etc... I think we should respect someone else's right to believe what they want...

[Feanor]

What's wrong with dbt? If two audio components have the same measured response, but different price tags, how else can you impartially tell whether there is a real sonic difference between the two? Even well respected brands (such as Revel) use dbt to help determine whether there are real differences when they are testing new speakers... I'll agree that it's not easy to setup a proper dbt.... but once one it is setup, I think it as a very useful test...

However, regardless of how I feel about cables and differences between amps etc... I think we should respect someone else's right to believe what they want...

There is a bit of myth that DBTs never prove differences between components. That isn't true. Even the classic study by Ian Masters in Audio magazine proved that some listeners could in fact distiguish between certain pairs of amp with statistical significance.

However HFT is right: the effort to set up a scientifically sound and also compelling DBT is rarely worth it. Remeber: at best any DBT can only prove that under the very specific conditions of the test and for the given group of participants, difference where perceived. And no DBT can ever prove that no diffences exist.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

you should have been here a couple of years ago when mtrycrafts and eyespy used to frequent this board.

if anybody so much as hinted that he could hear i difference in wire of ANY kind, they would be all over them like white on rice. maybe not eyespy but mtry yes.

i labelled the barkers to be 'chihuahuas' because they would nip and bite these posters in the ankles and discourage them from posting.

THINGS HAVE CHANGED. thankfully.

it was sort of fun but i could see that many posters gave up quickly because they were bombarded with DBT attacks which i labelled 'BTs4Ds'. that is blind tests for dummies. dbt is largely a waste of time in audio. assembling the proper equipment and participants is a daunting task that rarely yields meaningful results.

Woh, a blast from the past. Someone git the electronic heart starting kit, the T man has fallen down and can't git up! Did you say Mtrycraft and eyespy? I haven't heard those names since moses 58th birthday party.

What a bash, still hung over from that one......



anyway, glad to have you.[/QUOTE]

[hifitommy]

"dbt is largely a waste of time in audio. assembling the proper equipment and participants is a daunting task that rarely yields meaningful results. "

it works IF properly done. rarely is it. also, it puts performance anxiety into the equation. therefore, its nearly useless.

[markw]

Isn't that a fancy way of saying that one is afraid that their firmly held beliefs might be proven wrong when depending on one sense alone?

If performance anxiety were that major an issue. most audiophiles wouldn't have any kids.

[Brett A]

you should have been here a couple of years ago when mtrycrafts ...used to frequent this board.

Funny this name should pop up here. This guy has been making attempts to beat me up over on another forum essentially for reporting things that he has read cannot be measured.

I don't wish to pick on him specifically, suffice to say when I recently wandered into this other forum, I was quite taken aback by how sensitive and prone to attack some devout objectivists are.
I understand it as insecurity. People tend to attack when they feel threatened.
(Oh yeh, people also like to be right too.)

[Florian]

Well, it all down to how much you care to spend. This hobby really doesnt need much brain power at all, if you want to go "All out Assault" then you simply need money. You dont even need skill in this hobby and there are no wrong answeres.... exept cheap NAD receivers... lol

[Ajani]

Well, it all down to how much you care to spend. This hobby really doesnt need much brain power at all, if you want to go "All out Assault" then you simply need money. You dont even need skill in this hobby and there are no wrong answeres.... exept cheap NAD receivers... lol

LOL.... Good point actually..... I think the biggest challenge in this hobby is trying to put together a great setup on a more modest budget.... with a total buget of say $3k, try putting together a great 2 channel setup... do you buy new or take a chance on used? Do you go for reproducing the full range of sound (floorstanders) or just concentrate on the mid - hi frequencies (bookshelves)? Do you buy a good source or just 'borrow' or buy your friends $30 Ratshack DVD player and spend the entire budget on amp and speakers? How do you split your budget between components? Do you buy fancy cables or just use the freebie RCAs that come with the amp or cd player?

With lots of money to spend, all you need to do is walk into your nearest shop, listen to the most expensive setup and if you like it... buy it.... Then people see your expensive setup and think you are a real audio expert (or lunatic... lol)....

Anyway, I think sometimes we loose track of the point of having a hobby... to have fun...

[Florian]

Exactly, who the hell cares if my sound is colored, or too large.

I love having a big fat speaker where i have to rent a crane just to move it to my new apartment. Mmmh..... all i care about is blasting my ears out with a huge soundstage and slam attacks that make me shiffer....

[Feanor]

LOL.... Good point actually..... I think the biggest challenge in this hobby is trying to put together a great setup on a more modest budget.... with a total buget of say $3k, try putting together a great 2 channel setup... do you buy new or take a chance on used? Do you go for reproducing the full range of sound (floorstanders) or just concentrate on the mid - hi frequencies (bookshelves)? Do you buy a good source or just 'borrow' or buy your friends $30 Ratshack DVD player and spend the entire budget on amp and speakers? How do you split your budget between components? Do you buy fancy cables or just use the freebie RCAs that come with the amp or cd player?
...

Anyway, I think sometimes we loose track of the point of having a hobby... to have fun...

The fun is so many variables, not the least one's taste in music and personal preference.

I know my present system is extremely well balance and tuned to my tastes, but where's the fun in that? I know that my current components deliver great performance and are amazingly good value for the money; still, I spend plenty of time thinking about possible improvements.

In that regard, it's useful to have multiple systems to play with: the HT set up, the family room TV system, the bedroom system. I'm going to work on getting my daughter interested in a system for her bedroom -- right now she listens only to earbuds her computer or Creative MP2 player. Sad, really

[E-Stat]

you should have been here a couple of years ago when mtrycrafts and eyespy used to frequent this board.

That's funny, I just mentioned him on another thread. What I found to be decidedly non-scientific about their pontifications was the continual extrapolation of tests. Since DBTs resulted in a null result with two dollar Radio Shack interconnects, therefore, the same will be true with Nordost Valhalla. Right.

Mtry soldiers on as an Audioholic Warlord.

rw

[Ajani]

That's funny, I just mentioned him on another thread. What I found to be decidedly non-scientific about their pontifications was the continual extrapolation of tests. Since DBTs resulted in a null result with two dollar Radio Shack interconnects, therefore, the same will be true with Nordost Valhalla. Right.

Mtry soldiers on as an Audioholic Warlord.

rw

That point is the major problem with dbt (and just about any scientific testing)... poor extrapolation of test results.... I fell into the same trap myself, earlier in my audio hobby... I thought that because I could not hear 'major' differences between two cheap CD Players, a dvd player and my mac-mini... that it meant that digital source sounded mostly the same... To do a real test I would also need to have compared more expensive sources to cheaper ones and different expensive ones against each other....

[E-Stat]

That point is the major problem with dbt (and just about any scientific testing)... poor extrapolation of test results....

Actually, the worst fallacy is the assumption that switch boxes used commonly in ABX tests on amplifiers and interconnects don't affect the outcome. Roger Russell and his acolytes affirm that the marginal 0.1 ohm impedance couldn't possibly make a difference. What they completely forget is the common ground connections effectively sum the outputs of the two devices under test anyway. In the case of amplifiers, the distortions are reflected back to the jacks because of the feedback loop. Of course, there is no difference when you are simultaneously comparing both to both.

To do a real test I would also need to have compared more expensive sources to cheaper ones and different expensive ones against each other....

I suggest clearing your head of "expense" when comparing two audio components. Cost is not a good determining factor for performance.

rw

[Ajani]

Actually, the worst fallacy is the assumption that switch boxes used commonly in ABX tests on amplifiers and interconnects don't affect the outcome. Roger Russell and his acolytes affirm that the marginal 0.1 ohm impedance couldn't possibly make a difference. What they completely forget is the common ground connections effectively sum the outputs of the two devices under test anyway. In the case of amplifiers, the distortions are reflected back to the jacks because of the feedback loop. Of course, there is no difference when you are simultaneously comparing both to both.

Why do they use switch boxes? That just seems lazy and creates controversy...

I suggest clearing your head of "expense" when comparing two audio components. Cost is not a good determining factor for performance.

rw

Agreed.... I don't assume more expensive to be better, what I should say is more highly regarded components (which unfortunately are usually more expensive)....