No relationship between price and quality in HiFi?

[Ajani]

Note: this is not the usual discussion about adding up the cost of parts in a product. That’s been beaten to death, resurrected and killed again way too many times… I’m approaching the pricing issue from a different angle:

My question has to do with the relative pricing of products in different markets. Take two DACs as an example:

Benchmark DAC1
&
Rega DAC

In the US both DACs sell for $1K and hence are direct competition for each other. There is already loads of talk about whether the new Rega DAC is better than the Benchmark (and any other $1K DACs).

On the other hand, In the UK, the Rega sells for 500GBP while the Benchmark goes for 950GBP. Thus they are not direct competition (they are in completely different price categories). The questions over there tend to be more how close does the Rega get to Benchmark level performance at half the price?

The reason for the differences in prices in the US versus UK is likely due to local duties and taxes. However, that does not explain the difference in perceived quality. Either the Benchmark should be regarded as poor value for money in the UK or the Rega should be seen as poor value in the US. Yet neither is the case. WHY?

In general US products sell for a lot more in the UK, relative to UK brands. Yet I see no evidence that the US products are seen as poor value compared to UK offerings… Also in the US, there is no evidence that UK products are seen as poor value compared to US offerings….

So based on these findings; I could take any decent speaker selling for $2K (PSB Imagine T for example), jack the price up to $4K and it would be competitive against $4K speakers. Since most of us claim that there are improvements in sound quality to be gained from spending more money, then shouldn’t it be obvious to consumers and reviewers that the Imagine T is out of its depth at $4K?

Just check out the relative prices and reviews for US and CDN products on UK sites such as What HiFi? & HiFi Choice. In addition to the Benchmark, you'll see rave reviews for Krell, Parasound Halo, Revel Performa, Totem, etc, despite being up against much higher levels of competition than they face in the US.

www.whathifi.com & www.techradar.com

(Note: Stereophile is reviewing the Rega this month, if I'm not mistaken, so I'll be anxious to see if they regard it as good value for money at $1K)...

[Poultrygeist]

I wouldn't consider any thousand dollar DAC to be a good value. There are too many good DAC kits out there priced around $200 or less that probably sound as good.

[Ajani]

I wouldn't consider any thousand dollar DAC to be a good value. There are too many good DAC kits out there priced around $200 or less that probably sound as good.

That's a totally different discusion... DIY has its own appeal... And issues... not everyone is either willing or able to assemble a DIY DAC...

[frenchmon]

I wouldn't consider any thousand dollar DAC to be a good value. There are too many good DAC kits out there priced around $200 or less that probably sound as good.

I disagree...The Bel Canto DAC 1.5, and 2.5 in my opinioni is worth the money they are asking...especially seeing they can be a stand alone DAC or DAC and preamp.

[02audionoob]

I've noticed in some circles the reputation of Goldring cartridges improved when they hiked their prices. The increases were far more significant in the US than in their UK prices. I don't believe that there's a direct relationship between price and quality, but I believe there's some relationship. Maybe Rega has more of a value reputation in the UK than in the US?

Much of pricing is obviously a matter of what the market will bear. Some people want to pay a little more. Is an Armani suit better quality than a Brooks Brothers?

[Ajani]

I've noticed in some circles the reputation of Goldring cartridges improved when they hiked their prices. The increases were far more significant in the US than in their UK prices. I don't believe that there's a direct relationship between price and quality, but I believe there's some relationship. Maybe Rega has more of a value reputation in the UK than in the US?

Much of pricing is obviously a matter of what the market will bear. Some people want to pay a little more. Is an Armani suit better quality than a Brooks Brothers?

I suspect you may be on to the answer... I know there must be 'some' relationship... No matter how overpriced someone may think a Magico M5 is, unless you are insane, it is clear that the M5 most cost a lot more to produce than a Paradigm Atom...

However, I suspect much of it comes down to as you say 'what the market will bear'.

That is sad though, as it shows IMO that a lot of the differences we claim between products are really due to price bias and not audible differences....

[tube fan]

I suspect you may be on to the answer... I know there must be 'some' relationship... No matter how overpriced someone may think a Magico M5 is, unless you are insane, it is clear that the M5 most cost a lot more to produce than a Paradigm Atom...

However, I suspect much of it comes down to as you say 'what the market will bear'.

That is sad though, as it shows IMO that a lot of the differences we claim between products are really due to price bias and not audible differences....

This is exactly why I am a huge fan of blind listening tests in audio and of blind tasting tests in wines. I want to eliminate bias based on brand, price, and type.

[Ajani]

This is exactly why I am a huge fan of blind listening tests in audio and of blind tasting tests in wines. I want to eliminate bias based on brand, price, and type.

While I still think it's not that practical for us consumers to do proper blind testing, I think there is no excuse for manufacturers and review mags not doing it...

[tube fan]

While I still think it's not that practical for us consumers to do proper blind testing, I think there is no excuse for manufacturers and review mags not doing it...

Except for speakers, it's very easy to do blind listening of audio components. You just need one other person to do the changes. Believe me, those who make definitive ratings of either wines or of audio gear sighted, often rate the exact same wines/audio components far differently when rating under blind conditions. For example, in a recent tasting (sighted) of wines, an critic of high alcoholic wines praised and bought a pinot noir that he thought was under 14 percent alcohol. Actually, the winemaker changed the labels of the two wines he brought to the tasting. The wine the critic praised was actually WAY over 14%! IMO, the two main reasons blind listening tests are not done in audio are (1) most reviewers would rate the same components quite differently blind vs sighted, and (2) many expensive components would be rated behind others costing much less, often far less.

[cyh]

.....or that people tend to listen with their eyes?

[RGA]

People get seduced by the notion of "import" - Mercedes isn't very good - but it's foreign and if you charge $70,000 for an unreliable piece of garbage that happens to go at high speeds people eat it up.

Also, it is not true in all cases that a reviews are not negatively swayed. Depends on what they compare. Bryston's integrated amp in their shootout got a mere 3 stars which is pretty terrible considering most everything gets 4 or 5. But in that particular test it was going up against a Sugden A21a. The Bryston over there cost more than the Sugden while in Canada it's pretty close to the same price. Either way the Sugden stomps it so it really doesn''t matter what the prices are but it is certainly bad value if you have to pay a few hundred pounds more.

You also have to factor in the ears. American reviewers who are used to the more in your face sound - may view the Brit sound as better simply because it has a different take on things - and people are a sucker for the British accent

People are also often swayed by price - if it costs more it must be better. While that is true a lot it isn't always.

I have never quite understood the appeal of Rega digital. I never really liked the Planet when it was getting raves and I never much liked their amplifiers. Maybe the new stuff is better and perhaps the Brit magazines kind of know Rega better and because they're used to the sound they are better at spotting the weaknesses compared to the Benchmark. The Rega review in Stereophile will only be useful if the reviewer has actually heard good quality DACs like the Benchmark in the sub $2k price class.

[Ajani]

People get seduced by the notion of "import" - Mercedes isn't very good - but it's foreign and if you charge $70,000 for an unreliable piece of garbage that happens to go at high speeds people eat it up.

Also, it is not true in all cases that a reviews are not negatively swayed. Depends on what they compare. Bryston's integrated amp in their shootout got a mere 3 stars which is pretty terrible considering most everything gets 4 or 5. But in that particular test it was going up against a Sugden A21a. The Bryston over there cost more than the Sugden while in Canada it's pretty close to the same price. Either way the Sugden stomps it so it really doesn''t matter what the prices are but it is certainly bad value if you have to pay a few hundred pounds more.

You also have to factor in the ears. American reviewers who are used to the more in your face sound - may view the Brit sound as better simply because it has a different take on things - and people are a sucker for the British accent

People are also often swayed by price - if it costs more it must be better. While that is true a lot it isn't always.

I have never quite understood the appeal of Rega digital. I never really liked the Planet when it was getting raves and I never much liked their amplifiers. Maybe the new stuff is better and perhaps the Brit magazines kind of know Rega better and because they're used to the sound they are better at spotting the weaknesses compared to the Benchmark. The Rega review in Stereophile will only be useful if the reviewer has actually heard good quality DACs like the Benchmark in the sub $2k price class.

Paying premium just because its a foreign import is no better than buying because it is expensive... Either way, sound quality is not your priority...

As for the Bryston review you mention (HiFi Choice if I'm not mistaken); just about every brand gets at least one 3 star review from either HiFi Choice or What HiFi? Check out the Bryston reviews on What HiFi and you'll see a line of 4 and 5 star reviews despite some really high prices relative to the competition... So I don't see that one bad review of the Bryston as out of the ordinary compared to local (UK) brands...

[RGA]

Paying premium just because its a foreign import is no better than buying because it is expensive... Either way, sound quality is not your priority...

As for the Bryston review you mention (HiFi Choice if I'm not mistaken); just about every brand gets at least one 3 star review from either HiFi Choice or What HiFi? Check out the Bryston reviews on What HiFi and you'll see a line of 4 and 5 star reviews despite some really high prices relative to the competition... So I don't see that one bad review of the Bryston as out of the ordinary compared to local (UK) brands...

What Hi-fi isn't Hi-fi Choice - be careful there. Their star system is often relative to what is in the test that particular issue. Something that gets a 5 star in one shootout might only get 4 in another. I find most of that dumb anyway since Sugden got 4 stars in What Hi-fo vs a Roksan that won their shootout even though they said the Sugden sounded the best. So they weight things heavily on things that don't relate to sound quality.

Hi Fi Choice listens level matched and blind. This isn't to say What Hi-Fi is worthless but it's not in the same class. Though Hi-Fi Choice has become a little more (too much so) like What Hi-Fi in recent years.

The problem with the Honda BMW analogy is that there are a LOT more things to consider in a car than audio - in audio it is the sound reproduction and that is pretty much the only consideration - maybe features and for some who have power pig speakers will be limited as to what they can purchase.

With a car - Some people buy for reliability and Honda beats the ever loving snot out of Mercedes and BMW. The Honda Fit is more reliable than ANY Mercedes in the last 20 years - even though you can pay 10 times the price. The fit is FAR better for the environment too - sucks way less gas. If you buy based on these criteria the Fit beats Mercedes and it's not close. If you can get your hands on Phil Ednonston's Lemon-Aid - sold at Chapters in Canada then you can see the results of why pretty much every BMW and Mercedes is not recommended. And even on safety it is surprising that neither make is all that great for the money.

Now if you are talking performance, handling, speed and fancy comforts and electronic gizmos then yeah the Fit loses but for the actual operation of a motor vehicle at legal posted speed limits then Honda stomps the Germans - and Hyundai and certain Kia models do an even better job in the reliability, safety departments over Honda and Toyota.

Scroll down to 10 biggest auto myths - number 2 http://www.lemonaidcars.com/forecasts.html#myths

[Ajani]

What Hi-fi isn't Hi-fi Choice - be careful there. Their star system is often relative to what is in the test that particular issue. Something that gets a 5 star in one shootout might only get 4 in another. I find most of that dumb anyway since Sugden got 4 stars in What Hi-fo vs a Roksan that won their shootout even though they said the Sugden sounded the best. So they weight things heavily on things that don't relate to sound quality.

Hi Fi Choice listens level matched and blind. This isn't to say What Hi-Fi is worthless but it's not in the same class. Though Hi-Fi Choice has become a little more (too much so) like What Hi-Fi in recent years.

The problem with the Honda BMW analogy is that there are a LOT more things to consider in a car than audio - in audio it is the sound reproduction and that is pretty much the only consideration - maybe features and for some who have power pig speakers will be limited as to what they can purchase.

With a car - Some people buy for reliability and Honda beats the ever loving snot out of Mercedes and BMW. The Honda Fit is more reliable than ANY Mercedes in the last 20 years - even though you can pay 10 times the price. The fit is FAR better for the environment too - sucks way less gas. If you buy based on these criteria the Fit beats Mercedes and it's not close. If you can get your hands on Phil Ednonston's Lemon-Aid - sold at Chapters in Canada then you can see the results of why pretty much every BMW and Mercedes is not recommended. And even on safety it is surprising that neither make is all that great for the money.

Now if you are talking performance, handling, speed and fancy comforts and electronic gizmos then yeah the Fit loses but for the actual operation of a motor vehicle at legal posted speed limits then Honda stomps the Germans - and Hyundai and certain Kia models do an even better job in the reliability, safety departments over Honda and Toyota.

Scroll down to 10 biggest auto myths - number 2 http://www.lemonaidcars.com/forecasts.html#myths

I have no issue with your points about the reliability of Honda compared to BMW/Mercedes... Many luxury cars are unreliable crap... however, the point still remains that it should be obvious to anyone that a BMW 3 is a far more expensive car than a Honda Fit, based on "performance, handling, speed and fancy comforts and electronic gizmos"... Much the same way that in audio 2 things should suggest that a product is of lower value: sound quality and build quality... The most I've seen mentioned on a Krell review in the UK was that the aesthetics seemed sub-par for the price point, however they felt the sound quality was outstanding... Despite the amp going for about double it's US price (and competing with UK amps normally selling for double its price)...

Now if (as so many audiophiles and reviewers claim) the differences in sound quality between cheaper and more expensive products are substantial, then a product selling at double its MSRP should sound sub-par for that price point... So even if the build quality isn't a give away, that the product is overpriced, then the sound quality should be... If the sound quality isn't, then either persons are listening with their eyes (sighted bias) or the differences are so small, that they could easily be overlooked (diminishing returns according to some)...

[YBArcam]

People are also often swayed by price - if it costs more it must be better. While that is true a lot it isn't always.

I have never quite understood the appeal of Rega digital. I never really liked the Planet when it was getting raves and I never much liked their amplifiers. Maybe the new stuff is better and perhaps the Brit magazines kind of know Rega better and because they're used to the sound they are better at spotting the weaknesses compared to the Benchmark. The Rega review in Stereophile will only be useful if the reviewer has actually heard good quality DACs like the Benchmark in the sub $2k price class.

It's funny, just two days before you wrote this I decided to dump my Rega Apollo SE for a Simaudio Moon CD.5 (which I picked up yesterday). My dealer had lent me a Rega DAC, the Simaudio CD-1, and the Simaudio i-1, just to try these pieces out in my system. The CD-1 had a much better balance in my set up, and I loved the clear, detailed, and open sound. It just seemed to breathe easier than the Rega sources did, which sound a bit bloated by comparison. For what it's worth, I liked the Apollo SE better than the DAC (the Oppo BDP-93 as transport probably played a part in this). The Apollo SE is a very nice player, don't get me wrong, but I felt the difference with the Moon was noticeable. However, I preferred my Exposure amp to the Simaudio i-1.

I've had Rega digital sources for some time now, assuming they were the best at their price points without really trying much else. I'm glad I decided to. I almost didn't bother trying the CD-1, as I wasn't crazy about the Simaudio system I had heard once before, and I thought their big clock radio like display was goofy. One quickly gets over that kind of thing though, and I'm glad I decided to have an open mind to hearing it in my own home.

Getting to the issue of price/quality, I do think there is a relation. While it's true what some here have said, that price isn't always indicative of quality, I do believe that you have to spend a certain amount to hit a certain quality level. There are always exceptions, but when you hit the $1,000 - $1,500 level for new components, I think you tend to get a certain level of quality that is tough to find at the sub-$1,000 mark. Certainly as far as build quality goes, but I think for sound quality too. So this is the level I've tried to shoot for - my amp and CDP cost about $1,300 each, and my speakers cost $900 (but $2K when new). My turntable is another story, but I plan to upgrade there shortly (Rega P3-24, VPI Scout, or dare I go for a used LP12?). I love the sound I'm getting now and I hope I'm off the upgrade wagon for a while.

[Mr Peabody]

Ajani, you make a valid point.

I remember the NAD 545 CDP getting a rave review in a British magazine, when I auditioned it I didn't understand how it got the raves. Maybe it was cheaper in the UK.... I didn't think it was a bad machine just not the giant killer it was wrote up to be.

I don't really want to create a list as not to offend or get off topic but there are certainly brands that I find don't warrant the price. I guess we really have to learn to trust our own ears.

[Ajani]

Ajani, you make a valid point.

I remember the NAD 545 CDP getting a rave review in a British magazine, when I auditioned it I didn't understand how it got the raves. Maybe it was cheaper in the UK.... I didn't think it was a bad machine just not the giant killer it was wrote up to be.

I don't really want to create a list as not to offend or get off topic but there are certainly brands that I find don't warrant the price. I guess we really have to learn to trust our own ears.

That's what I'd expect to happen given the price differences; audiophiles like yourself should be left scratching their heads and wondering why some products cost so much, when they don't deliver the level of performance of other similar products at the same price... Yet neither the pro nor consumer reviews show that people are noticing any lack of quality for the money...

If I attempted to sell a Honda Civic for the price of a BMW 3, I'd expect car experts (and even average consumers) to notice that there is a substantial difference in quality between the two... Yet in audio I could do the same thing and no one would notice... In fact many persons would rave about how great the Civic is, and argue at length about how much better it is than the BMW....

[02audionoob]

I wouldn't know what the British would do, but I have a hard time believing Americans would pay more because a stereo component is imported. I think we'd pay more for American gear.

[Florian]

I am pretty good at spending a lot of money on HIFI. Even tough i have told this story before, some might find it interesting. I once offered for testing purposes only my Apogee Grand speakers on the german audio market. I do not remember the exact prices but something like 50000€ and got absolutely no response. I pulled the ad and re listed for way over 150000€ and got 3 inquiries. Some people filter by the price, but those people are not interested in value. They see what they like and the price is secondary.

Cheers

[pixelthis]

I am pretty good at spending a lot of money on HIFI. Even tough i have told this story before, some might find it interesting. I once offered for testing purposes only my Apogee Grand speakers on the german audio market. I do not remember the exact prices but something like 50000€ and got absolutely no response. I pulled the ad and re listed for way over 150000€ and got 3 inquiries. Some people filter by the price, but those people are not interested in value. They see what they like and the price is secondary.

Cheers

SAME thing on a smaller scale...
My country preacher granddad could sell anything to anybody.
WHEN BUSINESS got slow at the store he was working at, they would jack the prices up
and put everything on the sidewalk for a "sidewalk sale". Always worked.
And the value of higher priced electronics has always been problematic, because of
the law of diminishing returns.
BETWEEN , say a hundred bucks and a thousand, you get a rather large return,
a large improvement. BETWEEN a thousand and a hundred thousand the improvement is less. So high end electronics are usually gussied up to make up for the fact that
the "improvement" in performance is rather marginal.
Human nature works in reverse, of course. People see expensive gear and think that
it must be something special.
If you don't care about "status" the best bargain on earth is electronics selling for
around a grand, except speakers, which have rules of their own.
To get more performance, the cost will be higher and higher for less and less as you go
along. The law of diminishing returns, the most important and most ignored rule
in this hobby.

[Ajani]

SAME thing on a smaller scale...
My country preacher granddad could sell anything to anybody.
WHEN BUSINESS got slow at the store he was working at, they would jack the prices up
and put everything on the sidewalk for a "sidewalk sale". Always worked.
And the value of higher priced electronics has always been problematic, because of
the law of diminishing returns.
BETWEEN , say a hundred bucks and a thousand, you get a rather large return,
a large improvement. BETWEEN a thousand and a hundred thousand the improvement is less. So high end electronics are usually gussied up to make up for the fact that
the "improvement" in performance is rather marginal.
Human nature works in reverse, of course. People see expensive gear and think that
it must be something special.
If you don't care about "status" the best bargain on earth is electronics selling for
around a grand, except speakers, which have rules of their own.
To get more performance, the cost will be higher and higher for less and less as you go
along. The law of diminishing returns, the most important and most ignored rule
in this hobby.

To add to what you and Florian have said:

In Jamaica, we have a number of shops that sell electronics/clothes/jewelry. And no matter what price is listed on the item, you will be offered a massive discount by the sales rep... So they always try and hustle you into thinking you got a great deal because the item was priced at $200 and they sold you it for $150... Yet in reality, the item probably should have been priced at $130 to start...

[TheHills44060]

Uh, dollar bills don't have ears...your head does. Buy what sounds good to your ears, simple as that. Who cares how much a piece of gear costs depending on where in the world it is sold? What does that have to do with the way it sounds? If you are constantly counting your precious pennies Ajani you'll never be satisfied.

[Ajani]

Uh, dollar bills don't have ears...your head does. Buy what sounds good to your ears, simple as that. Who cares how much a piece of gear costs depending on where in the world it is sold? What does that have to do with the way it sounds? If you are constantly counting your precious pennies Ajani you'll never be satisfied.

I'd suggest reading the original post to understand what the discussion is about... It has nothing to do with counting pennies...

[bobsticks]

I'd suggest reading the original post to understand what the discussion is about... It has nothing to do with counting pennies...

Yes, I'd imagine that the answer to the original post is a bit more complex than the standard conversation about diminishing returns. Given that Rega is a British product there may well be tariffs in place that effect our(U.S.) price versus their domestic cost-to-retail markup.

Product strategy, global or otherwise, involves a myriad of criteria including governmental intervention, exchange rates and the relative ability of a given population to afford am item.

[Ajani]

Yes, I'd imagine that the answer to the original post is a bit more complex than the standard conversation about diminishing returns. Given that Rega is a British product there may well be tariffs in place that effect our(U.S.) price versus their domestic cost-to-retail markup.

Product strategy, global or otherwise, involves a myriad of criteria including governmental intervention, exchange rates and the relative ability of a given population to afford am item.

In fact it gets even more complicated than that... Understanding the reason for the price increase is simple enough; duties/tariffs alone might explain that... Understanding how a Krell Integrated can be considered to be a good value for money when competing with $2.5K amps in the US, but also be considered a great value when competing against $5K amps in the UK is more complicated...