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  1. #26
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Ahh yes I get what you are saying here. The price in a different market doubles and they still like it against other products.

    Do you have any tube amp examples. Solid State examples don't surprise me too much since I've long felt expensive Solid State is merely audio jewelry.
    HiFi Choice currently has a test of tube integrated amps:

    Triode Corporation TRV-88SE
    Pure Sound A30
    PrimaLuna Prologue Two
    Icon Audio Stereo 60 Mk 3
    Consonance Cyber-100 Signature
    Cayin A55-T

    The PrimaLuna got 4.5 stars and the rest got 4 stars... I don't know what price the UK brands in that test sell for in the US, but the Prima and Cayin sell for nearrly double their US prices....

  2. #27
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    I'd suggest reading the original post to understand what the discussion is about... It has nothing to do with counting pennies...
    Yes, I'd imagine that the answer to the original post is a bit more complex than the standard conversation about diminishing returns. Given that Rega is a British product there may well be tariffs in place that effect our(U.S.) price versus their domestic cost-to-retail markup.

    Product strategy, global or otherwise, involves a myriad of criteria including governmental intervention, exchange rates and the relative ability of a given population to afford am item.
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  3. #28
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks
    Yes, I'd imagine that the answer to the original post is a bit more complex than the standard conversation about diminishing returns. Given that Rega is a British product there may well be tariffs in place that effect our(U.S.) price versus their domestic cost-to-retail markup.

    Product strategy, global or otherwise, involves a myriad of criteria including governmental intervention, exchange rates and the relative ability of a given population to afford am item.
    In fact it gets even more complicated than that... Understanding the reason for the price increase is simple enough; duties/tariffs alone might explain that... Understanding how a Krell Integrated can be considered to be a good value for money when competing with $2.5K amps in the US, but also be considered a great value when competing against $5K amps in the UK is more complicated...

  4. #29
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 02audionoob
    It is common knowledge (and well-documented at that) that Honda cars are more "reliable" than Mercedes. If you forever tie yourself to that one criterion, you never get to drive a very nice car. The best cars have some innovative technology in them that sometimes requires repair.
    Very strong perspective, sir...Greenies fo you.

    I'm relatively sure that the folks from "Lemonwhatever" spent a lot of time in the E-Class.
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  5. #30
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    In fact it gets even more complicated than that... Understanding the reason for the price increase is simple enough; duties/tariffs alone might explain that... Understanding how a Krell Integrated can be considered to be a good value for money when competing with $2.5K amps in the US, but also be considered a great value when competing against $5K amps in the UK is more complicated...
    Well, all Macro blather aside, my friend, at the end of the day something is really only worth what folks are willing to pay for it.
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  6. #31
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    Krell may not be the best example, especially depending on which other integrated you put it against at $5k. Some may not be fans of it's overall sound but there's no denying the Krell are pure powerhouses. The "wow" factor could sway some opinions.

  7. #32
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Krell may not be the best example, especially depending on which other integrated you put it against at $5k. Some may not be fans of it's overall sound but there's no denying the Krell are pure powerhouses. The "wow" factor could sway some opinions.
    Krell was just one example. Essentially the same thing happened with Parasound, Revel, Totem, PSB, Paradigm, Benchmark, PS Audio.... Sure they're all good brands... But so are the brands they are competing against...

  8. #33
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks
    Well, all Macro blather aside, my friend, at the end of the day something is really only worth what folks are willing to pay for it.
    Certainly I agree with that... But all this just really shows how arbitrary pricing is and that the notion that we are paying more for better sound quality is often not even close to the truth... it implies that the persons who believe high end is mostly just expensive jewelery are closer to the truth than those who believe that real differences in sound quality exist...

  9. #34
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    Certainly I agree with that... But all this just really shows how arbitrary pricing is and that the notion that we are paying more for better sound quality is often not even close to the truth... it implies that the persons who believe high end is mostly just expensive jewelery are closer to the truth than those who believe that real differences in sound quality exist...
    Sort of but how could it be any different in a hobby that is overwhelmingly based on personal preferences?

    It occurs to me as well that of the brands listed above all of them have a high level of name recognition and have received good press on these shores.
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  10. #35
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks
    Sort of but how could it be any different in a hobby that is overwhelmingly based on personal preferences?
    Personal preference explains why I might be a SET lover while you love megawatt Solid State amps... But it's a much less satisfying explanation for why I'd regard one SET amp as only a good $1K amp, yet if it was priced at $2K I'd regard it as a good $2K amp... Here's the thing: in the audio press and in user forums like this: someone shopping for a $3K SET Amp would dismiss any $1K amps as being inferior... Now if that same 'inferior' amp was priced at $3K, he should be able to pick up on the fact that it is a lower quality SET amp compared to other SET amps at $3K... If not, then it's not about personal "sonic" preferences but merely about price bias...

    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks
    It occurs to me as well that of the brands listed above all of them have a high level of name recognition and have received good press on these shores.
    So have the brands they are competing against; such as Naim, Rega, Monitor Audio, B&W, KEF, etc....

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    I suspect you may be on to the answer... I know there must be 'some' relationship... No matter how overpriced someone may think a Magico M5 is, unless you are insane, it is clear that the M5 most cost a lot more to produce than a Paradigm Atom...

    However, I suspect much of it comes down to as you say 'what the market will bear'.

    That is sad though, as it shows IMO that a lot of the differences we claim between products are really due to price bias and not audible differences....

    This is exactly why I am a huge fan of blind listening tests in audio and of blind tasting tests in wines. I want to eliminate bias based on brand, price, and type.

  12. #37
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan
    This is exactly why I am a huge fan of blind listening tests in audio and of blind tasting tests in wines. I want to eliminate bias based on brand, price, and type.
    While I still think it's not that practical for us consumers to do proper blind testing, I think there is no excuse for manufacturers and review mags not doing it...

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    While I still think it's not that practical for us consumers to do proper blind testing, I think there is no excuse for manufacturers and review mags not doing it...
    Except for speakers, it's very easy to do blind listening of audio components. You just need one other person to do the changes. Believe me, those who make definitive ratings of either wines or of audio gear sighted, often rate the exact same wines/audio components far differently when rating under blind conditions. For example, in a recent tasting (sighted) of wines, an critic of high alcoholic wines praised and bought a pinot noir that he thought was under 14 percent alcohol. Actually, the winemaker changed the labels of the two wines he brought to the tasting. The wine the critic praised was actually WAY over 14%! IMO, the two main reasons blind listening tests are not done in audio are (1) most reviewers would rate the same components quite differently blind vs sighted, and (2) many expensive components would be rated behind others costing much less, often far less.

  14. #39
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan
    Except for speakers, it's very easy to do blind listening of audio components. You just need one other person to do the changes. Believe me, those who make definitive ratings of either wines or of audio gear sighted, often rate the exact same wines/audio components far differently when rating under blind conditions. For example, in a recent tasting (sighted) of wines, an critic of high alcoholic wines praised and bought a pinot noir that he thought was under 14 percent alcohol. Actually, the winemaker changed the labels of the two wines he brought to the tasting. The wine the critic praised was actually WAY over 14%! IMO, the two main reasons blind listening tests are not done in audio are (1) most reviewers would rate the same components quite differently blind vs sighted, and (2) many expensive components would be rated behind others costing much less, often far less.
    I suspect it has less to do with fear of the results and more to do with arrogance... The view that because I'm a trained listener means I'm not prone to sighted bias... Hence no need to do a blind test...

    I don't think the issues in HiFi are due to corruption but rather to arrogance and incompetence... There really are no checks and balances in place to ensure that what I think I hear is what I actually hear...

  15. #40
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    I'll go with corruption AND arrogance AND incompetence!

  16. #41
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan
    I'll go with corruption AND arrogance AND incompetence!


    I don't doubt there is corruption, but I don't think it's as widespread as people claim... I think most of what persons think is corruption is arrogance and incompetence...

  17. #42
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    Ajani, you and Tube fan are saying you don't have the ability to evaluate gear without a blind test? Myself, I don't buy that. I can agree that some reviewers are biased by advertising dollars, discounts, friendships, etc. I do feel that as individuals if our real goal is sound quality, or what pleases us, we have the ability to hear differences and know what we like. I really hate to use myself as an example, however, when I was looking for a CDP for my second system by reputation and reviews the NAD should have been better than the Emotiva ERC-1. I didn't think so. But as Bobsticks pointed out, the whole thing is subjective, some one else may have preferred the stronger bass and darker presentation enough to have them buy the NAD over the ERC-1. I recently replaced a well known name brand speaker, Dynaudio, with Zu, a brand not many outside of us has heard of. With the CJ gear the Zu is excellent. If I was still running Krell the Dyn's would still be preferred. I know that because I recently hooked my Krell up to the Zu. As a side note the Zu were not bad at all with the Krell, the Dyn's had better synergy though.

    So as I stated earlier you do have a point but let's keep it in perspective. And, I'm sure there are those out there who buy things for status rather than ability. For those of us who have our system's true potential at heart I know some are capable of judging what we prefer.

  18. #43
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Ajani, you and Tube fan are saying you don't have the ability to evaluate gear without a blind test? Myself, I don't buy that. I can agree that some reviewers are biased by advertising dollars, discounts, friendships, etc. I do feel that as individuals if our real goal is sound quality, or what pleases us, we have the ability to hear differences and know what we like. I really hate to use myself as an example, however, when I was looking for a CDP for my second system by reputation and reviews the NAD should have been better than the Emotiva ERC-1. I didn't think so. But as Bobsticks pointed out, the whole thing is subjective, some one else may have preferred the stronger bass and darker presentation enough to have them buy the NAD over the ERC-1. I recently replaced a well known name brand speaker, Dynaudio, with Zu, a brand not many outside of us has heard of. With the CJ gear the Zu is excellent. If I was still running Krell the Dyn's would still be preferred. I know that because I recently hooked my Krell up to the Zu. As a side note the Zu were not bad at all with the Krell, the Dyn's had better synergy though.

    So as I stated earlier you do have a point but let's keep it in perspective. And, I'm sure there are those out there who buy things for status rather than ability. For those of us who have our system's true potential at heart I know some are capable of judging what we prefer.
    I don't think all differences are imagined or that everyone has to be blindfolded to be honest all the time... But I suspect that sighted bias affects us more than we think and seems to affect a lot of reviews as well... So even for persons like yourself, I think the occasional blind test would be a useful tool...

    However, I am still more interested in reviewers and manufacturers doing proper DBT...

    If a consumer buys a product based knowingly or even unknowingly on sighted bias, then so what? Its their money to do as they please... On the other hand if a reviewer recommends a product due to sighted bias, there is an issue...

    Note: The presentations of NAD and Emotiva, Dynaudio and ZU and very different, so you would have to be extremely biased to prefer one over the other just on price... If the presentations were similar and the differences subtle, then sighted bias might affect you...

  19. #44
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    If differences are subtle then there would be no need for change or price would tip the scale if looking for something new.

    DBT would be fun. Maybe manufacturers are afraid to take the chance.

  20. #45
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    If differences are subtle then there would be no need for change or price would tip the scale if looking for something new.

    DBT would be fun. Maybe manufacturers are afraid to take the chance.
    The occasional DBT should be fun... I don't believe in the notion that I have to make every purchase using rigorous scientific testing... But once in a while just to check that the more subtle differences (and even some more obvious ones) are actually there...

    I suspect that many manufacturers are indeed afraid of DBT... I see many brands criticize the DBT techniques used by brands like Harman (Revel) and yet they are not willing to do their own DBT to dispute Revel's findings...

  21. #46
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    Mr Peabody, I've seen hundreds of confident wine tasters humbled by blind tastings. The same thing would happen in audio blind listening IMO. I was at a recent blind listening test of MP3 vs high rez digital, and even I was shocked that over 80% of those attending (most very confident owners of very expensive equipment) thought the hi rez was MP3! Yes, both my wife (who helps in my own blind testing) and I correctly identified the MP3. I hate most digital, but the high rez actually sounded pretty good to me, while the MP3 was flat, and lacked detail. Not close IMO, but only a handful preferred the high rez!

  22. #47
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    I find the mp3 vs hi-rez a bit hard to believe, especially if the listeners are experienced with both, as the compression to me is a dead give away. Sometimes to my ears mp3 sounds so strange from the original recording it's like the song was remixed.

  23. #48
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    HiFi Choice currently has a test of tube integrated amps:

    Triode Corporation TRV-88SE
    Pure Sound A30
    PrimaLuna Prologue Two
    Icon Audio Stereo 60 Mk 3
    Consonance Cyber-100 Signature
    Cayin A55-T

    The PrimaLuna got 4.5 stars and the rest got 4 stars... I don't know what price the UK brands in that test sell for in the US, but the Prima and Cayin sell for nearrly double their US prices....
    The thing here is that 4 and 4.5 are pretty much the same rating. Note that when Hi-Fi Choice reviewed the Audio Note OTO it too got 4 stars even though again they said it "sounded the best" out of all the amps they ran it up against. But it also has very low power and no remote control. The amp is not something that most people can realistically own for the typical loudspeakers. But to me it loses a star for non audio related things.

    The Triode amp sells for under $2,000 US I am pretty sure since it was played at CES 2010. I am not an uber fan of KT88 type tubes but it's probably the choice of guys who like SS sound a little more and can't give it up. I liked the amp for the price. Don't know what the Prima Luna goes for in the U.S but it is likely the better amp - though it's made in China and should not go for too much more. I believe it runs for 1200 pounds in England and about $1600 in the States.

    The thing though is that Prima Luna is bigger than Tri so you can't really go by price completely. Both are imports to the British market so both would be jacked up. Tri may not be able to reduce their costs to the same level that Prima Luna can and therefore gives it a disadvantage. And one listener didn't like the Prima Luna all that much in their blind audition from what I read - and that same listener may have liked the Tri more.

    The PureSound amp they say this
    "Definitely something of a characterful performer, this amp will appeal most to listeners who like their music up close and direct. If you prefer something a little more laid-back, the A30′s presentation may very well strike you short of aggression and, as such, left one of our listeners nonplussed to the point of active dislike.

    The others, however, were more inclined to see the positive side of things. Comments were particularly favourable in the classical music excerpts, which are both relatively ambient recordings.

    The A30 really dug deep into the detail in each and, although there was rather less sense of space around the performers than most of the amps brought out, there was also more insight into the small details.

    This forward presentation is accompanied by a degree of tonal imbalance; a tilt in favour of the upper midrange and treble. Bass is fair, but not seismically extended, while the very highest treble is nicely open and quite sweet.

    Dynamics can sometimes seem a little abrupt, with climaxes appearing almost out of nowhere. Again, this is something that will probably appeal to some listeners as strongly as it repels others.

    Then there’s the question of pace. In some ways, not surprisingly given the forward presentation, this is quite a pacey amp. That said, though, its timing is not always entirely convincing. It can sometimes sound a little rushed and the lack of very deep bass reduces the conviction of a driving bass/percussion riff.

    Note that these comments all refer to triode mode: we tried ultralinear as well, but felt that it merely hardened the sound a little, without really adding anything constructive."

    Sounds to me after reading each of the reviews that in virtually all of them at least one listener didn't like the sound of the unit. You just can't go by the star ratings. The fact that one amp is $600 and is rated over an amp at $900 doesn't really mean everyone will agree. From reading the reviews of these amps they all seemed to me to have certain strengths and the Cayin and Icon and Prima Luna and even the Consonance read pretty equal.

  24. #49
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    Personal preference explains why I might be a SET lover while you love megawatt Solid State amps... But it's a much less satisfying explanation for why I'd regard one SET amp as only a good $1K amp, yet if it was priced at $2K I'd regard it as a good $2K amp... Here's the thing: in the audio press and in user forums like this: someone shopping for a $3K SET Amp would dismiss any $1K amps as being inferior... Now if that same 'inferior' amp was priced at $3K, he should be able to pick up on the fact that it is a lower quality SET amp compared to other SET amps at $3K... If not, then it's not about personal "sonic" preferences but merely about price bias...
    I know several people who have trade in top of the line Cary SETs of Audio Note Kit ones. The Cary looks better and is considerably more expensive and arguably has just a big of a name. They went cheaper and a kit (kits are very likely viewed as worse). I have said often that I like Grant Fidelity far more than a lot more expensive big name products regardless of technology. I'd rather buy a Rita than a McIntosh at 4 times the price for example. And I'd rather buy their less expensive monoblocks and a good preamp over the Rita.

    I keep it to one company line-up. A B&W 805 sounds better than a 705. You pay more you get more regardless of the market the 805 sounds better. Now if you compare across companies that will come down to preference of sound. Vandersteen has a sound - if you like that sound better you may like a Vandersteen at half the price of a B&W.

    I like the AN E/Spe HE over the sound of the $50,000 Vandersteen that's because IMO the way the the AN E reproduces music is the way I think it is supposed to be reproduced so regardless of the price of the Vandersteen it isn't doing it anywhere near as correct. That said if Vanderteen's sound is your thing then it still represents value since it truly and clearly is superior to their lower end speakers. Just as spending $50k on an AN E makes sense to people like me who get the AN E sound. But comparing them in isolation against others - $50k could seem completely out of place against XYZ speaker you hold dear at $8k.

    So start "within' the company line-ups first. As the price goes up the sound usually gets a lot better - that proves that the "more you pay the better the sound." At least this happens a lot of the time. The fact that a review like me may like a $3000 GF amp over an $8k McIntosh is somewhat interesting but chances are the $8k McIntosh sounds better than their $2k amp. So there is a house sound element here to consider.

  25. #50
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    The "house sound" is a good point. We finally agree on something The house sound of certain amps is why I have so much trouble believing people can't hear differences in DBT. Although something like Krell vs Levinson should be detectable it would certainly be more of a challenge than Krell vs Mac. Many find CJ and ARC totally different, so why would that change if blind folded.

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