Michael Fremer article follow up or Put together your audiophile system

[E-Stat]

One of the main things I learned in 4 years of learning to be an Electrical Engineer was, we don't know everything about electricity.

What a breath of fresh air! The smartest folks in my experience know what they don't know.

Many of the things I plainly hear with my system such as the difference cables and wires make were inaudible until my gear got good enough. This is not a "dig" at those who don't have the same gear, merely a statement of fact. It's quite simple, better gear means more revealing.

Amen.

Both of my Haflers have fully regulated power supplies. Consequently they are just about immune to AC noise and hash.

Luke Manley, Charles Hansen and Nelson Pass (among others) would likely disagree with that assessment. The VTL Siegfried uses a massive 800 joule regulated design, but can still benefit from aftermarket products. Luke readily admits such. I noticed that Erno Borbely's latest design looks similar to my Pass designed Threshold amp in that it uses massively cascoded output stages. See here.

Frankly I'm rather skeptical about some of the claims attributed to power cords. I won't issue blanket statements about their efficacy until I have tried a variety of them myself.

As were most engineers and enthusiasts like me - at least until they experimented a bit and listened.

rw

[hifitommy]

when you dont grasp something, and others seem to, you cant yell them out of existence. again-LALALALALA I CANT HEAR YOU still doesnt make it in public.

i heard the diffs in interconnects long ago and quite by accident. i am not fanatic in that regard but i will always have aftermarket ICs in the main signal path.

people whose opinion i have grown to respect over decades hear diffs in power cabling. i will try them when i have a power amp and preamp that accepts iec connections. my arc sp3a1(c) has a captive power cable as does my adcom 555II amp. i can wait. my nuforce pre/pro accepts them but its not in the main signal path of audio. its used mostly for video component switching.

i have a suggestion. it seems pixie wants to have THE LAST WORD. we should let him do so and then abandon this thread or have the moderators lock it. we are beginning to get down in the sandbox with him.

[Smokey]

One of the main things I learned in 4 years of learning to be an Electrical Engineer was, we don't know everything about electricity.We don't even know what it really is. We have tools and formula's that enable us to use it and describe it's properties. However, we still don't know what it is.

That might be true philosophically, but not true physically. We might not know what is , but we can with great accuracy predict its behavior. Given that we can virtually express any electrical properties mathematically give an idea of how predictable electricity is.

[pixelthis]

when you dont grasp something, and others seem to, you cant yell them out of existence. again-LALALALALA I CANT HEAR YOU still doesnt make it in public.

i heard the diffs in interconnects long ago and quite by accident. i am not fanatic in that regard but i will always have aftermarket ICs in the main signal path.

people whose opinion i have grown to respect over decades hear diffs in power cabling. i will try them when i have a power amp and preamp that accepts iec connections. my arc sp3a1(c) has a captive power cable as does my adcom 555II amp. i can wait. my nuforce pre/pro accepts them but its not in the main signal path of audio. its used mostly for video component switching.

i have a suggestion. it seems pixie wants to have THE LAST WORD. we should let him do so and then abandon this thread or have the moderators lock it. we are beginning to get down in the sandbox with him.

well, here is the LAST WORD then.
I dont care about what preceived "differences" you or anyone else "hears".
Ask most people in the early 1400's and they would swear up and down that the world
is flat, does that make the world flat?
PEOPLE are the worst "witnesses" in the world.
Most cant hear much beyond 11,000 -12,000 hz, and a lot of time hope and imagination
makes up a lot of the experience.
Ever see a movie where the ship (starship or otherwise) doesnt "feel" right?
Doesnt happen in real life, boilers mates go by instruments, as does the operators of
nuclear power plants.
You say you "hear" a difference (I dont) when you switch out a power cable, and as a reason you throw out a bunch of lame excuses like "RF" (none of which a power
cable usually picks up) and better sheilding, and a larger guage.
Its all silly silly nonsense as the national lampoon would say.
Your hearing was evolved to pick up sounds mostly from bears and the like,
its a surrvival tool, not a lab instrument.
Thats why during these arguments the pro side keeps mentioning what they "hear",
they have very little else on which to back their claims.
And that is ALL they are, really.
There is scant evidence that fancy audio cables are better than plain ones .
There is even less that power cables do more than part someone with his money.
You want one ? Fine, I am not the "cable" police, but I wont spend big bucks based on what someone "hears", I spent too much time in law enforcement, and I know just what a lousy witness the human animal can be.

[drmorgan]

We can’t presume people who ‘hear’ differences after changing power cords are crazy. Perhaps they have gear that’s built without some type of shielding that has been added into the cords? I still can’t explain or fathom why one would benefit from special cables to the speakers, unless the amplifier produces some sort of artifact that introduces noise that needs to be curtailed. But, I’ll pass on some history about a five-year battle over power quality even though I don’t know how that plays into what people claim to hear.

We had to call electricians frequently for a newly completed home. I eventually put a voltmeter to the outlets and called the Utility when I saw unusual fluctuations that I’d call mini spikes.

They placed a box at the meter with a large round chart but on a different meter (caretakers) and removed a special meter from that had a pair of hands which registered low or high voltage till ‘reset.’ It was rather antique like but could be seen from the road. I never recorded what it showed as I’d never given much thought about voltage variations till I was watching my meter. The utility removed it without explaining and later they picked up the box recorder.

The needle of the chart machine showed a smooth transition from 118 to 124 volts with no jags or sags evident. After it went ‘missing’ the utility called to report: ‘Power is fine, you have a bad voltmeter.’ I had lost some small motors, a compressor and solar collection pumps. Bulbs were not lasting and ballasts or ‘starters’ in some light units failed. I got a second voltmeter from the lab and put that in another leg and the fluctuations were obvious. As mentioned earlier if you turn on or off something you might see a sag (if your grounds at the panel are poor, if you are on the leg asking for more or reducing) on the breaker that’s involved. Otherwise you should NOT see fluctuations of more than 1 or 2 volts. We were seeing ten and slow recovery, yet fast falls

Later I would learn that their meter ‘averages’ and compresses what is charted on that machine. Thus it could be very high, very low and the pen would track an average thus any spikes or sags were not evident. They’re supposed to provide 114-124vac on each leg at your meter and 60 cycles. In authorized brownouts they may supply 10% less. They bill by KWh, so we’re not charged more (the fact some things lose efficiency such as Heat pumps, freezers or solar water circulation systems are not factors they consider). The fact that low voltage will increase heat does not change watts, but may depreciate insulation in some things, depending on designs and work factors. The fact that homes usually don’t include high work factor motors or other gear tends to make a home prone to losses.

I kept a worksheet of readings and photographed the obvious disparity a few times. Actual daytime voltage was 118-122, but each evening it went as low as 96 at least when I could ‘catch’ a read such as adding on a load. If a load was applied (say 100 amps.), I could drop it to 90. With normal power it might sag a volt, but this dropped and remained low. Important fact here. The power would drop if I put on 100 amp loads, and took a long time to come back up, perhaps to 106 and the bad things happen in the evening.

They countered that properly made devices have no difficulty with low voltage and most likely you just don’t have your meter on a good leg or calibrated properly. Further said that from a nominal 110v inside your home, you can sustain at least -10-20%. They told me to have my breaker panel looked into for bad grounds.

Nothing was wrong, the losses continued and when the element in a wall oven blew a hole in it and the probes in the near new water heater went out. I contacted other neighbors. Many were losing too and complaints were dealt with using that same recorder.

Eventually I learned we were on the end of a 19-mile run from the sub station. The line was built under rural electrification grants or low interest loans and never upgraded as homes were added along the run. If we had any hard rain or wind, we’d be out of power from 3-7 days as tree limbs touched and shorted. They’d been granted rate increases to modernize twice in 40 years (without doing it). We formed a committee to look into getting something done.

I brought a recording voltmeter from our shop and set it up to track voltage in real time. The results were looked more like earth quakes than the averaging method they used to assure us all was fine. Some 30 rolls of real time records showed not only seriously and long durations of low voltage from 5-10PM, but frequent surges and spikes in the period and the next morning too.

Being at the end of the 19 miles such events are amplified, like at the end of whip. Losses were high by the time our PUC set up a hearing and another year passed before boosters were ordered installed about 4 miles North and surge suppression placed at the end of the line.

Soon the utility replaced my transformer and then came to dig up the 640’ of buried aluminum for our 200-amp service (thankfully the meter was at the house rather than the pole or I’d have had to pay that underground cost). The underground had deteriorated due to overheating in low voltage!

Daytime voltage went up and nighttime was never again below what the PUC required (114v). Surges and spikes stopped, pumps and motors hummed and lights lasted.

The losses on my side for replacements and labor were into five figures. I filed a claim with the PUC. Eventually got a credit of $500 due to inefficiency. The period covered by my claim ran into the three-year statute of limitations. Lesson, file a claim as you file a compliant. It took five years to get a fix from when I noted the erratic voltage. Pick well-qualified electricians who will look to your supply issues and have you take a read in the evening when folks come home and turn things on to load the circuit you are supplied by.

Surges and spikes upstream from your home are managed in cities before they get to you on modern systems. The system serving us was old and overloaded due to the length and development that added several thousand users since designed.

Some surges are created in your own home by poor grounding and overloaded circuits or sharing with capacitor start devices. Avoid putting sensitive items on the same circuit with a microwave, motor or compressor. Poor grounding or too much drawing on a leg (unbalanced loads), all contribute to in home spikes.

We added some of the common power conditioning devices on so called sensitive gear like the fax and computers once power quality was known to be poor. I never lost any of that gear, but lost some of the units that switch to battery and develop their own power.

We never noticed a decline in volume or glitches from anything such as the sound, radios or computer gear. A few times we’d notice a shrink in the size of the TV picture (they all have the warm up circuitry to avoid long wait time), no losses to DVD’s, VCR’s, or so called sensitive items.

All the pumps for the solar water circulation and recovery, water heater elements, compressors and dozens of common bulbs and ballasts failed early.

None in the stereo gear went out. Devices that had relays showed point burning probably from low voltage.

Those who see artifacts on a scope are not seeing ghosts. Low voltage is more damaging than high and produces more heat. A common voltmeter will help to see if you get sags when you turn on and off other devices. A good practice is to trip all breakers yearly and tighten any screw to the buss and the breaker. Most wall outlets are strip and insert, but if you have screws make certain all are tight.

Conclusion: Some audio gear manages poor quality power and some don’t. The reason for this seems to be design flaws. Maybe your hearing is fine, maybe you’ve been influenced by things other than good engineering. I only know that we heard nothing from the system and most important.. the dogs did not.

[JoeE SP9]

Smokey:
That's what I said: "We have tools and formula's that enable us to use it and describe it's properties."

pixelthis:
If you don;'t care what others hear or don't hear why are you making such a big fuss? If you had better gear even you might hear the differences we hear. I know, you don't believe there is any gear that sounds better than yours. That's something else we have different opinions about. Please let those we have an opinion that differs from yours think differently in peace.

Any sailor in the 1400's knew the earth wasn't flat. When you see the top of the mast of an approaching ship first there can be only one reason. It was religious "dogma" that insisted the earth was flat. That same sort of "dogma" is what you are pushing on everyone else with your "I studied electronics for 3 years and know everything" attitude.

There is noise and hash that gets by the capacitors in power supplies. Just monitor the DC rails with a storage scope. I have done this and have seen noise and hash riding the DC. Are you now going to tell me it isn't there? Have you bothered to look, to confirm my claim?

I've already spent a tidy sum on Kimber Silver Streak IC's. They are worth the money and I recommend them unless they will be used in a RFI rich environment. So, I will try some "audio grade" power cables. I will monitor the DC supply rails in my amps looking for differences. I will also listen. If I see/hear a difference for the better I'll buy. I might buy because I like the way they look or just to piss you off. It's my money and I'll spend it however I please.

We are not "perps". We are not giving a witness statement to the "cops". Equating your experience with the criminal element and crime in general with what we say we hear or don't hear is an example of what's wrong with the "police" mentality. Cops think everyones a "perp" until proven innocent. Frankly, it's unfair and quite bigoted to think of us that way. None of us are under duress or any kind of strain. We are under no obligation to tell you what you think is the truth. If you don't like what we have to say don't join in.

BTW:
If you are ever in the Philadelphia area let me know. You could come over. We'd hoist a few listen to some music and maybe, just maybe you would hear a difference in cables. If not, who cares. LIGHTEN UP!!!!

[JoeE SP9]

What a breath of fresh air! The smartest folks in my experience know what they don't know.


Amen.


Luke Manley, Charles Hansen and Nelson Pass (among others) would likely disagree with that assessment. The VTL Siegfried uses a massive 800 joule regulated design, but can still benefit from aftermarket products. Luke readily admits such. I noticed that Erno Borbely's latest design looks similar to my Pass designed Threshold amp in that it uses massively cascoded output stages. See here.


As were most engineers and enthusiasts like me - at least until they experimented a bit and listened.

rw

While the Siegfried may use a fully regulated power supply as far as I know none of the others do. The lower voltage stages (input and driver) usually have regulated supplies. The output stages usually don't. Standard practice is to rectify the AC and use massive filtering. Looking at schematics will support this. It's very expensive to build a high current 50V (for example) DC regulator with no current limiting. When I built mine years ago each regulator (2 needed) cost more than the amp. It's kind of like building an amp to use as a power supply.

Unregulated power on the output stage may be a reason why aftermarket power cords make such a difference on power amps. That unregulated DC needs all the help it can get.

Cascoded output refers to the topology of the output stage not the power supply.

[E-Stat]

While the Siegfried may use a fully regulated power supply as far as I know none of the others do.

Both it and the S400 do. Read this.

Cascoded output refers to the topology of the output stage not the power supply.

That was just an aside. When I saw the schematic, it reminded me of the Stasis.

rw

[Feanor]

Both it and the S400 do. Read this.
...

rw

So we begin to understand why the likes of the Siegfried are in the megabuck category.

'Stat, it is less astonishing that you or Joe here fine differences in your ultra-resolving systems resulting from I/C and P/C changes. What is more surprising is that those with somewhat more modest equipment, (say in the range of my own), can confidently insist that they hear clear differences that must be very small by their natures.

I certainly envy such people, (for instance Mr Peabody), since they must be blessed with superb hearing. I'll admit once again that my hear isn't good: I hear nothing above 10 kHz (not at least at 80 dB). Also tinnitus is the bain of my existence; basically having a very "silent" piece of equipment is irrelevant to me.

Thus I never categorically state that difference don't exist. But I stay on recorded that I personally have never heard PC differences and rarely if ever I/C differences, (at least among low to medium cost examples I've heard). And I still feel very confident in recommending against people with entry to mid-level equipment paying a lot for these items beyond getting shielded wire -- for them it's simple: the money can be better spend elsewhere.

[Mr Peabody]

[QUOTE=JoeE SP9]While the Siegfried may use a fully regulated power supply as far as I know none of the others do. The lower voltage stages (input and driver) usually have regulated supplies. The output stages usually don't. Standard practice is to rectify the AC and use massive filtering. Looking at schematics will support this. It's very expensive to build a high current 50V (for example) DC regulator with no current limiting. When I built mine years ago each regulator (2 needed) cost more than the amp. It's kind of like building an amp to use as a power supply.

* This is why those products that claim to regenerate perfect clean power are not true or ultra expensive. It's basically another amp. Especially, one to produce enough current for a higher end amp.

[JoeE SP9]

Both it and the S400 do. Read this.


That was just an aside. When I saw the schematic, it reminded me of the Stasis.

rw

You're correct. I should have been more specific.

It's neither as difficult or as expensive to build fully regulated power supplies for tube amps.Tubes are voltage driven devices. High voltage low current regulation while not cheap, is not prohibitively expensive.

For SS lots of current is necessary. That's why large filter caps are required. The regulator is after the caps (more caps follow the regulator) and needs to pass high current with no limiting. That's the hard and expensive part. By definition a regulator will minimize any spurious noise. That's why I said a fully regulated SS amp may exhibit less benefit from an upgraded power cord.

I would expect any amp that has fully regulated power supplies to be less apt to be effected by hash and noise from AC. Theoretically any filtering or shielding provided by the power cord would be unnecessary because the regulator would reject any noise or hash.

This is not to say an upgraded power cord will not have an effect. It probably won't be as evident with a fully regulated power supply.

Below is an excerpt from a Nelson Pass white paper. It may help explain why full regulation in SS amps is so expensive.

Properly done, linear regulation has to go beyond the cursory
requirements of the amplifier ratings. The regulator should be capable
of ten times the current of the continuous output of the amplifier channel.
The regulator should be preceded and followed by large capacitances
with values comparable to those needed for unregulated circuits. The
transformer size still needs to be as big as that used in an unregulated
circuit.

[E-Stat]

What is more surprising is that those with somewhat more modest equipment, (say in the range of my own), can confidently insist that they hear clear differences that must be very small by their natures.

I think you may be shortchanging the resolution of your system. Most audiophiles would be very happy with your nicely driven Maggies. I think the determining factor (beyond a certain level of experience as to the sound of live music and a passion for listening - can you play back a piece of music in your head hearing all the parts?) is the type of music played. I'll readily admit the differences are indeed subtle. Not the "even my girlfriend who's not an audiophile heard the difference from another room" sort of thing. Most pop music won't reveal the differences due to compression that restricts both ends. I like using the bass concert drum to hear the difference in bass dynamics. Does the speed startle you? Can it raise the hairs on your arm? The other benefit lies at the other end of the dynamic spectrum. It is hearing subtle detail during the ppp sections. The first time I heard the Kimber Palladians in my system, JWC suggested we play Holst' Choral Hymms from the Rig Veda. There was a particular passage where the female vocalizations were more clearly heard. At a very low level. I always enjoy the experience of hearing some nuance in a recording that I had never been aware of before.

But I stay on recorded that I personally have never heard PC differences and rarely if ever I/C differences, (at least among low to medium cost examples I've heard).

I've been lucky in that I've had two mentors with rich musical backgrounds who helped teach me as to what to listen for. I think you would be surprised if you had some guidance.

I still feel very confident in recommending against people with entry to mid-level equipment paying a lot for these items beyond getting shielded wire -- for them it's simple: the money can be better spend elsewhere.

Agreed. I would, however, readily recommend a $100 power conditioner to them for multiple reasons. I use them on all my sources.

rw

[E-Stat]

Below is an excerpt from a Nelson Pass white paper. It may help explain why full regulation in SS amps is so expensive...

And why the latest versions of his superb amps have additional RFI isolation.

rw

[Feanor]

I think you may be shortchanging the resolution of your system. Most audiophiles would be very happy with your nicely driven Maggies. I think the determining factor (beyond a certain level of experience as to the sound of live music and a passion for listening - can you play back a piece of music in your head hearing all the parts?) is the type of music played.
....

I've been lucky in that I've had two mentors with rich musical backgrounds who helped teach me as to what to listen for. I think you would be surprised if you had some guidance.
...

Well, no disagreement. For my part I listen almost exclusively to classical music, so there is no lack of complexity by which to judge.

I have been into hifi for 37+ years and have a pretty good idea what to listen for -- OK, maybe I'd have an even better idea if I'd had mentors of the sort you mention. Motivation is part of it: beyond a certain point I simply don't care about such small differences as might exist. By this I mean I'm just not prepare to swap equipment in and out to do the comparision to confidently define the nature of the differences -- yes, this means I'm a less hardcore audiophile.

I recently commented on the differences because of a new DAC and a tube buffer that I acquired, (see the Digital & Computer forum), but I'm content to say that I had a vague impression of this-or-that without feeling need to prove it to myself much less insist on the validity for anyone else.

...
Agreed. I would, however, readily recommend a $100 power conditioner to them for multiple reasons. I use them on all my sources.

rw

I agree and use equipment by Tripp Lite and Belkin to provide RMI/EFI filtering and isolation as well as surge protection. I try to use shielded power cords on all my digital equipment and ferrite filters on all other power cords and non-digital I/Cs.

[Mr Peabody]

I didn't realize that my hearing ability was really out of the ordinary. I will be more thankful. I can't agree all differences are subtle either. Maybe between some high quality cables any difference could be subtle but what I hear between a stock cable and a higher quality cable like, Transparent, for instance, to my perception I would think any one could hear the difference provided they have reasonably good gear. I don't think the gear has to be high end either. I can hear differences on my Adcom system. The difference between the BJC and Transparent RCA's were clearly evident.

On power conditioning although to me the difference in sound quality was well worth the money, especially on my CD player and phono stage, but what I hear there may not be evident to those without experience listening to my system. Even if I could A/B it, I doubt if the average person would zero in on the background being quieter or pick up on the additional subtleties provided. But some of the differences in cables to me seem vivid. The reason I feel most any one could is some cables give obvious clues that I would think those closely listening ought to hear, such as a brighter high end or more punch or definition in the bass. Sometimes the soundstage is different, maybe one is flatter or wider, some are not as good at positioning and a background singer can actually be in a different place, not like all the way across the sound stage, but maybe some what behind the main singer vs off to the right some. I can pick up on these cues and still enjoy the music, in fact, some of this is what I enjoy, but maybe some people don't have the attention to detail opposed to a difference in hearing ability. I can't explain for any one why I am able to hear these things. One clue may be that most people are visual learners, I am not for the most part. any corporate teaching program will emphasize the need for props like slides, poster board, now the big thing is Power Point, I personally can sit and listen to a lecture, provided it doesn't put me to sleep, and retain what I have heard with out reading a page or looking at the presentation.

Feanor, with a limit to 10k it could help you focus on the range you have, more so. If you have consistent ringing that would certainly seem to be something that would mask some differences.

I hope that no one doubts what I post. Throughout my years hear at AR I have been consistent about my experiences. People can choose to believe me or not. Personally, if I didn't hear a difference I wouldn't spend the money either. What doesn't seem consistent to me is why a person might hear well enough to evaluate a piece of gear then not be able to hear any difference in cables. Possible the person weighs more than the sound, factors like looks, other's opinions etc. I don't have the answer, just the question. I mean if one can hear a difference between Krell and Levinson which in my mind they used to be pretty close, but if that small difference is really heard then they should be able to hear the difference in certain cables. Especially, stock to "boutique".

[JoeE SP9]

So we begin to understand why the likes of the Siegfried are in the megabuck category.

'Stat, it is less astonishing that you or Joe here fine differences in your ultra-resolving systems resulting from I/C and P/C changes. What is more surprising is that those with somewhat more modest equipment, (say in the range of my own), can confidently insist that they hear clear differences that must be very small by their natures.

I certainly envy such people, (for instance Mr Peabody), since they must be blessed with superb hearing. I'll admit once again that my hear isn't good: I hear nothing above 10 kHz (not at least at 80 dB). Also tinnitus is the bain of my existence; basically having a very "silent" piece of equipment is irrelevant to me.

Thus I never categorically state that difference don't exist. But I stay on recorded that I personally have never heard PC differences and rarely if ever I/C differences, (at least among low to medium cost examples I've heard). And I still feel very confident in recommending against people with entry to mid-level equipment paying a lot for these items beyond getting shielded wire -- for them it's simple: the money can be better spend elsewhere.

It's not how high you hear. It's how well.

In an earlier post I mentioned that the small differences I hear were inaudible until my gear got good. So, I agree with your recommendations concerning PC's and IC's for entry and mid level gear.

Both of my Haflers have fully regulated power supplies with cap and resistor replacement/upgrade on the input driver board, gain matched MOSFETS, toroidal transformers, doubled power supply capacitance, WBT's in and out, IEC connector and spiked feet. They don't sound much like the originals.

I recently wired a friends system with red and black Mogami IC's and speaker cables. It looks very nice sounds good and didn't cost an arm and a leg.

http://www.mogamicable.com/index01.html

[JoeE SP9]

I didn't realize that my hearing ability was really out of the ordinary. I will be more thankful. I can't agree all differences are subtle either. Maybe between some high quality cables any difference could be subtle but what I hear between a stock cable and a higher quality cable like, Transparent, for instance, to my perception I would think any one could hear the difference provided they have reasonably good gear. I don't think the gear has to be high end either. I can hear differences on my Adcom system. The difference between the BJC and Transparent RCA's were clearly evident.

On power conditioning although to me the difference in sound quality was well worth the money, especially on my CD player and phono stage, but what I hear there may not be evident to those without experience listening to my system. Even if I could A/B it, I doubt if the average person would zero in on the background being quieter or pick up on the additional subtleties provided. But some of the differences in cables to me seem vivid. The reason I feel most any one could is some cables give obvious clues that I would think those closely listening ought to hear, such as a brighter high end or more punch or definition in the bass. Sometimes the soundstage is different, maybe one is flatter or wider, some are not as good at positioning and a background singer can actually be in a different place, not like all the way across the sound stage, but maybe some what behind the main singer vs off to the right some. I can pick up on these cues and still enjoy the music, in fact, some of this is what I enjoy, but maybe some people don't have the attention to detail opposed to a difference in hearing ability. I can't explain for any one why I am able to hear these things. One clue may be that most people are visual learners, I am not for the most part. any corporate teaching program will emphasize the need for props like slides, poster board, now the big thing is Power Point, I personally can sit and listen to a lecture, provided it doesn't put me to sleep, and retain what I have heard with out reading a page or looking at the presentation.

Feanor, with a limit to 10k it could help you focus on the range you have, more so. If you have consistent ringing that would certainly seem to be something that would mask some differences.

I hope that no one doubts what I post. Throughout my years hear at AR I have been consistent about my experiences. People can choose to believe me or not. Personally, if I didn't hear a difference I wouldn't spend the money either. What doesn't seem consistent to me is why a person might hear well enough to evaluate a piece of gear then not be able to hear any difference in cables. Possible the person weighs more than the sound, factors like looks, other's opinions etc. I don't have the answer, just the question. I mean if one can hear a difference between Krell and Levinson which in my mind they used to be pretty close, but if that small difference is really heard then they should be able to hear the difference in certain cables. Especially, stock to "boutique".

Well said. If the lecture is given by a particularly good speaker I'm sometimes mesmerized. We all hear but some of us always pay more attention to what we hear. This is reflected in what we hear when listening to music.In my experience people who easily hear small changes others don't, tend to pay more attention to sound all the time. It's not hearing better or having "Golden Ears". It's the habit of not just hearing but always listening.

BTW: The Krell FPB series amps do nothing for me. The old KSA's and KMA's are the bomb!

[Mr Peabody]

I tend to agree on the older Krell, one of the things that I enjoyed was the pitch black background, it just had a nice feel with out being what people call "warm". The newer amps to me perpetuate their received criticisms of being cold and/or analytical.

I do that, "listen all the time". I will be some place, maybe getting a hair cut and make a comment and the person not have the slightest idea what I'm talking about and I'll say "on the radio" or "the TV". I just assume others listen too. Sometimes I'll ride with people and their car stereo will be off balance and I'll have to bring it to their attention. Or, the people that make me want to jump are the ones who will keep it on a station when it doesn't come in all the way. I'm like how can you stand that noise. That's weird, I think you just brought the obvious to my attention. I don't want to go off on a tangent but I have so many examples. Maybe you should look into being a therapist

[Mr Peabody]

JoeE, just curious, are you also more of an analytical type personality? I found out I am myself. I thought for the longest time I couldn't make decisions but the thing is I can't make a decision with out enough information to sway me to one direction. If I go to buy something like an appliance I know nothing about I guarantee the salesman will earn his money this day or I will go some place else. I want to know why this one is $50.00 more and is that difference something I'll need etc. If I can't get that info necessary to help me to one model over another then I just can't decide. And, I'm like that on many things in my life not just buying things. I know this by doing an exercise at work, it was supposed to teach us something. I forgot that main idea but it was like a light bulb coming on when it showed me to be an analytical thinker.

[JoeE SP9]

Mr Peabody;
If anything, I may be even more anal in this respect. On more than one occasion I've asked if I could change to a salesperson who knew the product. I always research any thing I buy including appliances. Although washing machine's don't interest me that much, when purchasing I usually know more about them than the salesperson.
For me paying attention spills over into the visual. I often say. "Did you see that"? The usual response is. "See what"? Paying attention to things is second nature to me. I've always wondered how people can go through life unaware of their surroundings.

[mlsstl]

I've always wondered how people can go through life unaware of their surroundings.

My experience is that different people notice different things. I can be quite observant about some things and clueless regarding others. It can be quite interesting sometimes to see how my wife and I each describe an evening after we've been out together.

And, we all have stories of some very bright person that can describe the minutest detail of one item but be completely unaware of something else. I've never met a person who is universally observant about "everything."

[JoeE SP9]

My experience is that different people notice different things. I can be quite observant about some things and clueless regarding others. It can be quite interesting sometimes to see how my wife and I each describe an evening after we've been out together.

And, we all have stories of some very bright person that can describe the minutest detail of one item but be completely unaware of something else. I've never met a person who is universally observant about "everything."

Being universally observant would probably lead to information overload. Even so, there are differences in people. Some observe more some less. I'm firmly in the more camp.

[Feanor]

Being universally observant would probably lead to information overload. Even so, there are differences in people. Some observe more some less. I'm firmly in the more camp.

I've know a few brilliant people, in my case mostly business executives.

They could always see the "big picture", but more remarkable in a way was their ability to "drill down" to discover and fully appreciate those fine details that were pivotal in the situation.

[Rudy Gireyev]

i have a suggestion. it seems pixie wants to have THE LAST WORD. we should let him do so and then abandon this thread or have the moderators lock it. we are beginning to get down in the sandbox with him.

That's certainly one way to handle it. Or perhaps bringing it back on topic would be another way.

Rudy

[02audionoob]

Around here, it seems the busiest threads are the ones based on a polar disagreement, whether it started out on that or not.