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  1. #1
    Clarity Registered Member
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    Question Is HDCD much Better?

    I have a Marantz 9200 thx receiver which has HDCD technology, with this Iím running a marantz 6000ose cd player which isn't HDCD.

    Is it worth purchasing a HDCD cd player or is it not a dramatic difference?

  2. #2
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    If your receiver supports HDCD then if you connect any CD player DIGITALLY to the receiver, you will decode HDCD. HDCD is a little extra info encoded into the bitstream. It only needs decoded once. No need to get a HDCD CD player AND a HDCD receiver.

  3. #3
    test the blind blindly emorphien's Avatar
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    As far as whether HDCD is better, most of the examples I've heard sound better than the average CD by a fair bit. How much of that is attributable to the encoding change and how much can be attributed to extra care in mastering the audio is beyond my knowing. A well mastered CD sounds pretty close if you ask me.

    I think one of the most important factors is having the right person making the disc, if they know their medium and how to use it then it will sound better (be it CD, SACD, HDCD, DVD-A).

  4. #4
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noddin0ff
    If your receiver supports HDCD then if you connect any CD player DIGITALLY to the receiver, you will decode HDCD. HDCD is a little extra info encoded into the bitstream. It only needs decoded once. No need to get a HDCD CD player AND a HDCD receiver.
    Your player doesnt have to support HDCD to? I know both has to for DTS.
    Look & Listen

  5. #5
    Suspended superpanavision70mm's Avatar
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    I have a few HDCD's on hand and all of them sound better than normal CD's to me. The main differences that I notice is certainly a slightly better level of clarity and the recording also seems to be a bit louder and fuller. While the differences might seem minor...isn't that what this is all about? The little differences make up alot of ground sometimes!

  6. #6
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shokhead
    Your player doesnt have to support HDCD to? I know both has to for DTS.
    In order to gain any perceived performance advantage from the HDCD feature, you need a HDCD decoder on EITHER your CD player or your receiver/processor (using a digital connection). The HDCD signal is encoded onto the CD's bitstream, so you need a HDCD decoder with whatever component you use at the digital end (i.e. the HDCD signal will not decode if you use a regular CD player and output the signal using an analog connection; it will simply output like any other CD player).

    As emorphien pointed out, a lot of differences can arise simply from greater care taken during the mastering stage. Unless you have access to the original master source and can do an A/B comparison, any speculation about the actual benefits of HDCD is just that.
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  7. #7
    Forum Regular stevenv's Avatar
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    Peoples, forget about HDCDs what a load of crap! I have heard tried and not convinced! It is all about how the CD is recorded not about how it is been processed… Some well recorded 16bit sound a lot better that so call HDCDs… just enjoy what you like and for get about those marketing geeks 

  8. #8
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    Shok-

    HDCD is kind of hidden in the redbook CD format. I can copy a HDCD to my hard drive and then burn it to a new CD and the HDCD is intact. So it really doesn't require any special hardware or ability to read a new format. If the player reads redbook CD's it reads HDCD, but to use those extra bits you need the HDCD decoding on the DA conversion.

    I own several HDCD disk, and with out exception they all sound terrific, better than average-to-good redbook. Some CD's aren't labled as such, and I've found myself thinking, "Wow, this sounds really good" only to then notice the HDCD indicator light on my CD player. Part of it, I'm sure is because anyone who is going to the effort to produce HDCD probably cares enough to master the CD better anyway.

    The only (entirely subjective and non-provable) obvservation about HDCD being superior as a format that I can make might be Beck. Some of his CD's have been HDCD (Midnight Vultures (not sure), Mutations, Sea Change). They sound terrific. His last, Guero, is not HDCD. And, although it is a great album, doesn't sound as good.

    But, rationally, as far as I undestand HDCD doesn't doesn't increase the sampling rate, but does increase the dynamic range from 16bit (65536 shades of loud) to 20 bit (1048576). I think TT said this should drop the noise floor. I don't know if a person could really distinguish all the finer shades of loud though.

    I'm a believer though.

  9. #9
    test the blind blindly emorphien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noddin0ff
    Some CD's aren't labled as such, and I've found myself thinking, "Wow, this sounds really good" only to then notice the HDCD indicator light on my CD player. Part of it, I'm sure is because anyone who is going to the effort to produce HDCD probably cares enough to master the CD better anyway.
    I've had the same thing happen many times. I'll have something playing and I'll look at my CDP and the HDCD light will be on for a disc that has no label.

  10. #10
    Suspended superpanavision70mm's Avatar
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    Thank you to noddin0ff and emorphien for both recognizing that there is a difference. I am not the only one that just notices this. I agree that HDCD's are certainly mastered better and do in fact sound better. The proof is in the pudding! Come on over and I'll play the MEET JOE BLACK sdtk or the KENNY WAYNE SHEPHERD LIVE ON HDCD's and you'll quickly see and moreover HEAR the difference!

    Fact of the matter is that if you can't hear a difference on your system than it's possible one of the three problems:

    Your system is not setup well or is inferior in other ways
    You are not decoding the true HDCD signal
    You have no ears

  11. #11
    Suspended superpanavision70mm's Avatar
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    would you mind telling me some of the titles that you have come across with the HDCD not labelled, but the player recognizes it as such. I only have one that has come up like that, which I can recall. OOhh I know the RONIN sdtk also had HDCD as well as the ALIEN RESURRECTION and both were suppose to be phenominal...wonder if they are still in print.

  12. #12
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    The two that come to mind are all smaller release disks

    Lavay Smith and Her Red Hot Skillet Lickers: Everybody's Talking 'Bout Miss Thing!
    Jacqui Naylor: Live East/West

    I think, but can't recall for sure that
    Mark Knopfler: Sailing to Philadelphia was also unlabled. I also don't recall seeing HDCD labels on the Beck albums either.

  13. #13
    test the blind blindly emorphien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superpanavision70mm
    would you mind telling me some of the titles that you have come across with the HDCD not labelled, but the player recognizes it as such. I only have one that has come up like that, which I can recall. OOhh I know the RONIN sdtk also had HDCD as well as the ALIEN RESURRECTION and both were suppose to be phenominal...wonder if they are still in print.
    I have a couple, one which is (a funky modern classical quartet) and another that isn't labelled. It's Days of the New, the red album. They had three albums all with the same name, differentiated mostly by color of the booklet or the crystal case. The red album sounds very good (all 3 albums are very well mastered) but the Red does sound a slight bit more dynamic I'd say which perhaps is because of the HDCD encode.

    It isn't labelled though.

    As far as I know of all my CDs those are the only two that have lit up the red HDCD light on my C542.

  14. #14
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    There is no way you will be able to tell whether HDCD sounds superior to Redbook unless you have the original master, and you compare the unprocessed output with the processed output under DBT conditions.

    My experience has shown that a well mixed and mastered CD can should every bit as good as a HDCD.encoded one.

    If you begin with good recording practices, and sufficent bit and sample rate (I always work with 24/96khz as a start) there is no need for HDCD processing at all. IMO with the ability of higher bit and sampling rates that can be used, HDCD is a waste of time.

    But, rationally, as far as I undestand HDCD doesn't doesn't increase the sampling rate, but does increase the dynamic range from 16bit (65536 shades of loud) to 20 bit (1048576). I think TT said this should drop the noise floor. I don't know if a person could really distinguish all the finer shades of loud though.
    Actually it depends on the music. The difference between 16bit and 20bit is much more audible on highly dynamic music. You would be very surprised how sensitive the ear is to slight volume changes. Especially in the midrange.
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  15. #15
    test the blind blindly emorphien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    My experience has shown that a well mixed and mastered CD can should every bit as good as a HDCD.encoded one.
    I think that's the most important point that needs to be made. Repeatedly.

  16. #16
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    There is no way you will be able to tell whether HDCD sounds superior to Redbook unless you have the original master, and you compare the unprocessed output with the processed output under DBT conditions.
    I think you nailed it! It's impossible to know what effect the HDCD processing has without a master source to compare it with. Problem with using HDCD-encoded discs to judge the value of the format is that there's no way to compare a HDCD-encoded version with a non-encoded version, unless that CD was previously released without the signal having gone through HDCD processing. And even with a re-release, other changes during the mastering process could have occurred and likely did because remastered CDs typically address problems that occurred with poorly done early transfers.

    Also, I read that the HDCD encoding can create distortion when the HDCD discs are played back through a non-HDCD CD player or processor. This further diminishes the comparability of using HDCD-encoded discs to identify any improvements that the format itself is responsible for.
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  17. #17
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superpanavision70mm
    Thank you to noddin0ff and emorphien for both recognizing that there is a difference. I am not the only one that just notices this. I agree that HDCD's are certainly mastered better and do in fact sound better. The proof is in the pudding! Come on over and I'll play the MEET JOE BLACK sdtk or the KENNY WAYNE SHEPHERD LIVE ON HDCD's and you'll quickly see and moreover HEAR the difference!

    Fact of the matter is that if you can't hear a difference on your system than it's possible one of the three problems:

    Your system is not setup well or is inferior in other ways
    You are not decoding the true HDCD signal
    You have no ears
    Question though is what are you comparing? Is it a case that those HDCD discs reflect better recording and mixing, or better care taken during the mastering process, or the HDCD processing itself? Without a master source or an otherwise identically prepared standard CD to compare with a HDCD-encoded disc, there's no way of isolating the difference that the HDCD process itself makes compared to other factors. Saying that your HDCDs sound good is no "proof in the pudding" that the HDCD processing itself is more responsible than other factors in the production and mastering.

    If someone can't hear the difference that HDCD makes, then the reason is pretty simple -- they lack the tools to do a valid listening comparison. Same thing goes for people who say that they can hear the difference.
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  18. #18
    Suspended superpanavision70mm's Avatar
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    don't be offended just because you can't hear a difference....it's not my fault. I never said that I know the exact reasons for why they sound better, but the difference is noticeable regardless. you have some serious issues whatever the case may be because you challenge me with just about every statement that I make and you need to find someone else to take out your nonsense against. In the meantime I'll enjoy HDCD's and DTS while you wallow in your patheticness.

  19. #19
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superpanavision70mm
    don't be offended just because you can't hear a difference....it's not my fault. I never said that I know the exact reasons for why they sound better, but the difference is noticeable regardless. you have some serious issues whatever the case may be because you challenge me with just about every statement that I make and you need to find someone else to take out your nonsense against. In the meantime I'll enjoy HDCD's and DTS while you wallow in your patheticness.
    Wow! All this hostility just because someone wants to inject a reality check into the very broad and unsustantiated generalizations that you've made on this thread. Must be something in the sun exposure this time of year in your particular latitude, because the skin you're showing on this thread looks awfully thin!

    If I'm making factual errors or you have substantive issues with the points I bring up, then by all means challenge them. But, your response certainly does nothing to validate the statements that you've made, and these personal attacks merely illustrate that you have nothing substantive to add that refutes my points. If you don't like being challenged for making generalizations that can't stand up to even the most rudimentary degree of scrutiny, don't make them in the first place. This is after all a public forum and we're all experts in our own mind, right?

    I'm not challenging your assertions that these HDCDs sound good to your ears, since that comes down to preference. But when you start listing off reasons why people might not hear the difference that HDCD makes, and reason #3 is "You have no ears," that's just pointless exaggeration, since you have no way of knowing the actual difference that HDCD creates without a baseline to compare it with.

    Even here, you're saying that "the difference is noticeable regardless." I'll simply ask again, compared to what? Do you have a HDCD title, an identically prepared CD of the same title, or the master source that you've compared? Obviously not.

    By making this kind of generalization you're basically asserting that HDCD is inherently superior to CD, yet you have nothing to compare it with other than different CD titles that have a myriad of other variables in play. In my book, that's an apples to oranges comparison, and hardly sufficient to start presuming things about a format and other people's systems or hearing ability. Sir Terrence works as a professional recording engineer and I'm more inclined to believe his conclusions about the value of HDCD relative to other production and mastering variables, since he actually has access to the high res master sources needed to actually compare a standard CD with a HDCD.

    Like I've said many times over the years on this board, making blanket statements about formats is pointless without knowing what you're actually comparing. If you want to believe that something sounds great just because of the format imprinted on the label, that's fine. But, that does not make it true, and certainly doesn't warrant launching into a whining hissyfit when someone doesn't take you at your word ("I hear it, therefore everything I believe about the causal effect is true!").

    I mean, I buy high res SACD and 96/24 discs, but the only conclusion that I will draw from listening is which specific titles I prefer to versions of the same title found on other formats. Without knowing anything about how the transfers were originally done, I have zero basis for concluding that any perceived superiority in the listening is due to the format and not other production and mastering factors. The difference between the points that you make and the ones I've made on other threads is that I will readily acknowledge the limitations of what conclusions I can draw from my listenings. You seem to believe more in the infallibility and extensibility of what your listenings tell you. After all, you're concluding that people who hear things differently than you do have inferior equipment and "no ears."
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  20. #20
    test the blind blindly emorphien's Avatar
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    I'm not saying there's definitely a difference. As others have said there's no real easy way to find that out without going beyond our means. I will just say that of the HDCDs I've heard (more than the few I own), they're all as good as the best CDs I've heard and certainly above average. If they're better it may not be that easy to tell without an a/b comparison and that's assuming all things were done to the nth degree in producing the redbook and the HDCD encode.

  21. #21
    Suspended superpanavision70mm's Avatar
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    First, I do have an example of a regular CD compared to an HDCD.....actually two. The first is the regular CD of Radiohead's HAIL TO THE THEIF vs. the HDCD version released in Japan. There is a definite difference, similar to the difference between the reg. version of CD's compared to the Gold editions that were issued by Mobile Fidelity or DCC. I can name hundreds of examples of those. I also have a HDCD of Queen's Greatest hits that sounds better than the regular CD, but does not sound better than the DVD-audio of the tracks that are on both. I am not comparing apples to oranges, but rather red delicious apples to not-so-great apples. That's a fact. My ears hear a difference as do all the people that I have played for over the years.

    I am not concerned with proving anything to you though because I know what it sounds like here and that's all that matters. You can believe whatever you wish and don't even get me started about your system or my system. The original question opened up on this thread was....Do HDCD's make a difference? I gave my opinion based on what I own and what I have heard....your opinion in this is a joke since you have no reference like others do on the matter. You just like to get involved in business that doesn't even belong in your direction considering you have no reference point. However, you also feel that everyone is entitled to your opinion and think that you are right about anything and everything....wrong again. I make comments sometimes in more of a joking manner, like many do on this site, which apparently go over your head. I said that people have 'no ears' in a joking way that means that they can't hear the difference because they have poor hearing. As people get older your hearing is diminished ...and you are older than I am my friend.... I would easily challenge you to a hearing test anytime anywhere!

  22. #22
    Suspended superpanavision70mm's Avatar
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    And one more thing...your DVD collection is a joke and not even worth posting on here with the laughable 'neverending' phrase.

  23. #23
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superpanavision70mm
    First, I do have an example of a regular CD compared to an HDCD.....actually two. The first is the regular CD of Radiohead's HAIL TO THE THEIF vs. the HDCD version released in Japan. There is a definite difference, similar to the difference between the reg. version of CD's compared to the Gold editions that were issued by Mobile Fidelity or DCC. I can name hundreds of examples of those. I also have a HDCD of Queen's Greatest hits that sounds better than the regular CD, but does not sound better than the DVD-audio of the tracks that are on both. I am not comparing apples to oranges, but rather red delicious apples to not-so-great apples. That's a fact. My ears hear a difference as do all the people that I have played for over the years.
    But, again they were not identically prepared, now were they? If that HDCD version of that Radiohead disc sounds that much better, fine. But, unless you know that the standard CD was prepared under otherwise identical conditions (i.e. same settings, levels, master source, and studio playback equipment), any number of other unknown factors outside of the HDCD encoding could just as easily explain what you're hearing. Try again.

    I can tell you that Mobile Fidelity's mastering rig makes a noticeable difference on their hybrid discs compared to other transfers (including Classic Records' 96/24 PCM transfers) because the CD and SACD layers sound more similar to each other than they do to other versions. This simply affirms the presence of other factors that can create differences in how something sounds.

    Again, you lack the means by which to make any kind of definitive conclusion about whether the format itself is the causal factor. No reason to get all testy just because someone points out the obvious. I'm not telling you that there are no differences between different disc versions, simply that you can't conclude that HDCD is the causal factor.

    Quote Originally Posted by superpanavision70mm
    I am not concerned with proving anything to you though because I know what it sounds like here and that's all that matters. You can believe whatever you wish and don't even get me started about your system or my system. The original question opened up on this thread was....Do HDCD's make a difference? I gave my opinion based on what I own and what I have heard....your opinion in this is a joke since you have no reference like others do on the matter. You just like to get involved in business that doesn't even belong in your direction considering you have no reference point. However, you also feel that everyone is entitled to your opinion and think that you are right about anything and everything....wrong again. I make comments sometimes in more of a joking manner, like many do on this site, which apparently go over your head. I said that people have 'no ears' in a joking way that means that they can't hear the difference because they have poor hearing. As people get older your hearing is diminished ...and you are older than I am my friend.... I would easily challenge you to a hearing test anytime anywhere!
    If my opinion is a joke, then I don't know what to make of yours, since you lack the necessary reference as well.

    Joking manner? Mmmm hmmm, that would explain the combativeness and defensive posturing whenever I point out problems with your generalities. Oh right, you were just joking when you said that people who disagree with you have "no ears." Glad to know that you've clarified yourself -- that's right, people who disagree with you simply have poor hearing! THANK YOU!

    And all this inneuendo about my system and my hearing, what does that have to do with anything that I've written or corrected you on? I thought so, just bunch of hot air in the absence of substance.

    Quote Originally Posted by superpanavision70mm
    And one more thing...your DVD collection is a joke and not even worth posting on here with the laughable 'neverending' phrase.
    OH! That hurts! You're calling my DVD collection a joke! That's just ssssoooooooo wrong!

    Is that the best you got, or are you committed to going off-topic just to avoid having to answer for all the B.S. that you're getting called out on? I mean if you're going to resort to personal attacks, at least come up with something original that hasn't already been tried on any number of other threads on this board over the years.
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  24. #24
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    Just one question.What player do you use for hdcd playback?

    bill

  25. #25
    test the blind blindly emorphien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superpanavision70mm
    And one more thing...your DVD collection is a joke and not even worth posting on here with the laughable 'neverending' phrase.
    gggrrrreeeeaaaaattttt

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