getting "better" SQ

**royphil345** · 06-29-2006, 04:21 AM

You just keep proving that when you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, you just make stuff up!!!!

You are a freak!!! Nobody has ever deserved a "virtual butt kicking" more than you!!!

Tell your "stories" somewhere else freak!!!

I'll say it one more time...

Any different load presented by a different freaking piece of wire is absolutely insignificant compared to the different loads presented by different drivers and crossovers.

THAT IS A FACT!!! AN ABSOLUTE FACT!!!

You can piss and moan all you want... tell your little lies... talk down to me...say crap about my mother...do your little "Tsk.. tsk.." (FREAK!!!)...

But, none of it will change that this is a FACT. None of it will change the FACT that you are a HUGE IDIOT for believing otherwise.

Nothing will change the FACT that you are a creepy, freaky idiot who makes ridiculous statements on the internet, then makes up stories and whines and cries alot to try and back them up.

THESE ARE FACTS THAT CAN BE SUPPORTED BY INFORMATION THIS THREAD. NOT THE CREEPY FANTASY STORIES TOLD TO YOU BY THE VOICES IN YOUR HEAD. CAN YOU TELL THE DIFFERENCE? IT APPEARS NOT.

GET HELP FREAK!!!

**royphil345** · 06-29-2006, 04:48 AM

Any different load presented by a different freaking piece of wire is absolutely insignificant compared to the different loads presented by different drivers and crossovers.

THAT IS A FACT!!! AN ABSOLUTE FACT!!!

**markw** · 06-29-2006, 05:04 AM

Originally Posted by royphil345

Any different load presented by a different freaking piece of wire is absolutely insignificant compared to the different loads presented by different drivers and crossovers.

THAT IS A FACT!!! AN ABSOLUTE FACT!!!

"Parasitic Oscillation
This is the major problem that plagues all solid-state amplifiers. Instability appears as bursts of oscillations (Mega Hz) on the music waveform. This causes RF interference and can easily destroy tweeters. This oscillation cannot be heard directly, but the result is sometimes head as a low level high-frequency swishing sound. Some audiophile amplifiers are inherently unstable. They can burst into oscillation simply by changing speaker leads. Amplifiers competing for higher specifications can exaggerate this problem.

An average amplifier increases the input signal to the speaker by approx 50 (Signal gain 1:50). The amplifier is initially designed with a gain of approx 20,000 (open loop gain). The open loop gain is reduced to approx 50 by the output being feed back to the comparator (negative feedback). The greater the 'open loop gain' before being feed back, the higher the specifications, but the less stable the amp becomes. Some audiophile amplifiers have open loop gains exceeding 1Million. Speaker outputs of all amplifiers have a damping circuit (Zobal) to help suppress parasitic oscillation."

http://www.lenardaudio.com/education/12_amps.html

**markw** · 06-29-2006, 05:17 AM

"3) Some designs of Power Amplifier (and in some cases a faulty amplifier) can produce parasitic oscillations or become unstable when used with some cables. Typically with loudspeaker cables that have a relatively high shunt capacitance. Most professional or commercial modern designs of amplifiers should not show this problem under any domestic circumstances if used as intended. Hence this should not be a problem. However in some cases it may occur, and will alter the performance of the amplifier, than thus may have an audible effect."

http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioM...kracables.html

**markw** · 06-29-2006, 05:32 AM

"One (potentially major) drawback ocurs if you own certain amplifiers that are unstable with capacitive loads. Typical multiple twisted pair cable has about 9nF per metre of capacitance with little resistance or inductance, which causes many amplifiers to go into parasitic oscillation. The fix is simple, wind twelve turns of wire around a pen and put it in series with the beginning of the cable. This tiny coil has far less inductance than even one metre of twin flex.

This description of the possible issues with speaker cables is the first I have seen that makes some sense from a technical perspective. There is sufficient evidence from my own measurements and those of many writers that there are indeed some detectable (and measurable) differences. With this in mind, and wanting to provide all the information I can, I have included this information - and this is the one area where properly sized and well made cables really does make a difference. If you own speakers that present a highly capacitive load, or have deep "notches" in the impedance curve, I would take this information seriously."

http://www.audiocourses.com/esp/cabl...htm#spkr-leads

**royphil345** · 06-29-2006, 05:34 AM

"may have an audible effect."

Notice it didn't say... And your amplifier may burst into flames because you used the wrong speaker wire???!!! BBBBWAAAAAAHHHHAAAAHHHHAAAAA!!!

Did the voices in your head say that???

Tsk... tsk.. BWWWWWWWAAAHHHHAAAAHHHHAAAAAAA!!!!

**markw** · 06-29-2006, 05:44 AM

Originally Posted by royphil345

"may have an audible effect."

Notice it didn't say... And your amplifier may burst into flames because you used the wrong speaker wire???!!! BBBBWAAAAAAHHHHAAAAHHHHAAAAA!!!

Did the voices in your head say that???

Tsk... tsk.. BWWWWWWWAAAHHHHAAAAHHHHAAAAAAA!!!!

When I use the term "smoking knees" that does not necessarily imply sparks and flame, but shutting down until the now defective output stage was replaced.

I must say, that's quite a "virtual butt kicking" you gave me here.

I can see where your ignorance in this matter has grown into full fledged denial, which can roughly be attributed to stupidity.

Oh well, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. At least the true depth of your knowledge and willingness to learn more about this hobby has been brought to light. I'm pretty sure that anyone following this thread now has a yardstick upon which to measure the validity of what you may say in the future.

I guess you know all you will ever need to know.

**royphil345** · 06-29-2006, 06:17 AM

"Oh well, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. At least the true depth of your knowledge and willingness to learn more about this hobby has been brought to light. I'm pretty sure that anyone following this thread now has a yardstick upon which to measure the validity of what you may say in the future."

IS THAT A FACT, FREAK?... OR IS THAT WHAT THE VOICES SAY??? AM I REALLY SUPPOSED TO CARE ANYWAY, YOU FREAKY, CREEPY, WEIRDO???!!!

FREAK!!!

Any different load presented by using a different freaking piece of wire is absolutely insignificant compared to the different loads presented by different drivers and crossovers. FACT

**markw** · 06-29-2006, 06:32 AM

Originally Posted by royphil345

"Any different load presented by using a different freaking piece of wire is absolutely insignificant compared to the different loads presented by different drivers and crossovers. FACT

Yep, you just go ahead and keep believing that. How's that blue pill taste, kid?

**royphil345** · 06-29-2006, 07:02 AM

"How's that blue pill taste, kid?"

BWAAAAHHHHHAAAAHHHAAAAAA!!!!!!! FREAKY GEEK!!! Go play with your video games and GI Joes!!!!

Any different load presented by using a different freaking piece of wire is absolutely insignificant compared to the different loads presented by different drivers and crossovers. FACT

**Resident Loser** · 07-05-2006, 05:30 AM

Originally Posted by markw

Yep, you just go ahead and keep believing that...

...it must be somethin' in the friggin' water !!! Either that or they've opened the gates of the idiot asylum...

For anyone who might be interested in the truth, even the self-avowed wire-guru, JR hisself, has stated on these very forums, that some wire designs can inter-react with less than optimally designed amplifiers, causing oscillations that can, and in some cases do (as was my case) send the amp to an early demise.

Early on, in the nascent days of the cottage industry of wire-isn't-just wire (late 70s? early 80s?) I purchased some Polk Cobras from my local snoot-shop, audio emporium...all I was lookin' for were some specific DTD pressings...yada, yada, yada...they looked cool, the conductors woven together looking like climbing rope and after all I was an audiophile on the cutting edge...I buys 'em, replace my zip with them, and one day, poof!!! a puff of green smoke, the scent of ozone and electrolyte spewed about the PCBs...As per the repair tech, lacking any other evidence, the wire was the most likely culprit...That amp, wired with 10ga zip works even today and my speakers have no crossover components...

So yeah, can wires do things?...you betcha...

jimHJJ(...mostly they can relieve you of spare cash...)

**royphil345** · 07-05-2006, 07:00 AM

I would have to believe there was a short somewhere. Bad insulation, connectors, speaker problem, etc... or that it was just a coincidence...

I will not ever believe that using different speaker wires can damage an amp.

Any difference in load presented by using different speaker wires is absolutely dwarfed in comparison to the difference in loads presented by different drivers, crossovers, and music.

How did you get from "lacking any evidence" to "most likely" to "you betcha'"?

**Resident Loser** · 07-05-2006, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by royphil345

I would have to believe there was a short somewhere. Bad insulation, connectors, etc... or that it was just a coincidence...

I will not ever believe that using different speaker wires can damage an amp.

...people relegate every electrical problem to the ubiquitous "short"...The Cobras were not short-circuited then and they still aren't...at least my Sperry VOM didn't show one, nor did my Simpson, nor did my Triplett ...neither analog nor digital-type showed anything out of the ordinary for a piece of wire...not a "dead" short, not a high-resistance one...no individual-conductor ground faults (nor a place for there to be one)...there was no manipulation of the wires, they just lay there...no mouse bites, no dog pee, no gnawing rug-rats...a short, is a short, is a short...generally speaking, they don't go away...wet can dissipate and the resistance change reflects that and they weren't wet. There was, however, a capacitive difference.

Do you believe wire can behave like a tone control? That smaller gauge wires can roll-off the high freqs? That as a result, folks claim (and rightly so) that some wires can can provide more bass? Even though the relationship is relative, wire can sound different and depending on the architecture can measure quite differently in the salient LCR parameters...Zip is different from twisted is different from CAT5...it's all in the TPI...weave a CAT5 with it's roughly 24 Twists Per Inch or CAT5e @32TPI into one of the on-line DIY recipes and you can easily do a mischief to some amps...fact, not fiction...

Question of the day: Any idea how a fuse works?

jimHJJ(...work on that a bit...)

**royphil345** · 07-05-2006, 09:49 AM

I'd imagine that many high-end interconnects could blow your amp sky high then, considering their effects are so greatly amplified.

I'm getting really worried now. How will I ever know if the WIRE I'm using is safe??? This is a frightening revelation indeed...

Wire with a "short" can test fine with a tester and arc at higher wattages.

**Resident Loser** · 07-05-2006, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by royphil345

I'd imagine that many high-end interconnects could blow your amp sky high then, considering their effects are so greatly amplified.

I'm getting really worried now. How will I ever know if the WIRE I'm using is safe??? This is a frightening revelation indeed...

Wire with a "short" can test fine with a tester and arc at higher wattages.

...realize we're talking speaker wiring and not ICs...

...realize the numbers required for arcing to happen? Think spark plug gaps and coil voltages...40kV to jump .035in.

jimHJJ(...ain't happnin' in your living room...)

**E-Stat** · 07-05-2006, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by royphil345

II will not ever believe that using different speaker wires can damage an amp.

Whether you believe it or not, it is true. The infamous Polk cables had a prodigious amount of capacitance coupled with low inductance that drove many a fine wide band amplifier nuts. Here is a link to an article Nelson Pass (then of Threshold) wrote in 1980. He specifically mentions having spoken with Matt Polk about this very issue.

http://passlabs.com/downloads/articles/spkrcabl.pdf

While the Polk achieved exceptionally low inductance, it did so at the expense of the high capacitance. There are many designs available today that do so without such a huge tradeoff. For example, my JPS Labs speaker cables have about a third the inductance of zip as well as offering both lower resistance and lower capacitance.

rw

**royphil345** · 07-05-2006, 10:45 AM

LOL!!!...

Realize we're talking about audio cables... not spark plugs!!! (to almost quote someone I know) WAY less relevant than mentioning ICs!!!

The voltages sent to spark plugs are necessary to send a spark HOT ENOUGH for the most efficient operation of an internal combustion engine.

I've seen many cases of arcing / shorting in phone wires resting on basement floors. Wires can also arc to each other in a multi-conductor cable. Think you're dealing with less wattage there than what can go through a speaker cable.

Maybe I'd be willing to believe that a particularly poorly-designed cable with exceptionally high capacitance could cause some problems. My main problem on this thread was this statement: "speaker cables with dangerously low inductance, which seem to be all the rage lately." A statement that suggests high-end cable manufacturers are fools, blowing up amps left and right. And that low inductance in a cable is "dangerous".

**Resident Loser** · 07-05-2006, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by royphil345

LOL!!!...

Realize we're talking about audio cables... not spark plugs!!! (to almost quote someone I know) WAY less relevant than mentioning ICs!!!

The voltages sent to spark plugs are necessary to send a spark HOT ENOUGH for the most efficient operation of an internal combustion engine.

I've seen many cases of arcing / shorting in phone wires resting on basement floors. Wires can also arc to each other in a multi-conductor cable. Think you're dealing with less wattage there than what can go through a speaker cable.

...of a little knowledge being dangerous...

Like 10-18VAC. "A" batt, "B" batt or 48VDC or 105VAC@30Hz? Hey, Watson...were your 25prs. crushed...were the Amphenols wet after a flood or floor washing? Were your connecting blocks full of roaches and their detritus? Did you ever test your phone cables with a KS (or it's equivalent) meter? See the needle swing around at midscale? Whatcha' got there is an escape or a high-resistance S/C...Did it cause pre-trips? False holds? Xtalk? Other FEMF and/or grounding conditions?

Liquids conduct, without a doubt...the voltage/current required to jump an air-gap is dictated by the laws of physics...

I've been doing telecom and data installs and repairs probably longer than you've been on the planet...don't try to dazzle me with your technical brilliance...

jimHJJ(...probably couldn't find a cross in church...you're like a 51A lamp on three-volts...)

**royphil345** · 07-05-2006, 11:49 AM

"don't try to dazzle me with your technical brilliance..."

Likewise...

And your "spark plug" comment was absolutely ridiculous for someone supposedly sooo knowledgeable...

"you're like a 51A lamp on three-volts..." ...........You're like a dork!!!...LOL!!! Bet you don't talk like to people's faces. Do you dork???

You know where you can put your spark plug... Right Sparky???

**E-Stat** · 07-05-2006, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by royphil345

My main problem on this thread was this statement: "speaker cables with dangerously low inductance, which seem to be all the rage lately." ...And that low inductance in a cable is "dangerous".

Agreed. Simply not true. The most neutral cables in my experience share low inductance and do not blow up amps. Mr. Polk (hardly a "high end" guy) simply screwed up back then.

rw

**Resident Loser** · 07-05-2006, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by royphil345

"don't try to dazzle me with your technical brilliance..."

Likewise...

And your "spark plug" comment was absolutely ridiculous for someone supposedly sooo knowledgeable...

"you're like a 51A lamp on three-volts..." ...........You're like a dork!!!...LOL!!! Bet you don't talk like to people's faces. Do you dork???

You know where you can put your spark plug... Right Sparky???

...was try to reduce the voltage/airgap ratio to a simple analogy most guys would understand...apparently not simple enough...

Face-to-face? No actually I'm much worse in person...no feeble software censor to contend with...or pencil-necked geeks.

You can either put up or shut up...why not answer even one of the questions I posed...oh, yeah no answers...just lotsa' Watts...

Dork? Is that the best you can come up with...now you have three of us telling you the same thing, but of course, you are right...

BTW, a 51A is a 10volt lamp, not particularly bright are you?

jimHJJ(...Like a Chinese phone book, you're just full of Wong numbers...)

**royphil345** · 07-05-2006, 03:50 PM

"...As per the repair tech, lacking any other evidence, the wire was the most likely culprit..."

Oh yeah... and I just remembered that I also tested the wires using every method known to modern science...

Right!!!...

"...realize the numbers required for arcing to happen? Think spark plug gaps and coil voltages...40kV to jump .035in."

Oh... I wasn't using the spark plug analogy to try and prove how much voltage is required to cause arcing...

Right!!!... Sparky...

And that other guy with his "I used to sell Niam and..."........................Oh yeah.....Naim..........That's what I meant..........

Obvious lies and positively the dorkiest smarta$$ comments I've ever heard in my life!!! (almost beyond belief)... Why does everyone who's trying to tell me that high-end wires will destroy my amp have nothing more to offer?

GOOD question...

Is this "information" traveling in certain circles of people with a similar mindset? (rude, lying, know-it-all internet dorks who believe everything they read and keep squirming and twisting the facts to try and win an argument?)

Heck... I might even believe you guys if you didn't lie so much!!!

**markw** · 07-05-2006, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by E-Stat

Agreed. Simply not true. The most neutral cables in my experience share low inductance and do not blow up amps. Mr. Polk (hardly a "high end" guy) simply screwed up back then.

rw

Have you checked out AA's CA lately?

**E-Stat** · 07-05-2006, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by markw

Have you checked out AA's CA lately?

Translation please. There is a sum total of ONE post about inductance in the past two weeks.

rw

**royphil345** · 07-05-2006, 10:53 PM

The whole internet audio community is abuzz!!!

Amps blowing left and right because of improper WIRE!!!

Wire with "gasp" LOW INDUCTANCE.. that are "shudder" ALL THE RAGE RIGHT NOW!!!

I can't believe this is really happening!!!

The Bible warned of this!!!

The natural laws have been shaken!!!

Once innocent and benign wires and cables will now destroy our stereos!!!

OH!!!... The humanity!!!

Run for yer' lives!!!

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