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  1. #51
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Translation please. There is a sum total of ONE post about inductance in the past two weeks.

    rw
    do a search on "zobel" over the past few months or years.

  2. #52
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Get yer quotes right, liar.

    Quote Originally Posted by royphil345
    And that other guy with his "I used to sell Niam and..."........................Oh yeah.....Naim..........That's what I meant..........
    ,
    Where did I ever say I sold naim? You sure do assume much, child. There are other ways for him to be a "client", ya know. ...like, say, we ran generic in-wall wires that worked with his toys but his after markets didn't when he upgraed his amp and came to us to solve his problems?

    You don't think too good when the blood covers your eyes, do you?

    Tsk...Tsk... first, you stoop to spell checker, the intrernet sign of impotency, then you call three guys who were playing with these toys since before you were even conceived liars, and now you stoop to misquoting. ...getting a bit desparate, eh?

    Gotta say, RP, you're lookin' like damaged goods here.

    Poof! What's that sound? Why, I'd say it's royphil345's reputation going up in smoke!

    Markw (lovin' Nashville...)
    Last edited by markw; 07-06-2006 at 05:58 AM.

  3. #53
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    do a search on "zobel" over the past few months or years.
    You consider "recently" as spanning a period of years? Ok.

    In the past two months, there were about three threads about Zobels. And...?

    rw

  4. #54
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    Well brighteyes...

    Quote Originally Posted by royphil345
    "...As per the repair tech, lacking any other evidence, the wire was the most likely culprit..."

    (1)Oh yeah... and I just remembered that I also tested the wires using every method known to modern science...

    Right!!!...

    (2)"...realize the numbers required for arcing to happen? Think spark plug gaps and coil voltages...40kV to jump .035in."

    Oh... I wasn't using the spark plug analogy to try and prove how much voltage is required to cause arcing...
    Right!!!... Sparky...

    (3)And that other guy with his "I used to sell Niam and..."........................Oh yeah.....Naim..........That's what I meant..........

    (4)Obvious lies and positively the dorkiest smarta$$ comments I've ever heard in my life!!! (almost beyond belief)... Why does everyone who's trying to tell me that high-end wires will destroy my amp have nothing more to offer?

    GOOD question...

    Is this "information" traveling in certain circles of people with a similar mindset? (rude, lying, know-it-all internet dorks who believe everything they read and keep squirming and twisting the facts to try and win an argument?)

    Heck... I might even believe you guys if you didn't lie so much!!!
    (1)...you can believe whatever you want...being one who always investigates and researches cause and effect (it must be the repairman in me), when my amp went south I did run some basic tests...Using digital and analog VOMs doesn't quite qualify as "...every method known to modern science..." Didn't have (or rely on) the interweb to run to crying "oh, what happened?"...that's how you learn...And it's all anecdotal...whether it's "My wife heard the difference coming up the drive" or the repair tech's comments...All FYI and FWIW...

    (2)...I can make a spark with a 9VDC battery...WTF does that prove? Short out the terminals with a screwdriver...do it in the dark, it's more impressive...The point is the conductors are touching, there is no insulation, the 9Volts isn't jumping an air-gap...sparks is way different than arcing; it would seem your lingustic skills are on a par with your technical ones i.e. non-existent..., and do try to recall, you brought up the subject of arcing (AKA jumping said air-gap) in the first place as an example of your "expertise" in such matters...Arcing (due to the voltages involved) would leave evidence: burned insulation, conductor damage, that sort of thing.

    (3)...markw never said he sold anything, mis-spelled or otherwise, now did he?

    (4)...Who said anything of the sort? Try to keep up now, we'll take it r-e-a-l s-l-o-w...there are amps that react badly to certain commercial offerings and some DIY recipes...that's what was said...but you, in your profoundly myopic and defensive mindset, read it as an attack on after-market wiring in general...If such wiring blew-out every amp, there would be no market for them...they all don't do such bad things but, some of us realize they don't really do very much good either...wire is simply wire, anecdotal accolades notwithstanding. Who gives a r@t's @$$ how you spend your money or what you think you hear...I surely don't.

    BTW, this thread isn't even about wire per se, it's about an outboard device that claims to rectify an internal "problem" re: feedback loops in amplifiers...hence the Zobel/terminating network reference and their use with certain wires with certain parameters.

    You may wanna' take notes next time, you might actually learn something...

    jimHJJ(...but I sorta', kinda' doubt it...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  5. #55
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    At my age, yeah.

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    You consider "recently" as spanning a period of years? Ok.

    In the past two months, there were about three threads about Zobels. And...?

    rw
    The fact that is still pops up says that it's still an issue that's often overlooked. Perhaps not as pressing as death and taxes, but it's still an issue to be considered when designing cables.
    Last edited by markw; 07-06-2006 at 07:16 AM.

  6. #56
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    Ain't [I]that[/I] the truth...

    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    ...At my age yeah...
    ...it's all relative, eh? I still think of my pristine '91 Cherokee as a "new" vehicle...and if I think of something that happened a year ago chances are it was more like two or three years ago...Rule of thumb: whenever estimating a time frame, double it...

    jimHJJ(...looks like you have your own albatross to contend with, eh?...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  7. #57
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    A big hmmm...

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Mr. Polk (hardly a "high end" guy) simply screwed up back then.rw
    ...there was a time when Polk (prior to the mass-market days) was the darling of the "in" crowd..."...screwed up..." or simply not confronted with intolerant amps at the time?

    BTW, FWIW I bought those cables at a high-end shop who, in addition to Polk, also sold B&W and original Mark Levinson gear...they swore by 'em as the next big thing...

    jimHJJ(...caveat emptor...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  8. #58
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Wow!!!

    What a great thread. I've learned so much today. Thanks for the cool read.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  9. #59
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...there was a time when Polk (prior to the mass-market days) was the darling of the "in" crowd..."
    Really? So, what high end products did they make?. Don't get me wrong since I use Polk speakers in my HT system. Just have always considered them good stuff, not exceptional.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ..or simply not confronted with intolerant amps at the time?
    Bring on all those great sounding "intolerant" amps! I'll go with cable companies who achieve low inductance AND low capacitance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...they swore by 'em as the next big thing.
    Well, there is a benefit with using for low inductance cables with speakers like mine exhibiting low impedance at high frequencies. They just got the high capacitance thing wrong.

    rw

  10. #60
    Forum Regular royphil345's Avatar
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    Blah, blah, blah...

    squirm

    lie

    same stuff

    If I misunderstood you're association with Niam.... oh......... I mean Naim...

    Why didn't you say so when it happened?

    Or are you just going through this thread trying to find any way possible to make yourself look like a little less of a lier.

    Ain't gonna' work... Sparky... LOLAS!!! (laughing out loud at sparky)

    RUN FER' YOUR LIVES... IT'S THE WIRES!!!!!!!!!!!

  11. #61
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    One current cable that warns of possible problems with amps is Goertz Alpha-Core speaker cables. Their larger cables have a low impedance load that are rated at 2.5 and 1.7 ohms. They claim that a number of solid state amps can oscillate into a low impedance load and offer an RC link to be used in such cases.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
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  12. #62
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    Going back...

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Really? So, what high end products did they make?. Don't get me wrong since I use Polk speakers in my HT system. Just have always considered them good stuff, not exceptional.rw
    ...20-25 yrs ago, Polk's were considered to be of exceptional quality comparing well with the likes of Dahlquist and B&Ws at entry-level pricing...Again this is prior to the Matthew's "sell-out" to adverts and the BB and CC type of mass-marketing...

    jimHJJ(...fickle bunch dem audio-types...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  13. #63
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    Oh...

    Quote Originally Posted by royphil345
    Blah, blah, blah...

    squirm

    lie

    same stuff

    If I misunderstood you're association with Niam.... oh......... I mean Naim...

    Why didn't you say so when it happened?

    Or are you just going through this thread trying to find any way possible to make yourself look like a little less of a lier.

    Ain't gonna' work... Sparky... LOLAS!!! (laughing out loud at sparky)

    RUN FER' YOUR LIVES... IT'S THE WIRES!!!!!!!!!!!
    ...do be quiet you mindless dolt, the adults are talking now...

    jimHJJ(...we'll let you know when the cartoons are on...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  14. #64
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    And just fer grins...

    Quote Originally Posted by royphil345
    ...If I misunderstood you're association with Niam.... oh......... I mean Naim...

    Or are you just going through this thread trying to find any way possible to make yourself look like a little less of a lier.
    ...since you are so quick to point out spelling errors and are so adroit at lexicological legerdemain, it's the adjective your as in the sense of possession, not the contraction for you are and it's liar not lier...the former being a fairly common error...the latter just plain stupid...

    jimHJJ(...and we all had such high hopes...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  15. #65
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael
    One current cable that warns of possible problems with amps is Goertz Alpha-Core speaker cables. Their larger cables have a low impedance load that are rated at 2.5 and 1.7 ohms. They claim that a number of solid state amps can oscillate into a low impedance load and offer an RC link to be used in such cases.
    If you visit their website, they are all about low impedance and low inductance. They kinda ignore the role of capacitance and thus have rather high numbers. Here are a few representative cable specs per foot:

    Cable-------------------------Inductance----------------Capacitance--------------Resistance

    Goertz-------------------------0.010 uH---------------------1500 pf----------------------0.0011 ohms
    JPS Labs---------------------0.060 uH------------------------20 pf----------------------0.0020 ohms
    Valhalla-----------------------0.096 uH------------------------11 pf-----------------------0.0026 ohms
    12 ga zip---------------------0.210 uH------------------------24 pf-----------------------0.0034 ohms

    rw

  16. #66
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    If you visit their website, they are all about low impedance and low inductance. They kinda ignore the role of capacitance and thus have rather high numbers. Here are a few representative cable specs per foot:

    Cable-------------------------Inductance----------------Capacitance--------------Resistance

    Goertz-------------------------0.010 uH---------------------1500 pf----------------------0.0011 ohms
    JPS Labs---------------------0.060 uH------------------------20 pf----------------------0.0020 ohms
    Valhalla-----------------------0.096 uH------------------------11 pf-----------------------0.0026 ohms
    12 ga zip---------------------0.210 uH------------------------24 pf-----------------------0.0034 ohms

    rw

    Those specs are for their 7 guage cables. I use the MI1 which has less capacitance and has not caused any trouble with either my Rotel or CA 640A int. amp. I did read a review on a new Rotel where it had a melt down when the reviewer was using the MI2 cables.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
    Digital
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  17. #67
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael
    Those specs are for their 7 guage cables. I use the MI1 which has less capacitance and has not caused any trouble with either my Rotel or CA 640A int. amp. I did read a review on a new Rotel where it had a melt down when the reviewer was using the MI2 cables.
    Gotcha. The capacitance drops to a third of that, but the impedance increases.

    rw

  18. #68
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    The fact that is still pops up says that it's still an issue that's often overlooked.
    Fine. From what JM says, Goertz makes mention of its properties when using certain amps and offers a Zobel if necessary.

    It would be interesting to hear if lowering the inductance by another factor of four or so (over zip) would benefit my electrostats. My tube amps would likely have no trouble with the capacitance.

    rw

  19. #69
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    Whoa

    Near the front of this thread, I said low inductance was not a danger to amplifier stability. I and I don't think anyone else ever said high capacitance was not a problem. It is, specially for transistor amps with bandwidths up into the megahertz.

    To re-iterate, a low inductance cable is the same as a short cable or no cable, it will not endanger any reasonably designed amplifier. On the other hand a high capacitance cable that does not also have high inductance (to partially offset the problem) can make amplifiers oscillate. This will make them sound awful, if it causes them to blow up, the amplifier is poorly designed (see magazine reviews where the amplifier output waveform is displayed at 1 or 10KHz while driving a 1.5 uF load, most of them ring. Ringing is OK under these conditions as long as the ringing waveform is damped, i.e gets smaller over time). ps. This is why reviews with numbers, charts and graphs are important, they may not tell you how it sounds, but they will tell you if the design is competent.

    Badly desinged amplifiers can sound great, but you never know what change no matter how small will suddenly change their character. Suddenly this exotic hand built one of a kind amplifer doesn'tt sound great any more, did the tubes age?. Maybe the electrolytics lost 40% of their value due to age (yes, they do this). Did the cheap PCB absorb moisture? Did someone move a speaker cable so the magnetic field interacts with the amp. Stay away from this stuff unless you enjoy the endless battle to recover the way it once sounded a week ago, briefly between 10:30 and midnight..

  20. #70
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermanv
    This will make them sound awful, if it causes them to blow up, the amplifier is poorly designed (see magazine reviews where the amplifier output waveform is displayed at 1 or 10KHz while driving a 1.5 uF load, most of them ring.
    My comments about good sounding amps was related to the Nelson Pass article. The first Threshold 400As (circa 1978) blew fuses when the Polk cables first surfaced. He then made some changes to prevent that from occurring. That event, however, was over two decades ago.

    Blowing up is another thing altogether!

    rw

  21. #71
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    That's right, you just keep diggin' that hole deeper...

    Quote Originally Posted by royphil345
    Blah, blah, blah...

    squirm

    lie

    same stuff

    If I misunderstood you're association with Niam.... oh......... I mean Naim...

    Why didn't you say so when it happened?

    Or are you just going through this thread trying to find any way possible to make yourself look like a little less of a lier.

    Ain't gonna' work... Sparky... LOLAS!!! (laughing out loud at sparky)

    RUN FER' YOUR LIVES... IT'S THE WIRES!!!!!!!!!!!
    Pretty soon you're gomna need oxygen to breathe.

    WTF are you babbling about now? Your* inability to comprehend what I wrote in post 13? ..or are you trying, unsuccessfully, I might add, to weasel out of making yourself a laughing stock here.

    *Note it's use here to indicate a possesive. "You're" is a contraction of "you are"

    And, while we're at it, I think the word you were grasping for is "liar", not "lier"

    Markw (Live from Nashville. You really should stop digging now... a smarter person would have seen how stupid their posts made them look and cut their losses and simply stopped making it worse long ago, but not you.)

  22. #72
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    My comments about good sounding amps was related to the Nelson Pass article. The first Threshold 400As (circa 1978) blew fuses when the Polk cables first surfaced. He then made some changes to prevent that from occurring. That event, however, was over two decades ago.

    Blowing up is another thing altogether!rw
    I have been designing things for about 30 years, and guess what, occasionally I get it wrong. The issue here is what a reputable manufacturer does in this case. 1. He fixes it. 2. He offers some deal to previous customers to offset any problems the error may have caused.

    I seem to remember the venerable Audio Research going through a phase where they had problems, they dealt with them and kept their position in the industry, others have screwed up as well. I think Bill Gates and Windows basically legitimized the idea that pretends that having customers pay for companies mistakes is OK.

  23. #73
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
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    Now THIS is the AR I remember.

    Ahhh...good times...

  24. #74
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    holy sh** I never thought I would 'create' such a thread!! sorry I wasn't bothered to get into all of it. Nice job

  25. #75
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspeed
    "If you can leave black marks on a straight from the time you exit a corner till the time you brake for the next turn, then you have enough horsepower." Mark Donohue
    If you feel like you're in control while driving your race car, then you don't have enough horsepower - Michael Andretti

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