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  1. #151
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    Great write up Adam, thanks for sharing.

  2. #152
    Suspended atomicAdam's Avatar
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    Sonist - deHavilland - Wireworld - Glow Audio



    "Why have pot when you can have heroin?" - the owner of the tape reel

    Yeah jackass, you know the point of a free sample is that people will come back for more, but when you have a one of a kind you kind of defeat the purpose!

    This was by far the most emotionally engaging music I have ever heard. I got into the room early Friday morning and had center seat for a good 20min. The Duke Ellington reel that was played made my gut move. I was somewhere between wanted to cry and wanted to commit seppuku. It wasn't loud, it wasn't big, but it is was by far the best thing I think I've ever heard. Granted, I wouldn't want to listen to rock/pop/modern music on it. But I can't imagine ever hearing jazz again without wishing I had this set up.

    On the flipside, when I went in again on Saturday the Glow amp had been replaced with some more powerful deHavilland (i believe) amplifiers. I guess the 5W into 95db sensitive Sonist Concerto 3 floorstander wasn't cutting it.

    Sonist Room 2



    These are another pair of Sonist speakers. They aren't on the Sonist website yet. They are being driven by another Glow Audio amplifier and I believe a Cambridge Audio $600 CDP. I'm guessing the Azur 650 or similar. I'm not really sure what to say about this room. The sound was distorted in the lows and mids when the sound was peaking. I am guessing that the amplifier was being over driven. Then again, there were about 4 older guys sitting in the room saying how wonderful the sound was when I was hearing distortion, so I wonder if my ears decided to take a nap while I was visiting this room. I didn't stop back unfortunately to see if anything had changed. I'm going to assume that these probably would have sounded better with a more powerful amplifier or at a quieter volume like they did in the other Sonist room with the tape reel.

  3. #153
    Suspended atomicAdam's Avatar
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    Wadia Digital

    Sorry, I didn't get the name of the bookshelf speakers being used, maybe someone can let us know.





    I think Wadia might be onto something with this set up. I heard the 171i iPod transport with a 151 PowerDAC. Cost is somewhere around $600 (if I remember correctly) for both the 50Watt Integrated Power Amp/DAC and the iPod Transport. I'm sorry I don't know the speakers, I'm sure someone here does. Everyone in the room I was in was very pleased with the sound, and I have to say, for the cost and the size (i really love how dang small this set up is) it was very pleasing. Now, comparing it to some higher cost components, the sound was clear and bass was extended and the sound was very solid. It was present in the room and not airy or dispersed. The problem I had with it was it sounded too clean and there was little depth to the sound. For an analogy to help explain, it was like seeing a photo of the Grand Canyon, but if you've never been, you don't really get the feel for how amazing it is. Most of the folks in the room were talking about the system and were pleased, but they also agreed with my analogy. But, lets face it, for the iPod generation this maybe one more tool and an affordable price point that can get them into hi-fi.

    The speaker, I think, they were pretty bling bling for bookshelfves if I remember correctly. They are great looking and had a pretty trick grill. The lack of depth in the mids made the music a bit too clinical for me, but the highs weren't piercing in the least and the lows were present and engaging.

    I can say I was impressed with this set up, but it is something I'd never have in my house. Its sound is the complete antithesis to what I love about vinyl.

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    I think enough has been said about this room already. I would just add, they were at least playing something that had been recorded w/in the last 15 years. A brother/sister guitar duo with some amazing chops. They were doing a cover of Metallica's Call of Ktulu (i think - honestly so many Metallica songs from Ride the Lighting and Master of Puppets sound so similar when done acoustically) - Anyways - great guitarist.

    more to come later...

  4. #154
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    Any one know what happen with Wadia after they went out of business some years ago? Is what we are seeing today the same company or did some one buy them?

    Adam you could have weighed in with your opinion on the Everest.

  5. #155
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Adam the bookshelf speakers are from Sonus Faber an Italian brand. I am not sure of the model.


    Here is a link.

    http://www.sonusfaber.com/eng/collec..._auditorm.html
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  6. #156
    Suspended atomicAdam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael
    Adam the bookshelf speakers are from Sonus Faber an Italian brand. I am not sure of the model.


    Here is a link.

    http://www.sonusfaber.com/eng/collec..._auditorm.html

    I think you got it - the Cermona line.

  7. #157
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicAdam
    ::: SORRY FOR CRAPPY PHOTOS :::

    Also - disclaimer - all comments are based on the performance of the speaker w/in the room at the show and my short or long listening time - obviously a hotel room w/ little treatment can only show so much of a set ups performance.



    This was the line at opening time Friday morning. It was a good chaotic start to the event. Friday morning was a great time to be at the show. Almost now one in the rooms - though a lot of rooms were still figuring out speaker position and room acoustics, so it was good to be able to come back to those rooms through out the weekend.

    I have to say, many of the folks at the show were very nice, both attendees, staff, and manufacturers.

    Electrocompaniet Room





    I was very interested to hear the floorstanding speakers in the Prelude line, happily they were as I expected, fuller low end versions of the bookshelf speakers with the same sweet, slightly rolled off high (the harsher highs it seems to me are rolled off). (review of the bookshelf prelude speakers, PC-1 CDP, PI-2 Amp, to come on Dagogo.com)

    I very much enjoyed these speakers, and for the sub $3000 price range, probably the best I heard at that price point. But you do have to like the sound.





    The Classic Line was very good. It had a similar sound to the Prelude line Scanspeak tweeter but much more detail and a much faster and cleaner low end. I was able to listen to track 4 off of Dead Can Dance Toward the Within. Lisa Gerrard voice was captivating and the drum circle that gets going towards the end of the song was awesome. There was some issues with room acoustics - I mean, that much power in that small a room.

    Peder from Electrocompaniet was very nice, and overall the sound from their systems was very pleasing to my ears, especially at the Prelude price point. Though, in that room, the floorstanding Prelude speakers were a big blurry and boomy at the lower mids and lows. I don't think that is all the fault of the room, the bookshelves I have in my house have had a bit of that issue as well.

    MORE TO COME .... but imma gonna go throw done some music for the rest of the night. hommie just burned me his new CD and I can't wait to hear it!
    I had the same impression of these speakers you did, but I thought it was because the speakers were so low to the ground. I have to rethink that explaination.
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  8. #158
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicAdam
    Sonist - deHavilland - Wireworld - Glow Audio



    "Why have pot when you can have heroin?" - the owner of the tape reel

    Yeah jackass, you know the point of a free sample is that people will come back for more, but when you have a one of a kind you kind of defeat the purpose!

    This was by far the most emotionally engaging music I have ever heard. I got into the room early Friday morning and had center seat for a good 20min. The Duke Ellington reel that was played made my gut move. I was somewhere between wanted to cry and wanted to commit seppuku. It wasn't loud, it wasn't big, but it is was by far the best thing I think I've ever heard. Granted, I wouldn't want to listen to rock/pop/modern music on it. But I can't imagine ever hearing jazz again without wishing I had this set up.

    On the flipside, when I went in again on Saturday the Glow amp had been replaced with some more powerful deHavilland (i believe) amplifiers. I guess the 5W into 95db sensitive Sonist Concerto 3 floorstander wasn't cutting it.

    Sonist Room 2



    These are another pair of Sonist speakers. They aren't on the Sonist website yet. They are being driven by another Glow Audio amplifier and I believe a Cambridge Audio $600 CDP. I'm guessing the Azur 650 or similar. I'm not really sure what to say about this room. The sound was distorted in the lows and mids when the sound was peaking. I am guessing that the amplifier was being over driven. Then again, there were about 4 older guys sitting in the room saying how wonderful the sound was when I was hearing distortion, so I wonder if my ears decided to take a nap while I was visiting this room. I didn't stop back unfortunately to see if anything had changed. I'm going to assume that these probably would have sounded better with a more powerful amplifier or at a quieter volume like they did in the other Sonist room with the tape reel.
    I had the same impression you did on these speakers as well - I was part of the saturday crowd, so I heard these speakers at their worst.

    Too much tweeter, not enough bass was my comments.
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  9. #159
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Great write-up Adam, thanks for sharing!

    The bookshelves in question were indeed the Cremona line. While I haven't heard them with Wadia they can sound fantastic with the right accompanying equipment. A little dark for some folk's tastes but mighty nice to these ears.
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  10. #160
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicAdam
    Wadia Digital

    Sorry, I didn't get the name of the bookshelf speakers being used, maybe someone can let us know.





    I think Wadia might be onto something with this set up. I heard the 171i iPod transport with a 151 PowerDAC. Cost is somewhere around $600 (if I remember correctly) for both the 50Watt Integrated Power Amp/DAC and the iPod Transport. I'm sorry I don't know the speakers, I'm sure someone here does. Everyone in the room I was in was very pleased with the sound, and I have to say, for the cost and the size (i really love how dang small this set up is) it was very pleasing. Now, comparing it to some higher cost components, the sound was clear and bass was extended and the sound was very solid. It was present in the room and not airy or dispersed. The problem I had with it was it sounded too clean and there was little depth to the sound. For an analogy to help explain, it was like seeing a photo of the Grand Canyon, but if you've never been, you don't really get the feel for how amazing it is. Most of the folks in the room were talking about the system and were pleased, but they also agreed with my analogy. But, lets face it, for the iPod generation this maybe one more tool and an affordable price point that can get them into hi-fi.

    The speaker, I think, they were pretty bling bling for bookshelfves if I remember correctly. They are great looking and had a pretty trick grill. The lack of depth in the mids made the music a bit too clinical for me, but the highs weren't piercing in the least and the lows were present and engaging.

    I can say I was impressed with this set up, but it is something I'd never have in my house. Its sound is the complete antithesis to what I love about vinyl.
    Wow, I hated the sound of this set up, and so did my buddy. Too much midrange, too clinical, too etchy, and just plain too cold for my taste. My mini-monitors are smaller than these speakers, and my buddy just kept commenting on how much better my speakers sounded compared to these. The crispness of these speakers might appeal to those who have lost the high end of their hearing, but I am not one of those people, and neither apparently is my buddy.
    Sir Terrence

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  11. #161
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks
    Great write-up Adam, thanks for sharing!

    The bookshelves in question were indeed the Cremona line. While I haven't heard them with Wadia they can sound fantastic with the right accompanying equipment. A little dark for some folk's tastes but mighty nice to these ears.
    These speakers were not dark, not by any stretch of the imagination.
    Sir Terrence

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  12. #162
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    These speakers were not dark, not by any stretch of the imagination.
    I didn't find them to be either but I've read that descriptor several different places. The set up I heard was with Levinson gear...a little bit beefier of an amp and no bells and whistles from the source. I'll agree that the mids can be artificially extended but I never caught any etch.

    ...just goes to show how crucial system and room synergy can be.
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  13. #163
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    In the latest issue of "The Absolute Sound" (September) Jonathan Valin reviews the tape system I raved about at the show: "The Tape Project Open-Reel Tapes". So far, they only have 20 copies of master tapes for sale and they are not cheap. $500 per tape. Valin admits that the best of the tapes are better than any other source he has heard. (he uses a phono system that costs upwards of $100,000). He suggests that some are taping their vinyl records to capture analogue sound without ticks and pops. That i will have to look into.

  14. #164
    Suspended PeruvianSkies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Any one know what happen with Wadia after they went out of business some years ago? Is what we are seeing today the same company or did some one buy them?

    Adam you could have weighed in with your opinion on the Everest.
    I am not sure of what all happened, about 3 years ago though I nearly got a Wadia reference CD player, but lost the bid on eBay in the last few seconds....I am still bummed about that one. A few days later though I got the Parasound universal player instead though and have been satisfied, but still want a dedicated CD player of Wadia-like caliber.

  15. #165
    Suspended atomicAdam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    These speakers were not dark, not by any stretch of the imagination.

    Yeah - super not dark. Off the gear I heard I'd say they have a clean midrange but certainly not too much. Maybe w/ the larger gear there was too much.

    I think with right gear they might sound better, but off of an iPod and 50 Integrated Amp/DAC that I believe is under the $1000 range, they did sound really good for that.

  16. #166
    Suspended atomicAdam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan
    In the latest issue of "The Absolute Sound" (September) Jonathan Valin reviews the tape system I raved about at the show: "The Tape Project Open-Reel Tapes". So far, they only have 20 copies of master tapes for sale and they are not cheap. $500 per tape. Valin admits that the best of the tapes are better than any other source he has heard. (he uses a phono system that costs upwards of $100,000). He suggests that some are taping their vinyl records to capture analogue sound without ticks and pops. That i will have to look into.
    I thought I heard you get each tape for $500 or all for $700, something something. Anyways - lets be real, for those price points you can pretty much higher a band to play in your livingroom for the night.

  17. #167
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan
    In the latest issue of "The Absolute Sound" (September) Jonathan Valin reviews the tape system I raved about at the show: "The Tape Project Open-Reel Tapes". So far, they only have 20 copies of master tapes for sale and they are not cheap. $500 per tape. Valin admits that the best of the tapes are better than any other source he has heard. (he uses a phono system that costs upwards of $100,000). He suggests that some are taping their vinyl records to capture analogue sound without ticks and pops. That i will have to look into.
    Without disputing the virtues of tape, if the objective is to converting vinyl in such a way as to capture the analog sound, capture them to CD. As I've heard, the "analog" quality is preserved quite well taking this approach; (I haven't tried it myself but vinyl-loving members around here have reported so in the past). Also, some people suggest the recording to lossless computer file works well too.

  18. #168
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan
    In the latest issue of "The Absolute Sound" (September) Jonathan Valin reviews the tape system I raved about at the show: "The Tape Project Open-Reel Tapes". So far, they only have 20 copies of master tapes for sale and they are not cheap. $500 per tape. Valin admits that the best of the tapes are better than any other source he has heard. (he uses a phono system that costs upwards of $100,000). He suggests that some are taping their vinyl records to capture analogue sound without ticks and pops. That i will have to look into.
    I have about 35 open reel tapes I have kept from previous recording sessions that I did. They are excellent recordings captured on an excellent deck. However, in transferring those tapes to disc via the DXD format, I could not tell which were the tapes, and which were the disc during an improptu blind test. I ended up trancoding the DXD files to PCM 24-192khz, so the comparison was definately worth doing.

    I would suggest that these guys get out more, and hear more formats. DXD is a far better capture format, and can pretty much losslessly be transferred to SACD or PCM at 24/192khz.
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  19. #169
    RGA
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    I said I would not comment in this thread and I won't. Here is Jack Robert's of Dagogo's show report

    Part 1 page 1 Legacy Audio, Magico V2s

    http://dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=778

    Part 1 page 2 covering JBL Project Everest loudspeakers, The Lotus Group’s room, Teresonic/Musical Surroundings, Evolution Acoustics, Audio Note UK (I don't need to comment ) Looks like at least a foot from the corners - uggh. Might be getting 60% of what they're about. Mario must have been having fits. Oops I commented so I'll stop. http://dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?b...ageOfArticle=1
    Last edited by RGA; 08-11-2010 at 08:55 AM.

  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    I have about 35 open reel tapes I have kept from previous recording sessions that I did. They are excellent recordings captured on an excellent deck. However, in transferring those tapes to disc via the DXD format, I could not tell which were the tapes, and which were the disc during an improptu blind test. I ended up trancoding the DXD files to PCM 24-192khz, so the comparison was definately worth doing.

    I would suggest that these guys get out more, and hear more formats. DXD is a far better capture format, and can pretty much losslessly be transferred to SACD or PCM at 24/192khz.
    I've heard all the formats, and NO digital format comes close to analogue. First, sound is analogue. Thus, you have to convert the analogue signal to digital, and then, because we listen only to analogue sounds, the digital information has to go through yet another distorting process: a digital to analogue conversion. Sound is flattened, tonal saturation is lost, and micro dynamics are reduced.

    One of the rooms was playing the Bill Evans "Waltz for Debby" recording in ever higher CD formats. Yes, the sound got more realistic, but, fortunately, I had a vinyl record of the recording, and after playing the vinyl, EVERYONE, including the salesmen, admitted that the vinyl DESTROYED the best CDs. Yes, especially in micro dynamics (like the small details of Paul Motian's cymbal strokes, and Scott LaFaro's subtle bass playing).
    Yes, in producing three dimensional sound. Yes, in tonal saturation.

    BTW, in the latest Stereophile, it's highly informative to look at John Atkinson's measurements of the Audio ResearchVSi60 integrated tube amp (he dismisses the amp as having less than outstand measurements) compared to his own full review of the Acapella High Violoncello II speaker ($80,000) . He found the Acapella less than realistic driven by the Classe CTM-600 ss monoblocks and the ss Simaudio Moon Evolution W-7. The BAT VK-55SE tube was much better, but, the very same tube Audio Research unit which he said measured just OK, the VSi60 (priced at just $4,000), drove the Acapella to an outstandingly realistic level of performance. He said that only the Audio Research tube unit got the balance between the high and low treble regions correct, and that the AR unit fleshed out the low frequencies!

    CD sound, even the very highest resolution, falls short of vinyl, as vinyl falls short of master tapes (or direct copies of master tapes). Ditto for ss and tube amplification, and mm and mc cartridges.

  21. #171
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    That ARC integrated has been around some time, why is he reviewing it now? i know you are an ARC fan but I didn't like the sound of the VXI-60. The Classe amps no better.

  22. #172
    RGA
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    Tube fan

    This is a bit O.T. but related to a point I have made for years. There are two kinds of uses that a stereo system has and a recording engineer looks at a system and wants a "hyper" reality of the event in a sense that he wants to hear every aspect compartmentalized and pulled apart so that each part can be scrutinized. It's not a relaxing experience.

    Looking strictly at the end user (which is the only one of relavence) then arguments over vinyl and CD or master tapes don't matter. Master Tapes may sound better but can I buy Lady Gaga on master tape? Probably not. So you have to have other mediums. CD and Vinyl have more program music on those formats than anything else. There is a TON of vinyl out there that is not available on CD - if it is about music you need a turntable to get those recordings. This is also true of CD - there is a LOT of music on CD that you can't get on vinyl. Then there are the strange albums on both. Sarah McLachlan has her new album on both but on the LP the album is short 3 songs. Jewel has an album where the vinyl version has 2-3 extra songs.

    Then there are the vinyls out there from other countries that have a different mix - I believe Phil Collins has an album or two like that where the British cut is different from the American ones.

    The best sound I have heard has come from vinyl - best doesn't mean accurate - it means best. It means that the sound of the instrument sounds better and "sounds" more like the real thing than the CD versions of the same albums, even the remastered versions of the CD. Even on relative dumpy stuff like Madonna. But, even if people should disagree with that - there is still thousands and thousands of albums on vinyl that isn't on any other format. A turntable is at the very least a necessary evil - if it is about the music and not the gear.

    Tubes and SS - Audiophiles tend to leave SS for tubes and don't go back. I grew up on SS and CD not vinyl and tubes. I find vinyl to be a royal pain in the arse - and tubes are not a lot better.

    Consider the work involved. A turntable has a lot of moving bits and you have to learn a bit about it. There are VTA tonearms, you have to set it up properly, you have to change the stylus, most of the higher end tables make you take the platter off to change the belts for 45rpm - PAIN IN THE BUTT.

    Tubes are a pain - they blow and that is after a slow steady degrading process. They can blow and if they do they can take boards with them. They're arguably more fire prone. Add to that the whole thing about bias adjusting. Sure it's not hard but to the average non electrician folks out there when you tell them to buy a voltmeter they run scared. Granted I am fortunate that the company that makes my amps don't need biasing but they're not the norm.

    Having said all that to get me, Mr Bryston, to buy an 8 watt tube amp with no remote and a 1 year warranty (and doesn't even look sexy like a Shanling) over an 160 watt power amp with matching preamp and 20 year warranty with no fussy issues like tube replacements, and is also from my homeland, has to have something brought to the table that so profoundly outclasses the amp with all the many and deep tertiary advantages. The synic will say it is Euphony. That's fine - Euphony means "pleasing" and as an end user I would like my stereo to sound "pleasing" - my other choice is "not" to sound "pleasing" and if you want something that doesn't sound "pleasing" then be my guest. Other analogies fail as well. SS is like meal without any spices or things to add flavour. Tubes alter the ingredients. I suppose so - a Tube may be like a marinated cooked filet mignon prepared by Gordon Ramsey to perfection. A SS amp may be a raw hunk of beef. I dunno a lot but I know which one is worth paying for and which is worth actually eating. Altering the meat makes it better and here it comes "more pleasing" or "euphonic." Granted you run the risk with some tube amps to push too much or to "over marinate" or to use too much salt which can ruin the food. So it's important to have a good chef at the helm.

    CD versus LP - buy both. CD is great and so are some of the recordings I heard done by the Pudget sound recording guys where there resolution rates are some of the highest out there - they did a great job with Usher loudspeakers. The other aspect to consider is the specific CD versus LP of the same artists. Sometimes the CD version just sounds better and more often of what I have bought the LP version sounds better. This is arguably the recording process more than the format. LP can't save a bad recording and those early CDs were so darn awful that CD got a poorer reputation than was probably fair. It also didn't help that those early machines were terrible.

    I saw a TEAC reel to reel machine in a used shop today going for $55 and it looked to be in great condition - I almost went for it but I don't know which brands are considered the A-list machines. TEAC has been into high end gear and also made some truly disastrous junk over the years.

  23. #173
    Forum Regular
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    Mar 2010
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    355
    You can't go wrong for $55. Yes, tubes are a pain. Yes, tts and cartridges are a pain. But then, I grind my coffee beans and use a french press to make my coffee. I work out 1 to 2 1/2 hours a day. If you are lazy, stick to ss and cds. My ears simply won't let me settle for inferior, but convenient, musical sources. They keep saying CDs are getting better. Ditto for ss. I don't want to settle for "better", when the alternative is clearly superior. IMO, keep a backup analogue system for the times when something goes wrong with your main system. Right now I am looking at low power amps and high efficiency speakers as a potential new backup to my main system. I still get a big kick out of the fact that JA had to go to a "cheap" tube integrated to get great sound out of an $80,000 speaker!

  24. #174
    It's just a hobby
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    Thumbs down Help, we are being hijacked

    Another hijacked thread coming your way
    It's a listening test, you do not need to see it to listen to it!

  25. #175
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    Aug 2010
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    11
    I hate to contribute to the pirating of a thread but ....

    I'll briefly say that if you compare CD sound quality vs vinyl sound it's a pretty easy choice in favor of the vinyl. Fortunately, we're not stuck in the 80's and there are alot of alternative digital recording mediums being used now. Some of the super high res (172khz PCM, 24bit 192khz) digital stuff sounds absolutely fantastic and you don't have to have a reel to reel tape machine with master tapes. The problem is finding your favorite music in a high res format you can playback. There's no clearcut choice for what format to use like there was when 'redbook' CD came out. Fortunately, I use my computer as my main source at home and can playback virutally anything. The super high res recordings I've been able to get my hands one really do stand apart from their redbook counterparts and I believe beat out vinyl recordings in sound quality.

    Unfortunately, new formats in audio really have a hard time finding consensus and not many producers and product developers want to waste money on a 'fad'. Hopefully in another 5-10years redbook will be history and will be replaced by a single super high res digital format. When that happens it is going to be alot harder to see a clear winner in the vinyl vs digital argument. Until then, I'm stuck listening to a few choice cuts over and over
    Last edited by Brian K; 08-11-2010 at 04:01 PM.

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