First impressions at California audio Show

[RGA]

Please don't mis-understand me. I have no problems with the speaker itself, only the incessent hijacking of threads by a certain fanboy of said item.

Four posters on this board have actually Auditioned the AN E. All four of them commented on the AN E. All Four posters like the AN E. Sir T liked them a little less than Brian K, Myself and Tube Fan. The people who took it off track were all the people who have NEVER heard the AN E but wish to knock them continually at every opportunity. Yourself, Feaner and others. This thread was taken off track by YOU and them. And you know it.

How can a thread be said to be taken off track when the thread is about auditioning many rooms one of which is the AN room? All that happened was one room was being discussed - this thread can also discuss other rooms which has also been done. If Sir T felt his thread was de-railed he should be the one making that argument and not you. Pretty horrible moderating. As for comments I never called anyone any name - I said "If you think X then Y" - And no one thinks X I am pretty sure so no one was called anything. But I did delete the comments because some may not read the word "If" closely.

We talked about some other gear here as well. Lotus, YG Acoustics, Teresonic, Acoustic Zen - but this thread had more interest in discussing Audio Note. And that's the facts. Moderators who fan the flames should not be moderators.

[RGA]

Sir T

I still am not sure about that because Colloms, Hi-Fi Choice, and Audiophile in German all get 94db or higher sensitivity. And they would measure the speaker the same way they measure all speakers. I just can't see how all those other acoustic engineers could be wrong?

I understand what you say in the respect that Peter is not measuring the same way that Stereophile measures (because Peter says that he doesn't - this is how Peter measures his speakers http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?...er+Qvortrup&r= ) so those other magazines investigated what Peter has done and confirmed the real world in room sensitivity.

Duke is a speaker designer who argued most of the case against Peter some time back. This is what he says:

" Martin [Colloms] recorded a 2.83 volt sensitivity of 94 dB, noting that the speaker's minimum impedance was 3.6 ohms. So this version of the AN/E is apparently a 4-ohm speaker, and its 1-watt efficiency would be 91 dB. Nothing earth-shaking here.

Martin also measures the speaker as -3 dB at 28 Hz when placed near a wall. That also seems within reason to me.

He identifies the tuning frequency of the vented enclosure as 29 Hz, and then notes:

"...an in-room -6 dB point of 18 Hz..."

This is better than I would have expected from a 91 dB efficient woofer
in a 2.1 cubic vented enclosure assuming the theoretical maximum 9 dB of gain due to rigid corner loading. Theory predicts -9 dB at 18Hz under those conditions, so according to Martin Colloms you beat the computer by 3 dB."

And

"Peter, I think that Donald North has nuked my theory. As far as I can tell the theoretical maximum gain from corner placement is indeed 18 dB because the energy reflected off the floor and walls (or directed by the floor and walls) is in-phase with the rear-firing port's output.

Simply put, I was wrong.

I apologize for saying that your speakers cannot do what you claim they can even with corner loading. I gave you a hard time about it and you took it like a gentleman.

I guess that different people are convinced by different kinds of evidence, and as long as I had the mistaken conviction that 9 dB was the theoretical maximum gain from corner placement I wasn't going to believe your claimed in-room measurements bass extension. Now I have no solid basis for disputing your claim of -6 dB at 17 Hz with corner loading.

Ah, there's my dessert now. Yum.

Duke"


Sir T - I have a question. Many years ago I was told by a dealer (back in the days when Horns were sold everywhere) that there is a difference in measuring a speaker in terms of 1 watt per meter and the 2.83Volts. My Hand made British Horn Wharfedales also have a spec on the back as 2.83v. From what Duke is saying above it looks like this means that the 2.83v method is 3db higher than the 1 watt per meter rating often found in North America. According to Duke them the 94db speaker is 91db in watts per meter. If this is true then all of the AN speakers would be 3db higher than the North American standard of 1 watt per meter - and so could many other British made speakers? This may be like the different size gallons and liters. ??

[tube fan]

WOW! I almost wish I had not even mentioned the Audio Note room, but, as I spent hours in their room, and as I throughly enjoyed what I heard (especially when played at realistic levels), I had to included Audio Note. My concern with the Audio Note was not with the bass, but with the treble. My Fulton Js are very alive in the highs. The highs are covered by an RTR ESR- 6. Only the King matched the highs of the Fulton IMO. Many times, music heard live (say from a trumpet) has tremendous impact. Can the Audio Notes, with SET amps, match the realism in the highs of my Fulton J when the music requires it? Unfortunately, I could not play my vinyl in the Audio Note room as they had no tt.

My Fulton Js are BIG, and the woofer enclosure is 26 inches wide by 20 inches deep by 32 inches high with two speakers, one forward firing, and one down firing. They go down as low as anything I have heard (felt in this case). Not much music down to 20 hz except for pipe organ music. The double bass goes down to about 33 hz, and when it does, you both hear it with your ears and feel it in your chest. That is one reason why I brought the Gary Karr vinyl record to test the different speakers.

Aside from the Audio Note speakers, I would love to hear my vinyl on the following speakers: the Salk Soundscape and Songtower, both bargans; the Evolution Acoustics
MM Mini One $22,000 with stand and with integrated subwofer (the best sound at the show IMO, and that was driven by solid state, the $20,000 darTZeel); and the King electrostatic.

The Sound in the Salk room was impressive considering the source (a ?CD player), and the modest price. I have always been impressed by Van Alstine's mods. The Ultravalve Vacuum Tube Amp deserves more listening. BTW, my brother had a Van Alstine modified Dyna ST-400 which we could get to clip (on loud, deep music) on the Fulton Js.

The Evolution Acoustic speakers were as beautiful to look at as to listen to. Many at CES 2010 thought they produced the best sound. I hope they have a local dealer.

The King, at a very reasonable $8,000, could be an absolute killer on vinyl, but they seem to be extremely demanding of associated equipment.

[RGA]

At CES I actually preferred the sound of the Prince II to the KingSound "King" speaker - perhaps it was the room. The Prince II is $6k and even with mediocre gear running it it sounded really good. I think it's a better speaker than the Quad 2905 ($14,000) and the Prince actually has some bass. And sure the KingSound stuff is made in China - but so is the Quad.

Dagogo's resident panel guy bought the King speakers.

I think the thing to always consider is how big a speaker can you really support. Panels for me are just so damn big. On the plus side you can mark your carpet with tape and then pull them out to the tape and listen and then when down you can push them up against the wall. They're not all that heavy.

I have never heard a Kingsound with vinyl though. I also wonder how easy they are to drive. My OTO is 10 watts and was driving the Quad 2905 wonderfully well at reasonable levels. I suspect the KingSound stuff requires more oomph.

[RGA]

RE: AN's spec

Okay I am seeing some issues here. The Audio Note speakers are not 8ohms. They are 4-6ohms and this changes things. At 4ohms it takes 2 watts to get the 95db figure and would lose 3db under the 1 watt per meter if yiou assumed it was an 8ohm speaker. Their website does not list the ohm rating but a minimum of 3.6ohm implies that it is a 4ohm speaker - but my AN J says 6ohms (but it never dips below 5ohms).

"2.83 volts into 8 ohm resistance is 1 watt. Speakers are not resistive loads and the impedance is not constant with frequency, so finding one watt can be tough or impossible. Using a standard voltage allows the amp to deliver any amount of current demanded by the speaker. Speakers respond to voltage, so this probably a better way to rate a speaker. The downside is that the method can allow a low impedance speaker system to hide its true efficiency. If 2.83V is applied to a 4 ohm system and the results are 100 dB, it got that loud on 2 watts, not one."

in other words:

8ohm @ 2.83V = 88dB
4ohm @ 2.83V = 91dB

This would mean by my reading that AN E speakers if they are 4 or 6 ohm rated compared to an 8 ohm speaker is roughly 1.5db to 3db higher than 8ohm counterparts. Thus, the AN E spec should be reduced 1.5 - 3db if you compare them to 8ohm speakers.

Edit:

Okay according the manual they rate the AN E speaker at 6ohms not 8ohms so that puts the speaker specs on their website at least 1.5db higher than an 8ohm rated speaker. You could argue 3db though due to min impedence under 4ohms. The manual - http://www.audionote.co.uk/downloads...N-E_Manual.pdf

Moreover
Looking at some 4 ohm panels like the maggie 3.6 - the makers gave Stereophile figures of 86dB/2.83V/m and JA measured them as 83.5dB(B)/2.83V/m. I think the makers are providing more real word figures.

[Geoffcin]

WOW! I almost wish I had not even mentioned the Audio Note room, but, as I spent hours in their room, and as I throughly enjoyed what I heard (especially when played at realistic levels), I had to included Audio Note. My concern with the Audio Note was not with the bass, but with the treble. My Fulton Js are very alive in the highs. The highs are covered by an RTR ESR- 6. Only the King matched the highs of the Fulton IMO. Many times, music heard live (say from a trumpet) has tremendous impact. Can the Audio Notes, with SET amps, match the realism in the highs of my Fulton J when the music requires it? Unfortunately, I could not play my vinyl in the Audio Note room as they had no tt.

Do not feel bad. I am glad you've posted about what you heard. With TT as a counterpoint it makes for very interesting comparisons. It's not your fault that even a mention of said speakers will bring a volumous discourse on their merits by a certain fanboy.

[Geoffcin]

How can a thread be said to be taken off track when the thread is about auditioning many rooms one of which is the AN room? All that happened was one room was being discussed - this thread can also discuss other rooms which has also been done. If Sir T felt his thread was de-railed he should be the one making that argument and not you. Pretty horrible moderating. As for comments I never called anyone any name - I said "If you think X then Y" - And no one thinks X I am pretty sure so no one was called anything. But I did delete the comments because some may not read the word "If" closely.

Perhaps your thinking that your lawering of the language will change the way anyone interpreted the post you made to me but be forewarned; Hijacking of threads will not be allowed. Name calling will not be allowed. Disrespecting moderators will not be tolerated.

Oh, and for your information the thread was not started by TT, (although he did make quite a detailed review of the show) but by Tube Fan, a new AR forums member that I would like to keep here. While only here a short tome he has already stated that he regrets even bringing up the word AN! This is ironic because I was really interested what a dis-interested party would have to say about these speakers, but his post got drowned out in all of the noise you generated.

So, based on what I've read I would say that you are doing that company a DIS-service by your incessant postings and over-the-top praise of them. This is the ultimate irony in that their biggest fanboy has now become their greatest detractor!

[RGA]

But if people didn't get on my case then it would never have went anywhere. Can you not see that you didn't help this in any way shape or form? Cleary you always find yoursefl the perfect poster. Calling members fanboys is name calling. Clearly it's do as I say and not as I do.

And yes I get the doing AN a diservice a lot. Soundhounds and Peter are quite fine with my posts. Peter would prefer reviewers to come and call things dog poop and rave about the good stuff more often. I probably don't go nearly far enough for his liking.

But I'll be happy to talk about the other rooms I liked at CES and that people here liked at CAS. Anyone want to discuss Teresonic or Acoustic Zen. I heard the latter with Tri tube gear and it sounded great - people here seemed to like it with SS.

I'd be happy to discuss the Reel to Reel machines and some brands to look at used. There is a used shiop downtown that has some Sony Reel to Reel machines. Any good?

And you have to admit that when I am in a thread it usually goes many more pages. That generates more posts and more discussion. This board was one of the busiest on the net back int he day when Soundmind(Skeptic), Mrtycrfts, RGA, Eyespy, and some others were ranting away. And then a rule change and this place became a complete ghost town.

In real life people converse and the subject can change. The first post in this thread mentioned Audio Note - how did it get off task - people who never heard it disputing what he heard? Ahh.

[PeruvianSkies]

Were SS uniforms on sale in bulk around here?

[E-Stat]

But if people didn't get on my case then it would never have went anywhere.

I have been posting on audio boards for about ten years now, and of the thousands of contributors I've encountered, you are part of a precious few individuals who can steer most any post to a discussion about the praises of one single brand with such regularity. Or at least respond to every mention. George Mann over at AA is nearly your equal about Accuphase. Don't you see that? Even Melvin trumpeted the accolades of both McIntosh and Bozak.

rw

[theaudiohobby]

But if people didn't get on my case then it would never have went anywhere.

Not so, on this page alone, you have about 4 posts where are you effectively responding to yourself.

[RGA]

Well - this shall be my last post in the thread.

Cheers,

[LeRoy]

Would anyone who was at the show and listened to the Salk speaker care to elaborate on the musicality of the Salk product? I'm trying to understand what the Salk speakers sound like in comparison to products say like from from Usher, Reference 3A, Sonus Faber, and Canton...similar tonalities, slam, mids, dispersion, emotion,etc.

Thanks!

Leroy

[tube fan]

Would anyone who was at the show and listened to the Salk speaker care to elaborate on the musicality of the Salk product? I'm trying to understand what the Salk speakers sound like in comparison to products say like from from Usher, Reference 3A, Sonus Faber, and Canton...similar tonalities, slam, mids, dispersion, emotion,etc.

Thanks!

Leroy

As stated before, both Salk speakers, the Soundscape and the Songtower were sounding good with Van Alstine amps. These speakers are priced right, and the soundscape also looked beautiful. However, they didn't have any tt, so I couldn't play my vinyl. I have found that it is useful to play music that you like and are very familiar with when comparing audio systems. Dealers usually play software that is exceptional in sound quality. I took several records that would put an audio system to different kinds of tests. The Adgiod'Albinoni with only two instruments, double bass (going down to somewhere around 33 hz) and pipe organ (down to 20 or lower) is a severe test if played at realistic levels. When Gary Karr goes deep, you both hear it with your ears and feel it in your chest. Accurately capturing the sound of a pipe organ is extremely tough, and, here, you mostly feel the deepest notes. None of the speakers could match what I am used to with the Fulton J, which has two huge woofer modules. The Firebird recording by Dorati on Mercury is also an extreme test. Here the system has to deal with an orchestra going full out, with some extreme drum action. The Mudy Waters folk singer on the Original Master recording has severe micro and macro dynamics and some great guitar playing by Muddy and by Buddy Guy. The Chet record has stunning trumpet and sax parts, and most systems failed to capture the full beauty and power of either.

I am going to make an effort to hear these speakers with my vinyl as the potential is there, and the price is real world. I know Dick Olsher gave the combination of the Van Alstine Ultravalve Power Amp ($1,700) and the Salk SongTower QWT ($1,800) a rave review in the Absolute Sound: "In my estimation, the Salk Sound SongTower and Ultravalve combo represent the most musical audio dollars you're ever likely to spend during a lifetime of consumption. Pricewise, at under $2k each, this coupling represents but a fraction of some of the amps and speakers that pass through my listening room. Yet, it proved to be one of the most enjoyable in some 30 years of audio reviewing, and enjoying the music is what this passion of ours should be all about. A four-star recommendation!"

[LeRoy]

I appreciate the energy and enthusiasm of your Salk speaker review.

LeRoy

[atomicAdam]

Hey guys - lets knock off the AN good/bad argument. ok, please stick to thread topic. Actually, damn, I think I'm just gonna make a new thread about AN at the CAS and move all those post into there, if I can.

To answer the photo question - I have a lot - I will edit and start posting as well as room observations. I just got back from a trip to Bishop (climbing,skinny dipping[oh yummi]) and haven't had a chance to deal with all the show photos and notes. Not that my opinions are anything more worthy than anyone else's who WENT THE SHOW AND IS STAYING ON THREAD TOPIC, but I didn't have many expectation to jade my mind.

Anyways - bed time now - got to wake up at 4am and go running - so - have to wait till tomorrow.

But overall, an amazing show, so many people came, and for a summer show. Just shows you, there is a whole host of audiophiles in the Bay Area. sleep well y'all.

[atomicAdam]

I have been posting on audio boards for about ten years now, and of the thousands of contributors I've encountered, you are part of a precious few individuals who can steer most any post to a discussion about the praises of one single brand with such regularity. Or at least respond to every mention. George Mann over at AA is nearly your equal about Accuphase. Don't you see that? Even Melvin trumpeted the accolades of both McIntosh and Bozak.

rw

E-Stat - While this might be the case, many hear egg him on and helped to steer this thread way off track, starting w/ RGA and STTT going back and forth, actually talking about, the speakers. After that it became a bloody mess with other jumping in and leading the thread even more off track.

Please, everyone, just post about the California Audio Show, do those reading the thread this favor.

[tube fan]

At CES I actually preferred the sound of the Prince II to the KingSound "King" speaker - perhaps it was the room. The Prince II is $6k and even with mediocre gear running it it sounded really good. I think it's a better speaker than the Quad 2905 ($14,000) and the Prince actually has some bass. And sure the KingSound stuff is made in China - but so is the Quad.

Dagogo's resident panel guy bought the King speakers.

I think the thing to always consider is how big a speaker can you really support. Panels for me are just so damn big. On the plus side you can mark your carpet with tape and then pull them out to the tape and listen and then when down you can push them up against the wall. They're not all that heavy.

I have never heard a Kingsound with vinyl though. I also wonder how easy they are to drive. My OTO is 10 watts and was driving the Quad 2905 wonderfully well at reasonable levels. I suspect the KingSound stuff requires more oomph.

You could play the Quad ESL 57s with Dynaco St-70s wonderfully. BTW, it's interesting to note how many audio reviewers own the Quad 57s (ditto for the Audio Notes). Perhaps I should buy a set (or two) of Quad 57s for my second system. Or, perhaps I should buy a system like RGAs (one of the men running the Audio Note room stated that the Audio Note J would have sounded better in that room). RGAs system is within most of our price range, as is the Quad 57. I know my wife would love the sound of the Audio Note System.

Fortunately, I have an open floor plan, and am able to position my speakers wherever they sound best. Right now my Dunlavy SC-IVs are against the wall, with the Fulton Js three feet in front on them. I prefer the speakers to be pointed slightly to the front of my listening position (much like in the Audio Note room). Fortunately, my wonderful wife has never complained about my speakers/equipment/vinyl record racks once! I'm sure the Dunlavys would sound better in another room (on the long wall). But, then, the Fulton Js would probably also sound better positioned there.

I do take my wife on a six week vacation to Europe every other year. Plus, a twice weekly meal out at a nice restaurant. Plus, I do the cleaning and most of the cooking. Still, it's a great bargan for me. I just finished listening to the re-release of Venice, the Solti version, on RCA Victor, at FULL volume. FANTASTIC! Just before that I played "The Power and the Majesty" an Original Master Recording, a record of steam locomotives on one side, and, on the other side, a recording of a thunderstorm. At FULL REALISTIC volume! Back in the day, when I was living in an apartment in North Beach, I used to play the thunderstorm side, when it rained, at MORE than full volume, and, the next day, many neighbors would always ask me if I had heard the thunder!

[Jack in Wilmington]

Full volumne, that would hurt my ears. What kind of db's are you calling realistic levels? I work in a loud environment, that is the last thing I want when I come home is loud music.

[frenchmon]

You guys still arguing over gear at the Cali Audio Show??? Where are the pictures?

I had to hi jack at least one.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[Jack in Wilmington]

You guys still arguing over gear at the Cali Audio Show??? Where are the pictures?

I had to hi jack at least one.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Hi Frenchie, Is that your new setup? Nice HaHa.

[tube fan]

[QUOTE=frenchmon]You guys still arguing over gear at the Cali Audio Show??? Where are the pictures?

I had to hi jack at least one.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/QUOTE

Thanks for posting the picture of the Salk speakers. IMO, the quality of the finish was remarkable. Both speakers can be driven by a few tube watts.

[frenchmon]

Jack...I only wish...

tube fan....yes they are some fine looking speakers. The place where I got the picture from had many good pictures of that room...and the Van Alstine aint looking to shabby either.

tube fan did you listen to the Salks? If so what sound characteristic do they have? Are they dark in character? lively mids? Extended tweets? Very proknounced in the bottom end like Dynaudio? How did they sound to you?

Also I've been to the Salk web site to see if they made their own drivers but I cant seem to find any information on them. I assume they have them made from several different company's. Even a few of their speakers looked like they had Scan Speak or either Seas drivers. Do you have any information on them?

[blackraven]

Tube Fan, I live 3 minutes from Frank Van Alstine and have been to his house which is also his studio and design and manufacturing area. I own his hybrid DAC and Preamp. His gear has this magical synergy with Salk speakers. You can check out the reviews by multiple Salk and VA owners on www.audiocircles.com

By the way, in the pictures of the Salk room, the Ultravavle amp on the left is sitting on top of Franks old and cheap CD player that he uses as a transport in his studio. It's either an old HK or Onkyo player that Frank likes to use with his DAC's to show that you don't need a good source with his DAC's. It looks like he has his FET Valve 550 hybrid amp, new vision DAC and an Ultra Hybrid preamp as well.

[Brian K]

Jack...I only wish...

tube fan....yes they are some fine looking speakers. The place where I got the picture from had many good pictures of that room...and the Van Alstine aint looking to shabby either.

tube fan did you listen to the Salks? If so what sound characteristic do they have? Are they dark in character? lively mids? Extended tweets? Very proknounced in the bottom end like Dynaudio? How did they sound to you?

Also I've been to the Salk web site to see if they made their own drivers but I cant seem to find any information on them. I assume they have them made from several different company's. Even a few of their speakers looked like they had Scan Speak or either Seas drivers. Do you have any information on them?

I spent quite a while in the Salk room and was very impressed with the SoundScapes and Van Alstine equipment. Unfortunately, their CD player - a Denon midfi unit - was downright bad and there was no vinyl. Music from the Squeezebox actually managed to sound good but when Jim put a CD of mine into the Denon the sound was just horrible. I think he knew it and stuck to the Squeezebox almost entirely.

As far as drivers, the speakers use a RAAL 70-20XR (OEM-only) ribbon tweeter, a 3" Accuton ceramic midrange and a 10" (optional 12") Acoustic Elegance woofer with dual passive radiators. The RAAL tweeter has extremely flat frequency response up to 30khz+ and excellent vertical dispersion which makes for a wide sound stage and lots of seperation and sparkle to the sound. The highs from that tweeter were without a doubt the best I heard from any room at the show. The midrange was equally as transparent and revealing with a holographic sound that seemed to float in the air. I was quite surprised at how much bass the 10" woofer was able to reproduce. The first couple tracks I heard were a little shy on the bass and then Jim played a track that had a nice acoustic bass recording and it was extremely tuneful, fast and deep. These are the kind of speakers where you forget you're listening to speakers and just hear the music.

I liked these speaker just as much as if not more than the Evolution Acoustics speaker that had similar drivers but cost $30k/pair instead of $10k. I wouldn't think twice about buying them if I were in the market.



Disclaimer : I have a pair of speakers being custom built using the RAAL tweeter with Accuton mids (albeit a different one). I think I'm still fairly objective however. Another Accuton system, the Conspiracy by Consensus Audio, which was at the show and has the same midrange driver being used in my speakers, sounded absolutely horrrrrible to me. I'm curious to hear how other people liked the Salks or Evolution Acoustics systems.