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  1. #1
    Forum Regular bjdalton1's Avatar
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    Feel the need for a new stereo system

    People,
    I have a 50 watt 2 channel Nad C355BEE and a pair of B&W bookshelf's CDM 1NT's. All in pristine condition. It just doesn't give me the warm and fuzzy. Its appears a bit bright. Missing warmth and bass. I seem at a loss. There are so many types of equipment, speakers, etc. and combinations, it just makes my head spin. I talked with a guy at the stereo store yesterday. He was busy and couldn't give me of his time. Buttttt he thought that I should consider getting rid of it all and going with Definitive speakers and a 4 channel tube integrated amp. What say all of you experts?
    The Wulf.
    The Wulf

  2. #2
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    Why not try a powered sub?
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  3. #3
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjdalton1
    People,
    I have a 50 watt 2 channel Nad C355BEE and a pair of B&W bookshelf's CDM 1NT's. All in pristine condition. It just doesn't give me the warm and fuzzy. Its appears a bit bright. Missing warmth and bass. I seem at a loss. There are so many types of equipment, speakers, etc. and combinations, it just makes my head spin. I talked with a guy at the stereo store yesterday. He was busy and couldn't give me of his time. Buttttt he thought that I should consider getting rid of it all and going with Definitive speakers and a 4 channel tube integrated amp. What say all of you experts?
    The Wulf.
    Starting a system from scratch can be a lot of fun... I suggest going to a few different dealers, letting them know your budget and auditioning combos in that price range...

  4. #4
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    NAD has gone through a few transitions in it's history and I'm not positive I've heard your particular amp. I have heard a lot of NAD and for the most part it generally has decent bass and a warm dark character. Instead of scrapping everything I would start by trying some new speakers with your existing amp. I don't know what your budget might be I'd suggest giving a listen to Dynaudio Focus series, the 110 bookshelves are outstanding. I've also heard PSB are warm. Maybe too far in the "warmth" area but Vandersteen could be a possibility.

    If what you want is just a bit of bottom end fill and impact, JoeE's suggestion of adding a sub is good and wouldn't cost a lot, well, depending on how crazy you go. Emotiva has some good subs at a good price. SVS entry level starts under $600.00 and they are awesome. And, then, you have your mass market stuff.

    You can get into tubes or hybrid with JoLida very reasonable. What tube amp was that guy peddling? I wonder why it's a four channel. Also, Def Tech is not known for it's warmth. They make decent stuff but there is better for the money IMO.
    Last edited by Mr Peabody; 03-27-2011 at 07:47 PM.

  5. #5
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    First and foremost, what is your budget?
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  6. #6
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjdalton1
    People,
    I have a 50 watt 2 channel Nad C355BEE and a pair of B&W bookshelf's CDM 1NT's. All in pristine condition. It just doesn't give me the warm and fuzzy. Its appears a bit bright. Missing warmth and bass. I seem at a loss. There are so many types of equipment, speakers, etc. and combinations, it just makes my head spin. I talked with a guy at the stereo store yesterday. He was busy and couldn't give me of his time. Buttttt he thought that I should consider getting rid of it all and going with Definitive speakers and a 4 channel tube integrated amp. What say all of you experts?
    The Wulf.
    Well, BJ (or Wulf), my suspicion falls on the CDN 1NTs for your lacking warmth. I had a pair at home briefly a few years ago and they were distinctly "analytic". My limited experience with NAD is, indeed, that they tend to be on the warm side, so worry about the amp later.

  7. #7
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjdalton1
    . Buttttt he thought that I should consider getting rid of it all and going with Definitive speakers and a 4 channel tube integrated amp. What say all of you experts?
    I'd say that was a pretty bad idea. I suspect if you tolerated the B&Ws for some length of time the Def Techs will drive you to a spiritual torpor; a veritable somnabulant journey into la-la land. It should've already been said that the top end sizzle of the CDMs is pretty well documented and while adding sub support might theoretically help even out the overall frequency menu it has been tried unsuccessfully many times.

    It's important to know that I'm biased against NAD amps. I find them grating and boring at the same time, which is an accomplishment unto their own. In this case, I also suspect that the 50 watt model runs insufficient current to properly feed hungry beemers. None the less, if you prefer that amp's voicing, auditioning a different speaker might be in order. I'd recommend something easier to drive.

    Were it my dollars, IMO, I'd be looking for some different pairings. KEF/McIntosh and Rotel/Dynaudio immediately come to mind though if you're intent on a "tube" experience a VanAlstine/Almarro/Omega combination could keep these ears happy.

    Obviously the choices are endless and, as has been suggested, it will mostly come down to desire and budget.
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  8. #8
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjdalton1
    People,
    I have a 50 watt 2 channel Nad C355BEE and a pair of B&W bookshelf's CDM 1NT's. All in pristine condition. It just doesn't give me the warm and fuzzy. Its appears a bit bright. Missing warmth and bass. I seem at a loss. There are so many types of equipment, speakers, etc. and combinations, it just makes my head spin. I talked with a guy at the stereo store yesterday. He was busy and couldn't give me of his time. Buttttt he thought that I should consider getting rid of it all and going with Definitive speakers and a 4 channel tube integrated amp. What say all of you experts?
    The Wulf.
    Hello bjdalton1... the character of your NAD is not bright. Nor is the NAD overly warm either. And the NAD will be a great sounding amp with the proper system matching. The first thing you should do is know the character of the NAD. The CDM 1NT's can sound a little high in the upper ranges. And they can be a little recessed in the mids and bass for some listners. But the NAD shoud be able to give them a little definition in the bottom end. Speaker placement is important with those monitors. It could be as simple as proper placement and better speaker cable and interconnects thats better suited for the system. What source's are you using? And what cable and interconnects are you using. How big is the room?

    Have you heard tubed gear? I would not look to the Def-Tech speakers unless I listened to a lot of loud hard rock. Do you? There is a speaker that I have taken a listen to...its the cousin of the Def-tech and its sound is more sophisticated in my opinion. Its the Golden Ear speaker. So if you do want a better bottom end, they
    to have a built in sub. But your problem may be as simple as speaker placement, new speaker cable and interconnects....I would start there.
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  9. #9
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Cool

    sometimes its something simple. BEING a purist I HATE TONE CONTROLS, but turning up
    the treble in a overly damped room just a tad made a remarkable difference.
    Also, B&W bookshelves tend to benefit from a sub. I have tried several times to
    set up systems with bookshelf beemers only, they seem to need a sub, even a pair of floorstanders I have (dm305) get good use out of a sub.
    Try it(but save the receipt). AS FOR YOUR "NAD" they tend to be more accurate
    in their power ratings, 50wpc is more substantial than in other gear. NOT BAD,
    but bright speakers go with Nad very well.
    Or maybe you have new car fever, nothing wrong with that, I GUESS.
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  10. #10
    Forum Regular bjdalton1's Avatar
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    Well people thanx for all of the replies. See if i can answer some of your questions:
    * Size of room is 11' x 12'-6. The speakers are on the 11' wall facing the sundeck and glass doors.
    * How about some more sub woofer ideas, types?
    * My budget is open.
    * Does it matter its a 2 channel stereo? Other than I can't hook up more speakers, say, in the other room.
    * Speakers are 6' apart and about 10" off the wall.
    * Will better cable really make a noticeable difference?
    * Does the brightness of the speakers reflect the amp?
    * Is 50 WPC enough? One person says no while another says yes.

    Thanks everyone, keep on with the help.
    The Wulf
    The Wulf

  11. #11
    Forum Regular bjdalton1's Avatar
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    Can't do a sub woofer, no room.
    The Wulf.
    The Wulf

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjdalton1
    Well people thanx for all of the replies. See if i can answer some of your questions:
    * Size of room is 11' x 12'-6. The speakers are on the 11' wall facing the sundeck and glass doors.
    - If nothing covering your glass doors that may be something to do. Perhaps a curtain with a backing. Blinds could help to diffuse but wouldn't be as effective as a curtain for taming the room.

    * How about some more sub woofer ideas, types?
    * My budget is open.
    * Does it matter its a 2 channel stereo? Other than I can't hook up more speakers, say, in the other room.
    - This shouldn't matter in regard to your issue.

    * Speakers are 6' apart and about 10" off the wall.
    * Will better cable really make a noticeable difference?
    - If you are only using typical speaker wire cables could possibly help. The topic is highly debated, I have heard differences in cables, I don't try to convince any one there is difference but I do try to convince those interested to try for themselves. Many local boutique shops will allow you to borrow cables, most will at least allow a return and most all online sellers allow a return. Just watch for restock fees. Credible sellers don't charge restock.

    * Does the brightness of the speakers reflect the amp?
    - If the speakers are "neutral" it could be a reflection of the amp. Most speakers do have their own presentation and tend to sound brighter and B&W have that rep. On the other hand NAD is not known for being overly bright.

    * Is 50 WPC enough? One person says no while another says yes.
    - This is a complex question as all watts are not created equal. As stated earlier NAD's 50 watts are fairly strong as they build them to have reserve power for short bursts of demand, they can sometimes deliver much more than their rated power but for only a couple seconds or so. It also depends on the speakers design, the impedance and how stable that impedance is, important the sensitivity or efficiency of the speaker. I don't know your speaker well enough to determine if your amp is enough.
    Thanks everyone, keep on with the help.
    The Wulf
    Did you mention what you were using for a CD player? Some budget players lack refinement and can make a system bright.

  13. #13
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjdalton1
    People,
    I have a 50 watt 2 channel Nad C355BEE and a pair of B&W bookshelf's CDM 1NT's. All in pristine condition. It just doesn't give me the warm and fuzzy. Its appears a bit bright. Missing warmth and bass. I seem at a loss. There are so many types of equipment, speakers, etc. and combinations, it just makes my head spin. I talked with a guy at the stereo store yesterday. He was busy and couldn't give me of his time. Buttttt he thought that I should consider getting rid of it all and going with Definitive speakers and a 4 channel tube integrated amp. What say all of you experts?
    The Wulf.

    Yes and that will make your dealer a nice amount of profit and you may be back here in X amount of time with several other sorts of problems.

    I am not sure of the point of a 4 channel tube amplifier or that Definitive is exactly going to fix any problems - the CDM 1NT does have some issues. You also don't mention the source - and contrary to popular opinion - the CD player does matter.

    The CDM 1NT can sound bright and interestingly the NAD Bee series amps tend not to be as bright as some amplifiers in this price class - although they can also sound a bit leaden and they're not good resolvers IME. B&W has some interesting issues with their tweeter on top technology and I don't find their tweeter matches up well with their midwoofers - in other words I always hear the drivers - and that is somewhat acceptable in a big floorstander with lots of drive and power but less tolerable with a standmount. Adding a sub may add bass - but that doesn't fix the integration issues and most subs sound dreadful when they have to produce actual musical instruments that people can hear. Even REL's top of the line I find pretty mediocre. Better than many but very expensive. Home theater is something else. And this assumes that you really set-it up bang on - even if you do I find it "so-so" and most people have a lot of trouble setting it up (requires a learning curve) and many rooms don't seem up to the job. And IMO you need two subs to get a proper stereo image - Read the Richard "bassnut" Green on audioasylum as to why 2 subs make sense. Two subs is lots more money however and lots more space required.

    Fortunately, NAD and B&W are well known names so they should be easy to sell. But I sure would not just take the dealer's word for it. Start doing the homework. I generally like going the tube route but not all are created equal - not by a long shot. And not all are better than solid state just by being a tube unit. SS tends have a few "camps" of sound while tube amps have much more variation in sound - and more variation means some will not sound remotely as good as others while the fewer SS camps you can usually hear a "like" presentation across many of them. The Crown school and the Levinson school as has been noted by some are two examples of amplifier schools.

    If I was to stay with SS and keeping a sane budget I would look at amplifiers from Sugden, Creek Audio, Heed Audio (Rotel Separates of the last 3-4years as they may be cheaper than an integrated from the first three I mentioned), Audio Refinement (though still not a great bass amp). Sugden's A21a is still the amp I would go for - it's probably the only SS amplifier that is worth buying - the Heed has potential but I need to hear it again. When I say the only one worth buying it's not that other more expensive SS amps are not better than the A21a it's just that above the Sugden's price point there are very very good tube amps - and in every case I have heard a Tube amp sounds better for less money than a SS amp. So your dealer may be on to something - but again depends on the amp.

    Speakers is a wide open field. In the under $7k price range I like speakers from Audio Note, Harbeth, Acoustic Zen, Teresonic, Sonist, Gallo, Reference 3a, King Sound, Magnepan, Dynaudio, Tannoy, Studio Electric among some others.

    The thing you have to try and think about is the "system" and not the individual components - kind of like a car - you can have a great car but put crappy tires on it and even a Ferrari is going to have trouble in a corner at 150mph. So buying something because it has a great review - both the NAD and the B&W probably got raves - isn't going to mean much if the result when combined is irritating.

  14. #14
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    No sub huh? I agree with Peabody then, you will probably need different speakers to match your taste for bass. The NAD should provide plenty. You need to do some soul searching here and try to define your personal tatses. From there you can audition gear and try to match up a system.

    I always did alot of listening at my local shops, but then shopped the used market. I am not going to drop a bunch of names on you, but rather suggest that you audition as much as you can and not rush into anything. If you know what sound you're after, the brands will reveal themselves to you as you search.

    It's a shmae you can't get a sub. My instinct in your situation would be to get a sub to augment your speakers which I am sure must have lovely midrange. I would also suggest a tubed preamp to input into the NAD, this will help voice your system and give you some warmth where it's needed. Consider your room arrangement again and think about the sub, they are remarkably small nowadays. An 8 incher would probably suit your needs just fine.

    Good luck and enjoy the hunt!!

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    The wall with the glass doors is sucking the bass out of your room.

    My neighbor had his system on a glass enclosed room and bass just was not there. He got several pcs of plywood about 3' x 3' or maybe a little bigger and wrapped them with carpet. Whenever he had a listening session, we would place the panels over the windows/doors and restore most of the bass.

  16. #16
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    I believe Hyfi has hit a home run!

    Cover the glass with something that absorbs sound. There is no other cure for a glass wall. Turning down the treble or using an equalizer will only make the direct sound dull. Plus you'll still have that glass wall reflecting the midrange and making the speakers sound bass shy.
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  17. #17
    Suspended atomicAdam's Avatar
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    I'd ask what your def of "warm and fuzzy" is.

  18. #18
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    I believe Hyfi has hit a home run!

    Cover the glass with something that absorbs sound. There is no other cure for a glass wall. Turning down the treble or using an equalizer will only make the direct sound dull. Plus you'll still have that glass wall reflecting the midrange and making the speakers sound bass shy.
    TRUE , but do the "dumb" thing and use CURTAINS instead of hauling lumber all
    over the place for a listening session.
    ITS CURTAINS FOR YOU..LADDY. ARRGE!
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  19. #19
    Suspended atomicAdam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    TRUE , but do the "dumb" thing and use CURTAINS instead of hauling lumber all
    over the place for a listening session.
    ITS CURTAINS FOR YOU..LADDY. ARRGE!
    Thick curtains will reduce high end reflections but will do absolutely nothing to keep the bass in the room.

  20. #20
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    The glass doors behind you are sending ( reflecting ) almost all the medium to high frequencies back into the room and the listening spot must be where the interference effect must add, in my humble opinion.
    I suggest that you stand in the middle of the room and clap once then listen to how the echo dies away. If the echo is sharp then you need a lot of soft furniture and heavy carpets to bring the echo to a quick and definite end.
    What happens if you open the glass doors so that they only cover half the area behind you? Is there a noticeable drop in treble and is this sound more to your taste? If so, then you need some heavy curtains to reduce the reflections when you close those doors!!
    One more trick, put a long heavily stuffed pillow behind your head in the listening sofa. This cheap trick has seriously enhanced my listening pleasure as it deadens the sound at the listening position without creating severe marital problems, because the pillow can be safely hidden away when not listening and the wife is happy.
    Finally try different speaker placements, just google it and there is enough material there to occupy an insomniac!!
    Having failed all this, I can understand your initial reaction of wanting to try different components. Just one word of extremely good advice. You just have try the set up in your room, before you buy, otherwise you will be back with the same topic.

  21. #21
    Forum Regular bjdalton1's Avatar
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    It would appear that I have a glass wall issue. I can't do curtains. The ole ball and chain won't go for that. But i can experiment a little. I can switch them with the ones in the next room. There is is no glass there. Maybe thats the ticket.
    The Wulf.
    The Wulf

  22. #22
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    While the glass wall is an issue, no one ever accused B&W's of being warm and fuzzy. I would consider new speakers. Other things to consider would be a PS Audio Digilink III DAC, Marantz SA8003 SACDP, Tube DAC or Tube Preamp-(the tube Van Alstine Gear is all warm sounding as his solid state gear.) These are all warmer sounding gear and things to consider. But I think new speakers would be the best place to start.

    For subs I would look at a Rhythmik sub- http://www.rythmikaudio.com/products.html or a Martin Logan 700 which is very musical and can be wireless.

    By the way, Atomic Adam has a used Van Alstine Amp and Preamp he is selling. They are solid state but have an airy warmer sound and the amp will pump out more power than that NAD.
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  23. #23
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    You could build an anechoic chamber, feed the speakers with VTL Wotans and the CDM 1NTs will still never be "warm and fuzzy". They can't give what they ain't got...
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks
    You could build an anechoic chamber, feed the speakers with VTL Wotans and the CDM 1NTs will still never be "warm and fuzzy". They can't give what they ain't got...
    What if we throw a wool blanket over them?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    . Maybe too far in the "warmth" area but Vandersteen could be a possibility.

    MrP, I had Vandy 2 Sigs for many years, and never felt them to be warm. Laid-back yes, but not warm.

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