False wall and audio sound

[HAVIC]

I'm thinking about how a false wall would effect the audio sound?

Reason I'm thinking about a false wall is with my tower speakers 20" deep and wanting a front projector, i feel that the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted on the wall.

I think when you put a box around the speaker the bass increases. If that is true would a false wall 2-3 feet deep have the same effect. would the false wall effect anything else?

Thanks
Greg

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I'm thinking about how a false wall would effect the audio sound?

Reason I'm thinking about a false wall is with my tower speakers 20" deep and wanting a front projector, i feel that the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted on the wall.

I think when you put a box around the speaker the bass increases. If that is true would a false wall 2-3 feet deep have the same effect. would the false wall effect anything else?

Thanks
Greg

If you are speaking of a baffle wall, that will increase bass tremedously, and get rid of some modes and nodes in the room. THX actually recommends this for THX certified rooms. I would not recommend boxing the speakers, that would create resonances that are undesireable. If you build a wall with speaker cutouts for the left, center, and right speakers with acoustical foam surrounding the speakers, you will get pretty good sound.

[Resident Loser]

...quite as simple or clear cut a some would make it seem...

Pardon my questions, as I'm just trying to understand your intent.

Are you considering actually changing the room's perimeter so the speakers will be "inset" into the resulting alcoves?

Probably not a good idea IMO. First, your loudspeakers have been designed to work best within specific placement parameters as dictated by the manufacturer...this includes(but is not limited to) distance from side walls, rear walls, other large objects and even themselves. Gross deviation from these will likely provide less-than-satisfactory results...in fact while some nodes or resonances may be attenuated, other, even more obvious and troublesome in nature, may be created. Changing the room's shape or dimensions without careful attention to the final dimensions, may produce "even multiples" which can cause standing waves and other artifacts. Tweeter dispersion characteristics may be affected and your ability to "toe-in/toe-out" for the best overall soundstage may be comprimised.

Are you planning simply a monolith wall which would result in an open area in the space behind it and the room's existing perimeter wall?

Something like this can also result in less than optimum results due to the sound corridor created.

In either case, the last thing you want to do is go through the hassles of construction in the name of aesthetics and/or room decor, only to wind up needing further room treatments such as free-standing bass traps and the like.

Unfortunately, those issues must sometimes take a back seat when dealing with quality audio reproduction... in the final analysis, you may simply be better off with the loudspeakers positioned "proud" in respect to that of the projection screen.

jimHJJ(...FWIW, just my two cents...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Installing baffle walls is a common practice in THX certified rooms. I have done at least three installations using baffle walls that I can remember(I am sure there is more), and none of the problems that the individual above me listed ever showed up. While it must be carefully designed, it is doable. Toe in is accomodated by using a laser alignment tool during installation, and backwall reflections can be reduced or eliminated by acoustical foam. The process works much like in wall speakers. I have used THX certified speakers, and some studio monitors. Keep in mind that quite a few studio have soffit or baffle mounted speakers as part of their main monitoring systems.

Personally I know of no consumer speaker manufacturer who states plainly how far from the walls to place their speakers, except Bose. I know of no speaker company that designs consumer speakers with certain distances built into their specs.

[HAVIC]

Are you planning simply a monolith wall which would result in an open area in the space behind it and the room's existing perimeter wall?

Resident loser the above is what I was thinking of.

However after sir terrance statements it seems like it can be done but with careful planning. Thanks for that info sir terrance. If I go with a front projector I will research more into it. Right now my tv is doing the job, but I like the front projector for the future. A few of my friends have them and I like what they can do.

Later

[Resident Loser]

...you think this to be a good idea? I mean, let's talk generalities here. Are you of the opinion that any speaker will benefit from this scheme?

I've seen VOT-type enclosures recessed into walls in theaters, but they are usually horn-loaded enclosures or custom work. Horn's dispersion patterns are pretty much pre-ordained by the exponential dimensions of the drivers mouth...even acoustic lenses reshape the drivers output to balance the on/off-axis response, so that's not a problem...Custom work may be of an infinite baffle design. Is that what you propose? Turning a free-standing enclosure into something else entirely? Surround it with foam panels, egg-crates or shag carpeting and you still have problems. Do you suggest we take loudspeakers with rearward firing tweeters or bass ports and eliminate those design features entirely? Howzabout mfrs. who stress placing their products along the "long" wall of the listening area. What about systems that use odd-type drivers like Walsh's? Or planars? Electrostatics? Or any other design that relies on a free-standing, open environment.

I see no baffles in any of the THX placement guidelines. But then again, I ain't in the biz and actually could care less about laser-totin' mechanical lizards. Soffits and baffles...repeat after me: designed-for...designed-for...You can get THX certified LCR units...which happen to be designed for their purpose...and that seems to be dead against the front wall...and there are still some rules-of-thumb. The Snell's, the Atlantic Technology units, the Klipsh, they are all designed for their purpose, and it seems they tend to have compensatory circuits to aid in placement near walls and or large objects...unfortunately our poster's PSB units do not...in fact he may want to check out the owners manual for his unit's and pay close attention to, maybe even read between the lines, re: Section lll, Speaker placement in relation to room boundaries, You(the owner/listener) in relation to the loudspeakers and You(ditto)in relation to the room.

While his particular mfr. does not gve measuring-tape distances, per se, there are many who do...Snell for one, B&W, Boston Acoustics, Sonus Faber, Martin Logan, Nola, Vienna Acoustics and even companies like Polk and Spendor who don't give specific dimensions, do include angles for the sweet-spot. It doesn't take a rocket-scientist to figure out distances of an equilateral triangle and pick up on the caveat that room boundaries profoundly affect the sound produced. We're not even addressing surround speakers, they seem to have very specific placement guidelines and in most cases, numbers(+/- wiggle room) ARE stated. Then of course, you have the mfrs. who rely on non-verbal iconography to get their point across.

Laser alignment tool? Do your loudspeakers "beam" to the point that such a device is any more precise than a rough guesstimate based on distance? The sound produced by good tweeters doesn't travel in a straight line. If the polar dispersion paterns are supposed to be X degrees, if we place the enclosure so the front baffle is flush with the "wall" provided for the projection screen, isn't that going to affect the sound? Early reflections and so on, acoustic foam notwithstanding. Even more so with toe-in. And don't forget, the poster wants everything to look uniform in a given plane; it's his whole raison d'etre.

jimHJJ(...and tomorrow is yet another day...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

...you think this to be a good idea? I mean, let's talk generalities here. Are you of the opinion that any speaker will benefit from this scheme?

Any acoustic suspension, or ported speaker with the port on the front can be used in a baffle wall. Ribbon, Ribbon panel, Electrostatics and other exotic speakers, probably not.

I've seen VOT-type enclosures recessed into walls in theaters, but they are usually horn-loaded enclosures or custom work. Horn's dispersion patterns are pretty much pre-ordained by the exponential dimensions of the drivers mouth...even acoustic lenses reshape the drivers output to balance the on/off-axis response, so that's not a problem...Custom work may be of an infinite baffle design. Is that what you propose? Turning a free-standing enclosure into something else entirely? Surround it with foam panels, egg-crates or shag carpeting and you still have problems. Do you suggest we take loudspeakers with rearward firing tweeters or bass ports and eliminate those design features entirely? Howzabout mfrs. who stress placing their products along the "long" wall of the listening area. What about systems that use odd-type drivers like Walsh's? Or planars? Electrostatics? Or any other design that relies on a free-standing, open environment.

If this was a serious question, I would answer it. As it stands now, its not worth answering. Perhaps you could re-write a more intelligent question I can respond to.

I see no baffles in any of the THX placement guidelines. But then again, I ain't in the biz and actually could care less about laser-totin' mechanical lizards. Soffits and baffles...repeat after me: designed-for...designed-for...You can get THX certified LCR units...which happen to be designed for their purpose...and that seems to be dead against the front wall...and there are still some rules-of-thumb. The Snell's, the Atlantic Technology units, the Klipsh, they are all designed for their purpose, and it seems they tend to have compensatory circuits to aid in placement near walls and or large objects...unfortunately our poster's PSB units do not...in fact he may want to check out the owners manual for his unit's and pay close attention to, maybe even read between the lines, re: Section lll, Speaker placement in relation to room boundaries, You(the owner/listener) in relation to the loudspeakers and You(ditto)in relation to the room.

I never said look in the THX placement guidlines did I? I am referring to THX certified ROOMS, not speaker positioning. I think you are stuck in the old school, baffles have been used on a great deal of custom theater designs. They are used in studios, THX and HPS theaters, and in hometheater installs if the customer want to place the speakers behind the screen. The speakers do not have to be THX certified to be placed behind a screen. You can choose to use a baffle, or a shadow box in mounting speakers behind a screen.

I have used klipsch speakers, M&K, JBL, older Snell, Tannoys, and PMC speakers behind a screen and mounted to a baffle wall.

While his particular mfr. does not gve measuring-tape distances, per se, there are many who do...Snell for one, B&W, Boston Acoustics, Sonus Faber, Martin Logan, Nola, Vienna Acoustics and even companies like Polk and Spendor who don't give specific dimensions, do include angles for the sweet-spot. It doesn't take a rocket-scientist to figure out distances of an equilateral triangle and pick up on the caveat that room boundaries profoundly affect the sound produced. We're not even addressing surround speakers, they seem to have very specific placement guidelines and in most cases, numbers(+/- wiggle room) ARE stated. Then of course, you have the mfrs. who rely on non-verbal iconography to get their point across.

Just because a speaker is mounted in a baffle doesn't mean it cannot be aimed at the primary listening position. Its called pre-planning, and theater design. Have you heard of such concepts?

Logic would dictate that not all speaker designs can be mounted in a baffle. I wouldn't and don't recommend exotic speakers in hometheater setups I install.

Laser alignment tool? Do your loudspeakers "beam" to the point that such a device is any more precise than a rough guesstimate based on distance? The sound produced by good tweeters doesn't travel in a straight line. If the polar dispersion paterns are supposed to be X degrees, if we place the enclosure so the front baffle is flush with the "wall" provided for the projection screen, isn't that going to affect the sound? Early reflections and so on, acoustic foam notwithstanding. Even more so with toe-in. And don't forget, the poster wants everything to look uniform in a given plane; it's his whole raison d'etre.

jimHJJ(...and tomorrow is yet another day...)

Ummm... you don't use laser alignment tools for calculating beam patterns. You use it to accurately alignment a speakers center axis to a particular point in space(preferably so both speakers center axis intersect just behind the head). This is pretty difficult to do by eye accurately.

http://www.audiorevolution.com/equip/sas/index.html

As for the rest of your question, the answer is theater design. I know this is a really new concept for you, but it is done everyday somewhere. Toe in, early reflections can all be compensated for, or eliminated. You have to carefully plan how you want everything to be positioned, and how it will look in the end.

I know you like the old tried and try way of doing things. That takes no brains or imagination to do. Hometheater can be taken from simplicity, to ultra complex. All it require is planning, planning, and more planning. Hometheater that use baffles walls with speakers recessed is not new. You will have some bass boost, but it is VERY easily tamed with a 1/3 octave eq. If a person wants to build a baffle wall to recess their speakers, they are just taking hometheater serveral steps up from the norm. Every issue you raised is easily dealt with if you understand what you are doing. When the gentlemen desides he wants to do this, I am sure he will find somebody competent to help him out.

I prefer to tackle tough hometheater issues and not sit on my butt and say it cannot be done.

All of these theater use baffle walls so the speakers can be placed behind the screen.

http://www.tktheaters.com/gallery/

This might give you an idea of how it is done properly

http://www.subcentral.ch/images/hist...l75percent.jpg

http://www.subcentral.ch/images/hist...ted_screen.jpg

Finished product

http://www.subcentral.ch/images/hist..._microperf.jpg

[Resident Loser]

Any acoustic suspension, or ported speaker with the port on the front can be used in a baffle wall. Ribbon, Ribbon panel, Electrostatics and other exotic speakers, probably not.

And yet earlier:

If you are speaking of a baffle wall, that will increase bass tremedously, and get rid of some modes and nodes in the room. THX actually recommends this for THX certified rooms. I would not recommend boxing the speakers, that would create resonances that are undesireable. If you build a wall with speaker cutouts for the left, center, and right speakers with acoustical foam surrounding the speakers, you will get pretty good sound.

Well, at least we now have a bit of specificity...your earlier response was shall we say a. er...vague, to the point of being downright misleading.

Also, That word "any"..."any"one reading your initial response replete with "THX" and "baffle walls"(love that jargon!) might actually come away from the encounter thinking, hey this guy says I can do it and it's no big deal. And what about "any" speaker enclosures whose front baffle design and cabinetry are used to minimize edge diffraction? Are we now going to defeat the designers purpose and simply surround the niche, alcove, hole, with wall treatment?...can it be done? Sure, maybe but, do try to keep your suggestions within the context of the posters plight...he's looking for a solution that will appease his sensibilites. Also, please...a wall is a wall is a wall is a wall...avoid the jargonistic "baffle" cr@p unless your intent is to, well... baffle!

If this was a serious question, I would answer it. As it stands now, its not worth answering. Perhaps you could re-write a more intelligent question I can respond to.

Well, if you could get out of your soundbite mentality and take in the paragraph as a whole, perhaps you could come up with some sort, any sort of response...after all I'm simply "parroting" your earlier suggestions...Oh, how quickly they forget! And it does seem as though something got through, particularly in light of of your new-found specificity...as in your first quote above.

I never said look in the THX placement guidlines did I? I am referring to THX certified ROOMS, not speaker positioning. I think you are stuck in the old school, baffles have been used on a great deal of custom theater designs. They are used in studios, THX and HPS theaters, and in hometheater installs if the customer want to place the speakers behind the screen. The speakers do not have to be THX certified to be placed behind a screen. You can choose to use a baffle, or a shadow box in mounting speakers behind a screen.

Infinite baffles? As old as hi-fi and maybe older, no argument...HOWEVER the drivers(mostly raw)and their specs( natural roll-off, compliance, etc.) are taken into account...Or do you refer to "baffles" used to break up room nodes...or is it apples and oranges?

Then we have "I am referring to THX certified ROOMS" and in the same breath "The speakers do not have to be THX certified". Are you trying to confuse or are you simply confused? In order to get the little "Certified HT" plaque from THX, dontcha' hafta' use certified gear? Or is it simply dependent on how much you pay your contractor?

Yeah, you can certainly buy acoustically "transparent" screens AND you can get THX cert. loudspeakers, again with compensatory circuitry, specifically for this purpose...Once again, you can put your enclosures or drivers in any configuration you chose, but they need to be either designed for the purpose or mechanically/electronically manipulated to compensate for their environment. At the risk of repeating myself, our poster HAS some gear and has a question...we aren't back at the drawing board to lay out a budget, etc.

I have used klipsch speakers, M&K, JBL, older Snell, Tannoys, and PMC speakers behind a screen and mounted to a baffle wall.

Mounted to or flush with? Were they intended for the purpose? Were our posters PSBs?

Just because a speaker is mounted in a baffle doesn't mean it cannot be aimed at the primary listening position. Its called pre-planning, and theater design. Have you heard of such concepts?

Again, the poster is looking for his speakers and his screen to lie in the same plane...yes, things can be done BUT what you suggest is irrelevant to the subject at hand, i.e. the poster's inquiry.

Logic would dictate that not all speaker designs can be mounted in a baffle. I wouldn't and don't recommend exotic speakers in hometheater setups I install.

Not being certain where on a scale of one to ten on the "exotique" meter the PSBs are, I kinda' think the "baffle concept" would not be an option.

Ummm... you don't use laser alignment tools for calculating beam patterns. You use it to accurately alignment a speakers center axis to a particular point in space(preferably so both speakers center axis intersect just behind the head). This is pretty difficult to do by eye accurately.

So I'd guess were no longer dealing in the realm of THX certification(which, as I recall, requires a minimal dB difference between ANY two spots in the soundfield)and are simply speaking of approximating the "sweet spot"...this is only difficult to do if you've never had experience with design or construction...I rely on my ability to do so, must be the artist in me.

As for your links...well, somehow I don't think we are dealing with the expenditure level required as indicated by the HTs they represent...I have the feeling it's probably a tad lower in our poster's case...getting into the fruit salad as usual?

The behind-the-screen baffle wall...geez I'm gettin tired of sayin' it but...say it with me now...designed for, designed for, designed for...The poster's PSBs, not so much...

Re: the remainder of your attempts at insult and other sundry prattle...the poster's needs are relatively simple, the solution is not quite so, there are no generalties that apply and I have merely attempted to point that significant fact out...sorry if it bursts your over-inflated ballon.

When the gentlemen desides he wants to do this, I am sure he will find somebody competent to help him out.

Which begs the question, why is he HERE? and a second one which I will spare you, given your already somewhat bruised ego.

And of course we never really did touch on this issue:

Personally I know of no consumer speaker manufacturer who states plainly how far from the walls to place their speakers, except Bose. I know of no speaker company that designs consumer speakers with certain distances built into their specs.

jimHJJ(...and much like "Niagra", I sorta' kinda' knew we wouldn't...)

[Resident Loser]

I prefer to tackle tough hometheater issues and not sit on my butt and say it cannot be done.

You really do have a reading comprehension problem, eh?

After posting my caveats, I said: In either case, the last thing you want to do is go through the hassles of construction in the name of aesthetics and/or room decor, only to wind up needing further room treatments such as free-standing bass traps and the like.

Given both perspectives, it's up to HAVIC to decide his course of action.

"...tough hometheater issues..."

An oxymoron if I ever saw one...

jimHJJ(...now pardon me, I hafta' figure out the most expeditious method of moving thirty-six workstations and their required support utilities by 10/7...without service interruption...it's called planning...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

And yet earlier:

Well, at least we now have a bit of specificity...your earlier response was shall we say a. er...vague, to the point of being downright misleading.

Doesn't look like the original poster was that confused. I personally think you are doing nothing more than fishing for a aurgument.

Also, That word "any"..."any"one reading your initial response replete with "THX" and "baffle walls"(love that jargon!) might actually come away from the encounter thinking, hey this guy says I can do it and it's no big deal. And what about "any" speaker enclosures whose front baffle design and cabinetry are used to minimize edge diffraction? Are we now going to defeat the designers purpose and simply surround the niche, alcove, hole, with wall treatment?...can it be done? Sure, maybe but, do try to keep your suggestions within the context of the posters plight...he's looking for a solution that will appease his sensibilites. Also, please...a wall is a wall is a wall is a wall...avoid the jargonistic "baffle" cr@p unless your intent is to, well... baffle!

It is not up to me to change language that is industry standard, its up to you to lean it.
Unless a person is being like you currently are(plain difficult) it is not that difficult. Being sorta behind the times regarding hometheater makes this for you more difficult than it is. Often old schoolers have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the present. We weren't speaking about alcoves, niches so I do not know why this is even being brought up, it muddies the issue. Since it is customary to completely surround the speakers with very thick acoustical foam, there isn't much interaction between the speaker and the wall itself. So much for your diffraction issue. Since you recognized that you are not in the business, I can tell that those who are alot further along the curve than you are. We are well aware if certain acoustical issue, and the are dealt with accordingly. Catch up man, catch up, there is actually light in the room. No need to stay in the dark ages.

Well, if you could get out of your soundbite mentality and take in the paragraph as a whole, perhaps you could come up with some sort, any sort of response...after all I'm simply "parroting" your earlier suggestions...Oh, how quickly they forget! And it does seem as though something got through, particularly in light of of your new-found specificity...as in your first quote above.

If I wanted a parrot, I would go to a pet store. You weren't doing anything but trying to stir up mess. This is exactly what I mean about the things you do. You are hijacking this thread, and trying to make this personal, and it will not be. If you are not going to contribute to this thread with actual information, then you intentions are pure hassle.

Infinite baffles? As old as hi-fi and maybe older, no argument...HOWEVER the drivers(mostly raw)and their specs( natural roll-off, compliance, etc.) are taken into account...Or do you refer to "baffles" used to break up room nodes...or is it apples and oranges?

I never mention infinite baffles, can you please stick to the topic at hand

Then we have "I am referring to THX certified ROOMS" and in the same breath "The speakers do not have to be THX certified". Are you trying to confuse or are you simply confused? In order to get the little "Certified HT" plaque from THX, dontcha' hafta' use certified gear? Or is it simply dependent on how much you pay your contractor?

The point I was trying to make(and am not surprised you don't get it) is that baffle walls are not a stranger to hometheater. That is it. THX is the only entity that actually certifies the practice, even though they didn't invent the concept. The room nor the equipment has to be THX certified to use a baffle wall in a installation. That is a matter of choice. My dog knows this.

Yeah, you can certainly buy acoustically "transparent" screens AND you can get THX cert. loudspeakers, again with compensatory circuitry, specifically for this purpose..

You don't need THX certified speakers, or speaker with any special circuits to do this. I have used a variety of speakers with baffle walls. You mind is just a little narrow, or is it that your hometheater education is lacking? I'll give you the choice.

.Once again, you can put your enclosures or drivers in any configuration you chose, but they need to be either designed for the purpose or mechanically/electronically manipulated to compensate for their environment. At the risk of repeating myself, our poster HAS some gear and has a question...we aren't back at the drawing board to lay out a budget, etc.

Your room is an enclosure isn't it? And doesn't it require compensation for nodes and modes? Can't you set a wide variety of speakers in your room? Is it required that speaker of a specific design go it specific kinds of rooms? The poster may have gear now, but he didn't state he was going to do this NOW, and may have different equipment when he does. Remember he says he is THINKING about it, not ready to do it now.

Mounted to or flush with? Were they intended for the purpose? Were our posters PSBs?

Did you even look at the samples I provided. Why are you asking me this stupid question? Look at the examples and you can see for yourself.

Again, the poster is looking for his speakers and his screen to lie in the same plane...yes, things can be done BUT what you suggest is irrelevant to the subject at hand, i.e. the poster's inquiry.

The poster got it, but he wasn't trying to hassle anyone. YOu are, so give me a break

Not being certain where on a scale of one to ten on the "exotique" meter the PSBs are, I kinda' think the "baffle concept" would not be an option.

Your point?

So I'd guess were no longer dealing in the realm of THX certification(which, as I recall, requires a minimal dB difference between ANY two spots in the soundfield)and are simply speaking of approximating the "sweet spot"...this is only difficult to do if you've never had experience with design or construction...I rely on my ability to do so, must be the artist in me.

Your point, or is this more I like to hear myself talk fluff?

As for your links...well, somehow I don't think we are dealing with the expenditure level required as indicated by the HTs they represent...I have the feeling it's probably a tad lower in our poster's case...getting into the fruit salad as usual?

The poster hasn't mention any budget, so how do you know what he is ready to deal with? When somebody proposes to build a baffle wall, they know it won't be a cheap affair. Please do not assume the poster is stupid.

The behind-the-screen baffle wall...geez I'm gettin tired of sayin' it but...say it with me now...designed for, designed for, designed for...The poster's PSBs, not so much..

Have you ever tried it? No you have not Say this with me, behind the times, behind the times, behind the times. I have actually done this with regular bookshelf and tower speakers. When you have even TRIED to do this, come talk to me. Otherwise you sound like a geriatric scared to learn how to do powerpoint. .

Re: the remainder of your attempts at insult and other sundry prattle...the poster's needs are relatively simple, the solution is not quite so, there are no generalties that apply and I have merely attempted to point that significant fact out...sorry if it bursts your over-inflated ballon.

I never said it was easy, and I don't think the poster thinks it is easy either. He asked if it can be done, and it can. You are just being difficult because you have never done this, and would be too scared to try.

Which begs the question, why is he HERE? and a second one which I will spare you, given your already somewhat bruised ego.

Ask him why he is here. Bruised ego, you can do that. You actually have to matter to bruise my ego. You don't matter, your irrelevant.

And of course we never really did touch on this issue:



jimHJJ(...and much like "Niagra", I sorta' kinda' knew we wouldn't...)

Based on this last quote, and the general body of you comments, this post is nothing more than harassment. This is not the off topic section, so you are expected to behave in a way that is not offensive to others. Your harassment is offensive, and I am going to ask you to stop it now. If you have some information to contribute, that is one thing. But you haven't added anything to this topic at all. If you do not have any information to add to the topic, please don't post. You are just cluttering up the site with a bunch of harassing comments, and not actually contributing. If you are going to challenge me with facts, that's one thing. If all you are going to do is clutter up the site with personal challenges, then maybe you need to step back and think about why you are here. The poster is satisfied with the answer I gave him, so this topic is pretty much closed in my book.

[Resident Loser]

...I am sticking with the issues

Doesn't look like the original poster was that confused.

I mean, let's be honest, with all due respect, this part of HAVICs question: "...i feel that the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted on the wall..."

Is hardly what I'd consider an example of lucidity, which is why I followed up with questions of my own, addressed to him.

I never mention infinite baffles, can you please stick to the topic at hand

Like the episode of "Fawlty Towers" where Basil is informed that "a Bordeau IS a claret", the type of wall with cutouts(as indicated by your links) IS an infinite baffle. It completely isolates every portion of rear hemispheric response of the drivers AND can(and does)affect the overall response of any enclosed loudspeaker system.

So quite the contrary to your inflammatory ascertions, while I AM attempting to contribute actual information to the thread...I am not "threadjacking"...your reactions to my information and advice it is beyond my control, YOU are taking it to another level with your rhetoric.

AND, at the THX site, there are those loudspeakers that do in fact have circuitry that will allow for placement in hostile environments WITHOUT the additional use of electronic or mechanical means.

And of course we never really did touch on this issue:

Originally Posted by TtT
"...Personally I know of no consumer speaker manufacturer who states plainly how far from the walls to place their speakers, except Bose. I know of no speaker company that designs consumer speakers with certain distances built into their specs...."

My contribution, attempting to providing factual information to the thread was: "...While his particular mfr. does not gve measuring-tape distances, per se, there are many who do...Snell for one, B&W, Boston Acoustics, Sonus Faber, Martin Logan, Nola, Vienna Acoustics and even companies like Polk and Spendor who don't give specific dimensions, do include angles for the sweet-spot..."

...Why are you asking me this stupid question?

There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers...

jimHJJ(...and some of us seem to have an endless supply...)

[hermanv]

The question was not really can it be done. The question is can HAVIC do it? Does he have the tools and or expertise to fix it if it doesn't work out?

Speaker enclosure design long ago deviated form a box big enough to hold it all, to real questions about dispersion and diffraction. The tools to accurately analyze and fix any problems are not trivial, some speakers will work and most will not. The bass radiation pattern changes from 360 degrees to 180 degrees, the baffle step frequency will move, voicing will change. Crossover modifications are not excluded from the possible requirements to make this work correctly.

If the original petitioner is willing to invest the time, effort and cost of perhaps doing this more than once, I agree it is possible.

To dismiss the main problem as trivial and then conversely advocate using a laser for one of the lesser exact requirements seems paradoxical.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

The question was not really can it be done. The question is can HAVIC do it? Does he have the tools and or expertise to fix it if it doesn't work out?

Easy answer for this would be to ask him.

Speaker enclosure design long ago deviated form a box big enough to hold it all, to real questions about dispersion and diffraction. The tools to accurately analyze and fix any problems are not trivial, some speakers will work and most will not. The bass radiation pattern changes from 360 degrees to 180 degrees, the baffle step frequency will move, voicing will change. Crossover modifications are not excluded from the possible requirements to make this work correctly.

Herman, I think I pointed out that some speakers would not work in this kind of setup. However, any standard acoustic suspension, or bass reflex design with the port of the front baffle will work just fine in these kinds of installations. Baffle step is not a problem because the rear wave of the speaker is totally damped by using very thick acoustical foam to fully surround the speaker. If a sub is used, then less foam is needed because deep bass frequencies are not part of the equation.

If the original petitioner is willing to invest the time, effort and cost of perhaps doing this more than once, I agree it is possible.

Apparently he is willing. He does not need to do this more than once if he plans well. Planning is the key, it teaches you the difficulty of the install.

To dismiss the main problem as trivial and then conversely advocate using a laser for one of the lesser exact requirements seems paradoxical.

I am sorry you think I dismissed the main problem, but there are over a thousand Theo Kalomirakis hometheater designs already in the field that use baffle walls to support their behind the screen speakers. The speakers are not custom made. They use speakers from M&K, klipsch, triad, JBL, Genelec, Tannoy and various other well known speaker manufacturers. Theo is not the only one that uses baffle walls either.

When one has experience doing these kinds of installs, they are very aware of the pitfalls, and possible drawbacks. You also learn how to compensate for them also.

RL is saying that it cannot be done, I say it can be done if you do it carefully, and plan well. I cannot see were I dismissed anything. I plainly stated that it can be done if done carefully. Carefully denotes that it takes work to get it right. I have done enough installs of this type to completely understand the pitfalls, but I also understand that you can sometimes make things more difficult than they really are.

If you think that accurately aiming a speaker is just small potatoes, then try to get it accurate within a millimeter by eye. Nothing is unimportant when somebody is paying for quality. Laser pointers are just as important as eq's, they all work together to get quality.

[HAVIC]

The question was not really can it be done. The question is can HAVIC do it? Does he have the tools and or expertise to fix it if it doesn't work out?

Actually the questions was what are the effects on audio? I seems that with proper planning, it can be achieved. Whether I like how it sounds after is unfortunately a question that can only be answered after an endeavor like this is taken.

Based on some of the comments by sir terrence about front ported speakers, which mine are, lead me to believe it can be achieved.

I'm still not sure if I will go this way and would ask a lot more questions in the future to determine if I need professional help or if I can do it on my own. My current setup with a RPTV does not warrant the need for the false wall, but do to the nature of my tv, component video only, I was considering a front projector in the future. This prompted the idea of a false wall, so I decided to inquirer.

Thanks everyone for you input as I have realized it is a bigger project than just sticking them in the false wall and it will weigh heavily on my decision for the next tv/projector I get.

Greg

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

...I am sticking with the issues

right

I mean, let's be honest, with all due respect, this part of HAVICs question: "...i feel that the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted on the wall..."

Is hardly what I'd consider an example of lucidity, which is why I followed up with questions of my own, addressed to him.

I understood what he was trying to say. My question is why are you questioning his licidity? Sometimes people are thinking one thing, and their hands type another.

Like the episode of "Fawlty Towers" where Basil is informed that "a Bordeau IS a claret", the type of wall with cutouts(as indicated by your links) IS an infinite baffle. It completely isolates every portion of rear hemispheric response of the drivers AND can(and does)affect the overall response of any enclosed loudspeaker system.

I am quite aware of what a infinite baffle is, and I do know what it does to a speakers response. I also know that just placing a speaker in ANY room also changes that speakers response. So what the point? Both need some kind of correction, right? One is no worse than the other, it just a different way of mounting speakers for hometheater.

So quite the contrary to your inflammatory ascertions, while I AM attempting to contribute actual information to the thread...I am not "threadjacking"...your reactions to my information and advice it is beyond my control, YOU are taking it to another level with your rhetoric.

You stole my jack and hit me. You scratch my eye. You hit me with a toy. This is what you sound like when you go on these rants. Immature, really immature. You do not know what level I am at, you can neither see my face, or hear my voice, right?

AND, at the THX site, there are those loudspeakers that do in fact have circuitry that will allow for placement in hostile environments WITHOUT the additional use of electronic or mechanical means.

The circuitry is in the controller, not on the speaker. You can choose to engage or disengage it. Point? I know of no THX speaker with boundary compensation controls on them. Can you point me out a THX certified speaker system that does?

And of course we never really did touch on this issue:

Originally Posted by TtT
"...Personally I know of no consumer speaker manufacturer who states plainly how far from the walls to place their speakers, except Bose. I know of no speaker company that designs consumer speakers with certain distances built into their specs...."

My contribution, attempting to providing factual information to the thread was: "...While his particular mfr. does not gve measuring-tape distances, per se, there are many who do...Snell for one, B&W, Boston Acoustics, Sonus Faber, Martin Logan, Nola, Vienna Acoustics and even companies like Polk and Spendor who don't give specific dimensions, do include angles for the sweet-spot..."

Angles for sweet spot can be accomodated, the tools are there. You just don't know about them do you? Lotsa stuff you don't know about high end hometheater. This is to be expected since you admitted you are not in the business, are not THX trained or certified, CEDIA trained or certified, never done a single install, and are not educated enough in high end installs. Education and experience tend to teach you things that the less educated and experience will not know. Not a slight, but a fact.

There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers...

Are you a man?. When you ask that question in front of what is obviously a man, its a stupid question. You asked a stupid question, I didn't have a stupid response for you.

jimHJJ(...and some of us seem to have an endless supply...)

I am sure you say that in the mirror every day.

[hermanv]

I seems that with proper planning, it can be achieved.

Planning and some measurements. I encourage people to learn and experiment after all for most of us this is a hobby. At the same time it's neccessary to understand that people have devoted lifetimes to making speakers better, it is not a 1 hour task.

Baffle step is not a problem because the rear wave of the speaker is totally damped by using very thick acoustical foam to fully surround the speaker. If a sub is used, then less foam is needed because deep bass frequencies are not part of the equation.

One of us is missing something, surrounding the rear housing of a speaker mounted in a wall with heavy foam would accomplish little. There is no back wave because the sound is prevented from wrapping around the existing housing by the new front baffle (the new wall). Or doesn't the speaker fit exactly in the hole? Baffle step is that frequency where the wavelength is such that the sound becomes uni-directional rather than omnidirectional (i.e has a sperical apparent source) as a woofer in a box does at very low frequencies. This affects the launch of low frequencies into the room. With a very large flat face (the new wall) the frequency where there is a gain change due to the way the woofer couples to air will be different. Some may find it pleasing but the speaker response will no longer be flat. I've done exactly enough speaker design work to know that to get a flat woofer response in an arbitrary room is one of the harder stunts to pull off.

I'm not a big fan of equalizers, but that is one possible solution. Considering the few designs by Theo I've seen, the added cost of even a first class digital equalizer would be lost in the noise of money being spent.

If you think that accurately aiming a speaker is just small potatoes, then try to get it accurate within a millimeter by eye. Nothing is unimportant when somebody is paying for quality. Laser pointers are just as important as eq's, they all work together to get quality.

There is nothing wrong with basic accuracy but I found the juxtaposition of precise aiming yet no mention of equipment or analyzers or expected effort to re-equalize the speakers odd. Although some speakers have a narrow sweet spot, I've never owned one that needed adjustment to the nearest millimeter. If one owned such a speaker could only one person watch TV?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

One of us is missing something, surrounding the rear housing of a speaker mounted in a wall with heavy foam would accomplish little. There is no back wave because the sound is prevented from wrapping around the existing housing by the new front baffle (the new wall). Or doesn't the speaker fit exactly in the hole? Baffle step is that frequency where the wavelength is such that the sound becomes uni-directional rather than omnidirectional (i.e has a sperical apparent source) as a woofer in a box does at very low frequencies. This affects the launch of low frequencies into the room. With a very large flat face (the new wall) the frequency where there is a gain change due to the way the woofer couples to air will be different. Some may find it pleasing but the speaker response will no longer be flat. I've done exactly enough speaker design work to know that to get a flat woofer response in an arbitrary room is one of the harder stunts to pull off.

No actually we agree here. I did mention to the original poster that there would be a bass boost, he also recognized that and said so in his original post. With installs I have done, the bass was directed to the sub, so this was largely not a problem. However, no loudspeaker exibits a flat response in any room, so it is a given that some correction would be needed in these kinds of setups. If you use a shadow box, then you should wrap the speaker completely with acoustical foam as there really is no wall in front of the speakers. You use acoustical foam behind the screen to absorb any reflection from the speaker off the screen and back toward the speaker. That you do whether there is a wall there, or not.

I'm not a big fan of equalizers, but that is one possible solution. Considering the few designs by Theo I've seen, the added cost of even a first class digital equalizer would be lost in the noise of money being spent.

First, a first class digital eq is not really necessary, as all of my installations used subwoofers. I use 1/3 octave graphic eq's for the mains, and digital parametric eq's for the bass. Works just fine.

There is nothing wrong with basic accuracy but I found the juxtaposition of precise aiming yet no mention of equipment or analyzers or expected effort to re-equalize the speakers odd. Although some speakers have a narrow sweet spot, I've never owned one that needed adjustment to the nearest millimeter. If one owned such a speaker could only one person watch TV?

In my response to whateverhisnameis, I did mention compensation for bass boost. Maybe it got lost in all of the bull. The poster knew that some bass boost would occur, so I thought is was a given that acoustical correction would be needed.

I prefer that my aim be perfect rather than approximate. Just a preference of mine.

[hermanv]

First, a first class digital eq is not really necessary, as all of my installations used subwoofers. I use 1/3 octave graphic eq's for the mains, and digital parametric eq's for the bass. Works just fine.

Ah ha! Found the disconnect. I have slowly been able to upgrade my systems to pretty good stuff. Equipment made by people who have reputations for first class (we'll maybe second class ) equipment. For the most part I am loath to attempt to improve on this stuff. At the price points I've paid one can and should expect that there is no free low hanging fruit.

Things may have changed but the analog 1/3 octave equalizers I've heard in the past sounded like crap. They were so far from acceptable that I've never bothered to listen again. Perhaps a mistake, but I'm happy in my world.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Ah ha! Found the disconnect. I have slowly been able to upgrade my systems to pretty good stuff. Equipment made by people who have reputations for first class (we'll maybe second class ) equipment. For the most part I am loath to attempt to improve on this stuff. At the price points I've paid one can and should expect that there is no free low hanging fruit.

Things may have changed but the analog 1/3 octave equalizers I've heard in the past sounded like crap. They were so far from acceptable that I've never bothered to listen again. Perhaps a mistake, but I'm happy in my world.

Alesis makes a damn good analog constant q equalizers. As does Rane. Both make extremely well made eq's that are a value. They are ultra quiet, pretty flexible, and totally reliable. I used Alesis in my studio for years and got their last version before they went all digital.

[Resident Loser]

I understood what he was trying to say. My question is why are you questioning his licidity? Sometimes people are thinking one thing, and their hands type another.

As did I, or I'd never have responded...and I also requested clarification of his premise...and while, as in the case of "licidity", the odd misplaced finger is excusable, the concept of "... i feel that the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted on the wall..." is a bit much, and while he may or may not be confused, my intent has been to minimize any confusion caused by the answers provided.

I am quite aware of what a infinite baffle is, and I do know what it does to a speakers response. I also know that just placing a speaker in ANY room also changes that speakers response. So what the point? Both need some kind of correction, right? One is no worse than the other, it just a different way of mounting speakers for hometheater

So what is the point? indeed...One point is, when you provide a link to a jpg, you really should include some of the more salient info contained in scenes' description...you provided pictures of a wall or baffle or whatever you might like to refer to it as, in support for your many contentions...HOWEVER...as a follow-up I visited the Sub South site and lo and behold, the transducers that were installed were Triad InWall Gold...in fact while they can be tilted up and down to tweek their dispersion(gee, that sounds like trial and error to me...anyone else?) they don't allow for toe-in, tis' fixed...so now repeat again with me...designed for...designed for...designed for a SPECIFIC USE...no simple JBLs or Tannoys or any-old-bookshelf-or-towers that just happened to be lying about.

The circuitry is in the controller, not on the speaker. You can choose to engage or disengage it. Point? I know of no THX speaker with boundary compensation controls on them. Can you point me out a THX certified speaker system that does?

Well, howzabout these for a start...they are ALL THX certified. So, in no particular order, knowing full well you will find some self-serving reason to dismiss them:

Snell XA60, XA90, XA1900 and that's just the freestanders

Atlantic Technologies 4200, 6200 and 8200

The entire Sonance Cinema Series, save for the entry-level model

M&K S-150 THX Ultra's and I believe some of their LCRs are also so equipped.

There are others if memory serves, but while they may be directed toward the HT crowd, they aren't THX certified...in fact quite a few manufacturers seem to have curtailed their licensing payments a, er...agreements and no longer produce the models listed on the THX site.

And just as an aside to the general public there is a THX site which does have a wealth of info re: the subject at hand...products, placement guidelines, certification parameters...lookee here:

www.thx.com

Angles for sweet spot can be accomodated, the tools are there. You just don't know about them do you? Lotsa stuff you don't know about high end hometheater. This is to be expected since you admitted you are not in the business, are not THX trained or certified, CEDIA trained or certified, never done a single install, and are not educated enough in high end installs. Education and experience tend to teach you things that the less educated and experience will not know. Not a slight, but a fact.

Which really means very little...it ain't rocket science(in fact rocket science ain't all that big a deal)...particularly since the initial post had to do with how a specific scenario would affect the overall sound...you are the one who chose to bring the elephant into the room by typing THX, as though it really payed any part whatsoever. Other than to make it seem that you might have any better insight into the answer than anyone else who might dare to contribute to HAVICs information base...why shades of JR!!!

You only really have to know the audio basics...there are facets of the hobby governed by the laws of physics which will never change. Couple that with a modicum of common sense and it's sorta' like knowing how to orienteer with topos and a compass compared to using GPS...whatta' ya' do when the batteries run out?

...its a stupid question. You asked a stupid question, I didn't have a stupid response for you...

Used up your monthly allotment. did you? Pity for HAVIC it didn't occur earlier. Well, be of good cheer, it's almost Oct. 1st, and I'm sure there's more in store...and before you get all hissy-p!ssy, do recall all of your previous attempts at insult.

I don't claim to have any answers. The thing I do, and have always done on this site is to let all those "sheeple" in on the big secret...there are two sides to every coin and there are some folks who can't tolerate that fact and I think it's just terrible.

jimHJJ(...all sorts of info on the web...ya' jus' gotz to look fer it...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

As did I, or I'd never have responded...and I also requested clarification of his premise...and while, as in the case of "licidity", the odd misplaced finger is excusable, the concept of "... i feel that the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted on the wall..." is a bit much, and while he may or may not be confused, my intent has been to minimize any confusion caused by the answers provided.

It may be a bit much to you, but not to him. If he is asking the question, then a simple(or complex) answer is all that is required, no psychological evaluation is necessary. It is his speakers, and his future projector, right? Isn't it up to him to decided what looks right for him? I wasn't confused, I understood what he was trying to say, but of course I wasn't trying to be a rear orifice either?

So what is the point? indeed...One point is, when you provide a link to a jpg, you really should include some of the more salient info contained in scenes' description...you provided pictures of a wall or baffle or whatever you might like to refer to it as, in support for your many contentions...HOWEVER...as a follow-up I visited the Sub South site and lo and behold, the transducers that were installed were Triad InWall Gold...in fact while they can be tilted up and down to tweek their dispersion(gee, that sounds like trial and error to me...anyone else?) they don't allow for toe-in, tis' fixed...so now repeat again with me...designed for...designed for...designed for a SPECIFIC USE...no simple JBLs or Tannoys or any-old-bookshelf-or-towers that just happened to be lying about.

I was not focusing on the speakers themselves, but the baffle wall. I am sorry that you have misplaced your focus. Now let's deal with the speaker issue.

Here is a link to at theater that uses regular boxed speakers(powered version) mounted to a baffle wall behind the screen. Notice it does not say the speaker is for wall mounting, its a studio monitor. In other words it was NOT designed specifically for baffle mounting

The theater;

http://www.wsdg.com/portfolio/portfol.php?SL=ht&BL=1#

http://www.wsdg.com/popup.php?POP=ch.../home_theaters

The speaker

http://www.genelec.com/products/1032a/1032a.php

Here is another theater with baffle mounted speakers. It features the JBLsynthesis two speaker system. This speaker system was also not designed specifically for baffle mounting.

The theater;

http://www.wsdg.com/popup.php?POP=ro.../home_theaters



The speakers;

http://www.jblsynthesis.com/products...=US&Region=USA

http://www.jblsynthesis.com/products...=US&Region=USA

So as you see, your theory that a speaker must be designed specifically for the purpose of baffle mounting is simple not true. The speakers I am currently using in my hometheater used to be mounted behind a baffle wall. This is nothing more than an old school narrow minded thought process that is outdated and long forgotton. Catch up with the technology!

Well, howzabout these for a start...they are ALL THX certified. So, in no particular order, knowing full well you will find some self-serving reason to dismiss them:

Snell XA60, XA90, XA1900 and that's just the freestanders

Great speakers, however, the boundary compensation circuit provides only one curve, and is designed for boundaries that are close to the speakers, but not for behind a baffle wall. If we were to remain in context to this thread, we are specifically talking about boundary compensation circuits that work on a baffle wall, not for in front of walls. Just pointing out that these speakers have compensation circuit, but not specifically associated with the topic we are discussing is meaningless. The circuit is simular to the one that is found in THX controllers, and are supposed to be engaged when a non THX controller is used(it would be redundant otherwise). Not dismissing the speakers, just your understanding of what the compensation circuit can and cannot do. Baffle wall mounting will produce a very different frequency response than a speaker in a cabinet, or sitting close to a rear or side wall..

Atlantic Technologies 4200, 6200 and 8200

See above, same concept.

The entire Sonance Cinema Series, save for the entry-level model

These speakers are perfect for the task, however I see no boudary compensation circuits on them. I also do not see any information that would lead me to believe they have them.

M&K S-150 THX Ultra's and I believe some of their LCRs are also so equipped.

VERY familar with this speaker, and I know for a fact there are no boundary compensation circuits on this speaker. There is a radiation pattern control for wide or narrow dispersion for the tweeter. The speaker is perfect for baffle mounting, Eddie Murphy uses these in his hometheater. As far as accomodating toe in, I get my mounts that allow both up and down, and left right made for me.

There are others if memory serves, but while they may be directed toward the HT crowd, they aren't THX certified...in fact quite a few manufacturers seem to have curtailed their licensing payments a, er...agreements and no longer produce the models listed on the THX site.

Would you care to list the others? You memory doesn't serve me.

And just as an aside to the general public there is a THX site which does have a wealth of info re: the subject at hand...products, placement guidelines, certification parameters...lookee here:

www.thx.com

There is a wealth of information there if you own THX products.

Which really means very little...it ain't rocket science(in fact rocket science ain't all that big a deal)...particularly since the initial post had to do with how a specific scenario would affect the overall sound...you are the one who chose to bring the elephant into the room by typing THX, as though it really payed any part whatsoever. Other than to make it seem that you might have any better insight into the answer than anyone else who might dare to contribute to HAVICs information base...why shades of JR!!!

I chose to bring THX into the picture because they advocate baffle walls for behind the screen mounting of speakers. That IMO lends credence to the practice, as they have gone through a great deal of experimentation regarding the practice for hometheater, much more than anyone else except CEDIA. Your concerns listed have already been recognized and dealt with. You say it couldn't be done without speakers designed strictly for that practice, I have proven that is already has been done, and in over a thousand TK installations all over the world. TK does not use inwalls for the front speakers, they use various box speakers just like the JBL system, and the Genelec speakers.

I certainly have better insight into the practice than you have. I am both THX and CEDIA trained and certified, are you?

You only really have to know the audio basics...there are facets of the hobby governed by the laws of physics which will never change. Couple that with a modicum of common sense and it's sorta' like knowing how to orienteer with topos and a compass compared to using GPS...whatta' ya' do when the batteries run out?

Based on this comment, I suppose you can design, install, and calibrate a high end hometheater right now with the knowledge you currently have. Riiiiight! Sure you can! I am willing to bet you don't even know how to interpret the results of a real time analyzer.

Used up your monthly allotment. did you? Pity for HAVIC it didn't occur earlier. Well, be of good cheer, it's almost Oct. 1st, and I'm sure there's more in store...and before you get all hissy-p!ssy, do recall all of your previous attempts at insult.

My allotment didn't run out, my desire did. When you have to answer so many stupid questions in such a short time period from one particular person(RL) its a drain. Insult you, don't have to do it. Your a pro all by yourself.

I don't claim to have any answers. The thing I do, and have always done on this site is to let all those "sheeple" in on the big secret...there are two sides to every coin and there are some folks who can't tolerate that fact and I think it's just terrible.

jimHJJ(...all sorts of info on the web...ya' jus' gotz to look fer it...)

The web is also full of misinformation and junk. And you are correct, there are always two sides to everything. Its terrible you have presented the more weak side. Sometime you don't have to claim anything, the arrogant attitude speaks loads. I am sure that posters on this site appreciated you calling them sheeple. I supposed you think you are a shepherd, although I would never follow you. I am not a sheeple so that might explain why.

[Resident Loser]

...on my team...as I've said I treat my forays into cyberspace as learning experiences...so I took a look at your links...viola!

Re: the Chiu and Paz HTs: the Genelec 1032s are...(listen and repeat) designed for...designed for...designed for...Multiple placement options and environments. Did you somehow miss the two lo-freq compensation switches? I didn't, there right there in the manual...congrats, would you like a Band-aid for that wound to your foot?

Re: the May's Wilson X-1s and Watt Puppies: you aint stickin' them in walls, cutouts, baffles...he!! they won't fit in some rooms...and BTW they require installation and placement as per the Wilson installation guidelines, by a qualified dealer/rep/tech. Ain't just stickin' them any ol' place.

Re; The Rowley's JBL synthesis lls: It is a multi-component system with the built in flexibility for placement in nearly any environment...seven-ch eq, all the bells and whistles...In fact their system controller switches driver compliment depending on the media being sourced! Of course one must also be prepared to to pay for the custom designed-mahoghany Helmholtz resonators as they might be required...

Not dismissing the speakers, just your understanding of what the compensation circuit can and cannot do. Baffle wall mounting will produce a very different frequency response than a speaker in a cabinet, or sitting close to a rear or side wall.

I'm sorry...since you've obviously forgotten, you said:

I know of no THX speaker with boundary compensation controls on them. Can you point me out a THX certified speaker system that does?

And so I did...what those compensation citcuits can or cannot do is COMPLETLY IRRELEVANT to the subject at hand.

Great speakers, however, the boundary compensation circuit provides only one curve, and is designed for boundaries that are close to the speakers, but not for behind a baffle wall. If we were to remain in context to this thread, we are specifically talking about boundary compensation circuits that work on a baffle wall, not for in front of walls. Just pointing out that these speakers have compensation circuit, but not specifically associated with the topic we are discussing is meaningless. The circuit is simular to the one that is found in THX controllers, and are supposed to be engaged when a non THX controller is used(it would be redundant otherwise).

No, we are specifically talking about HAVICs situation...not what he may dream of someday owning or any othe flights-of-fancy provided by you...Baffles(infinite or otherwise) weren't part of the subject nor were any THX considerations until YOU brought them up...he wants a place to hang his screen, when and if he gets one...period. Amen.

Re: other bits of your damage control:

Check the M&K site...you have to look, but you CAN access .pdf downloads of the manuals...no simple pictures, you have to read through the text...nearly anyone can do it...nearly...

The THX site has a wealth of info whether or not you have THX certified gear...it's just another database, no smoke, no mirrors, no secret handshakes or hushed conversation in dark marble halls...

I chose to bring THX into the picture because they advocate baffle walls for behind the screen mounting of speakers.

IF the gear is designed for it...your "baffles" will not accomodate HAVICs PSBs...NOR the Wilson's...NOR the flagship JBL Synthesis models which have rear-firing bass ports...and to clarify again, HAVIC wants to build a wall to hang his screen BETWEEN his loudspeakers not in front of them.

I certainly have better insight into the practice than you have. I am both THX and CEDIA trained and certified, are you?

And this somehow is supposed to impress? I'm confronted with unfamiliar SOTA gear(non-audio) in my job...A few manuals and some specialized some test gear? Much ado about nothing...unless your intent is to polish your buttons...There are trained and certified techs/engineers who work on the space shuttle...two of 'em blew up if you'll recall.

Now, I ask you...what does any of this to do re: HAVICs question?...if all you wish to do is flex your muscles and strut your THX stuff...well, IMO, you have failed...and I realize you could care one wit less of my opinion. I think you are a sham and you have nearly everyone bamboozled...the emperor has no clothes and no one should pay attention to the man behind the curtain...the great and powerful OZ has mis-spoken! Yet again.

I wasn't trying to be a rear orifice either?

But(t) somehow you always succeed!

jimHJJ(...you may want to have a doctor look at that foot...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

...on my team...as I've said I treat my forays into cyberspace as learning experiences...so I took a look at your links...viola!

Re: the Chiu and Paz HTs: the Genelec 1032s are...(listen and repeat) designed for...designed for...designed for...Multiple placement options and environments. Did you somehow miss the two lo-freq compensation switches? I didn't, there right there in the manual...congrats, would you like a Band-aid for that wound to your foot?

Yea, maybe I should keep my foot outta your butt!

Once again, those boundary compensation switches only help if the speaker is located IN FRONT OF THE WALL, not behind it or in it..You have a high frequency tilt control(hot helpful) bass tilt control(can't be used in a baffle situation which already boost bass), and roll off control(which presents one curve, not many and is not helpful) If you knew you stuff as much as you think you do, you would be dangerous. The is no speaker on the market that makes boundary compensation circuit for BEHIND THE BAFFLE USE, that is why equalization is necessary. Once again you are tyring to muddy the water. Here are your words;

designed for a SPECIFIC USE

That is not the same as mutiple use is it?

Re: the May's Wilson X-1s and Watt Puppies: you aint stickin' them in walls, cutouts, baffles...he!! they won't fit in some rooms...and BTW they require installation and placement as per the Wilson installation guidelines, by a qualified dealer/rep/tech. Ain't just stickin' them any ol' place.

I wouldn't use those speakers in my installations anyway so what't the point? Why would you mention this speaker when the poster doesn't even own one? What would you castigate me for mentioning THX, and in the same thread you mention Wilson? Could you be just a little less hyprocritical?

Re; The Rowley's JBL synthesis lls: It is a multi-component system with the built in flexibility for placement in nearly any environment...seven-ch eq, all the bells and whistles...In fact their system controller switches driver compliment depending on the media being sourced! Of course one must also be prepared to to pay for the custom designed-mahoghany Helmholtz resonators as they might be required...

One again no mention of SPECIFIC anywhere huh? Thanks for the description of the synthesis system, to bad you are about 4 years to late.

I'm sorry...since you've obviously forgotten, you said:

Context RL, context. We are discussing baffle mounting, so only boundary compensation circuits that apply within the context of the debate would applicable. Since we are talking about that, and not front of wall placement, your examples are faulty. Do you want to try again?

And so I did...what those compensation citcuits can or cannot do is COMPLETLY IRRELEVANT to the subject at hand.

I do believe that we are talking about baffle mounting the speakers, so whether or not the speakers compensation circuit work in that environment is relevant. Since they cannot, the circuits are usless, and irrelevant to the task at hand.

No, we are specifically talking about HAVICs situation...not what he may dream of someday owning or any othe flights-of-fancy provided by you...Baffles(infinite or otherwise) weren't part of the subject nor were any THX considerations until YOU brought them up...he wants a place to hang his screen, when and if he gets one...period. Amen.

Reason I'm thinking about a false wall is with my tower speakers 20" deep and wanting a front projector, i feel that the towers will look out of place between a screen mounted on the wall.

I am thinking means he has not made a commitment to do it now, or later for that matter.

but I like the front projector for the future.

That future could be tomorrow, or twenty years from now.

Now who's comprehension is suffering?. He was not looking for a place to hand his screen, he was talking about mounting his speakers in a false wall(I call it a baffle). Do you believe that the thrust of his question was where to hang the screen, or mounting his speakers in the baffle? Come on RL get it right man.

His equipment may or may not be the same in the future. What you call a wall, I call a baffle. Baffle is what is used in the installation trade, wall is used by joe six packs. What the original poster proposed has already been done, I did it myself with my own speakers. Your lack of design and installation experience doesn't allow your mind to understand the concept. I have used 5 Klipsch RF-7 mounted in a baffle wall behind a screen, speakers that are larger than the original posters with excllent results. The only problem that I had was a elevated response in the mid bass and lower midrange which was easily corrected using 1/3 octave graphic eq. You are a can't do person, I am a can do. If a RF-7 can be adopted for the purpose, his PSB's can to.

Re: other bits of your damage control:

Check the M&K site...you have to look, but you CAN access .pdf downloads of the manuals...no simple pictures, you have to read through the text...nearly anyone can do it...nearly...

Umm, maybe you need to read the manual again. The S5000THX is the speaker with the normal and special switch, not the S-150 speaker that you mention. The S5000 is a two tweeter design, the S-150 is a three tweeter design. Get your fact straight. There is no boundary compensation circuit for the S-150. Do you wanna try again? I know that without even going to the site.

The THX site has a wealth of info whether or not you have THX certified gear...it's just another database, no smoke, no mirrors, no secret handshakes or hushed conversation in dark marble halls...

The examples on the THX site of speaker setups is unique the the THX design. It does not comform to the industry adopted ITU-B775 setup widely used in most hometheater setups. Their setups are designed to compensate for using mismatched speakers in the front and rear hemisphere(monopole fronts, dipole rears). EX is necessary because dipoles cannot place a phantom image between the rear speakers. The ITU standards DO support phantom images across the rear soundfield. As I said earlier, they have a wealth of information if you own THX certified products. The site is dedicated to pushing THX certified products. Since you seem to know it all, I am surprised you don't know this.

IF the gear is designed for it...your "baffles" will not accomodate HAVICs PSBs...NOR the Wilson's...NOR the flagship JBL Synthesis models which have rear-firing bass ports...and to clarify again, HAVIC wants to build a wall to hang his screen BETWEEN his loudspeakers not in front of them.

He wants to put his speakers within a baffle wall, it can be done, it HAS been done. It is up to you to disprove what has already been done. Can you do that?

Secondly did I read this right, did you say that the JBL synthesis system cannot be used in a baffle wall setup, and the synthesis system has rear mounted ports? Wooooo. Perhaps you need to update your coke bottle bottom glasses man. All of the synthesis speaker system locate their port on the front baffle of the speaker, not the rear.
The K2 speaker in the hercules system does locate its ports in the rear, but it is crossed over at 80hz to the sub which is well above the frequencies were the ports contribution kicks in.

If you line up your cursor on each system, you can see the installations that these speakers have already been installed in. As you can see, all of the speakers have been placed BEHIND the screen. Each of these setups are TK designs. Every TK design uses a baffle wall. So to say the the ANY speaker in the synthesis line cannot be used in a baffle wall system is a lie. Amen!

http://www.jblsynthesis.com/products...=US&Region=USA

And this somehow is supposed to impress? I'm confronted with unfamiliar SOTA gear(non-audio) in my job...A few manuals and some specialized some test gear? Much ado about nothing...unless your intent is to polish your buttons...There are trained and certified techs/engineers who work on the space shuttle...two of 'em blew up if you'll recall.

The two blew up because of equipment failure, not tech failure. A crack in a seal caused by cold weather, and a tile knocking a hole in the side of the ship is not a failure of the techs, but a failure of the equipment.

Not looking to impress, just stating facts. I am sorry you don't like the facts, but facts are facts jack! We are not talking NON audio, we ARE talking audio. Not the same thing as your job, so therefore any comparison you make are apples and oranges. Every install is pretty unique, so therefore no manual is really helpful. A untrained person like yourself trying to install a high end hometheater with a couple of books and test equipment you don't understand is a receipe for diaster. Plus, no one would hire you anyway with just book knowledge.

Now, I ask you...what does any of this to do re: HAVICs question?...if all you wish to do is flex your muscles and strut your THX stuff...well, IMO, you have failed...and I realize you could care one wit less of my opinion. I think you are a sham and you have nearly everyone bamboozled.

Well,. I think you are a stupid old man who doesn't know crap about hometheater installs. Now that we have gotten the personal stuff out of the way can we get back to the subject matter?

..the emperor has no clothes and no one should pay attention to the man behind the curtain...the great and powerful OZ has mis-spoken! Yet again.[/quote]

This sounds like nothing more than jealous rantings, and someone disperately grasping at straws. Oh and you are right, I could care less of your opinion. Why would I? You have never installed one hometheater. Why should one that has listen to someone that hasn't?

My question to you is this; How do you know something cannot work if you never tried it? How do you know if something tastes good if you never sampled it? How do you know anything if you have never studied it? If you have never tried something you are not qualified to say it cannot work. I have used the RF-7 by klipsch sucessfully in a baffle wall setup. Aside from the horn loading of the mid/tweets, the PSB is a tower speaker just like it. It has been mounted in a baffle wall, so why can't the PSB's? If a Genelec monitor, or a M&K S-150P speaker can be mounted in a baffle wall(in one of Lucasfilm's editing suites), then why can't a PSB? All kinds of speakers have been mounted behind a baffle wall, why can't the PSB?

But(t) somehow you always succeed!

If I did, I learned from you. You are the biggest in the business.

jimHJJ(...you may want to have a doctor look at that foot...)

You may want a doctor to look at your foot AND your mouth.

[Resident Loser]

designed for a SPECIFIC USE

That is not the same as mutiple use is it?

Well, once again you reveal your inability to deal in the abstract...not that this is really all that abstract. Pity you can't see Genelec's flexibility AS it's purpose. It's specific use(in this case) IS it's ability to be used in various conditions...HAVICs PSBs are what they are and that's all that they are...toot!...toot!

Re: the Wilson's...they were included in YOUR link. I mentioned them because they, like the PSBs in question, are also what they are...do try to keep up.

Re: the JBLs...again, it's YOUR link , so if you have a problem with its vintage, you probably shouldn't have used it. Much like the the Genelec's, their purpose is the flexibility afforded by the multi-component system approach...I don't see HAVICs PSBs in the same frame of reference.

Re: "the future"...sorry, I let my membership in the KreskinKlub lapse. I'm trying to deal with a hypothetical situation based on at least some bit of tangible reality. Will HAVIC get his new projector? Will he build a wall for the screen? Will he decide to upgrade/change his loudspeakers? Will the point be moot? Tune in tomorrow and find out...

If you want to dump vagaries atop possibilities and/or probabilities, be my guest...talk about grasping at straws... Given that he has listed his current gear with no mention of further upgrade...I'm gonna' take an edumacated guess that it ain't gonna' happen. Even if it does, contemplating or actual making any structural changes based on his current lineup will most likely have little or no bearing on his future choices. This alone renders the entire execise highly debatable.

Yea, maybe I should keep my foot outta your butt!
If you knew you stuff as much as you think you do, you would be dangerous.
Well,. I think you are a stupid old man who doesn't know crap about hometheater installs.

Hey, ericl...and this is a moderator...

And TtT...sometime ago in another thread you lamented the fact of being passed over due to some issues you percieved as racial in nature...the more you post, the more the real reasons become obvious..

jimHJJ(...color is only skin deep, being a dumb $h!t cuts straight to the bone...)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Well, once again you reveal your inability to deal in the abstract...not that this is really all that abstract. Pity you can't see Genelec's flexibility AS it's purpose. It's specific use(in this case) IS it's ability to be used in various conditions...HAVICs PSBs are what they are and that's all that they are...toot!...toot!

Your operative word is SPECIFIC, not flexibility, not adaptability. Specific denotes that the speaker only works in a predictable way when placed in ONE type of environment, not many. Its disengenious for you to try and change now what you said before. Specific is specific, flexible is flexible. You cannot turn a circle into a square no matter how hard you try.

[qoute]Re: the Wilson's...they were included in YOUR link. I mentioned them because they, like the PSBs in question, are also what they are...do try to keep up.[/quote]

I never mentioned Wilson, so you shouldn't have. You chided me for mentioning THX even when it is much more related to this topic than wilson speakers. Stay focused, stay on topic.

Re: the JBLs...again, it's YOUR link , so if you have a problem with its vintage, you probably shouldn't have used it. Much like the the Genelec's, their purpose is the flexibility afforded by the multi-component system approach...I don't see HAVICs PSBs in the same frame of reference.

I have no problem with my link, you do have a problem with your eyes. Does all of the synthesis line have ports in the rear as you assert? No they don't. One model does, and if set up according to standards, it doesn't make a difference. M&K weren't made to be placed behind a screen or soffit, but they do just fine in that position, and have already been installed as such. Klipsch speakers were not designed to be behind a screen or soffitt, but they have been sucessfully installed in that position.A great many speakers used in custom installation were not designed for the purposed, but were adaptable to the task. The key is adaptablility, and if you have a imagination greater than a piece of white paper(that leaves you out RL) you can figure out which speakers can work in this position, and which ones cannot. The posters PSB are not a strange or weird design. The ports are on the front, the drivers all face foward, this leaves the possiblilty of many options for soffit or behind screen mounting. If you have already adopted many speakers to this position, then it is not a leap of faith to say that these could also.

You are dodging the inaccuracies of your own statements. You said that JBL CANNOT be placed behind a screen or soffit. The link shows that it already has been done. Its much like your aurgument, you say it cannot be done except with speakers designed for this specific purposed, yet speakers of all types(not specifically designed for this purpose)have already been installed. Your argument against the practice is too late.

Re: "the future"...sorry, I let my membership in the KreskinKlub lapse. I'm trying to deal with a hypothetical situation based on at least some bit of tangible reality. Will HAVIC get his new projector? Will he build a wall for the screen? Will he decide to upgrade/change his loudspeakers? Will the point be moot? Tune in tomorrow and find out...

According to you who seems to know all, and have done all, he is not going to get new equipment, and his speakers will not work when placed withing a wall, or behind a screen. You seem to know everything and nothing at the same time. Only you could realy pull this off, though with no success.

If you want to dump vagaries atop possibilities and/or probabilities, be my guest...talk about grasping at straws... Given that he has listed his current gear with no mention of further upgrade...I'm gonna' take an edumacated guess that it ain't gonna' happen. Even if it does, contemplating or actual making any structural changes based on his current lineup will most likely have little or no bearing on his future choices. This alone renders the entire execise highly debatable.

Your educated guess is crap. Since you are not really educated in custom installation your advice is crap. The poster already said he was going to do more investigation, and his mind was not made up yet. His question was purely hypothetical, non committal with no timetable set. Many things can happen in that scenario. The question remains, can his PSB's be adapted to in wall placement, the answer is yes with some response corrections induced by this placement.

Hey, ericl...and this is a moderator...

You called me a sham, I didn't call out to Eric, why are you? Yes I am a moderator, but I am also a participant. You told me what you think of me, I told you what I think about you. If you cannot take it, go put on a dress, panty hose, lipstick, and a wig, sit in front of the television and watch Oprah for makeup and fashion tips. This place aint for ya!

And TtT...sometime ago in another thread you lamented the fact of being passed over due to some issues you percieved as racial in nature...the more you post, the more the real reasons become obvious..

jimHJJ(...color is only skin deep, being a dumb $h!t cuts straight to the bone...)

In another thread you spoke of failing to finish college. I am willing the bet that the same defeatist attitude you exibited in this thread, is the same attitude that didn't allow you to finish college. You also said you were too chicken to go after promotion for fear of being sued by minorities, and left hanging dry by the company. Racist if I ever heard one. Keep in mind, I have been doing custom installation for 15 years. You have done nothing even related to audio, let alone custom install. So who is really the dumb $hit, the person that has the education and experience in the field, or the old idiot who is name calling?