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  1. #76
    Sure, sure... Auricauricle's Avatar
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    Gee roo zalem! Did Moses say anything about coveting amplifiers? God, the itch is comin' on!

  2. #77
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    My new aquistition fits perfectly into this thread!

    Its a 245lbs monoblock amp, takes 2.5kw out of the wall, puts out 1.5kw of heat per unit... pure class A.. no bias etc... I am picking them up next week in Paris. 6 cubic feet per unit. Holds any load... even a dead short :-)

    How do you feed those? Wouldn't your house need special wiring? Wouldn't your town need special transformers? Wouldn't your local powerhouse need bigger generators?
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  3. #78
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auricauricle
    Gee roo zalem! Did Moses say anything about coveting amplifiers? God, the itch is comin' on!
    Well you can get the Krell KSA-200s for a mere $10k or the Wotans for $12k on Audigon - unless Flo is buying the pair from Paris.

    rw

  4. #79
    Sure, sure... Auricauricle's Avatar
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    That's all?? Shoosh, I'll take TWO pair o' the Wotans! Er, the Krells....Um, no, wait....

  5. #80
    RGA
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    Flo - Once I get back to Canada - I'd be happy to review a new system from Apogee - I prefer to review "systems" over components or in lieu of that recommended front ends from the speaker maker or speakers from the amp/source makers. I'd prefer to listen with some sort of Tube design because my last Apogee auditions were coincidentally enough with Krell and Musical Fidelity.

    I find Krell to sound sterile and amusical and in fact that may have been the reason I did not enjoy the Apogees. Certainly I am open to the possibility that it was the amps - but they were the the best ones from both makers. Perhaps a beastly BAT amp would suffice. Another Apogee owner on AudioAsylm runs several SET amps on his Scintilla or Calipers (I forget which he currently owns.

    There is one interesting thing about amplifier load written on another thread about transistors written by a SET maker.

    "You obviously buy into the claims by many of the transistor amplifiers manufacturers about the stability of their amplifiers,

    "Absolutely stable into any load!" Is the claim.

    Any load?

    How about a dead short? Is my question to that.

    Ahem, says the claimant, that is not what I meant, well says I, so what you are telling me is that a screwdriver across the speaker terminals is not a load??

    Why do you think most of these amplifier have sophisticated protection circuits, would they be needed if the amplifier was truly stable??

    Answer that question, please.

    Now take any one of my 300B SETs for example, I can leave any of them switched on without a load or shorted for a month without any problem.

    Try that with one of your favourite transistor amplifiers, after you have removed the protection circuits and then see how long it lasts!"

    http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?...er+qvortrup&r=

  6. #81
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Hi RGA,

    first we must get on the same base. Not knowing the difference between a Scinitlla and Caliper is terrible, especially when actually commenting on the sound of Apogees :-) His name is Carl, and he has neither the Scinitlla nor the Caliper but he Apogee Stage.

    Scintilla = 1ohm impedance 79db efficency (or non-efficency)
    Caliper = 4ohm, much smaller and about 83db
    Stage = 6ohm and about 88db

    Regardin the Krell amps, i agree most do not sound very good. In this case, we are talking about the rarest Krell amp made. You can put a screwdriver across the terminals, sparks will fly and as soon as you lift the screwdriver it continous running. It is the biggest, most powerfull Krell built today. The old owner drives his Apogee Fullranges fully active (0.2ohm) load on the midrange with 6x of those amplifers. This amp, is fully stable...yes even into a dead short. This was demonstrated several times at the High End show in Frankfuhrt by the importer of Krell.

    Running them for 24hrs 7days is not a problem either, but will pure class a it sucks 2500watts per side out of the socket. Not a wise choice ;-) This amp was made to drive anything, even a screwdriver. Most all other Krells cannot do this.

    And please, stop commenting on Apogees. You dont even know the difference between the models, thats like me saying that i heard a AudioNote J, S or E...i dont remeber, but i do remeber not liking it ^^

    Cheers
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  7. #82
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    How do you feed those? Wouldn't your house need special wiring? Wouldn't your town need special transformers? Wouldn't your local powerhouse need bigger generators?
    Na, since its pure class a with no biasing they take a short while to fill all their capacitor banks and then just turn on. ^^ But yes, a good powerline is required. Thats another 5KW i have to pay.....
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  8. #83
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Well you can get the Krell KSA-200s for a mere $10k or the Wotans for $12k on Audigon - unless Flo is buying the pair from Paris.

    rw
    Hi E-Stat,

    its the KRS-200 but the link was correct. But those are mine, not for sale anymore
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  9. #84
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Those are similar specs to the VTL Wotans. They also serve as nice room heaters and exhibit a nice glow in the dark as well.



    rw
    Talk about an orgy of Nordost(?) cables..
    Nice amps..

  10. #85
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    But those are mine, not for sale anymore
    Ok. Usually components that are sold are marked sold. Or even - sold,sold,sold.

    rw

  11. #86
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Congrats, Flo

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    My new aquistition fits perfectly into this thread!

    Its a 245lbs monoblock amp, takes 2.5kw out of the wall, puts out 1.5kw of heat per unit... pure class A.. no bias etc... I am picking them up next week in Paris. 6 cubic feet per unit. Holds any load... even a dead short :-)
    Those are suitably insane. Enjoy!

  12. #87
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Those are suitably insane. Enjoy!
    Thanks! I am still kind wondering how to move them. When they rest on the carpet with 245lbs each i dont think i can move them much.....
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  13. #88
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    Thanks! I am still kind wondering how to move them. When they rest on the carpet with 245lbs each i dont think i can move them much.....
    On the carpet? Won't they start a fire?
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  14. #89
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    Thanks! I am still kind wondering how to move them. When they rest on the carpet with 245lbs each i dont think i can move them much.....
    Make sure they don't go through the floor

  15. #90
    I took a headstart... basite's Avatar
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    nice room heaters Flo (well, that's an understatement...), I'd be interested to know how you like them when in your system


    Have fun!

    Keep them spinning,
    Bert.
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    I'm a happy 20 year old...

  16. #91
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I find Krell to sound sterile and amusical...
    That has been my reaction to Dan's stuff as well, albeit with limited exposure. There is a guy on Audiogon who uses Tube Research Labs amplifiers with his full range Apogees.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Why do you think most of these amplifier have sophisticated protection circuits, would they be needed if the amplifier was truly stable??
    Not all solid state units do require current limiting protection circuitry. My Threshold Stasis, for example uses none. Its output stage was designed specifically to drive Dayton-Wright electrostats, a notoriously difficult load. while it is only rated at 100 watts per channel, the output stage uses thirty-two 150 watt devices. In a worse case scenario, it would open a rail fuse. Coincidentally, I met Dan D'Agostino back in the 70s when he was the manufacturer's rep for - yes, Dayton-Wright and Dunlap-Clarke, an early high powered solid state amp that no doubt had an influence on his later work at Krell.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Ahem, says the claimant, that is not what I meant, well says I, so what you are telling me is that a screwdriver across the speaker terminals is not a load??
    Well strictly speaking, a short is not a *typical* load presented by speakers, but it does recall a funny story. I was the resident audio geek back in high school and was asked to provide the system for the 1974 Miss RHS Pageant. I brought my double Advents driven by a Crown D-150 amp. I had to hide the equipment under a covered table and in the process of getting things connected with the poor lighting, shorted the outputs with a screwdriver! It was lightly welded to the speaker terminals and caused the amp to shut down. After prying the screwdriver loose, I proceeded to connect the speaker, switch it back on and - all was well!

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Now take any one of my 300B SETs for example, I can leave any of them switched on without a load or shorted for a month without any problem.
    Actually, an open load is not a problem for most SS amps. It is, however, for my VTL tube amps. I think its always a good idea to turn amps off before switching leads anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Try that with one of your favourite transistor amplifiers, after you have removed the protection circuits and then see how long it lasts!"
    The primary difference is how much current needs to be dissipated. An open load doesn't have to dissipate any as in the case of a direct short. Low powered SETs don't generate high levels of current in any event to be of concern.

    rw

  17. #92
    RGA
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    Florian - I was not arguing the case with you. Please read what i wrote a bit more carefully because I was talking about what a poster on AA owned and I forgot which Apogee loudspeaker he has - he often discussed the Scintilla and the Caliper and I knew he owned one but I don't recall what every poster on every forum owns. Suffice it to say he is very knowledgeable and a big fan of Apogee loudspeakers and claims that SET amps sound better on them whether 1 ohm or 4 ohm.

    You assume it someone named Carl - I have no idea who Carl is - this poster who waxed poetic on Apogee for several years now owns:

    Acoustat Spectra 2200
    Acoustat Spectra 4400 acting as planar subs
    DIY fully active planar magnetic hybrid speakers

    And he runs:
    2 KR audio Electronics VA350i hybrid integrated amplifiers. 30 watts each of SET power with passive preamp input.

    If that sounds like Carl then I suppose it is.

    I know which models I have heard - the Apogee Duetta Sig II that Constantine Soo of Dagogo owned - and the Scintilla.

    If as you say the Krell amps are a bad match with Apogee then I will allow for the possibility that the less than good results I heard was due to the amps and not the Apogees. In fact it may very well be possible because I have not really loved Krell with anything.

    Like I said I'd be pleased to review a new Apogee with something Apogee believes to be a good match. System Synergy is important and obviously I would not review an Apogee with a low powered amp such as mine.

  18. #93
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Hi RGA,

    the person you mean is Brad Morrical or "morricab". He is a friend of mine in Switzerland. I do know what you mean, but disagree with your common opinion about some companys. Krell makes good and bad amplifiers, there are very large gaps between the models. I dont mean that all Krell amps are a bad match, otherwise i wouldnt have just spend 10k for a pair.

    Brad loves KR-Hybrid amps, OTLS and SETS. But he also knows that currently no tube amp can drive an Apogee Scintilla. The amps he loves works great on a Caliper Sig, but wont have enough power to drive the larger models besides my Apogee Grand. But that is only because its fully active and requires 8 amplifers in order to run!

    ;-)

    PS: I am not a dealer or a manufacturer, so getting you an Apogee to review is not very likely. Plus you would need a 600ft2 room to really get them going, plus loads of electronics to try.

    PPS: The Apogee Synergy, is a modern Scintilla clone, 95db efficency with a 3ohm load. Those can work on the amps you like. I believe retail is about 26k...
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    My new aquistition fits perfectly into this thread!

    Its a 245lbs monoblock amp, takes 2.5kw out of the wall, puts out 1.5kw of heat per unit... pure class A.. no bias etc... I am picking them up next week in Paris. 6 cubic feet per unit. Holds any load... even a dead short :-)

    You'd need solid copper rods for circuit breakers (I'm guessing about 1" dia.) After that, I suspect your local power company would be paying you a visit.

    Nevertheless, I doubt I'll ever see amps like that, let alone the pedestals they're sitting on. Very impressive.

  20. #95
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    The amps he loves works great on a Caliper Sig, but wont have enough power to drive the larger models besides my Apogee Grand.
    Where does the Fullrange fall? There's a guy on Audiogon who runs some Tube Research amps with his having used a range of others.

    Apogee system

    rw

  21. #96
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Where does the Fullrange fall? There's a guy on Audiogon who runs some Tube Research amps with his having used a range of others.

    Apogee system

    rw
    His name is Ish, a friend of mine in Dallas Texas. The Fullrange falls below my Modell and above the DIVA. He is not using a "stock" Fullrange. He is using the Fullrange bass panel mated with a Apogee Centaur Major midrange ribbon. The midrange ribbon is similar to my Grand midrange driver.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  22. #97
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    The Krell KRS-200 do have some problems with the connectors to the eight powertransistor towers. The darkred ERO capacitors on the pre-driver stage probably need to be replaced because they tend to dry out in a couple of years and Krell acknowledges that. I had to replace them all at instigation from Walt Schneider COO of Krell.
    The KRS-200 is a 200 Watt fully biased Class A design that uses about 1150 Watts from the wall continously like the Krell KMA-200 Class A monoblocks that used forced cooling to get rid of the heat.
    KRS stands for Krell Reference Series and they made for different mono preamps in that serie: KRS, KRS-1, KRS-1A and KRS Balanced, one stereo preamp the KRS-2 and two convection cooled Class A mono-amps the KRS-200 and KRS-100.
    I have a ML-3 that weighs 116 lbs and I can't barely carry that on my own. The weight of a KRS-200 is 185 lbs and it has a lot of sharp corners so if you try to lift it on your own it will kill you. I could buy a pair in Austria but the sheer size, weight, wife and young kids stopped me from doing so. You will definitely need a qualified serviceman for these beasts to keep them running.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Expensive or Insane?  Where to draw the line.-frontview3_2amps.jpg  

  23. #98
    nightflier
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    Well, you can always put a sheet of glass on top, and brag about having the most expensive coffee table in town....

  24. #99
    Sure, sure... Auricauricle's Avatar
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    No t' mention doin' double duty keepin' them caffè lattes nice and warm!

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