Expensive or Insane? Where to draw the line.

[Deadeye]

E-Stat, what are those funny little boxes for? You know, the ones with those little round things in them!

[GMichael]

E-Stat, what are those funny little boxes for? You know, the ones with those little round things in them!

That's what speakers used to look like.

[E-Stat]

E-Stat, what are those funny little boxes for?

Good question! The pic is from one of the Rocky Mountain Audio Festivals. Although you cannot see it, what you see is half of a four channel "iso-mike" system Mr. Kimber developed. You may also recognize the EMM Labs digital front end gear, Pass Labs amps and (naturally) Kimber cable!

rw

[RGA]

Florian

I was not comparing the AN E to Apogee and nor do I want to start a list of who owns what because in fact you can be sure that both AN and Apogee will lose. I mentioned reviewers because reviewers generally listen to more equipment than do most consumers and they usually hear them under good conditions.

The large Soundlab that E-Stat shows for example is made for a very very large room - quite obviously the AN E is not and would as you note flounder in a large listening room like that. They were not built for rooms much bigger than 25 X 25 so obviously would not be suitable for the very big room customer.

Like I said I am no longer going to try and convince people what they should like. But as a note Kondo-San died several years ago. He made very few Audio Note components and most who have auditioned both like Martin Colloms have said that the AN UK stuff is superior - he reviewed both Ongaku's. AN UK created all the digital and analog front ends with Guy Adams of Voyd - not the new TT3 but the old one.

You are correct that the front end helps but all of their front ends since the mid 1980s were designed "through" the AN E in that that was the speaker they tested everything on and the little brothers - and the Snell Type A. So whatever anyone hears in any AN amp DAC etc was very likely designed through the E.

In the end from a practical sense what you say is true. There is no point in comparing a speaker maker today making speakers people can buy with a speaker maker that went out of business many years ago and managed to sell only a handful of loudspeakers.

I am not sure of the point you are making but you may want to consider that your intended point may be perceived as the exact opposite because when I read
that a a speaker maker who can only sell a few speakers and then goes out of business because they can't sell them does not make me think they're exclusive but makes me think that "if they were any good they would have been able to 1) sell them and 2) sell enough of the rest of their speakers to stay in business. Since they could do neither that doesn't make me think they're terrific.

I am not saying anything about their sound directly - I am just saying that you might want to consider that your argument for your support of them might need a second look because rightly or wrongly that is how that argument will likely be perceived.

[johnny p]

I think I'd rather not work 5 different jobs, and spend the extra time actually listening to music (even if it is progressive rock, for which I'll be chastised for!)

I can only imagine what Miles Davis, or Ray Charles, from their humble beginnings, would think, if they knew people spun their records on $300,000 turntables

[RoadRunner6]

I have your turntable , or at least something similar.
Two technics, one belt, the other direct drive, one early eighties, the other late eighties.
CURRENTLY I use the direct drive model(sl-d20) and it sounds great.
Anybody with enough cash can throw money at a problem , but getting a great sound at a bargain price has always been a challenge, and IMHO more fun.
That is one of the great things about this hobby, a poorass with skill can have a pretty
good system.
You just have to know how to shop

We are exactly on the same wavelength here Pix. My post was mainly for us mortals here who for the most part probably have about $5000-$10000 or not much more in their entire systems (whether stereo or MC HT). By the end of my current upgrades which should be complete later this year (new pre-pro and BD player) I will have about $7000 in my complete 5.1 HT system. This does not include some other components, SVHS decks, extra CD players, cassette decks,etc. I think the average Joe or Jane would pay about $10000-$15000 for comparable equipment and performance from a HT dealer.

I have no problem at all with those who can afford extremely expensive gear for perfectionism if not for significantly better sound. There are a number of such folks here and I drool over their equipment lists. However, I still maintain that with careful buying and proper set-up I can put together a system (cone speakers) for under $10000 (or $7000 like I mentioned above) that the general enthusiast would listen to and view and state that it was quite close in performance to systems costing 5 or 10 times as much. Thus, my comments pertaining to diminishing returns starting somehwere in this general price area.

RR6

[Monkey Mouse]

The one thing about the cream of the audio equipment (the $150K TT for example) is the fact that R&D costs a fortune, materials are not made in quantity, and there are only going to be so many customers. So you get a sky high price with performance to match. I'm sure Clearaudio doesn't sell more than 10 units to customers in any given year of the $150K flagship.

But as others have said, it gets people into the dealers (if the dealers carry the flagships) and there is a definite "trickle down" effect with the technology and material.

You would have to be a multi millionare to go with the best of the best. $150K for a TT, $15K for a phono cartridge, $40K for a phono stage, preamp, amps, speakers, wires, room design & treatment, power units... Could be an easy million for the whole show. And you are going to listen to $15 CDs on it....

The point of diminishing returns is quite low, but hard to quantify...

[elapsed]

Some people choose to spend $80,000 on a turntable because it gets them more emotionally involved with the music than does a Rega P3 for $800. The 80k turntable is not 80 times better - it may not be 8 times better but percentages have NOTHING to do with it. If the $80k turntable brings the listener to a cathartic experience listening to their records and the Rega does not then the $80k turntable is worth it and the Rega is not worth it.

That's the key here. If the 5k DAC makes you enjoy your music and the $1k model does not then to me the $5k DAC is money well spent and the $1k DAC is money poorly spent - even if the difference is very subtle - a subtle difference can be far more important than a BIG difference depending on what it is that is being altered.

I couldn't agree more.. I could argue that the point of diminishing returns for a 2-channel system is around $5,000. This bought me my original entry-level Naim system, Rega Planar 3 turntable, and a couple of small speakers, and was truly enjoyable to listen to. However, it was well worth it to me to spend several times this original budget in order to build a system that gives me a truly emotional connection to the music I'm listening to. And although the upgraded system is only perhaps 10-20% better than the original system, this was still worth every penny to me regardless of the cost.

cheers,
elapsed

[Florian]

Hi RGA,

i believe that when it comes to Apogee, your knowledge of sale numbers are very limited. Apogee sold thousands of speakers. As a fact, there are 2500 pairs of Apogee Duettas in Germany alone. There are many many more in the USA and Asia. The company was alive and kicking for almost 20 years! Every model they made was featured in the German HIFI magazines as the reference in every price range above 10k :-) Even in the USA they wom Best sound of show a huge amount of time. They are featured in the
smithsonian and disney! Even the USA audio press bowed over for them, and the DIVA (3 to 4 smallest model) was noted in the same leauge as the Wilson WAMM and Infinity IRS

But back to topic, i agree that Audio Note makes some very nice products. I rank their electronics very highly and i have nothing against them. For me, its simply not possible. The speaker i own needs a huge room 800ft2 at least and cant be run with 30 watts of tube power. Its all a matter of preference and i woulndt mind spending 60k on a audio note amp if i had the cash. But not on their speaker ;-)

By the way, you seem to think that Apogee sold " a few amount of speakers", this is not so. The production cost was too high and the speakers where priced too low. A management mistake....

[JoeE SP9]

Attn: All you regulars who have been following this thread. I have finally gotten in on my original name. I'm back to being JoeE SP9. It's so nice to feel like myself again!!!!

[pixelthis]

We are exactly on the same wavelength here Pix. My post was mainly for us mortals here who for the most part probably have about $5000-$10000 or not much more in their entire systems (whether stereo or MC HT). By the end of my current upgrades which should be complete later this year (new pre-pro and BD player) I will have about $7000 in my complete 5.1 HT system. This does not include some other components, SVHS decks, extra CD players, cassette decks,etc. I think the average Joe or Jane would pay about $10000-$15000 for comparable equipment and performance from a HT dealer.

I have no problem at all with those who can afford extremely expensive gear for perfectionism if not for significantly better sound. There are a number of such folks here and I drool over their equipment lists. However, I still maintain that with careful buying and proper set-up I can put together a system (cone speakers) for under $10000 (or $7000 like I mentioned above) that the general enthusiast would listen to and view and state that it was quite close in performance to systems costing 5 or 10 times as much. Thus, my comments pertaining to diminishing returns starting somehwere in this general price area.

RR6

My gear is about the same .
THE only thing wrong with my 2500 worth of b&w is the darn things wont die, going on
seven years and still sound great, talk about a bargain.
I beleive in the law of diminshing returns, after ten grand or so you get smaller and smaller
improvement for less and less money.
Which is great if you have money to throw at a problem, but I dont.
One thing I have longed to do (except that some woman, problem, or both came along)
was advance beyond the receiver pond dwellers.
I WISH TO EVOLVE, crawl up on the beach and bask in the sun, and the sound of
seperates.
MAYBE some day...

[RGA]

Florian

Certainly Apogee has a following as does Audio Note but it is pretty obvious that both companies are dwarfed in sales by other manufacturers like Bose. I won't compare sales numbers because I'm sure you would agree that more sales does not equate to better sound. If it did it would mean that Bose makes the best loudspeakers and by far.

So it comes down to a practical issue Florian. I recommend speakers that people can walk into a store and audition first hand. Thus for whatever the reasons Apogee is no longer around is inconsequential because no one can really audition them except on the used market. And that person is going to have to likely ship them someplace to get them repaired.

I have heard only two Apogee loudspeakers in the Duetta Sig II and the Scintilla and I much prefer the Quad 2905 sticking to just panels. To my ear the Quad's have a smoother frequency balance and perform better in the upper midrange - lower treble. I found the Apogees to suffer more noticeable frequency response issues and a little brightness (something I hear with Magnepan as well). I simply have not liked the sound of Ribbons.

That does not mean to say "I'm right and you're wrong" (granted that was the "old me") and the way I used to write - it's just personal perception. Just as the AN E will sound lightweight in the large room and would very likely be unacceptable to your ear in such a room.

Obviously both companies share a fairly vocal group of followers and it's doubtful either will convince the other. And if you think about it there is no point in convincing the other. There is no way to "win" and the only thing that will be accomplished is trading reviews, experts, he said she said, (shudder) frequency graphs, and very likely on stuff that anyone reading can't audition because it's no longer made, does not have much dealer representation, or too damn expensive anyway.

The bottom line is this - there is no comparison to be made between the two that falls outside the realm of preference. The AN E is designed for a room smaller than 25X25 and the big Apogee speakers are better suited to a larger room. Thus a comparison is not even possible for if you have a massive room, like you do, the AN E will not likely sound good. Certainly the point is not lost on me.

In a medium and thus smaller than 25 X 25 room based on my listening experience it is currently number 1. My mind can be changed when and if I hear it. There are a number of speakers though that I have liked since the last time I was more of presence on this forum.

I will not try to convince a panel guy to go to boxes - I have listened to enough panels to know why they went to panels and in MOST cases I agree with the panel guys.

[Florian]

Hi RGA,

of course there is no reason to convert someone. I wont try! Ill just say this, you heard two speakers that are very very difficult. Most likely one of the most difficult speakers to get right. The Scinitlla has a impedance of 1ohm, always! They are incredibly inefficent and therefore require amplifiers like the Musical Fidelity KW Monoblocks or Krell Reference Standard in order to run properbly. They also need a very large room (at least 400ft2) to work correctly. In almost all cases the speakers are not powered or placed right.

Apogees are and where always regarded as a see through window... if the electronics are not up to the stuff you will hear it with Apogees. I think that some of your disliking is due to the electronics as none of the Scinitlla systems i have owned and know exhibit this.

Anyways, enjoy your system. I sure am mine. My current house planing incl. 1200ft2 of audio room and only a speaker like the Grand, Genesis 1.1 or SL Majestic will do what i want.

cu

[RoadRunner6]

Pix, I'm right with you. I get a lot of satisfaction spending forever trying to figure out how I can squeeze the last dime of performance out of my dollars while still maintaining excellent build quality and performance.

For the last year or so I have been contemplating a new receiver that even with online discounts would run about $1200-$1500 or more. Didn't think I could afford separates until not too many months ago when I started to read up about Emotiva after Kex and Rich bought their's. I read almost everything I could and ended up a believer and bought my new amp just at the right time to get a great price. With their new pre-pro this year I will have both units for $1398 plus about $25 of shipping total. Just can't even come close to that performance in any receiver under 5K

There is hope for us nearly homeless chaps (I can barely afford a six pack of non-alcoholic beer these days). Just be vigilant and very patient.

RR6

[Florian]

RGA, just as more information. You can buy new Apogees (freshly build) from www.apogeeacoustics.com or newly restored ones from True Soundworks. http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....lan&1240086115

[Auricauricle]

$10.00 + $10,990.00 = $11,000.00. What's the other $9,000.00 for???

Okay: You got me....Hey. I'm a word man, can't you tell?!

[Auricauricle]

I won't pretend to have near as much knowledge or expertise regarding things audiophile as you guys....Much of what I have used in the past, even today, can be considered mid-fi, and my taste in sound and expense has been tempered by the standards acquired by that experience. I have had the fortune to listen to very expensive gear, here and there, and I can appreciate the nuanced and refined sound they are capable of; but whether it's because my budget is tight or I simply don't know better, I am happy with what I own.

It seems to me that this hobby of our is like the cigar community, which is comprised of three camps of people: The true afficianados who know their products backwards and forwards and are not impressed by a bunch of fancy doodads and lights; the "afficianados" (note the quotation marks) who spend big bucks not knowing much about what they are buying, but are convinced that "more must be better"; and those folks in between who are intrigued but are content with merely knowing just enough to purchase something that is "good enough".

This hobby, like the cigar community's is prey to all sorts of vanity and misdirection. True afficianados can sit back and watch people spend their money foolishly, knowing that the amp that costs $15,000.00 may sound great, but there are plenty of amps costing much, much less that sound just as, if not equally, as pleasing. It's sad when a beautiful product can only be afforded by a boob who doesn't have a clue, but that's just the nature of the beast. Parallel that experience to the witless multimillionaire who buys vintage Cuban cigars, but proceeds to burn them all. To the canny smoker it's a shame, but c'est la vie!

The rest of us, who know better, can go our own way and make appropriate decisions, knowing that one doesn't need to spend a pile to get a lot out of the music. I've spent a nice bit on my rig, and it brings me many hours of happy listening. This doesn't even phase (no pun) my dad, who is content to listen to CD's and cassettes (recodings of the Texaco sponsored operas at the Met [NPR]) on his boom box. He wouldn't dream of setting up such a system, and that's fine. He's an Intermediate listener: he gets what he likes and likes what he gets, and that's good enough.

In the meantime, I turn on my trusty Newcastle and look at the ads here, in Audiogon and Craiglist, knowing that one day the fever will come and it will be time to upgrade. If I had the money, I would do so in a skinny minute, believe me....

[JoeE SP9]

I
In the meantime, I turn on my trusty Newcastle and look at the ads here, in Audiogon and Craiglist, knowing that one day the fever will come and it will be time to upgrade. If I had the money, I would do so in a skinny minute, believe me....

I think most of us (maybe not Florian) feel the same way.

[bobsticks]

Attn: All you regulars who have been following this thread. I have finally gotten in on my original name. I'm back to being JoeE SP9. It's so nice to feel like myself again!!!!

Good to see you back, Joe. I too wondered when first I saw the avatar.

[Florian]

My new aquistition fits perfectly into this thread!

Its a 245lbs monoblock amp, takes 2.5kw out of the wall, puts out 1.5kw of heat per unit... pure class A.. no bias etc... I am picking them up next week in Paris. 6 cubic feet per unit. Holds any load... even a dead short :-)

[nightflier]

1.5kw of heat x 2? Flo, I sure hope it's cold where you live...

[Florian]

1.5kw of heat x 2? Flo, I sure hope it's cold where you live...

-16 degree celcius right now....

BUT thats not the end of the fun. There are 4 krell monos in the Grands plus those ;-) Good thing the room is 800ft2 otherwise id be screwed royaly!

[Auricauricle]

Schweeeeeeeet, Flo! I'm bringin' weinies for the fire! Who's got the beer?

[GMichael]

Beer here. And maybe some finer tobacco.

[E-Stat]

Its a 245lbs monoblock amp, takes 2.5kw out of the wall, puts out 1.5kw of heat per unit... pure class A.. no bias etc...Holds any load... even a dead short :-)

Those are similar specs to the VTL Wotans. They also serve as nice room heaters and exhibit a nice glow in the dark as well.



rw