An elitest's viewpoint.

[Luvin Da Blues]

The urge to feel superior to others is hard-wired into humans. Snobbery is just one form of that - the ability to afford expensive gear others cannot puts a person in an exclusive club.

Meanwhile, the DIYers feel superior because they possess an understanding and ability to make for themselves what others can't. The bargain hunter or smart shopper feels superior for not getting suckered into buying gear that is often expensive as a result of appearance, hand-crafting or other features that contribute nothing to sound quality. Still others are proud of their ability to focus on the music and hear the composer's or artist's intent regardless of sound quality; they perhaps picture themselves mirroring Beethoven's great mind in mentally imagining perfect music in spite of hearing or playback limitations.

In short, every segment of this (or any other) hobby relishes the approach they are taking. Sometimes the display of superiority is conscious and ostentatious, while it resides more at the subconscious level in others. (Ever met anyone who was annoyingly superior in their display of humbleness?) ;-)

Excellent post, greenies for ya

[Ajani]

The urge to feel superior to others is hard-wired into humans. Snobbery is just one form of that - the ability to afford expensive gear others cannot puts a person in an exclusive club.

Meanwhile, the DIYers feel superior because they possess an understanding and ability to make for themselves what others can't. The bargain hunter or smart shopper feels superior for not getting suckered into buying gear that is often expensive as a result of appearance, hand-crafting or other features that contribute nothing to sound quality. Still others are proud of their ability to focus on the music and hear the composer's or artist's intent regardless of sound quality; they perhaps picture themselves mirroring Beethoven's great mind in mentally imagining perfect music in spite of hearing or playback limitations.

In short, every segment of this (or any other) hobby relishes the approach they are taking. Sometimes the display of superiority is conscious and ostentatious, while it resides more at the subconscious level in others. (Ever met anyone who was annoyingly superior in their display of humbleness?) ;-)

Excellent Point! More greenies for you...

Human nature involves forming some kind of "exclusive" groups... And the number of camps in HiFi alone is mind-blowing... Everyone has discovered the fountain of youth or spear of destiny or whatever and the rest of us are all poor deluded fools...

[Feanor]

The urge to feel superior to others is hard-wired into humans. Snobbery is just one form of that - the ability to afford expensive gear others cannot puts a person in an exclusive club.
.... (Ever met anyone who was annoyingly superior in their display of humbleness?) ;-)

Yes, but this is old news.

To me you comments come across as dismissive of the fact that the supposedly preeminent hi-fi mags are are catering to that ubiquitously catered to elite, the rich.

[mlsstl]

Feanor, I suspect Stereophile and TAS are targeting more than just the rich. I don't routinely read them, but when I do, they often have articles about middle price equipment or even stellar finds in the low cost arena. (I recall the $300 Squeezebox Touch was glowingly treated by Stereophile about a year ago.)

Their goal is to have as large a circulation as possible, so that makes for an interesting balancing act to keep the various constituencies placated. I know they don't waste much time on the DIY crowd, nor the casual audio shopper, but I think they do play to more than one of the other groups.

[Hyfi]

Feanor, I suspect Stereophile and TAS are targeting more than just the rich. I don't routinely read them, but when I do, they often have articles about middle price equipment or even stellar finds in the low cost arena. (I recall the $300 Squeezebox Touch was glowingly treated by Stereophile about a year ago.)

Their goal is to have as large a circulation as possible, so that makes for an interesting balancing act to keep the various constituencies placated. I know they don't waste much time on the DIY crowd, nor the casual audio shopper, but I think they do play to more than one of the other groups.

They do now but at the time I cancelled my subscription they did not and the majority of letters to editor were always complaining about it. Many people cancelled and they finally did something about it. But many times the associated equipment is not in the same league as the item being reviewed. They will review a $500 pair of speakers using 20K worth of gear.

[Ajani]

Yes, but this is old news.

To me you comments come across as dismissive of the fact that the supposedly preeminent hi-fi mags are are catering to that ubiquitously catered to elite, the rich.

Is there really something wrong with that? Keep in mind that magazines are not some form of public service but are intended to be profit earning businesses. So if they feel the elite are the ones driving sales, then why shouldn't they cater to the elite?

I'm middle-class (and I imagine the majority of us on this site are as well), but if I start my own business and the ultra rich are the ones buying my product, then I'm going to cater to their needs...

Now the fact that Stereophile has, in recent years, moved away from just reviewing luxury gear and is focusing on more affordable gear, implies that either their customer base has shifted more towards the middle class... OR ... that they were wrong in thinking that the elite were the ones buying their mags...

[Feanor]

Is there really something wrong with that? Keep in mind that magazines are not some form of public service but are intended to be profit earning businesses. So if they feel the elite are the ones driving sales, then why shouldn't they cater to the elite?

I'm middle-class (and I imagine the majority of us on this site are as well), but if I start my own business and the ultra rich are the ones buying my product, then I'm going to cater to their needs...

Now the fact that Stereophile has, in recent years, moved away from just reviewing luxury gear and is focusing on more affordable gear, implies that either their customer base has shifted more to wards the middle class... OR ... that they were wrong in thinking that the elite were the ones buying their mags...

Don't mind me, folks, I'm just an old curmudgeon.

I understand about catering to the carriage trade; it's a time-honored strategy. And I too would do that if I had a business where that were the most profitable approach -- indeed, that's the main reason we see so much high-end equipment. Mass producing and mass marketing low cost gear is difficult; a lot easier (seemingly) to get into the arena with high markup products.

But hey, it's one thing to understand a phenomenon but another thing to like it.

I know that there has long been a lot of median income people who like to read about pricey, supposedly SOTA equipment even if they can't afford it. (Occassionally I do too, especially if there is some genuinely new technology involved.) But I definitely would like to see more affordable equipment reviewed than I am seeing.

But anyway, this thread didn't start off about 'Philes or TAS' marketing strategies, it was about Mark Fremer's particular remark which as still regard as an ill-considered, douche thing to say.

[mlsstl]

But anyway, this thread didn't start off about 'Philes or TAS' marketing strategies, it was about Mark Fremer's particular remark which as still regard as an ill-considered, douche thing to say.

In short, a snarky way for him to declare his superiority to those who are not members of his club.

Back to Human Nature 101.

[Poultrygeist]

RGA,

You missed my point. Quality parts are everything in an amp but those high quality parts are cheap compared to the ridiculous prices these boutique amps command. We are duped into believing that such amps are better but they are only as good as the sum of the parts ( which are available to all ) and the care taken in their assembly. Proprietary parts are usually nothing more than just be-badged off the shelf stuff. There's nothing new under the sun with amp design while R&D amounts to looking at what's already been done and matching that with profit margins. The single ended triode, believed by many to be superior to all others, dates back to the late 1920's.

I would hope all these boutique amps would be point-to-point hand wired with few if any pcb's but I doubt that's the case. Even the cheapo DIY amp kits are point-to-point hand wired with no printed circuit boards.

[Feanor]

In short, a snarky way for him to declare his superiority to those who are not members of his club.

Back to Human Nature 101.

Yep. Basically so.

Then too when people are separated long enough from "the little people" they begin to genuinely believe in their own version of reality.

[Poultrygeist]

Mark, meet Buzz my DIY amp building bud from Greenville

Greenvalve Audio Latest - YouTube

[RGA]

RGA,

You missed my point. Quality parts are everything in an amp but those high quality parts are cheap compared to the ridiculous prices these boutique amps command. We are duped into believing that such amps are better but they are only as good as the sum of the parts ( which are available to all ) and the care taken in their assembly. Proprietary parts are usually nothing more than just be-badged off the shelf stuff. There's nothing new under the sun with amp design while R&D amounts to looking at what's already been done and matching that with profit margins. The single ended triode, believed by many to be superior to all others, dates back to the late 1920's.

I would hope all these boutique amps would be point-to-point hand wired with few if any pcb's but I doubt that's the case. Even the cheapo DIY amp kits are point-to-point hand wired with no printed circuit boards.

I do agree in part since there are plenty of companies that have amps built in China rebadged under their own names and marked up many times. You can get that amp or the parts largely anywhere.

I don't see too many of the best brands advertising point to point wiring. Mid level stuff I see it more.

Some SET companies do spend the big bucks on the internals of their gear - and whilst some may disagree with the choice to spend money on cables, caps, transformers, resisters circuit boards etc some do in fact spend the money in designing and building their own parts

[StevenSurprenant]

The urge to feel superior to others is hard-wired into humans.

Great analogy of the human condition.

Oddly, the people I admire the most are people who can enjoy a table radio or boom box, and who need nothing beyond that. They just love the music.

[Luvin Da Blues]

Great analogy of the human condition.

Oddly, the people I admire the most are people who can enjoy a table radio or boom box, and who need nothing beyond that. They just love the music.

You mean they love some of the song. I prefer to hear every octave, nuance and detail when I listen. That's why I have a decent system.

[Feanor]

...
Oddly, the people I admire the most are people who can enjoy a table radio or boom box, and who need nothing beyond that. They just love the music.

On music lover sites I visit there are lots of these people. There's not doubt about their love of music, but they're fine listening to in boomboxes, (or compact systems, etc.). But this really has nothing to do with the current discussion which is about the audiophile hobby.

And of course, some of the true music lovers at the sites I'm thinking of have high-end systems. So music loving and audiophilia can coexist.

[StevenSurprenant]

I guess that I didn't make my point and the connection I was trying to make to the subject matter was too obtuse. That's fine, I understand. I'll just mark it up to my inability to communicate effectively.

I'll try and make it a little clearer.

mlsstl's post is a very good example of human nature, in this case, focused on our attitudes concerning audio. This "nature" applies to many aspects of our lives which I won't go into for fear that someone will accuse me of getting off subject.

Understanding this "nature", we can relate it ourselves. Fremer triggered some resentment with some of us here, but some of us brushed it off as nothing bad being implied while others took it to heart and as an insult. I don't know this man, nor will I second guess what his words implied. The same applies to the posters here at audioreview. Some of us here use condescending tones towards others from time to time. There are many egos at play on this site and sometimes the tone that Fremer used is reflected in the way we speak to each other. At times, we are no different. Except in the case of a direct verbal attack on another, these bursts of ego should not to be taken seriously. Life is too short to let this be of any concern and besides, I think most people are perceptual enough to see past the words and garner the implied meanings.

As for the people that are happy with their table radio...

These people don't argue, fuss or fight like we do. They see the beauty in the song and that is enough to make them happy. We can learn something from them.

Human nature is so bizarre that I have no doubt that some here will take offense to my, "can't we all get along speech." It's mind boggling!

[Hyfi]

I guess that I didn't make my point and the connection I was trying to make to the subject matter was too obtuse. That's fine, I understand. I'll just mark it up to my inability to communicate effectively.

I'll try and make it a little clearer.

mlsstl's post is a very good example of human nature, in this case, focused on our attitudes concerning audio. This "nature" applies to many aspects of our lives which I won't go into for fear that someone will accuse me of getting off subject.

Understanding this "nature", we can relate it ourselves. Fremer triggered some resentment with some of us here, but some of us brushed it off as nothing bad being implied while others took it to heart and as an insult. I don't know this man, nor will I second guess what his words implied. The same applies to the posters here at audioreview. Some of us here use condescending tones towards others from time to time. There are many egos at play on this site and sometimes the tone that Fremer used is reflected in the way we speak to each other. At times, we are no different. Except in the case of a direct verbal attack on another, these bursts of ego should not to be taken seriously. Life is too short to let this be of any concern and besides, I think most people are perceptual enough to see past the words and garner the implied meanings.

As for the people that are happy with their table radio...

These people don't argue, fuss or fight like we do. They see the beauty in the song and that is enough to make them happy. We can learn something from them.

Human nature is so bizarre that I have no doubt that some here will take offense to my, "can't we all get along speech." It's mind boggling!

What are you thinking you stupid idiot?








Just kidding, good post!

[hifitommy]

i am with poppa! what mikey said was "if you THINK". i believe he was pointing out that 4200 isnt an exhorbitant amount in COMPARISON to some others such as Soulution amps and th like.

i LOVE my cheap adcom 555II but i assure you, there are others i might have if i had ludicrous dough.

now and again we get a taste of the high priced spread that is within our reach and is pleasing to our ears. its like buying a lexus yet there are WAY more expensive cars. i will bet some of us have lexus or acuras. i see bentlys here in so-cal and lamboghinis etc. would those people be happy with a chevy? if it was a corvette maybe but not an impala.

its a HOBBY and we dabble where we can afford. i would have the MBL101s and commensurate associated equipment had i the bucks. instead i have MMGs and s3/5s. i DO have an audio research sp3a1 and now fully understand why some buy that brand and VTLs etc. and not just tubed stuff either.

stereophile and tas arent snobs, they are hipping us to the best and also the affordable. just as car and driver tells us about lotuses and the like.

[E-Stat]

If that's your idea of "expensive" (notice the quotes), well, regardless of what you can afford, you're in the wrong hobby."

Sorry, but I agree. Before you jump my case, I think the operative clause that folks here seem to miss is:

"regardless of what you can afford"

That acknowledges the fact that being an audiophile isn't based upon what you own or can afford. I considered myself an audiophile when I was a teenager with an H-K Citation 11/Crown D-150 driving double Advents. It's based upon what you seek. The journey of discovery as to what is possible. And the thrill of the experience. My curiosity and passion has never stopped. If you've never heard a well matched system using exceptional amps ten times that cost, then you should be asking yourself "how can I add that to my experience?" Diminishing returns certainly apply, but that doesn't minimize the joy I get from hearing systems far better (and more costly) than mine.

It just takes me closer to my music. Isn't that what it's all about?

rw

[Feanor]

Sorry, but I agree. Before you jump my case, I think the operative clause that folks here seem to miss is:

"regardless of what you can afford"
...
rw

Good point. Aren't we petty, self-centered people to equate "expensive" with what we can't afford -- we ought to try harder to understand the POV of the 1%ers.

[frenchmon]

"It costs $4200. If that's your idea of "expensive" (notice the quotes), well, regardless of what you can afford, you're in the wrong hobby."

That comment is ill spoken...why? Because expense is subjective.

[E-Stat]

to equate "expensive" with what we can't afford

Since your $2300 Monarchy amps were presumably "not expensive" and the $4200 RMs are "expensive", where do you find the tipping point?

Do you find that $2300 for a stereo power amplifier represents the median investment for the 99% of the audio buying public?

rw

[frenchmon]

Sorry, but I agree. Before you jump my case, I think the operative clause that folks here seem to miss is:

"regardless of what you can afford"

That acknowledges the fact that being an audiophile isn't based upon what you own or can afford. I considered myself an audiophile when I was a teenager with an H-K Citation 11/Crown D-150 driving double Advents. It's based upon what you seek. The journey of discovery as to what is possible. And the thrill of the experience. My curiosity and passion has never stopped. If you've never heard a well matched system using exceptional amps ten times that cost, then you should be asking yourself "how can I add that to my experience?" Diminishing returns certainly apply, but that doesn't minimize the joy I get from hearing systems far better (and more costly) than mine.

It just takes me closer to my music. Isn't that what it's all about?

rw

So the pursuit of high-fidelity means that one can't have a subjective idea of expense and if we do we are in the wrong hobby?

[E-Stat]

So the pursuit of high-fidelity means that one can't have a subjective idea of expense and if we do we are in the wrong hobby?

Not at all. I merely presume you are aware of the many $50k and above amplifiers on the market. Similarly, my wife's Honda S2000 costs one-tenth that of a Ferrari with not too terribly different performance. I suspect that some folks would consider the Honda expensive, but in context to the market, I think most would agree that it is not.

rw

[Ajani]

Not at all. I merely presume you are aware of the many $50k and above amplifiers on the market. Similarly, my wife's Honda S2000 costs one-tenth that of a Ferrari with not too terribly different performance. I suspect that some folks would consider the Honda expensive, but in context to the market, I think most would agree that it is not.

rw

IMO, that is the key point: "Context"... In absolute terms a $4K amp can certainly be considered expensive (that's more than many persons after tax pay for the month... and not everyone can afford to spend an entire month's salary on a non-necessity)... However, in the context of the HiFi market, a $4K amp can be seen as being cheap (especially if it performs on par with $14K amps - considering the price of the amps Fremer uses; for him to be so satisfied with a $4K amp says a lot about its performance)....