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  1. #1
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    Comparing Commerical with Residential Audio

    I'm referencing this here for a look outside the consumer audio (for a bit of objectivity) partly because info in the residential is 'colored' by some of the interests selling gimmicks (profit centers) to us for home use that appeal to feelings or even superstitions about sound reproduction I keep reading in the threads. Not meant as a flame here.. just a lead to why some stuff just does not really work (beyond the psychological impact from our wish for more than or other than reality can offer us), yet we 'feel' that it has after we've invested dearly in it.

    I think that you will find this brief article useful...

    Residential vs. Commercial: Basic Audio Differences
    Here are a couple audio differences between commercial and residential installs.

    http://www.cepro.com/article/residen...m_medium=email

    June 16 2009
    By Fred Harding
    Filed in: News, Fundamentals, Audio Sources, Commercial, Installation

    "........
    Differences in Pro/Consumer Gear

    Let's start with the typical connection between a source and the amplifier.

    Consumer equipment uses RCA connections, which are referred to as unbalanced. Essentially, this type of connection has a signal and a ground.

    Pro gear uses a balanced style of connection, which has three connections:
    A plus
    A minus
    A ground
    The connectors can be an XLR style, a 0.25-inch TRS style or even a removable style of terminal strip.

    The balanced connection and its signal have much better noise-rejecting characteristics than the unbalanced style. The signal cancels any noise that might be induced on the line.

    A balanced signal also has the ability to go greater distances without noise and is transmitted at a higher level. If you compare the two signals, you'll find that consumer unbalanced signals are rated at -10 dB, and pro balanced signals are rated at +4 dB. That 14 dB difference is quite large. A 10 dB difference appears to be about twice as loud from loudest to quietest.

    These factors need to be considered when deploying consumer products like preamps with professional-rated products like amplifiers. The pro amp is looking for a hotter signal than the consumer device is delivering. So, even though the pro amplifier has oodles of power, the system will sound very underpowered.

    More via the link...

    Food for thought...

  2. #2
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    To expand on this a little

    "Balanced" internal design as well as connections are becoming more popular in high-end consumer audio too.

    The opposite of Balanced is Single-ended. In terms of connections:
    • Single-ended consists of two wire consisting of
      • One "hot", i.e. signal-delivering wire, and
      • One ground or maybe more accurately "drain" or return wire that completes the circut from the source. It is usually connect to the chassis of the source and target components.
    • By contast, balanced typically has three wires:
      • One + wire, that is, 0º phase active signal,
      • One - wire, that is, 180º phase version of the same active signal, and
      • One ground wire, which in this case is a true ground which might be connected to the source and target components' chasis, but which isn't required to complete the electrical circuit.
    But note that just because an XLR connector is used, the signal sent isn't necessarily balanced; the + will be the only active signal wire, and the - and ground will be jumped at the source component so they are both drains.

    Apart from connections, components can be either single-end or fully-balance internally. An internally balanced component can be thought of as four channel where both the left and right channels are each served by separate plus + and a - phase channels.

    When true, fully balanced source drives a true, fully balanced target, the gain will inherently be 6dB higher than a single-ended connector from the same source. The benefits of a balanced connection all pertain only when the source and target are both balanced for both connections and internal operation.

    I think in general the following is true, given source & target both provide single-ended and balanced connections. Correct me if I'm wrong!!
    • When the source outputs only single-end -- no advantage to a balanced connection,
    • Source outputs balanced but target actually only accepts single-ended (regardless of the connector) -- no advantage to a balanced connection.
    • Source outputs balanced and the target accepts balanced signal but converts it to single-end for internal operation -- the cable noise rejection benefits pertains but the increased gain does not.
    • Source outputs and target receives balanced, and target is fully balanced internally -- +6dB gain as well as cable noise rejection benefit applies.
    Last edited by Feanor; 06-16-2009 at 11:12 AM.

  3. #3
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    Comparing, plus protection

    I like your method of presenting the issues and thanks for the loss comparison ... I'd guess again that you are spot on with that part of the results, since I can't 'hear' the difference.

    I've guessed the reason they're happy with the 'extra' common (just as for two phase power) may be a means to protect the Amplifier. Just a WAG guess...

  4. #4
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    I think one needs to draw a clear distinction between a typical professional audio situation such as a recording studio or concert venue and a home environment.

    In the professional environment, there are typically a number of long wire runs at very low voltages (microphones) or line level. There is also usually far more equipment powered up and running in a commercial setting. The potential for noise pickup in a 75' microphone cable with dozens of preamps, amps, processors, equalizers, recorders and so on nearby is at a whole different level than a 3' wire run from a home CD player to a preamp or amp.

    So, the first question for the home user would be whether his cables are picking up noise that is interfering with the music. Even if "yes" the problem may be easily solved with a better shielded unbalanced cable.

    The next question - if you have a setup you absolutely love, but does not have balanced connections - do you discombobulate yourself by starting a search for new equipment in order to fix something that doesn't seem to be causing a problem?

    I've run both ways at home, and once you adjust for the volume gain in a balanced setting, I've never been able to tell the difference. As such, I don't worry about the issue.

  5. #5
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    My VAC Pre which is getting close to 20 years old has Balanced outputs as does my 15 year old Stratus Amp (inputs).

    Are you using Best Buy equipment as your Residential comparisons? High End gear has had these connections for as long as I have been buying gear.

    What you hear between the two is still another question.

  6. #6
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    Gads.. I've been wrong for decades?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi
    My VAC Pre which is getting close to 20 years old has Balanced outputs as does my 15 year old Stratus Amp (inputs).

    Are you using Best Buy equipment as your Residential comparisons? High End gear has had these connections for as long as I have been buying gear.

    What you hear between the two is still another question.

    No, never thought of shopping BB for other than blank media such as DVD's or CD's.

    Also, my ultimate system was purchased over the years before most of the originators were acquired by off shore mass makers (Bozak, Marantz, McIntosh and the others were still here and directing policy after good engineering), using the still familiar quality names. I did briefly leave that gear for the fancy stuff and even went back to tubes, briefly.

    What caught my interest about the CE article was the curious representation in other threads here that wire for speaker runs or even the power cable to the amps could make a 'sound' difference that can be heard (I presumed everyone supplies normal high content copper wire to start with).

    I'm thinking that I've been stupid all these years? That Rudy Bozak was or McIntosh and Gow or even Russell? Gads.. in today's $ I've got a very expensive system on zip cord or old Monster and I'm missing content! Well, our hearing does decline, but have I been cheated and as I own an outfit that makes voice and data communication gear and distributes ours and others .. those posts suggest we've been wrong! I understand the need for good stuff from the devices to the preamp and from it to the amps or biamp .. box, but speaker wire... wall power to the components?

    So when I came upon this article I posted it to see what's up...perhaps I've been wrong for decades?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by drmorgan
    So when I came upon this article I posted it to see what's up...perhaps I've been wrong for decades?
    Seems like there's really only one way to know for sure. Try it with your system and see.
    I would certainly be interested in what you find out.

    Rudy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rudy Gireyev
    Seems like there's really only one way to know for sure. Try it with your system and see.
    I would certainly be interested in what you find out.

    Rudy
    Yeah, I would surely be interested in how my Synergistic speaker cables perform in his system over zip cord.

  9. #9
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    Tried some

    Quote Originally Posted by Rudy Gireyev
    Seems like there's really only one way to know for sure. Try it with your system and see.
    I would certainly be interested in what you find out.

    Rudy
    My system has been audited by many over the years (decades) and recently but beyond an issue with cabling to the preamp from a turntable (the A/B box was the issue), no aberrant noise noted and given the age and rarity of the set up, would have been.

    Then too, gven my age, I can't attest to the best of hearing potential anyway.

    Some said we can't actually hear more than 16k, so possibly the noises that some sort of less expensive cabling will introduce is not in our range?

    Maybe the 'force' has been with the Monster or now the Radio Shack stuff?

    At two locations, this stuff was professionally installed by sound engineers. Must have been an oversight or the cabling was not a 'value added profit center' back then? Marketing are always developing new concepts to aid our quests.

  10. #10
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    A true balanced input is differential. There is no reference to ground.
    Differential amplifiers amplify the difference between the plus and minus signals. Any noise that is common to the two is ignored. Hence the term differential.
    Any differential amplifier will have a spec known as CMRR. Common Mode Rejection Ratio. This is a measurement of how well it rejects hum and any unwanted noise that is common to both signals. The so called ground on balanced connections is a shield designed to keep noise and hum from the signal carrying wires.
    Interestingly most op-amps have differential inputs.

    Most "sound engineers" claim wire is wire. The best of them such as Steve Hoffman, Bernie Grundman and Bob Ludwig do not subscribe to this thought. They all use higher quality cabling and wires in their studios. They all say they can hear a difference in wires and cables. Then again they don't use JBL or Yamaha "monitors". They use audiophile type speakers as does Abbey Road Studios which uses B&W Nautilus speakers.
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  11. #11
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drmorgan
    What caught my interest about the CE article was the curious representation in other threads here that wire for speaker runs or even the power cable to the amps could make a 'sound' difference that can be heard (I presumed everyone supplies normal high content copper wire to start with)...I'm thinking that I've been stupid all these years? That Rudy Bozak was or McIntosh and Gow or even Russell?
    First of all, exotic cable technologies or the primary villain that aftermarket power cords addresses didn't exist in Rudy or Frank's lifetime. Who knows. As for Roger, he is simply deaf and incorrectly assumes that tests on various gauges of zip cord must necessarily be the only answer.

    The compelling reasons for aftermarket cabling differ depending upon the application. While "pure" copper is a great conductor, silver is better still. More importantly, cables supplied by vendors like Nordost and JPS Labs (among others) deliver considerably possess a decidedly lower dielectric constant (DC). Guys like Russell tend to focus on simplistic measures like resistance and FR. Time smearing is a more elusive characteristic to quantify.

    As for power cords, we now live in a world surrounded by electronic grunge, either radiated by cell phones, wireless routers, cordless phones, etc. or a myriad of devices using digital power supplies that readily spew their noise into your AC line. I've had many discussions with non-experiential theorists over this topic that usually make this argument:

    After miles and miles of cabling from the power station, how can the last three feet make a difference?

    Such analysis completely misses the point due to an incomplete set of assumptions. After miles and miles of plumbing from the water source, how can the last six inches (via a water filter) make a difference? The answer is fundamentally the same. The villains with audio gear live in your house. The first three feet of a power cable can certainly make a difference by shielding the power supplies from the noise. Subtle, but there.

    rw

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    First of all, exotic cable technologies or the primary villain that aftermarket power cords addresses didn't exist in Rudy or Frank's lifetime. Who knows. As for Roger, he is simply deaf and incorrectly assumes that tests on various gauges of zip cord must necessarily be the only answer.

    The compelling reasons for aftermarket cabling differ depending upon the application. While "pure" copper is a great conductor, silver is better still. More importantly, cables supplied by vendors like Nordost and JPS Labs (among others) deliver considerably possess a decidedly lower dielectric constant (DC). Guys like Russell tend to focus on simplistic measures like resistance and FR. Time smearing is a more elusive characteristic to quantify.

    As for power cords, we now live in a world surrounded by electronic grunge, either radiated by cell phones, wireless routers, cordless phones, etc. or a myriad of devices using digital power supplies that readily spew their noise into your AC line. I've had many discussions with non-experiential theorists over this topic that usually make this argument:

    After miles and miles of cabling from the power station, how can the last three feet make a difference?

    Such analysis completely misses the point due to an incomplete set of assumptions. After miles and miles of plumbing from the water source, how can the last six inches (via a water filter) make a difference? The answer is fundamentally the same. The villains with audio gear live in your house. The first three feet of a power cable can certainly make a difference by shielding the power supplies from the noise. Subtle, but there.

    rw

    Manufacturers determine the parameters, copper content, methods of what they use in their devices and what is supplied to plug them into the wall. They verify this the same way you may by measuring. You can verify supply voltage at the outlet with a voltage read usually on the same meter as Ohms.

    Here is another opinion on cabling:

    http://www.audioholics.com/education...able-resonance

    Bozak, Harmon, Klipsch, JBL, Marantz, McIntosh, and others invested an incredible amount of time and engineering to construct the means to measure subtle in both the sounds reproduced and the electronics that reproduced them.

    Unshielded cabling reveals itself audibly, and that may happen (for me it was cheap cable from the turntable to an A/B box and some years later a poor ground).

    Most of the errors or omissions are noted in proximity to other components made without appropriate methods and materials. We can't compensate for such errors and omissions with speaker cable or power cable.

    What happens in your living room has to do with what gear you purchased and your psychology. Even if you can convince your friends that you hear it, they too are responding to your influence.

    The final and objective judge for me were several generations of German Shepherd dogs (from different blood lines), who used to locate in front of Concert Grands and sleep against them. I know, they did not do as good as some speakers with the highs I can't hear, but the dogs would leave the room if the music source was distorted. That usually happened from cheap CD's or records I'd bought. The equipment was very similar over many decades in five different settings. The dogs validated the science. They also developed a taste for Jazz and Classical.

  13. #13
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drmorgan
    Bozak, Harmon, Klipsch, JBL, Marantz, McIntosh, and others invested an incredible amount of time and engineering to construct the means to measure subtle in both the sounds reproduced and the electronics that reproduced them...

    The final and objective judge for me were several generations of German Shepherd dogs (from different blood lines), who used to locate in front of Concert Grands and sleep against them.
    No offense, but audio has marched forward quite a bit over the last half century.

    rw

  14. #14
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    drmorgan: I suggest you put the AC coming out of your wall through an oscilloscope. It is quite easy to see the hash and noise that can be and is superimposed on the AC signal coming into your house. While monitoring the AC turn some of the devices in your home on and off and observe the noise hash and spikes that are generated by something as simple as a toaster or as complex as a microwave oven. Air conditioners and refrigerators are some of the worst offenders.
    There is more in an AC signal than voltage.

    BTW:
    The most vocal of the wires are wires bunch left this site and went to Audioholics. They are still pushing their mantra that all wires sound the same and a receiver sounds as good as top of the line Mark Levinson gear. If you agree with them so be it. Most people here don't.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    drmorgan: I suggest you put the AC coming out of your wall through an oscilloscope. It is quite easy to see the hash and noise that can be and is superimposed on the AC signal coming into your house. While monitoring the AC turn some of the devices in your home on and off and observe the noise hash and spikes that are generated by something as simple as a toaster or as complex as a microwave oven. Air conditioners and refrigerators are some of the worst offenders.
    There is more in an AC signal than voltage.

    BTW:
    The most vocal of the wires are wires bunch left this site and went to Audioholics. They are still pushing their mantra that all wires sound the same and a receiver sounds as good as top of the line Mark Levinson gear. If you agree with them so be it. Most people here don't.
    Yes, scopes remain a primary tool to verify components, circuit design and/or compliance. With software, an Ethernet or USB cable, some probes one may use a PC to obtain or verify data at home.

    McIntosh used them effectively at Clinics for decades to validate continued parameters of their prior sales and shops use them to determine continued compliance of components.

    I see from old photos Bozak and Russell were using them to align and specify components and validate outcomes too. Perhaps that’s a revealed the decay of tube circuits?

    I had not thought scopes would be used to suggest people buy power cords.

    I don't see the relevance given that amplifiers are designed to rectify, resolve and produce DC current just as a $300 P.C. will. We know too that the early computing systems left tubes behind as well.

    I remain unconvinced that intake power cords will defeat the objectives of sound reproduction or cure anything relevant unless they’re going to put voltage regulation into the cords. I do agree that good surge and spike protection is a sound investment, but that too will be unlikely to be ‘heard.’

    I will accept that some quality issues might impact speaker runs and I think hum or noise will be noticed just as phasing. I keep the power cords away from the speaker runs.

    I do not accept the concept that those artifacts you can see on a scope measuring or showing power intake will be a reason for distorted output in a system given the 50/60 or 100/140vac intake parameters they’re designed for (brand, model dependent). Seems to me a faulty design of the device itself comes into play if it can’t resolve typical power company power.

    Given our electric clocks resolve A/C so well it is very hard to wrap my mind around your introduction of a scope to back up your theory.

    I’ve asked myself: Could you get from a manufacturer a power cord so abnormal or complex that it can jump circuits in even an off the shelf radio and I can’t see it happening unless they’re also using the power cord as an antenna for FM.

    I don’t know much about Mark Levinson beyond hearing the name, but I know that resolving intake power issues or providing DC power output is not rocket science. Whatever makes you satisfied is fine, but giving sound advice must be ...you know, sound advice.

  16. #16
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    drmorgan:
    I don't want to sound disrespectful, but have you been living in a cave for the last 25 years?
    For someone who appears to have little or no knowledge of any audio equipment designed and made in the last 25 years you have an awful lot to say. How can you be so absolute with your pronouncements when they are based on out of date knowledge. Amplifier design, parts used and construction methods are not what they used to be.
    If you wish to believe the epitome of amplifier and circuit design was the 70's that's your choice. However, that causes your knowledge base to be sadly out of date.
    There have been quite a few advances in design and implementation of both solid state and tube gear. Threshold Stasis solid state amps and Berning OTL tube amps are but two examples.
    If you are not aware of and refuse to learn about advances in the art you have no credibility when it comes to critiquing modern gear. That lack of credibility extends to your comments about wires and cables.

    An amplifier "basically" modulates the AC coming from the wall socket. The power supply section rectifies and regulates that voltage. The rest of the amp turns that DC voltage back into AC so speakers can be driven. Any noise, hash or distortion on the AC line can effect the DC voltages amps produce and use. If you doubt this put a scope probe on the DC rails in one of your amps. Turn your air conditioner or washing machine on and of and observe the scope trace.
    Amplifiers that have fully regulated power supplies are less susceptible to AC noise and hash. The downside is fully regulated power supplies on power amps are expensive. Curiously even these amps benefit from better AC power cords. If you are curious about modern gear you could investigate products made by Krell, Bryston, Classe, Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, Pass Labs or Mark Levinson for example.
    Although I may not be as old as you I have been around for a while. I bought my first piece of gear in 1968. I however have tried to stay up to date.

    If you choose not to increase your knowledge of "modern" gear perhaps you should keep opinions based on out of date knowledge to yourself.

    BTW: If your comment about "electric" clocks refers to clocks that have an AC motor, it's the AC frequency that determines how accurate the clock is. The rotational speed of AC synchronous motors (clock motors) is directly related to the line frequency. Voltage does not effect their rotational speed. If you mean a "quartz" crystal clock, the internal quartz oscillator is the timing reference for the clock. Wall voltage and/or frequency is not relevant.
    Last edited by JoeE SP9; 06-20-2009 at 08:36 PM.
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  17. #17
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drmorgan
    I remain unconvinced that intake power cords will defeat the objectives of sound reproduction or cure anything relevant unless they’re going to put voltage regulation into the cords. I do agree that good surge and spike protection is a sound investment, but that too will be unlikely to be ‘heard.’
    Suggestion: test your speculation like many of us have done. I did not initially "believe" that cords could make an audible difference. That was until many years ago I heard some at length in my own system.

    rw

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    Out of the cave for now

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    drmorgan:
    I don't want to sound disrespectful, but have you been living in a cave for the last 25 years?
    For someone who appears to have little or no knowledge of any audio equipment designed and made in the last 25 years you have an awful lot to say. How can you be so absolute with your pronouncements when they are based on out of date knowledge. Amplifier design, parts used and construction methods are not what they used to be.
    If you wish to believe the epitome of amplifier and circuit design was the 70's that's your choice. However, that causes your knowledge base to be sadly out of date.
    There have been quite a few advances in design and implementation of both solid state and tube gear. Threshold Stasis solid state amps and Berning OTL tube amps are but two examples.
    If you are not aware of and refuse to learn about advances in the art you have no credibility when it comes to critiquing modern gear. That lack of credibility extends to your comments about wires and cables.

    An amplifier "basically" modulates the AC coming from the wall socket. The power supply section rectifies and regulates that voltage. The rest of the amp turns that DC voltage back into AC so speakers can be driven. Any noise, hash or distortion on the AC line can effect the DC voltages amps produce and use. If you doubt this put a scope probe on the DC rails in one of your amps. Turn your air conditioner or washing machine on and of and observe the scope trace.
    Amplifiers that have fully regulated power supplies are less susceptible to AC noise and hash. The downside is fully regulated power supplies on power amps are expensive. Curiously even these amps benefit from better AC power cords. If you are curious about modern gear you could investigate products made by Krell, Bryston, Classe, Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, Pass Labs or Mark Levinson for example.
    Although I may not be as old as you I have been around for a while. I bought my first piece of gear in 1968. I however have tried to stay up to date.

    If you choose not to increase your knowledge of "modern" gear perhaps you should keep opinions based on out of date knowledge to yourself.

    BTW: If your comment about "electric" clocks refers to clocks that have an AC motor, it's the AC frequency that determines how accurate the clock is. The rotational speed of AC synchronous motors (clock motors) is directly related to the line frequency. Voltage does not effect their rotational speed. If you mean a "quartz" crystal clock, the internal quartz oscillator is the timing reference for the clock. Wall voltage and/or frequency is not relevant.
    Lets see if I have this right. When you bought these new and improved components and got all this noise (some only in a dogs hearing range) you did not ask the makers to cure this ‘stuff?’ You bought new and improved cabling and even special AC power cables, power filters, power conditioners and this made sense to you? That’s great headway in music audio reproduction systems? In 1984 a desktop workstation for CAD with a 19” tube monitor that weighed 110 lbs. had a price of $50k. They improved it greatly and now I’ve a 24” monitor, two DVD drives it fast as instant, plays music, makes it, has a 1t drive with a 1t over the air back up that serves several in real time, plus Bluetooth, airport and costs less than 20% of the old slow workhorse. Something ought to register here along similar lines. Audio is less R&D and factory intensive.

    Yes, I’ve been around a bit and even run an outfit that makes and distributes far more complex devices that also handle voice and data. Been at it for only 30 years so I remain to be convinced ….by my ears or that of my friends and family. Oh and I audit routinely and have since I built my first kits (Harmon-Kardon Citation II and III) way back when you may have stopped dropping records from a player onto each other.

    My auditing included dealers and in home for over two decades before I doled out 12k for the first system to cover two outdoor areas, a library and the great room. Continued auditing (including hauling in gear to listen in the same area) from 1975-1995 resulted in investing a further 15k. Only about 5k of the initial investment was passed on to others. Meanwhile my kids began to build and they too seemed to think that quality counted.

    Last Sunday I traveled 80 miles to listen to Klipsch LaScallas and they were awesome. Klipsch as you know still build the high end stuff like they did 40 years ago (except they adopted the particle board that Bozak introduced to replace the plywood). Yes, I’ve friends in the recording business and some take it on the road as popular groups. No one seems pleased with the workaround the makers (by the way most of this gear is just from a hand full of outfits, sold under many cherished old names or supplied to be customized. It started with Superscope the supplier for the likes of Circuit City and such who snatched up Marantz when he fell on hard times in a recession. They cheaped out his turntable and other gear and that name is tarnished.

    I see these improvements as less shipping costs, more profits for building what I call end around designs. When I mentioned your claims to the real engineers who are associated with me they directed me to a few articles or thought you were kidding or naïve. I posted some URL’s on another thread.

    The names for these ‘new’ designs are many, but the facts are very simple. They were going to come from far, far away and this meant many hands and transfers and ships, planes or whatever support for marketing and the US office and so on. Margins must be greater with the acquisitions and many hands, and thus we have high prices for these items which sound not quite as good as they should unless you protect them from the stuff they create doing it on the cheap.

    So, dealers needed new and improved and it comes with many little things like the checkout at the drug store. The high profit stuff that folks shouldn’t need.

    What is new… Blue Ray is new, having our music on hard drives and playing from a computer is new. The woods and finishes are new and the prices for tubes from outfits (such as Genesis, Seattle), who build like they used to do at McIntosh), are WOW.

    Most of the ‘stuff’ that I see under the cocers looks too much like others in a different case, knobs and comes with a different manual.

    So to me the new and improved are not till a dog will nap against the speakers. Until I can close my eyes and feel as if transported into the recording session at the venue it was made in.

    Since I’m an old fart who was lucky enough to be able to hear, share some great music in and out of home.. let your ears and friends help in your selection and buy only stuff that is made to last and last. How we hear is unchanged. The stereo delivery systems were solved by JBL, Klipsch, Bozak, McIntosh, Marantz and others long ago. A host of others provided turntables, tuners and CD players. New firms have come along to offer replacements (I gather none of the above are but names these days). I had some stuff from Ampzilla, Nakamichi, Luxman, B&W, Linn, Jensen, the ‘new’ McIntosh, B&O*, Bose, (very clever the prior two), that made the dumpster. One outfit really had something new was ADS, (Digital time delay), but their gear was only to last 20 years! Now they’re gone. As I maintain, nothing new under the sun, but the names. *the turntable worked

    To conclude, I visited the site to learn what’s new and improved or to be of objective assistance. Three or four posters seem in control of the message for a large part and for reasons I don’t fathom list all their stuff with each post. I won’t return to rock your boats but am not one to sit and drool in the corner just because I’m in my seventies. For the others, seek what sounds like you are present, don’t be gullible. If outfits like Klipsch and JBL can make speakers like they did and their old amps let us hear like we were at the venue, then seek out who makes reliable hardware to match some great speakers. Well made stuff lasts with good ventilation and vacuuming once in a while.

    BTW: The clock mentioned runs on cycles and if your power needed a fix you would be keeping bad time between changes of your transformer from your utility. Good stuff resolves artifacts before it sends it off to drive your speakers that move the air.

  19. #19
    RGA
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    I have to say I almost completely agree with DrMorgan. Perhaps not so much in the names you list but on the principle of which you speak. New and improved is a lie (well mostly but I'll get to that in a moment) in 2 channel audio and examples of this can be seen in the audiophile community but so too in the recording studio.

    The pro studio selects items for equipment that has no down time - not necessarily choosing the best sounding gear - so it's important to make the distinction - arguably the best classical recording studio - Chesky Records uses tube amplifiers - chosen for sound quality and certainly not the lowest noise floors or less down time (after all a tube may blow mid session and require time to replace! Perhaps why the albums cost a bit more than average - but the payoff is better.

    As for speakers - all of my favorites are 30 year old designs or much older - some of them - as DrMorgan notes like the Klipshhorn is STILL being produced today and still selling pretty well thank you very much - it's about 50 years old. Quad electrostats 57 is still considered to be on one of the best and their replacements are essentially bigger versions. My speaker was designed in 1940 by one of the world's foremost acoustics engineers and currently serves as an opera house designer.

    What has improved - the parts. Not the design. My speakers sounds better than the 1980's variants simply because they use better woofers, matched with sophisticated computers to far higher tolerances, better caps, wiring and cabinet materials. But you could improve most 30 year old speakers simply by using better parts.

    The new and improved designs use lower quality parts less cabinet and lots and lots of white papers and technobabble, heavy advertising and anyone with quasi good hearing listens to this stuff and it's completely destroyed by a 50 year old Tannoy!

    And a good vinyl rig STILL sounds better than the best CD or SACD machines IME so while the technical superiority may be there as a storage medium the new and improved in terms of music reproduction isn't. And a good tube amp - no contest.

  20. #20
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    drmorgan:
    If by cycles you mean line frequency, you have rephrased what I said. AC synchronous clock motors rotate at a speed that is directly related to the line frequency, A noisy or slightly distorted AC sine wave wouldn't have any effect on it.

    We don't list our stuff with each post, it's called a signature. It's there so others get a better idea what our opinions are based on.

    Just what "new and improved" designs are cheaply made?

    From your posts it would seem you have no knowledge of manufacturers such as Krell, Mark Levinson, Pass Lab's, Spectral, Audio Research, Conrad Johnson and others. Please note all the manufacturers I mentioned make their products right here in the USA. There are also many makes that are designed here and made overseas. Take a look at Adcom, Emotiva and NAD. None of their products are cheaply made or flimsy.
    You obviously haven't looked at anything beyond your "vintage" gear.
    You say "I visited the site to learn what’s new and improved or to be of objective assistance."

    How can you do either when you insist that your vintage gear has not been bettered and have no knowledge of new gear?

    If you had any familiarity with newer gear, I for one would be more inclined to listen to your arguments. However, as long as you are working from an outdated knowledge base your opinions are just as outdated. Just for the record, horn speakers of any type (LaScala's included) give me a headache.
    ARC SP9 MKIII, VPI HW19, Rega RB300
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  21. #21
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    Yes, but ... and

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    drmorgan:
    If by cycles you mean line frequency, you have rephrased what I said. AC synchronous clock motors rotate at a speed that is directly related to the line frequency, A noisy or slightly distorted AC sine wave wouldn't have any effect on it.

    We don't list our stuff with each post, it's called a signature. It's there so others get a better idea what our opinions are based on.

    Just what "new and improved" designs are cheaply made?

    From your posts it would seem you have no knowledge of manufacturers such as Krell, Mark Levinson, Pass Lab's, Spectral, Audio Research, Conrad Johnson and others. Please note all the manufacturers I mentioned make their products right here in the USA. There are also many makes that are designed here and made overseas. Take a look at Adcom, Emotiva and NAD. None of their products are cheaply made or flimsy.
    You obviously haven't looked at anything beyond your "vintage" gear.
    You say "I visited the site to learn what’s new and improved or to be of objective assistance."

    How can you do either when you insist that your vintage gear has not been bettered and have no knowledge of new gear?

    If you had any familiarity with newer gear, I for one would be more inclined to listen to your arguments. However, as long as you are working from an outdated knowledge base your opinions are just as outdated. Just for the record, horn speakers of any type (LaScala's included) give me a headache.
    Mine are but opinions, don’t take it personally. I’m not anything but an experienced user of quality audio gear and I will not post brand comments or complaints about gear I've not owned.

    If it crapped out in our family or a friend does not mind my mention of their gear or experiences that's all I feel appropriate commenting upon in a public place.

    Of the brands you listed I have not heard Pass Lab's, Spectral or Conrad Johnson gear. I would be happy to opine as to a specific brand and model if I audited it outside of public post and assurance my answer won’t be posted publicly. I can speak of what I’ve owned and/or been provided to audit by an authorized dealer. To do more invites litigation and being in a similar field who gets some of the components in the same places, would be a poor idea.

    I shall soon post a comment about power quality and some interesting direct experience relative to testing with recording equipment, the impact on components and other far more sensitive electronic gear.

    U.S. ‘manufacturing’ have outsourced forever. Just in time assembly for decades. Some firms do ‘make’ complete models here. It is becoming more rare for consumer gear … usually with assemblies from relatively common imported parts and sub assemblies. Many quality levels are available with and without quality assurance. When you read that electronic gear needs to break in you should ask questions. Same with ‘new’ electronic ‘smell.’

    Off shore is not necessarily a bad thing, but the prices I see are quite unlike other similar products that use this procurement process by a huge factor. Some highly and rightly praised innovation happened in Japan, Europe and Canada. I suspect that China will do so in more and more products as well.

    Yes, I’ve seen the inside of many brands that share components, circuit boards, sub assemblies that are supplied by contractors not known for quality in other markets. After one such viewing I Googled the maker and quickly realized much we see are more unique faces and the like. I'm not even certain that the Klipsch people make the drivers in Arkansas, but they say they do assemble some.

    I don't mind purchase of gear made off shore as I have and do own much that was made thus and some of the advances in everything come from other than the USA, along with innovation.

    Indeed it is we who remain backward about measurements and our 120v primary power, for example.

    The fact I have no opinion about one of your listed items or anyone else’s should have little impact here. I'm not 'in' the market to buy and this site has a review section for that purpose. No, I’ve not been in the cave. I’ve purchased and my family members and friends have routinely since my system firmed up … sort of. I would buy something if it was going to make a difference. I might have bought the Klipsch pair or a set like them. They met the criteria.. was like being there!

    I'm surely not up to paying for errors and omissions that create a need for extraordinary cabling. Since the old gear did not need it and I can not hear it with what I have (including a much cheaper computer or more), that produce data, voice recognition and audio in other products, plus my own sound systems (4), seems someone goofed or is crafty enough to invent a glitch that will generate a special need. Good engineering design should have caught this in the lab, if they had decent gear to validate their process. Someone in their Q.A. would say: “hey Bob, this stuff makes its own noise… look at this scope! Hear it.. hey, someone find the cat.. ran off when I turned this on!” So marketing says, that’s not a bug, it is a valued added feature and off it goes to the dealer.

    At most a surge and spike unit and shielded interconnecting cabling from components have proven value. Gold and silver and oxygen free seems hype beyond the pale, IMHO

    Properly made is before each of us when we use a computer to read or post here.
    .

  22. #22
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drmorgan
    ,.. I will not post brand comments or complaints about gear I've not owned.
    You already have.

    "Alas the '70's to '80's were, from my experience when the best of the best had been invented and introduced. Since then it more about spin than sound reproduction. Tubes were left behind for a reason (the wear, unlike solid state)."

    Tube gear has not been left behind. Even for McIntosh. You have no idea how much better the following amps are vs. 70s Mac stuff.

    Audio Research REF 610T

    VTL Siegfried

    McIntosh MC 2301

    Having heard various Bozaks and 70s vintage McIntosh gear (including their current top of the line system having toured their factory in Binghamton), yours is most certainly a satisfyingly musical system. Unlike most SS amps of that vintage from companies like Crown and BGW, their sound was smooth and not edgy. The Bozaks have a fine balance, if not restricted bandwidth. Their sins are largely of omission. Having said that, there is a substantially higher level of resolution available today. The best speakers are more coherent, phase linear and have lower distortion. There are many reasons why there are zero companies today who use 3" cone tweeters (at least in statement products). They lack extension, dispersion and have much higher distortion. There is a reason why there are zero companies who use side-by-side arrays of tweeters and midranges. Are you familiar with the effect known as "comb filtering"? Image specificity suffers.

    Engineering has progressed greatly since those classics were developed. Just like virtually every other technology. I've heard a most spectacular review system of a reviewer friend who uses those VTL amps driving Scaena line array speakers. Along with EMM Labs digital front end and Nordost Odin cabling. There is no comparison for those who have experienced both.

    rw

  23. #23
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    drmorgan:
    What makes you think you are the only experienced audiophile on this site?
    ARC SP9 MKIII, VPI HW19, Rega RB300
    Marcof PPA1, Shure, Sumiko, Ortofon carts, Yamaha DVD-S1800
    Behringer UCA222, Emotiva XDA-2, HiFimeDIY
    Accuphase T101, Teac V-7010, Nak ZX-7. LX-5, Behringer DSP1124P
    Front: Magnepan 1.7, DBX 223SX, 2 modified Dynaco MK3's, 2, 12" DIY TL subs (Pass El-Pipe-O) 2 bridged Crown XLS-402
    Rear/HT: Emotiva UMC200, Acoustat Model 1/SPW-1, Behringer CX2310, 2 Adcom GFA-545

  24. #24
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    Interesting, however

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    You already have.

    "Alas the '70's to '80's were, from my experience when the best of the best had been invented and introduced. Since then it more about spin than sound reproduction. Tubes were left behind for a reason (the wear, unlike solid state)."

    Tube gear has not been left behind. Even for McIntosh. You have no idea how much better the following amps are vs. 70s Mac stuff.

    Audio Research REF 610T

    VTL Siegfried

    McIntosh MC 2301

    Having heard various Bozaks and 70s vintage McIntosh gear (including their current top of the line system having toured their factory in Binghamton), yours is most certainly a satisfyingly musical system. Unlike most SS amps of that vintage from companies like Crown and BGW, their sound was smooth and not edgy. The Bozaks have a fine balance, if not restricted bandwidth. Their sins are largely of omission. Having said that, there is a substantially higher level of resolution available today. The best speakers are more coherent, phase linear and have lower distortion. There are many reasons why there are zero companies today who use 3" cone tweeters (at least in statement products). They lack extension, dispersion and have much higher distortion. There is a reason why there are zero companies who use side-by-side arrays of tweeters and midranges. Are you familiar with the effect known as "comb filtering"? Image specificity suffers.

    Engineering has progressed greatly since those classics were developed. Just like virtually every other technology. I've heard a most spectacular review system of a reviewer friend who uses those VTL amps driving Scaena line array speakers. Along with EMM Labs digital front end and Nordost Odin cabling. There is no comparison for those who have experienced both.

    rw
    I greatly appreciate your up to date support for the new technology and the links take one to very attractive examples. Do you have a ball park cost for the compatible Preamps, Amps and Speakers for this approach?

    I posted some photos yesterday of the last space and equipment I continue to use and were compared in those home audits (last 2002, purchase 2005).

    Yes, I mentioned gear from makers who built something that failed in our family. Most I opened up were poorly engineered as to natural convection and lacked an active means to carry off heat. Too much in known brands were not the best components, boards or other internal methods of manufacturer those same brands had once been observed to use.

    Comb filtering seems to be what ADS (Willimington, MA ), were creating in their so called sound space synthesizer units. Amazing products and missed. Anyone follow them up?

    I'm positive that things have progressed but also think that’s possible to do without introduction of noise or acceptance of noise from normal home wiring. Have these firms been adding value or not? The living room system I settled upon came in at about 15k with the last mid '90's additions.

    With inflation this should become 25k now.

    Aren't you suggesting that to get modest improvement we must invest about five times this sum for the same space? From reading the specs briefly it appears that the utility may reap double the yearly cost to run this new and improved too.

    The suggestions may in fact improve sound quality, however as we see in computer technology, improvement comes with lower costs to consumers. I don't see this potential coming from this approach. As important will be how long this gear will last if used daily? I did mention some names that produced gear as, ‘new and improved’ that died sooner than expected and that I concluded from my experience due to poor design for heat dissipation.

    Thank you....

  25. #25
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    I don't

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    drmorgan:
    What makes you think you are the only experienced audiophile on this site?
    Thanks for the question.

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