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  1. #1
    nightflier
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    Choosing a Manufacturer

    There are many people who over the years have come to favor one component manufacturer over another. They buy the products as a first choice and compare everything else to these. They set up websites, discussion forums, and trade technical details about used components. Some popular manufacturers that come to mind are Krell, McIntosh, Levinson, PS Audio, Linn, Bryston, etc. If you had to choose one company who's products you would "specialize" in, which one would it be & why? Any manufacturers to avoid?

  2. #2
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    I have had the chance to hear systems that cost upwards of $500k. Of course us poor people have to draw the line somewhere. All the equipment you mentioned is top notch and you would be well served with most.

    My best purchase experience was when I bought my Odysey Stratus Amp. You call and talk to Klaus, the owner. He calls you back if not there. Although I had to wait months for mine to be built, it has been awesome since. I recently spoke to Klause because my LED burnt out and he told me to just send him a check for $20 and he would send all the parts and instructions to upgrade it to a Blue LED.

    Odysey products are for the most part assembled in USA. That in itself is a hard to find thing of the past. Their products perform as expected and better. Customer service has been the best of anything I have ever mail ordered. Upgrades offered are not too expensive, he told me for about $350, they would completely replace the guts of my amp to bring it up to snuff with what is sold today.

    I also like Hafler gear and have been using it since David Hafler was in Pensauken NJ and my brother was building his kits along with Dynaco and Heathkit. Although I have a Hafler 945 Pre/Tuner that is of Mexican Rockford era that is a bit quirky due to picking up signals from other remotes, my Hafler 9180 amp is Rock Solid and kicks the crap out of the new Harman Kardon AVR I just bought.

    For speakers, I have always had Mirage, Infinity, JM Labs and Dynaudio. Not too many speakers out there in the $2500 range that outperform my Audiance 82s. Although most of the non-outrageously priced JMs lack deep bass, they make up for it with speed and clarity.

    I also like Onkyo for mass market electronics and have had many Sony TVs including my new Bravia XBR1 40" HD LCD.

    My three cents,

    Hyfi

  3. #3
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
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    Interesting topic.

    I s'pose you're right in that it's human nature to favor one thing over another, regardless of the product. In cars you have your Ford men vs. Chevy guys or BMW over Benz. For me, I really only favor three companies; one is PS Audio, the other ARC, and finally Denon.

    PS Audio is like the first love you never forget. A PSA 4.6 pre was my first "real" piece of audio equipment and it served me well for almost 20 years before I had a major brain fart and sold the thing . That said, my allegiance isn't blind so I don't automatically proclaim everything Paul makes to be the best and brightest. For example, the GCA series doesn't romance me the way the HCA did. It's more neutral, but honestly I prefer the sweetness of the HCA series. Of course, if someone gave me a new GCA or GCC, I wouldn't exactly throw it in the trash either .

    The ARC sound is legendary and one that I've always loved. In fact, it's a sound that the HCA reminds me of the most (which is why I bought it). Whenever I hear a statement rig that rearranges my sense of what's possible, it is invariably driven my ARC. Some day when I have more time to kerfutz with tubes, I'll likely get a pair (depending on what speakers I have).

    Finally, while Denon is hardly high-end, I do consider their products to offer high value. I've had numerous products from them and in 25 years they have never let me down. Denon always seems to take their design work and parts choices just a step or three above the usual mass market...and yet still sell at very affordable prices.

  4. #4
    nightflier
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    How could I forget Odyssey & Klaus. Their components also have that fan-base quality. I've actually been talking to Klaus about the Nightingales and his new on-wall speakers, but I want to focus on components in this thread.

    I think one of the things that makes for a fan-base-type-company is personalized service, which invariably is lost with the larger manufacturers (which is why the mention of Sony and Denon seems sort of strange). I once spoke to Mr. Polk directly and two months later I had purchased a complete surround setup when surround was just getting big. My taste is now gravitating towards Paul & PS Audio. While the company isn't the same one it was 10+ years ago, I am still getting excellent personalized responses. I haven't heard the new GCC amps, but I have many pieces of older PS Audio equipment that are phenominal values (like they used to say about IBM - they live well beyond their useful lives). I also have the PCA2 / HCA2 combo and I do like the quality, the sound, as well as the service I have received.

    So I suppose what makes for a good selection is if one can name the person with the company. Here are some that come to mind for me:

    - John & Ohm
    - Paul & PS Audio
    - Klaus & Odyssey
    - Roy & Music Hall
    - Ian & Axiom Audio

    I also have regular contact with other companies but typically not the owner. I suppose for the company it's a catch-22, they want to grow, but by doing so they loose that mom & pop quality that makes customers happy. I have to hand it to Klaus at Odyssey for sticking to this despite the growth.

  5. #5
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    I'm partial to Bryston, PS Audio, and McIntosh, in that order - dont' own any though, just spent a lot of time with these 3 brands at some great stores, or lucky friends houses.
    I don't really have a favorite speaker company - Focus Audio I guess, but they're small. For the most part, I haven't met many speakers I couldn't find some appeal to, just some that I think offer me more than others.

    I think acquring brand loyalty is a crapshoot - I've owned plenty of stereo and A/V receivers. Japanese, European, American, etc. The only ones I didnt' have serious technical problems with are Yamaha and Technics. Funny thing is, Technics isn't known for its quality at all - I wouldn't recommend them to an enemy. My H/K, Marantz, Sony, and NAD (integrated) have all had problems of one sort or another. I'm on my 2nd Yamaha without fail (3rd Yamaha though, one had a small annoying problems that was fixed fast enough). After years of receivers crapping out on me, the Yammies didn't. I owned 2 Marantz receivers prior to switching to Yamaha - they both died horrible smokey deaths. I killed an H/K unit driving 4 Cerwin-Vegas in college to obscene levels. It litteraly melted. Funny thing is, the used, crappy Technics receiver I bought as a fast replacement would drive those 4 CV's and then some every day for 2 years. It would give you a 3rd degree burn if you touched it, but it wouldn't die. I think it was the K-Car of stereo receivers.

    I don't pick a brand of receiver for my needs because I think they're so much better sounding, or more feature intensive than the competition (I find them all so similar these days), but mostly because of good experience, comfort, and familiarity. Someone else will have to really impress me at this price point to get me to switch until a Yamaha unit ticks me off.

    With Bryston, I dunno, a lot of people I know prefer Krell and PS Audio over Bryston, but to these ears, Bryston comes out on top - I've just always wanted Bryston gear someday, so I think long-term anticipation and coveting has developed a bias of sorts. I love T-line speakers, PMC included, and because a lot of PMC owners use Bryston, and continue to use Bryston after moving on from PMC, some of the nicer systems I've heard had Bryston electronics.

    There's some brands I don't care for much, but the past 3 years I've really done a 180 degree turn on Dynaudio. I've repaired 2 different models now, and used a few of their old drivers. They're not really bad, just overpriced IMO. At least on this side of the pond. I've been told their much more affordable in Europe. A local store has comparably priced Revel and Dynaudio setup in the same room - he tells me the Dynaudio's sell more but to me the Revels are just sooo much better. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. But I'm not surprised they got ran out of the DIY market along with Audax. I have a feeling Scan-Speak is going that route as well, unless they start cutting the marketing BS and make high-performance pieces more affordable like the competition (but I digress).

    I don't own stock in any of these companies though, and don't consider myself to be a hardcore fanboy of any of these brands. Personally, I like the direction the industry is going - more and more small, regional companies that are offering higher quality and superior worksmanship, packaged with that unbeatable small business service. This is a good thing, IMO.

  6. #6
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    At the risk of turning this into a PS Audio lovefest

    I would still like to proclaim my enduring commitment to the brand.

    Paul's attention to his customers has to set a standard in this indusry. He has not one, but TWO forums where people can post questions about his gear, and get answers directly from him. He also makes returned/reworked gear available on Ebay, some of it at astonishingly low prices.

    http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZps_audioQQhtZ-1

    Just recently I lost my mind and nearly bought this one;

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEDW%3AIT&rd=1

    5000 watts of Ice power?!
    Audio;
    Ming Da MC34-AB 75wpc
    PS Audio Classic 250. 500wpc into 4 ohms.
    PS Audio 4.5 preamp,
    Marantz 6170 TT Shure M97e cart.
    Arcam Alpha 9 CD.- 24 bit dCS Ring DAC.
    Magnepan 3.6r speakers Oak/black,

  7. #7
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
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    Did you see the new PSA Trio amp? 150wpc into 8 ohms, 300wpc into 4. $995(!) It utilizes the same ICEpower topology as the GCA series, just without the gain cell. I think Paul has been getting some negative feedback on the neutrality of the GCA series because he purposely voiced the new Trio to be sweeter and warmer, IOW more like the previous HCA's. "Tubey" for lack of a better word. For only a grand, this seems like an absolutely killer deal. Might be fun to buy one from audioadvisor just to hear it and then send it back during the 30 day trial period.

    http://psaudio.com/products/trio_a100_overview.asp

  8. #8
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    That's not right

    Quote Originally Posted by topspeed
    Did you see the new PSA Trio amp? 150wpc into 8 ohms, 300wpc into 4. $995(!) It utilizes the same ICEpower topology as the GCA series, just without the gain cell. I think Paul has been getting some negative feedback on the neutrality of the GCA series because he purposely voiced the new Trio to be sweeter and warmer, IOW more like the previous HCA's. "Tubey" for lack of a better word. For only a grand, this seems like an absolutely killer deal. Might be fun to buy one from audioadvisor just to hear it and then send it back during the 30 day trial period.

    http://psaudio.com/products/trio_a100_overview.asp
    Actually the GCA scored another "A" rating from Stereophile, and they appear to be selling quite well. I do agree with you though that the "less then perfect" attributes of the HCA actually ADD to it's appeal. I am interested in what a Trio would bring to my setup, but right now I'm wrestling with another major upgrade to my HT, so it's going to have to wait.
    Audio;
    Ming Da MC34-AB 75wpc
    PS Audio Classic 250. 500wpc into 4 ohms.
    PS Audio 4.5 preamp,
    Marantz 6170 TT Shure M97e cart.
    Arcam Alpha 9 CD.- 24 bit dCS Ring DAC.
    Magnepan 3.6r speakers Oak/black,

  9. #9
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
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    Spill it, Geoff.

  10. #10
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    Unlike some of the responders I have never had any premature failures. It would seem I've been lucky in this respect. Having never owned a receiver I have never experienced any of the problems their owners have. From the first component I purchased (Fisher KX-90 Integrated in 1967) to the present I can't report any failures.
    A number of things have simply worn out. A couple of Sony tape decks and several inexpensive CD and DVD players have expired on me. In the case of the Sony cassette decks, I had two that lasted 8 and 10 years respectively. At that point they're not worth repairing. Besides, I think I got my moneys worth. As far as the CD/DVD players go they were all a year or so past warranty. When the warranty period is over they're usually not worth the repair costs even if I do the repairs.


    Audio Research Corporation
    In the early eighties I started hearing about ARC. It was around that time I started reading Stereophile. I read some reviews of ARC gear and was impressed.
    I bought a used ARC SP3-A to replace a worked Dyna PAS-3. It cost me $500 bucks and was worth every penny. It sounded so much better than the Dyna it really was jaw dropping. The only thing it ever needed was a tube change every year or so. Of the 4 ARC preamps I've used, all have always worked perfectly. To this day I've never owned a preamp from another manufacturer.
    ARC SP9 MKIII, VPI HW19, Rega RB300
    Marcof PPA1, Shure, Sumiko, Ortofon carts, Yamaha DVD-S1800
    Behringer UCA222, Emotiva XDA-2, HiFimeDIY
    Accuphase T101, Teac V-7010, Nak ZX-7. LX-5, Behringer DSP1124P
    Front: Magnepan 1.7, DBX 223SX, 2 modified Dynaco MK3's, 2, 12" DIY TL subs (Pass El-Pipe-O) 2 bridged Crown XLS-402
    Rear/HT: Emotiva UMC200, Acoustat Model 1/SPW-1, Behringer CX2310, 2 Adcom GFA-545

  11. #11
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Ok

    Quote Originally Posted by topspeed
    Spill it, Geoff.
    It has to do with panels. Lots and lots of panels.....
    Audio;
    Ming Da MC34-AB 75wpc
    PS Audio Classic 250. 500wpc into 4 ohms.
    PS Audio 4.5 preamp,
    Marantz 6170 TT Shure M97e cart.
    Arcam Alpha 9 CD.- 24 bit dCS Ring DAC.
    Magnepan 3.6r speakers Oak/black,

  12. #12
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    I like Conrad-Johnson, Krell & Primare, for just what you all mentioned, customer service. Krell and C-J has always answered my email promptly and answered the question without a BS generalization. I'm not as hot on Primare products as the former 2 companies but they have answered my emails and talked with me over the phone on issues I've had with their products. I am a huge Dynaudio fan but in contrast I asked them one time to recommend what series or model would go with an amp and they sent me a reply that any of them would work. Well at the time I had a Krell 300i and I don't think it would be advisable to pair it up with a Confidence or higher. I sent them a reply telling them if they can't answer someone's question don't bother with a reply. I did have another issue at one time where I contacted the North American distributor for Dynaudio and they were more helpful than contacting the factory website.

    Topper, one of the better systems I've heard was ARC electronics but I auditioned some ARC gear when I was serious about checking into tubes and I was sorely disappointed in the sound. I dropped the $3,500.00 LS16 and the solid state D150 power amp in my system and I hated it. I then done a lot of research and asking questions because no other tube gear was available in my area, so I'd have to buy through the internet or at least from out of town. My Rogue audition fell through. I ended up bringing in a C-J tube pre and power amp in. It's fabulous. C-J is just what I was looking for. The sound is incredible and musical. So much so, I kept it and moved the Krell out. Actually, it is everything I was looking for but not, just what I was looking for, because I had no idea tube gear could sound like this. I found it a terrific value because the C-J was able to convey micro and macro dynamics I didn't even hear from gear costing many times more.

  13. #13
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
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    Mr. P,

    Certainly nothing wrong with CJ! I have a friend that was using CJ's for a awhile (don't remember the model) until he switched to Rowland...which he switched out for Copeland. This is not to say one is better than the other as he goes through equipment like Wilt Chamberlain went through women.

    That's the great thing about his hobby, if we all liked the same sound we'd be bragging about our Bose systems .

  14. #14
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    Right. I only mentioned my experience with ARC because I was shocked at the sound of the recent gear. I don't know if they have changed their sound or if the older system I heard had other components that gave it a good synergy.

  15. #15
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    I can not comment on some of the higher end brands like ps audio, etc. I have heard many great things about a lot of these companies.

    However I am not Brand loyal, I am product loyal. As all companies, not ever product made is top notch. I will look towards certain companies because of there reputation, like I did when I was look for an a/v reciever. I wound up with a Yamaha. However when I look in the future for a second reciever or a replacement for the yamaha I will look at yamaha, denon, seperates perhaps, and others but I will not say it must be a yamaha because it has been good to me so far. Companies change over time some get better, some get worse, especially with the bigger companies. My brother has a Sony rack system from 1985 still works, with no problems. I bought one in the mid 90's because of how great his was (brand loyalty) well I got srewed the reciever started having problems shortly after the warranty experied. I started to get popping noises and static out of it on every source except, video1 and then it finally died. A lot of people I speak with are not as happy with sony today as there were years ago with Sony in general.

    But I feel being brand loyal with any type of product can be bad. I bought a VW jetta in 2000 because Consumer Reports was giving it a must buy rating and how great VW is. The very next year it was rated one of the worst 10 cars and the VW company was rated the second worst car company. Talking about a 180.

    I guess what I'm saying is don't blindly buy a product because company X makes it. Always do the research. I always amazed at how people will spend hundreds or thousands of dollars and wonder why their product stinks.
    Yamaha RX-V2500
    PSB Image T65
    PSB Image C60
    PSB Image S50
    Yamaha YST-SW1500
    Mitsubishi WS-55807
    Sony DVP-NC875V SACD
    Logitech Harmony 880
    Iriver Ihp-120 MP3 Player

  16. #16
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Well these are the brands that i love and if nothing better comes along i will stay with

    Apogee- Timeless Masterpieces, Eng. Goodness of the highest order and for me the highest expression in musical emotion and correctness

    Wadia- Leaders in digital technology and my dream dac and transport comes from Wadia

    Come to think of it....i rest my case

    I also like Pathos, RM-Eng, Usher and Rega, dcs and Accuphase
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  17. #17
    Tyler Acoustics Fan drseid's Avatar
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    I tend to go for small, unknown companies that I can build a relationship with the owner/designer...

    To that end, Tyler Acoustics, Merlin and Salk Sound are three favorites of mine. On the electronics side, Coda is my brand of choice.

    In the case of Tyler, apart from his speakers being of extremely high quality build and sound-wise (not to mention bang for the buck), the guy is just a normal guy who is not at all wealthy. He is just a nice guy who found that a hobby he had a talent for could be turned into a business that makes enough money to allow his family to make ends meet. Ty will sit down and have beer with you (nothing fancy, just some Bud or Miller) and talk audio (or anything else) for hours on end. He makes no boasts about his speakers compared to the competition, letting their performance speak for itself. It is this kind of guy/business that I have no problem parting with my hard earned money to support.

    Some of the other larger companies that I also have a preference for are Von Schweikert, McIntosh, Ayon and Sonus Faber.

    ---Dave
    Integra DHC-40.2 Pre/Pro
    Coda 2 X 200 Watt Amp
    Rotel RB-985 5 X 100 Watt Amp
    2 Tyler Acoustics 2 Piece Linbrook Signature System
    1 Tyler Linbrook Signature Center Channel
    3 Tyler Taylo Reference Monitors
    1 ACI Titan II Sub
    Toshiba HD-A1 HD DVD
    Panasonic BDT-210 + 350 Blu-ray
    Consonance Droplet CDP-5.0
    Sony 55NX-810 1080p 3D-LED HDTV

    Office:
    Opera Audio Consonance CD-120
    Jolida 1301A 2 X 30 Watt Int. Amp (Sovtek Tubes)
    Opera Audio Consonance Eric-1 Speakers

  18. #18
    nightflier
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    So what I'm hearing is that a personal relationship, perhaps not with any one in particular, is what makes for a good company. If you can reach someone who's knowledgeable and willing to help, that establishes a positive experience and if repeated (hopefully not because of shoddy products needing constant help), then this builds brand-loyalty. It's interesting that sound (which is what these components are supposed to be for) is quite a bit further down the priority list.

    I also wonder about looks. No one has mentioned this, but it seems as if this is pretty much at the bottom of the list. I used to drool over Perreaux amps in the catalogs back when AA was still carrying them - I'm referring to the curved-bezel ones, not the white-front stuff. Recently I've had the opportunity to actually try out one of these, and appart from looks, I was not very impressed (nothing bad, but also nothing to write home about). What was even more vexing was that there are very few people who own them, almost no-one to call/email for assistance, and they have all but disappeared from the American market. Ironically the same is true somewhat for Plinius. Is there some kind of anti-oceanic collusion I'm not aware of?

    Anyhow, I know looks are important for speakers, but for components, does it matter? If so, why?

  19. #19
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
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    Hmmm...another good question.

    I think it depends on the application. For my office, I bought Cambridge not only because it synergized with my speakers but also because I preferred its elegant aesthetics over NAD, which has looks only a mother could love. Truth be told, I preferred the somewhat ballsier sound of the NAD, but couldn't bare to think of those olive green chunks sitting out in my office where I'd have to stare at it all day, not to mention my clients!

    At home, I listen in the dark and usually with my eyes closed so aesthetics aren't nearly as important as sound quality. Now, I am married so this is not to say appearances don't matter! That said, my stack is a discordant mishmash of black, silver, and various shades of polished aluminum so really, all I need now is some CJ gold equipment and I'll really clash!

    On the rare occasion you combine great sonics with stunning looks, then you've really got something. I have no idea how this would sound (wildly warm and romantic is my guess), but how cool would it be to have this little Shanling/Hovland rig?

    Shanling CDT100


    Hovland Sapphire & Radia




    BTW,
    I didn't mention Von Schweikert, even though I usually throw them into the mix and have found my conversations with Kevin and Albert to be very enjoyable. Like Ty, these are just a couple of ordinary guys that simply love audio and music and are amazingly willing to share their ideas with anybody. That said, VSA's prices have simply gone through the roof this year and as good as Albert's designs are, I can't help but feel some of the value has gone the way of the Packard. A VR4jr at $3999 is a no-brainer. At $5,500...um, not so much.

  20. #20
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    As for me, sound quality is my primary concern. Most of my opinions on manufacturers has been formed by contacts after I've had the equipment. For instance, Dynaudio, I was not happy with my reply from them but bought their speakers anyway because I thought they were the best out of the brands I've heard.

    I have never bought equipment on looks. Behind the glass of my left row of shelves you'd see the square black face of the shoebox shaped Audio Note DAC, below that is my Krell 280cd in silver, below that is my Conrad-Johnson preamp.

    Now.... one time in my early days of audio, and being married, I did compromise and scratch a pair of Electro-Voice 1502's off my speakers to purchase list. The 1502's rocked, a 15" 2-way with a horn driver for the high end. EV had some of the best horn drivers I've heard. Anyway, the 1502's were finished in lovely road resistant carpet. My wife dug her heels in and said, "I don't want those in my living room". "Why not", I protested. "You don't put things like that in a living room". "You don't?" "NO!" Well, I was teetering between those and a pair of Infinity Kappa 7's anyway and since I could employee purchase the Infinity and spend much less money, and keep peace in the house, I went with the Kappa's.

  21. #21
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    The PS Trio -- a jaw-dropper

    Quote Originally Posted by topspeed
    Did you see the new PSA Trio amp? 150wpc into 8 ohms, 300wpc into 4. $995(!) It utilizes the same ICEpower topology as the GCA series, just without the gain cell. I think Paul has been getting some negative feedback on the neutrality of the GCA series because he purposely voiced the new Trio to be sweeter and warmer, IOW more like the previous HCA's. "Tubey" for lack of a better word. For only a grand, this seems like an absolutely killer deal. Might be fun to buy one from audioadvisor just to hear it and then send it back during the 30 day trial period.

    http://psaudio.com/products/trio_a100_overview.asp
    The Trio A-100 is unparallel. For its price, nothing comes close. The Bel Canto e.One S300 was looking good to me, but it's another $400.

    Is it a whole new era of quality sound for much less money? Could be.

    By the way, they make selling the old stuff you for payed $2000-3000 a pretty dismal prospect.

  22. #22
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    Nightflier mentioned them, but no others. Bryston.

    Good value, indestructable, responsive to customers, and that 20 year transferable warranty. Now there's confidence in your own stuff.

    Besides, they sell to the proffesional community, a community long known for major audio component abuse.

    Great reviews and easily found used. nuff said.

  23. #23
    nightflier
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    Yes Bryston is one standout company, although they don't score any points on looks. Someone also suggested Classe both for looks (those rounded corners) and performance. PS Audio's new stuff is a little trendy-techy on looks but I suppose it's a matter of taste. Anything with tubes is usually shiny and glowing, but even Cary seems to be toning things down lately and it's actually unfortunate that many manufacturers (Jolida, AR come to mind) are now hiding the tubes inside the components more & more.

    But for the solid state camp, I have to say that looks are often an aftertought. While I don't think it should hinder the functionality and interoperability (like with B&O), I do think that if you're going to spend $5000 on a preamp it should look a little different. And I also think that at that price point, an exotic design should have a function as well.

  24. #24
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    For looks, I love Mac

    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    There are many people who over the years have come to favor one component manufacturer over another. They buy the products as a first choice and compare everything else to these. They set up websites, discussion forums, and trade technical details about used components. Some popular manufacturers that come to mind are Krell, McIntosh, Levinson, PS Audio, Linn, Bryston, etc. If you had to choose one company who's products you would "specialize" in, which one would it be & why? Any manufacturers to avoid?
    So does this guy I would say!!
    ...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Choosing a Manufacturer-macrack.jpg  

  25. #25
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    Where did he hide the air conditioner?

    All the heat at the bottom of the stack?

    Damn, you could buy a Ferrari for that much money.

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