Blind listening verses Sighted Listening..good read

[3db]

So this is only about speakers, and most people think that just because a speaker is bigger, it automatically sounds better. Not true at all. My tiny Dynaudio 42s will outperform many floors tanders and if done blindly would win the votes.

Also, noted was the question of what was the reference for all comparisons? There seemed to be none so which speaker sounded better....than what?

I'm pretty sure you can hear a difference between Synergistic Research $800 speaker cables vs $200 Tara Labs weather your looking or not.

Each of the speakers they tested would also sound different between cables and sources which could account for the blind choices if the synergy between source and smaller speakers was in reality better than with the towers.

None of these tests seem to cover all the bases and leave themselves open to question.

Blind testing of speakers implies level matched output as well as using the same source through out the test. The only variable will be the speaker being auditioned.

What I find interesting is that were no difference between audiophiles and audiophytes and they both liked disliked the same speakers during the blind test and that only sighted tests swayed the results. Coincident? I don't think so.

[Hyfi]

Blind testing of speakers implies level matched output as well as using the same source through out the test. The only variable will be the speaker being auditioned.

That was my point, the $3500 pair was not a good match for the sources but when looking at them you would assume they must sound better. There are plenty of smaller less expensive speakers that would rival many of the mega buck floorstanders. If you saw a 11 inch box next to a 4 foot tall box, wouldn't you assume the bigger is better?

[3db]

That was my point, the $3500 pair was not a good match for the sources but when looking at them you would assume they must sound better. There are plenty of smaller less expensive speakers that would rival many of the mega buck floorstanders. If you saw a 11 inch box next to a 4 foot tall box, wouldn't you assume the bigger is better?

eliminate the souce problem by running the tests thru a powerful SS amp pre-amp combo that will be used for all speakers. Its just the speakers being tested and not the source.

[RGA]

eliminate the souce problem by running the tests thru a powerful SS amp pre-amp combo that will be used for all speakers. Its just the speakers being tested and not the source.

The problem is that some us think that powerful SS amps suck ass are low resolving amplifiers and make a homegeneous presentation - and in blind test most low impedence high power power amps are viewed to "sound the same." Even the top SS makers in blind level matched auditions prefer tube amps http://www.stereophile.com/reference/70/

Having said that - certainly people are swayed with their eyes and certainly people buy based on looks, impressive technologies.

Hi-Fi Choice magazine does level matched blind auditions with panels of reviewers grading the speakers - I would not put all my stock in a blind test because there is always a minority who "chose the other one" and unless you yourself are in the test then you will never know if you were in the majority or the minority. Claiming to be an audiophile does not mean you have better hearing than the average non audiophile - so that point of interest to me is not a point of interest since to be quite frank - many audiophile own expensive gear that is no better than a lot of less expensive gear - claiming to be an audiophile based on dollars spent is alltogether different. High negative feedback amplfiers are not quality amplifiers IMO - and I can't think of a single exception that I have heard.

[markw]

Ultimately, in spite of all the whining about the inadequacies of the test, the simple fact is that the different results between sighted and blind listening, even for preference only, is very, very telling.

Wiggle all you want. There ain't no escaping that simple fact.

[RGA]

Ultimately, in spite of all the whining about the inadequacies of the test, the simple fact is that the different results between sighted and blind listening, even for preference only, is very, very telling.

Wiggle all you want. There ain't no escaping that simple fact.

Does it tell us anyone with one wit of logic would not already know. Most audio shoppers are male - most males shop with their eyes - in every aspect of life males are visually motivated - in women we choose, sleek car lines, and audio equipment certainly would not be different. We're also ego driven - more money makes the man - certainly true of Money first capitalist countries - namely but certainly not limited to Americans.and Asian countries which are communist in name only but follow capitalism more than Americans could ever dream of. Compared to where I live in China - America is pure socialism!

No one needs a blind test to illustrate these truths. What a blind test does not prove is that A and B sound the same, it does not prove anything "outside" the test environment specifically.

For instance you could listen to A and B (Whatever product) sighted and prefer A and then blind fail to choose A - if the test mattered a damn then when you went back to sighted you would "believe" they sounded the same. But if you still prefer A then you're stuck because the REAL valid usual experience is sighted - and if A you deem better to you then it's better to you and you buy it. DBT's in audio score real low points in the area of validity - it is 100% irrifutable psychologuically true - the engineers may not get it but they're not scientists and there are so many holes in their 16 trial test that is laughable to anyone with a grade 9 science education. The test is great - the conclusions drawn are astoundingly bad.

[Jimmy C]

[QUOTE=RGA]Does it tell us anyone with one wit of logic would not already know. Most audio shoppers are male - most males shop with their eyes - in every aspect of life males are visually motivated - in women we choose, sleek car lines, and audio equipment certainly would not be different.

I can remember bringing a few friends to Audio Den here on Long Island, (still there...audioden.com) when they had a much smaller store at their beginning. $h!t... going back almost 30 years. My friend Joe Low (yup... his real name... try telling that to the Police) looking at the window display, and said: "I like those"!

He was referring to an early Polk, not sure of the model no., 10C maybe? about a 10" drone on the bottom, two side-by-side 6" or so mid-woofs, and a tweeter on top. He didn't even listen to 'em yet!

Actually, they did sound pretty good at the time, but...

Yes, we shop with our eyes.

[3db]

The problem is that some us think that powerful SS amps suck ass are low resolving amplifiers and make a homegeneous presentation - and in blind test most low impedence high power power amps are viewed to "sound the same." Even the top SS makers in blind level matched auditions prefer tube amps http://www.stereophile.com/reference/70/

Having said that - certainly people are swayed with their eyes and certainly people buy based on looks, impressive technologies.


.

SS vs tube is a personal taste thing and their is no right nor wrong. The lieks of Anthem, Bryston, SImAudio whicgh are SS amps are not low resolving amps by a long shot. I don't think their is a seperates amp out there that you can classify as low resolviong. Do a spectal analysis on the input signal and teh output signal and the only thing one should see is a difference in ampitude.

[RGA]

SS vs tube is a personal taste thing and their is no right nor wrong. The lieks of Anthem, Bryston, SImAudio whicgh are SS amps are not low resolving amps by a long shot. I don't think their is a seperates amp out there that you can classify as low resolviong. Do a spectal analysis on the input signal and teh output signal and the only thing one should see is a difference in ampitude.

Actually if you buy into DBT's the "right" is tubes - the only DBT that could possibly worth a damn is the preference based ones. Tubes show up in DB tests and they are chosen over SS amps - maybe there is a reason like umm they sound more like the real thing perhaps. And Colloms found that even the top SS manufacturers prefered an older cheaper (in some cases FAR FAR cheaper tube amp. I thought that would be a good thing for the DBT lovers - the cheaper component chosen by the expensive SS engineers.

The measurements are irrelevant the ear is a far better instrument because unlike any and all measurements - it is connected to the brain which interprets the information it gets from the ears - that interface is the only I repeat for the sheep who don't listen but read - is the ONLY thing that matters.

[3db]

Actually if you buy into DBT's the "right" is tubes - the only DBT that could possibly worth a damn is the preference based ones. Tubes show up in DB tests and they are chosen over SS amps - maybe there is a reason like umm they sound more like the real thing perhaps. And Colloms found that even the top SS manufacturers prefered an older cheaper (in some cases FAR FAR cheaper tube amp. I thought that would be a good thing for the DBT lovers - the cheaper component chosen by the expensive SS engineers.

The measurements are irrelevant the ear is a far better instrument because unlike any and all measurements - it is connected to the brain which interprets the information it gets from the ears - that interface is the only I repeat for the sheep who don't listen but read - is the ONLY thing that matters.

Don't push your personal tastes as the audiophile guidleline. To you tubes sound better than SS and that I can accept but its not like that for everyone else. Tubes by their nature are richer in even order harmonics which makes it sound better to most but its not a faithful reproduction of the signal. These even order harmonics are added into the signal.

Secondaly ears are very personal and only you hear what you hear. I can't hear what your hearing. If I like the sound of a SS amp over a tube amp, its not becuase of the measurements and it doesn't make me wrong and you right. Just stop with the broad sweeping generalizations you make. Audio is subjective at best and you trying to lord your opinions on everyone else isn;t going to make it right.

[E-Stat]

The problem is that some us think that powerful SS amps suck ass are low resolving amplifiers and make a homegeneous presentation

There are exceptions. One of the things that struck me decades ago was how successful Nelson Pass was with balancing the different requirements of low and high power outputs. Then, with the Stasis concept, he literally put two amplifiers in one chassis with their outputs combined in a similar (but more sophisticated) approach found in the Quad 405. Unlike the 405, however, there is zero overall feedback and no reliance upon cheapo op amps and wimpy output sections. My '81 Stasis 3 runs on the class A voltage amp up to about 4 watts / channel (out of 200 @ 4 ohms). The AB current amp takes over past there. Low level resolution is thus excellent. Another reason I purchased it was that the amp was specifically designed to drive the nasty output of the Dayton-Wright electrostats. Its 32 output devices obviate the need for any protection circuitry. For most of its life, it drove Acoustat 2+2s. Today it enjoys a leisurely retirement driving double New Advents where it runs pretty much exclusively on the sweet voltage amp.

His current XA amps use a similar, but fundamentally simpler concept, with even better results. It begins with a simple two-stage single ended class A amp that dominates the low power range. Above a particular threshold, it transitions to a high current - but still class A - output.

I will definitely agree that well designed, but simple circuits sound the best.

rw

[E-Stat]

The only variable will be the speaker being auditioned.

While it may be the only *variable*, that does not mean that the results of the test aren't affected by the particular choice of amplifier and cable used. My experience has shown that system matching is critical for optimum results. Which is why I find it difficult to get excited over any single component because it may or may not be the best solution across multiple systems.

The amplifiers I use with the electrostats do not fare as well on my vintage speakers. Conversely, the amplifier I use with them doesn't do as well with the stats. Which is why I don't contribute much to the "which speaker should I buy with this amplifier" sort of question. My approach is to begin with the speaker and buy the best suited amp and speaker cable.

rw

[3db]

While it may be the only *variable*, that does not mean that the results of the test aren't affected by the particular choice of amplifier and cable used. My experience has shown that system matching is critical for optimum results. Which is why I find it difficult to get excited over any single component because it may or may not be the best solution across multiple systems.

The amplifiers I use with the electrostats do not fare as well on my vintage speakers. Conversely, the amplifier I use with them doesn't do as well with the stats. Which is why I don't contribute much to the "which speaker should I buy with this amplifier" sort of question. My approach is to begin with the speaker and buy the best suited amp and speaker cable.

rw

I respectively disagree with you but before I go on, I would not buy spekaers soley on DBT because their is the WAF which is probablyu one of the biggest factors in purchasing speakers, espcially large floor standing types.

I disagree with you that with a poweful solid state amp that cable matching and speaker matching is critical. I beleive all SS and all cables/interconnects sound the same and that
can be easily tested thru a DBT test. Hence the value in DBT.

Speakers are very subjective and one either likes the sound or doesn't. I don't see much value there but for things such as SS amps and cables, a DBT would finally dispell that myth.

[E-Stat]

I disagree with you that with a poweful solid state amp that cable matching and speaker matching is critical.

With how many electrostatic speakers (with their unusually demanding reactive load) have you compared amplifiers?

rw

[3db]

With how many electrostatic speakers (with their unusually demanding reactive load) have you compared amplifiers?

rw

What amplifier characteristics are you matching exactly?

Now I do see the need to match speakers with tube amps given a tube's amp relative low power outputs and the fact that impedance also needs to be matched. But in a SS amp, there is no need for impedance matching.

[E-Stat]

What amplifier characteristics are you matching exactly?

Hint: I already provided one answer.

rw

[3db]

Hint: I already provided one answer.

rw

I saw no electrical property hinted too by you. All I saw is your prference for amps to what speakers you own. So the question still stands. What electrical properties are you trying to match with your speakers?