Audiophiles beware, the other senses are more connected than you think.

[Hyfi]

You may believe what you want. I refer you back to my original post that started this friendly debate. If a system sounds to bright at nominal listening levels in one's room, than either change the speakers or alter the speaker/room interaction with acoustic tweeks to the room. I personally won't buy any component that imparts its own sonic signature with speakers being the sole exception. That's just bad systems engineering.

That is a good idea, BUT, without spending a dime, I took a system with known bright speakers (JM Lab) and tamed them with a Known Bassy cable that I had lying around and it solved my problem and made the system enjoyable.

Who is anyone to tell me that I am wrong for doing that? If it was your money I was spending, sure I would have bought a new pair of speakers that are not bright, like all my Dynaudio speakers.

[3db]

If it was your money I was spending, sure I would have bought a new pair of speakers that are not bright, like all my Dynaudio speakers.

Just speakers ??

[Hyfi]

I just found this interesting info from an MFG posted on another HE site. Note the last paragraph

"some general recommendations from the goldmund/Job people for cabling, electrical issues, etc...

The Goldmund Ultra-fast Electronics Idiosyncrasies
In order to reproduce the transients and the dynamics in music with a lifelike quality, the Goldmund electronics uses extremely wide bandwidth in their circuitry, with literally zero phase error and time error. This is the main difference in the way they are designed.
However, this extreme bandwidth in the circuitry is making the Goldmund electronics more susceptible to be affected by incorrect installation and cabling. When proper care is not applied to the cabling, the grounding and the AC power connection of a Goldmund system, severe RF problems may be created, with danger for the speakers and power amplifiers, as well as serious sonic degradation.
The following information must be reviewed carefully and applied properly for the system to be immune of these problems.
The best sounding grounding schemes
The most difficult and important connection in a top quality system is the ground connection.
If not properly made, hum, distortion and instability may be induced. As for balanced connection, that Goldmund strongly disapprove, a bad grounding connection may literally ruin the lifelike dynamics that any really up-to-date system may reproduce.
The schematics recommended by Goldmund is known as the "Star System" as used in top measurement laboratories working on small signal levels.
In a Star System, only one central component (usually the preamplifier or multi-channel processor) is connected to the building ground (through the AC line connection or directly to an earthing post), and all other components are not.The ground connection is then properly made by the signal ground and if good quality coaxial is used for interconnecting the components (as the Goldmund interconnects and Lineal cables), the full system is totally shielded. For a top Goldmund system, the use of such high quality coaxial cable is mandatory for sound quality, perfect shielding and speed of transfer.
By simply lifting the AC wire ground connection of all other components, the star system is immediately built. However, for safety reasons as well as local regulation application, it is even better to link each component to the central unit by an additional very thick ground wire, connected to the yellow earth binding post of the components. On the central unit (preamplifier, ...), the black (signal ground) and yellow (earth) post may then be linkedIf the AC line ground is of the highest quality, the grounding system will improve sound and noise floor. If not, a real building earthing post must be used to connect the yellow post and the AC line ground must be lifted from the AC line too. Be careful that this type of installation must be made and controlled by a qualified technician to provide the perfect safety and quality.
The AC line polarity
From country to country, and even building to building, the AC line polarity may vary. The effect on sound of a wrong AC polarity is not common knowledge and this specific problem is usually neglected.
On a fast system like a full Goldmund system, the sonic effect of reversing the polarity of the electronic components may be far from negligible.
To properly adjust the polarity of each components, there are two different methods : the experimental approach, and the scientific approach.
To detect the proper polarity using the experiemental approach, the full system must be compared in sound quality with successively each component reversed. Usually, the sound is immediately more dynamic and open when the polarity is correct. To test a full system is a tedious and very long process, each component acting with the others and the number of combination being very high. Be patient. In a top sounding system, the result may be dramatic.
If you prefer to use the scientific approach, read our AC Polarity Measurement page. You need to have a very good high impedance AC voltmeter with high sensitibility. In some areas, small accessories may be acuired to help you detect by a simple measurement which polarity is the best. But we will recommend the full approach
To invert each component's polarity, a quite practical solution is provided by the Goldmund AC-Curator which has a separate polarity switch for each low-level output makes the choice very easy, even if the near-perfect isolation provided makes it far less critical. For components directly connected to a wall plug, the use of a special adapter may be necessary.
The Cabling problems
Choice of cables in an audio system has been very much pushed as a way to improve any system in the press during the last decades. No need to come back on the fact that cables sound different. But what seems less understood is that the sound of a cable is very dependent of the connected components. There is no such thing as the absolute best cable for any type of connection.
In a Goldmund system where the speed of the signal is mandatory and kept very high throughout, coaxial is the only reasonable solution. It is not only the best solution for digital cables, or for interconnect, but is also the best solution for speaker cables.
In addition to the speed that coaxial may help to maintain, the perfect shielding that the best ones may provide is mandatory to avoid oscillations.
But there are also some additional tricks.
To insure a perfect stability in a system, the input cables (interconnects) of an amplifier must absolutely be kept apart from the output cables (speaker cables). Otherwise the high frequency antenna created by the shielding ground of the speaker cable may, if the system is imperfectly earthed, radiate to the ground of the input cable and create a high frequency loop, inducing oscillation of the power amplifier. Run the cables separate or cross them at right angles and your system will be totally immune to this effect.
More, when you use long interconnects to a stereo or multi-channel power amplifier, run them close together, to avoid creating ground loop which will induce hum or buzz if you are in a bad RF area.
And finally, when the choice exist, and you are using Goldmund interconnects and Speaker cables, choose to run longer Speaker cables and shorter interconnects rather than the opposite. Loss of quality is faster in long interconnects than in long Goldmund Speaker cables because the carried impedance is higher.

[Feanor]

I just found this interesting info from an MFG posted on another HE site. Note the last paragraph

"some general recommendations from the goldmund/Job people for cabling, electrical issues, etc...

...
The Cabling problems
Choice of cables in an audio system has been very much pushed as a way to improve any system in the press during the last decades. No need to come back on the fact that cables sound different. But what seems less understood is that the sound of a cable is very dependent of the connected components. There is no such thing as the absolute best cable for any type of connection.
In a Goldmund system where the speed of the signal is mandatory and kept very high throughout, coaxial is the only reasonable solution. It is not only the best solution for digital cables, or for interconnect, but is also the best solution for speaker cables.
In addition to the speed that coaxial may help to maintain, the perfect shielding that the best ones may provide is mandatory to avoid oscillations.
But there are also some additional tricks.
To insure a perfect stability in a system, the input cables (interconnects) of an amplifier must absolutely be kept apart from the output cables (speaker cables). Otherwise the high frequency antenna created by the shielding ground of the speaker cable may, if the system is imperfectly earthed, radiate to the ground of the input cable and create a high frequency loop, inducing oscillation of the power amplifier. Run the cables separate or cross them at right angles and your system will be totally immune to this effect.
More, when you use long interconnects to a stereo or multi-channel power amplifier, run them close together, to avoid creating ground loop which will induce hum or buzz if you are in a bad RF area.
And finally, when the choice exist, and you are using Goldmund interconnects and Speaker cables, choose to run longer Speaker cables and shorter interconnects rather than the opposite. Loss of quality is faster in long interconnects than in long Goldmund Speaker cables because the carried impedance is higher.

I certainly believe the part about the cable, input, and output being an interdependent system.

I also note the recommendation that interconnects be kept relatively short at the price, if necessary, of speaker cables being longer.

[Hyfi]

I certainly believe the part about the cable, input, and output being an interdependent system.

I also note the recommendation that interconnects be kept relatively short at the price, if necessary, of speaker cables being longer.

Yeah, the last one baffled me a bit because I have mostly observed people with mono blocks placing them next to the speakers with short speaker cables and longer ICs.

[JohnMichael]

The Cabling problems
Choice of cables in an audio system has been very much pushed as a way to improve any system in the press during the last decades. No need to come back on the fact that cables sound different. But what seems less understood is that the sound of a cable is very dependent of the connected components. There is no such thing as the absolute best cable for any type of connection.
In a Goldmund system where the speed of the signal is mandatory and kept very high throughout, coaxial is the only reasonable solution. It is not only the best solution for digital cables, or for interconnect, but is also the best solution for speaker cables.
In addition to the speed that coaxial may help to maintain, the perfect shielding that the best ones may provide is mandatory to avoid oscillations.

Nordost is another cable manufacturer that is concerned about the speed of the cable. Early MIT and Monster cables used multiple bundles of different gauges also due to signal time. Audioquest used to state that 20 gauge solid core was the perfect size for the frequencies to travel at the same speed. Their speaker cables use multiple individually insulated solid core wires in their cables.

Interesting that I have never tried a coaxial cable. Wireworld and Crystal Cable are coax cables. Analysis Plus may also be considered since they have a center braid and an outer braid both conducting the signal.

I agree that there is no perfect cable for every application. Each designer focuses on what is important to them. Goertz cables are designed to match the loudspeakers impedance with the amp and reduce the EMF from travelling back from the speaker to the amp. Cables with networks can also be designed to block EMF from returning to the amp.

[3db]

I just found this interesting info from an MFG posted on another HE site. Note the last paragraph

"some general recommendations from the goldmund/Job people for cabling, electrical issues, etc...

The Goldmund Ultra-fast Electronics Idiosyncrasies
In order to reproduce the transients and the dynamics in music with a lifelike quality, the Goldmund electronics uses extremely wide bandwidth in their circuitry, with literally zero phase error and time error. This is the main difference in the way they are designed.
However, this extreme bandwidth in the circuitry is making the Goldmund electronics more susceptible to be affected by incorrect installation and cabling. When proper care is not applied to the cabling, the grounding and the AC power connection of a Goldmund system, severe RF problems may be created, with danger for the speakers and power amplifiers, as well as serious sonic degradation.
The following information must be reviewed carefully and applied properly for the system to be immune of these problems.
The best sounding grounding schemes
The most difficult and important connection in a top quality system is the ground connection.
If not properly made, hum, distortion and instability may be induced. As for balanced connection, that Goldmund strongly disapprove, a bad grounding connection may literally ruin the lifelike dynamics that any really up-to-date system may reproduce.
The schematics recommended by Goldmund is known as the "Star System" as used in top measurement laboratories working on small signal levels.
In a Star System, only one central component (usually the preamplifier or multi-channel processor) is connected to the building ground (through the AC line connection or directly to an earthing post), and all other components are not.The ground connection is then properly made by the signal ground and if good quality coaxial is used for interconnecting the components (as the Goldmund interconnects and Lineal cables), the full system is totally shielded. For a top Goldmund system, the use of such high quality coaxial cable is mandatory for sound quality, perfect shielding and speed of transfer.
By simply lifting the AC wire ground connection of all other components, the star system is immediately built. However, for safety reasons as well as local regulation application, it is even better to link each component to the central unit by an additional very thick ground wire, connected to the yellow earth binding post of the components. On the central unit (preamplifier, ...), the black (signal ground) and yellow (earth) post may then be linkedIf the AC line ground is of the highest quality, the grounding system will improve sound and noise floor. If not, a real building earthing post must be used to connect the yellow post and the AC line ground must be lifted from the AC line too. Be careful that this type of installation must be made and controlled by a qualified technician to provide the perfect safety and quality.
The AC line polarity
From country to country, and even building to building, the AC line polarity may vary. The effect on sound of a wrong AC polarity is not common knowledge and this specific problem is usually neglected.
On a fast system like a full Goldmund system, the sonic effect of reversing the polarity of the electronic components may be far from negligible.
To properly adjust the polarity of each components, there are two different methods : the experimental approach, and the scientific approach.
To detect the proper polarity using the experiemental approach, the full system must be compared in sound quality with successively each component reversed. Usually, the sound is immediately more dynamic and open when the polarity is correct. To test a full system is a tedious and very long process, each component acting with the others and the number of combination being very high. Be patient. In a top sounding system, the result may be dramatic.
If you prefer to use the scientific approach, read our AC Polarity Measurement page. You need to have a very good high impedance AC voltmeter with high sensitibility. In some areas, small accessories may be acuired to help you detect by a simple measurement which polarity is the best. But we will recommend the full approach
To invert each component's polarity, a quite practical solution is provided by the Goldmund AC-Curator which has a separate polarity switch for each low-level output makes the choice very easy, even if the near-perfect isolation provided makes it far less critical. For components directly connected to a wall plug, the use of a special adapter may be necessary.
The Cabling problems
Choice of cables in an audio system has been very much pushed as a way to improve any system in the press during the last decades. No need to come back on the fact that cables sound different. But what seems less understood is that the sound of a cable is very dependent of the connected components. There is no such thing as the absolute best cable for any type of connection.
In a Goldmund system where the speed of the signal is mandatory and kept very high throughout, coaxial is the only reasonable solution. It is not only the best solution for digital cables, or for interconnect, but is also the best solution for speaker cables.
In addition to the speed that coaxial may help to maintain, the perfect shielding that the best ones may provide is mandatory to avoid oscillations.
But there are also some additional tricks.
To insure a perfect stability in a system, the input cables (interconnects) of an amplifier must absolutely be kept apart from the output cables (speaker cables). Otherwise the high frequency antenna created by the shielding ground of the speaker cable may, if the system is imperfectly earthed, radiate to the ground of the input cable and create a high frequency loop, inducing oscillation of the power amplifier. Run the cables separate or cross them at right angles and your system will be totally immune to this effect.
More, when you use long interconnects to a stereo or multi-channel power amplifier, run them close together, to avoid creating ground loop which will induce hum or buzz if you are in a bad RF area.
And finally, when the choice exist, and you are using Goldmund interconnects and Speaker cables, choose to run longer Speaker cables and shorter interconnects rather than the opposite. Loss of quality is faster in long interconnects than in long Goldmund Speaker cables because the carried impedance is higher.

The problem with the above is that comes from a company who has a horse in the race. Its an advertising glossy with pseudo science to fool the laymen into believing there is actual science behind the article. I wouldnt be surprised if they "goldmund" took course in advertisement from Bose, another market machine that tosses pseudo science words around in fooling the laymen that there is real science behind this. I would put as much value in this glossy as I would a politician trying to get my vote.

[3db]

Have any of you read the article about sight bias and the influence of other senses on our hearing? I'm with Mr Terrible on this one. Not one ounce of proof has been given by any of you yeahsayers, not one. Its sad that so much snake oil still resides in the world of audio.

[JohnMichael]

Have any of you read the article about sight bias and the influence of other senses on our hearing? I'm with Mr Terrible on this one. Not one ounce of proof has been given by any of you yeahsayers, not one. Its sad that so much snake oil still resides in the world of audio.

What we hear is proof enough for us. I doubt if anyone is interested in proving anything to you. We are just sharing our experiences. Most of what you post matters little to those who disagree.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

What we hear is proof enough for us. I doubt if anyone is interested in proving anything to you. We are just sharing our experiences. Most of what you post matters little to those who disagree.

This is a perfect example of the defensive wall going up. Once again, my point is made.

[3db]

What we hear is proof enough for us. I doubt if anyone is interested in proving anything to you. We are just sharing our experiences. Most of what you post matters little to those who disagree.

Unfortunately what you say is true. The close minded attitude towards science and the uber Xmen hearing abilities that can magically isolate the other senses from influencing what one hears exhibited by Audiophools is a joke at best. But hey, whom I am to tell you to stop buying tanker trucks full of water for your water front property.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Have any of you read the article about sight bias and the influence of other senses on our hearing? I'm with Mr Terrible on this one. Not one ounce of proof has been given by any of you yeahsayers, not one. Its sad that so much snake oil still resides in the world of audio.

Of course they didn't. Who wants to see their beliefs blown to bits.

This is why J Gordon Holt stated that the high end market has deceived its own clientele, and why it is in decline.

[Hyfi]

Have any of you read the article about sight bias and the influence of other senses on our hearing? I'm with Mr Terrible on this one. Not one ounce of proof has been given by any of you yeahsayers, not one. Its sad that so much snake oil still resides in the world of audio.

That said, I have never spent more than $75 on a pair of ICs and I think my 10' Tara Labs Prism Bi-Wire cables bought new were under $150.

I do own "snake oil cables" but paid next to nothing for them. (Synergistic Research)

And the Naysayers have rarely specified the brand and model cables we all should be using. Specifically the ones they use and exactly why.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

And the Naysayers have rarely specified the brand and model cables we all should be using. Specifically the ones they use and exactly why.

I guess we naysayers should tell you when to go to the restroom, when to clean your face, when to wash your hands, and what umbrella to choose when it rains. Or how about choose your house, your kids, your wife, or any other thing that is personal. Its not our job.

I don't own your equipment, your ears, or your room - and I don't control your spending habits or ask why you spent your money in the first place. That is your own decision, much like it is your own decision not to educate yourself on the function of IC's, room acoustics, or any other scientific side of audio reproduction.

Some things you must do on your own.