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Thread: Audiophiles beware, the other senses are more connected than you think.

  1. #101
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    The Cabling problems
    Choice of cables in an audio system has been very much pushed as a way to improve any system in the press during the last decades. No need to come back on the fact that cables sound different. But what seems less understood is that the sound of a cable is very dependent of the connected components. There is no such thing as the absolute best cable for any type of connection.
    In a Goldmund system where the speed of the signal is mandatory and kept very high throughout, coaxial is the only reasonable solution. It is not only the best solution for digital cables, or for interconnect, but is also the best solution for speaker cables.
    In addition to the speed that coaxial may help to maintain, the perfect shielding that the best ones may provide is mandatory to avoid oscillations.

    Nordost is another cable manufacturer that is concerned about the speed of the cable. Early MIT and Monster cables used multiple bundles of different gauges also due to signal time. Audioquest used to state that 20 gauge solid core was the perfect size for the frequencies to travel at the same speed. Their speaker cables use multiple individually insulated solid core wires in their cables.

    Interesting that I have never tried a coaxial cable. Wireworld and Crystal Cable are coax cables. Analysis Plus may also be considered since they have a center braid and an outer braid both conducting the signal.

    I agree that there is no perfect cable for every application. Each designer focuses on what is important to them. Goertz cables are designed to match the loudspeakers impedance with the amp and reduce the EMF from travelling back from the speaker to the amp. Cables with networks can also be designed to block EMF from returning to the amp.
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  2. #102
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackraven View Post
    You are so off base here and are making suppositions with out even being present to hear the differences.
    Unlike you, I would not just want to HEAR the differences you speak about, but I would want to measure it. It would be far easier to tell you to your face that you are hearing things if I was. Here is the problem with your rather silly assessment of your listening experience.

    1. You did not normalize the volume between songs, or between the different pieces of software you listen to. There is no way you can with a $1300 dollar system and no measuring equipment.

    2. No controls on the acoustics of the listening area, and from what you described people moving about the room listening to the source. Have EVER heard of ROOM ACOUSTICS?

    3. If you ignorantly used the terms "bright" and "warm" then you are using the wrong terms to describe cables. Cables are "resolution" and more "resolution" not bright or warm. If they are bright, measurements would show a tipped up treble balance, and that would NOT be a properly functioning cable. If it is warm, that would mean a tipped up mid-bass and lower midrange frequency response. That would also be a improperly functioning cable. IF you have had ANY experience at measure cables you would understand that even some of the most poorly made cables don't have frequency variances(more than 3db) that support that description. Poorly made cables will lack the resolution of a quality cable, and if it is not properly shielded is opening to all kinds of signal contamination that will affect the amount of resolution hear. The worst that happens to the frequency response is it is slightly rolled off at the frequency EXTREMES, not where our hearing is the most sensitive. If what you are hearing is warm and bright, then that is coming from the source, not the wire. IC are to pass the electrical signal from one component to another, not shape the frequency response of the electrical signal passing through it.

    I guess we are not able to tell the differece between speakers, preamps and amps.
    Not any of these are passive devices. You are going to have a far easier time hearing differences between these than through a passive piece of wire. You will have a much easier time hearing differences between speakers than you would amps and preamps.

    I said the difference was night and day, not I think we can hear a difference.
    If it was night and day difference, then one of the cables was not properly designed. There are no night and day differences between two well designed cables. It all about nuance and subtlety at that point.

    Its easy to be an arm chair quarterback from your perspective.
    It is even easier to listen to your own BS in an echo chamber.

    I guess we were imagining listening fatigue and brightness. I was also imagining the decrease in sibilant's with the AQ cable vs the BJC.
    Fatigue and brightness could have come from the difference in volume that you listened to the recording. Since you didn't normalize(or even try to) the volume between songs or software, you don't know if it was in the source, or coming from anywhere in the chain. Fatigue and brightness are not synonymous with each other. Fatigue can come from listening too loud for too long a period without the audio being bright at all. Fatigue can come from listening actively for too long(that why we have breaks when doing DBT's).

    The decrease in sibilants could mean you didn't listen to one cable as loud as you listened to the other. Sibilance comes from the source, not from the cable. If you turned up the audio, the sibilance is easier to hear. Turn down the volume, and the sibilance becomes more difficult to hear. This is why you MUST normalize your sources, so the volume is the same. 100% of the time the sibilance comes from the source, not the wire. Sibilance come from the interaction between the voice and the microphone, not from the IC. Wires don't make up what is not there in the first place.
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  3. #103
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael View Post
    Do you ever wonder why the naysayers seem so defensive of their point of view.
    You have this profoundly twisted. It is the yeasayers that are so defensive, because naysayers are asking them for proof, and they are unable to produce it. The defensive walls go up with the words "I know what I heard".

    It becomes quite tedious when those of us that can hear differences would like to discuss cables.
    Since we know people can imagine things, I am just asking for some proof that collaborates your hearing to a measurement. That is all.

    Oh and then Floyd is brought into the argument. Is he the only one who has written a book or do we not agree with others who might disagree.
    His book is based on his white papers submitted to AES for peer review. It passed peer review(in other words he had proof), and most folks who understand the science of audio reproduction agree with him. So what you can do is submit a white paper to AES or any audio society that disproves anything that he states in his book, and people will stop bringing proven facts to the argument(as opposed to myths and unproven facts).

    I am with you that no other person can tell me I did not hear what I have heard. Oh and the more paragraphs they type the less I read.
    Up goes the defensive wall. Thanks for making my point.

    I guess the reason some people have so little audio education is because they shut their minds down because it is just easier to do that than to actually learn. I am not addressing this to anyone in particular, so there is no need for the censors to pull out their scissors.
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  4. #104
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Sir T thanks for your analysis of me. Mine of you is not as favorable.
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  5. #105
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    Since in my recent comparison I used BJC Belden 1505F cables, (which I made clear at the time), I can't dispute your LC-1 findings.

    In the broader debate, I too have heard differences between cables, tubes, and opamps. I suggest that the differences are relatively small vs. other components. Also I suggest that if you listen in sequence to two samples that happen to be very similar to each other you might hear no discernible difference, BUT if you listen sequentially to two samples that happen to be relatively different, then the difference can be quite obvious.
    In order to do this, you need to make sure any volume biases don't exist, or the louder source will always be perceived as better. This is why we had the loudness war of the 90's. The samples must be level matched, or the louder has the advantage.

    OTOH, I can't refute those who say the blind testing would prove that my personal listening judgements are wrong. To me it is clear that SOME audiophiles at least SOME of the time hear things that are their imagination, or at least attributable to things other than the components in question. However in any given instance they CAN'T PROVE that I'm not hearing real differences with out conducting rigorous blind testing any more than I can prove that I am hearing them.
    The object of the test is not to tell you what you can or can't hear. The test is designed to remove biases(and pre-formed biases) that prove you truly are hearing what you are hearing.

    This reminds me so much of the Dolby Digital versus DTS war. Everyone claimed Dts sounded "night and day" better than DD, but for all the wrong reasons. DD dialog normalization was lowering the volume based on the encoded value on the disc(usually 3-4db based on Dolby encoder default), and Dts did not do this. So what folks really heard was the difference in the encoding volume rather than details in the soundtrack itself. When you match the volume of the soundtracks encoded on the disc(which is pretty difficult in somebody house), those supposed "night and day" differences disappeared, and what comes out is much more subtle and nuanced. Dts was just better at encoding small details that DD would discard to reduce the bitrate.

    The only "night and day" differences you will hear in audio is the difference between a $200 boom box, and a $200,000 audio system. Aside from that, the only "night and day" occurs over 24 hours of our days.
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  6. #106
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael View Post
    Sir T thanks for your analysis of me. Mine of you is not as favorable.
    Who cares? I don't.......you should know this by now.
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  7. #107
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    When I choose a component, speaker or cable I select which is the most musical to my ears. I do not select based on anyone's opinion. I do not try to tell anyone they should buy what I chose. I am not going to test anything other than does it bring me closer to the music. I find talk of testing a bore. When I enjoy a meal or a wine there is no testing involved. When I buy art I am only concerned with how it effects me. Yes my world is very subjective and I make decisions based on my enjoyment. I do not need a test to tell me what I am experiencing. I enjoy sharing my experiences with my stereo as much as I do with friends when we share food or wine. Or when we attend a gallery opening or a museum. The best things in life are subjective.
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  8. #108
    3db
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    I just found this interesting info from an MFG posted on another HE site. Note the last paragraph

    "some general recommendations from the goldmund/Job people for cabling, electrical issues, etc...

    The Goldmund Ultra-fast Electronics Idiosyncrasies
    In order to reproduce the transients and the dynamics in music with a lifelike quality, the Goldmund electronics uses extremely wide bandwidth in their circuitry, with literally zero phase error and time error. This is the main difference in the way they are designed.
    However, this extreme bandwidth in the circuitry is making the Goldmund electronics more susceptible to be affected by incorrect installation and cabling. When proper care is not applied to the cabling, the grounding and the AC power connection of a Goldmund system, severe RF problems may be created, with danger for the speakers and power amplifiers, as well as serious sonic degradation.
    The following information must be reviewed carefully and applied properly for the system to be immune of these problems.
    The best sounding grounding schemes
    The most difficult and important connection in a top quality system is the ground connection.
    If not properly made, hum, distortion and instability may be induced. As for balanced connection, that Goldmund strongly disapprove, a bad grounding connection may literally ruin the lifelike dynamics that any really up-to-date system may reproduce.
    The schematics recommended by Goldmund is known as the "Star System" as used in top measurement laboratories working on small signal levels.
    In a Star System, only one central component (usually the preamplifier or multi-channel processor) is connected to the building ground (through the AC line connection or directly to an earthing post), and all other components are not.The ground connection is then properly made by the signal ground and if good quality coaxial is used for interconnecting the components (as the Goldmund interconnects and Lineal cables), the full system is totally shielded. For a top Goldmund system, the use of such high quality coaxial cable is mandatory for sound quality, perfect shielding and speed of transfer.
    By simply lifting the AC wire ground connection of all other components, the star system is immediately built. However, for safety reasons as well as local regulation application, it is even better to link each component to the central unit by an additional very thick ground wire, connected to the yellow earth binding post of the components. On the central unit (preamplifier, ...), the black (signal ground) and yellow (earth) post may then be linkedIf the AC line ground is of the highest quality, the grounding system will improve sound and noise floor. If not, a real building earthing post must be used to connect the yellow post and the AC line ground must be lifted from the AC line too. Be careful that this type of installation must be made and controlled by a qualified technician to provide the perfect safety and quality.
    The AC line polarity
    From country to country, and even building to building, the AC line polarity may vary. The effect on sound of a wrong AC polarity is not common knowledge and this specific problem is usually neglected.
    On a fast system like a full Goldmund system, the sonic effect of reversing the polarity of the electronic components may be far from negligible.
    To properly adjust the polarity of each components, there are two different methods : the experimental approach, and the scientific approach.
    To detect the proper polarity using the experiemental approach, the full system must be compared in sound quality with successively each component reversed. Usually, the sound is immediately more dynamic and open when the polarity is correct. To test a full system is a tedious and very long process, each component acting with the others and the number of combination being very high. Be patient. In a top sounding system, the result may be dramatic.
    If you prefer to use the scientific approach, read our AC Polarity Measurement page. You need to have a very good high impedance AC voltmeter with high sensitibility. In some areas, small accessories may be acuired to help you detect by a simple measurement which polarity is the best. But we will recommend the full approach
    To invert each component's polarity, a quite practical solution is provided by the Goldmund AC-Curator which has a separate polarity switch for each low-level output makes the choice very easy, even if the near-perfect isolation provided makes it far less critical. For components directly connected to a wall plug, the use of a special adapter may be necessary.
    The Cabling problems
    Choice of cables in an audio system has been very much pushed as a way to improve any system in the press during the last decades. No need to come back on the fact that cables sound different. But what seems less understood is that the sound of a cable is very dependent of the connected components. There is no such thing as the absolute best cable for any type of connection.
    In a Goldmund system where the speed of the signal is mandatory and kept very high throughout, coaxial is the only reasonable solution. It is not only the best solution for digital cables, or for interconnect, but is also the best solution for speaker cables.
    In addition to the speed that coaxial may help to maintain, the perfect shielding that the best ones may provide is mandatory to avoid oscillations.
    But there are also some additional tricks.
    To insure a perfect stability in a system, the input cables (interconnects) of an amplifier must absolutely be kept apart from the output cables (speaker cables). Otherwise the high frequency antenna created by the shielding ground of the speaker cable may, if the system is imperfectly earthed, radiate to the ground of the input cable and create a high frequency loop, inducing oscillation of the power amplifier. Run the cables separate or cross them at right angles and your system will be totally immune to this effect.
    More, when you use long interconnects to a stereo or multi-channel power amplifier, run them close together, to avoid creating ground loop which will induce hum or buzz if you are in a bad RF area.
    And finally, when the choice exist, and you are using Goldmund interconnects and Speaker cables, choose to run longer Speaker cables and shorter interconnects rather than the opposite. Loss of quality is faster in long interconnects than in long Goldmund Speaker cables because the carried impedance is higher.
    The problem with the above is that comes from a company who has a horse in the race. Its an advertising glossy with pseudo science to fool the laymen into believing there is actual science behind the article. I wouldnt be surprised if they "goldmund" took course in advertisement from Bose, another market machine that tosses pseudo science words around in fooling the laymen that there is real science behind this. I would put as much value in this glossy as I would a politician trying to get my vote.

  9. #109
    3db
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    Have any of you read the article about sight bias and the influence of other senses on our hearing? I'm with Mr Terrible on this one. Not one ounce of proof has been given by any of you yeahsayers, not one. Its sad that so much snake oil still resides in the world of audio.

  10. #110
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3db View Post
    Have any of you read the article about sight bias and the influence of other senses on our hearing? I'm with Mr Terrible on this one. Not one ounce of proof has been given by any of you yeahsayers, not one. Its sad that so much snake oil still resides in the world of audio.

    What we hear is proof enough for us. I doubt if anyone is interested in proving anything to you. We are just sharing our experiences. Most of what you post matters little to those who disagree.
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  11. #111
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael View Post
    What we hear is proof enough for us. I doubt if anyone is interested in proving anything to you. We are just sharing our experiences. Most of what you post matters little to those who disagree.
    This is a perfect example of the defensive wall going up. Once again, my point is made.
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  12. #112
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    This is a perfect example of the defensive wall going up. Once again, my point is made.

    You make no point but just repeat the same tired argument.
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  13. #113
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Choice of cables in an audio system has been very much pushed as a way to improve any system in the press during the last decades. No need to come back on the fact that cables sound different. But what seems less understood is that the sound of a cable is very dependent of the connected components. There is no such thing as the absolute best cable for any type of connection.
    I am going to point out the shallowness of how some interpret this comment in red. This company sells components that are quite frankly dressed up in couture, but are average in the guts.

    What they are actually saying does not support the yeasayers perspective at all. They are saying the the components themselves define how the cable will sound in the end. If the component itself is designed for euphoric sound, the cable will transmit that. If the the component is is well designed with a neutral sound character(if neutral has a sound character), then the wire will transmit a no character at all - much like the component itself.

    The party that posted this wanted to believe this comment in red supported their position. But in fact, careful scrutiny shows it does not. This manufacturer is pointing their efforts towards over priced components rather than over priced and much hyped wire.
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  14. #114
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael View Post
    You make no point but just repeat the same tired argument.
    Careful scrutiny would make you guilty of this as well.
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  15. #115
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3db View Post
    Have any of you read the article about sight bias and the influence of other senses on our hearing? I'm with Mr Terrible on this one. Not one ounce of proof has been given by any of you yeahsayers, not one. Its sad that so much snake oil still resides in the world of audio.
    Of course they didn't. Who wants to see their beliefs blown to bits.

    This is why J Gordon Holt stated that the high end market has deceived its own clientele, and why it is in decline.
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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3db View Post
    Have any of you read the article about sight bias and the influence of other senses on our hearing? I'm with Mr Terrible on this one. Not one ounce of proof has been given by any of you yeahsayers, not one. Its sad that so much snake oil still resides in the world of audio.
    That said, I have never spent more than $75 on a pair of ICs and I think my 10' Tara Labs Prism Bi-Wire cables bought new were under $150.

    I do own "snake oil cables" but paid next to nothing for them. (Synergistic Research)

    And the Naysayers have rarely specified the brand and model cables we all should be using. Specifically the ones they use and exactly why.

  17. #117
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    And the Naysayers have rarely specified the brand and model cables we all should be using. Specifically the ones they use and exactly why.
    I guess we naysayers should tell you when to go to the restroom, when to clean your face, when to wash your hands, and what umbrella to choose when it rains. Or how about choose your house, your kids, your wife, or any other thing that is personal. Its not our job.

    I don't own your equipment, your ears, or your room - and I don't control your spending habits or ask why you spent your money in the first place. That is your own decision, much like it is your own decision not to educate yourself on the function of IC's, room acoustics, or any other scientific side of audio reproduction.

    Some things you must do on your own.
    Sir Terrence

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  18. #118
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    Unlike you, I would not just want to HEAR the differences you speak about, but I would want to measure it. It would be far easier to tell you to your face that you are hearing things if I was. Here is the problem with your rather silly assessment of your listening experience.

    1. You did not normalize the volume between songs, or between the different pieces of software you listen to. There is no way you can with a $1300 dollar system and no measuring equipment.

    2. No controls on the acoustics of the listening area, and from what you described people moving about the room listening to the source. Have EVER heard of ROOM ACOUSTICS?

    3. If you ignorantly used the terms "bright" and "warm" then you are using the wrong terms to describe cables. Cables are "resolution" and more "resolution" not bright or warm. If they are bright, measurements would show a tipped up treble balance, and that would NOT be a properly functioning cable. If it is warm, that would mean a tipped up mid-bass and lower midrange frequency response. That would also be a improperly functioning cable. IF you have had ANY experience at measure cables you would understand that even some of the most poorly made cables don't have frequency variances(more than 3db) that support that description. Poorly made cables will lack the resolution of a quality cable, and if it is not properly shielded is opening to all kinds of signal contamination that will affect the amount of resolution hear. The worst that happens to the frequency response is it is slightly rolled off at the frequency EXTREMES, not where our hearing is the most sensitive. If what you are hearing is warm and bright, then that is coming from the source, not the wire. IC are to pass the electrical signal from one component to another, not shape the frequency response of the electrical signal passing through it.



    Not any of these are passive devices. You are going to have a far easier time hearing differences between these than through a passive piece of wire. You will have a much easier time hearing differences between speakers than you would amps and preamps.



    If it was night and day difference, then one of the cables was not properly designed. There are no night and day differences between two well designed cables. It all about nuance and subtlety at that point.



    It is even easier to listen to your own BS in an echo chamber.



    Fatigue and brightness could have come from the difference in volume that you listened to the recording. Since you didn't normalize(or even try to) the volume between songs or software, you don't know if it was in the source, or coming from anywhere in the chain. Fatigue and brightness are not synonymous with each other. Fatigue can come from listening too loud for too long a period without the audio being bright at all. Fatigue can come from listening actively for too long(that why we have breaks when doing DBT's).

    The decrease in sibilants could mean you didn't listen to one cable as loud as you listened to the other. Sibilance comes from the source, not from the cable. If you turned up the audio, the sibilance is easier to hear. Turn down the volume, and the sibilance becomes more difficult to hear. This is why you MUST normalize your sources, so the volume is the same. 100% of the time the sibilance comes from the source, not the wire. Sibilance come from the interaction between the voice and the microphone, not from the IC. Wires don't make up what is not there in the first place.
    Boy you sure have answers for everything and you know all this how? You spout BS with the best of them. How do you know that there would be no differences between 2 well designed cables. Have you tested every cable?

    About the sibilance, I agree it is my source but some cables cut down on it. The volumes remain the same. But I guess you are implying that in some way the IC's are attenuating the volume.

    Concerning fatigue, you are applying your own bias to what causes listener fatigue for you. For me it is brightness and too much high frequency. Here you are assuming that I am blasting my ears with loud music. I test my gear a normal listening levels and at low volumes.



    Please show me the data to back up your claims and I will shut the fk up!

    When you give me a load of BS to try and explain the night and day difference that we heard you lose all credibility! I would be more apt to side with you if the differences were subtle. I was a naysayer about cable differences when I first joined the forum. But after experimenting with cables I have changed my mind after hearing differences for myself.

    I guess you are one of the people who believe that we never landed on the moon!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    I guess we naysayers should tell you when to go to the restroom, when to clean your face, when to wash your hands, and what umbrella to choose when it rains. Or how about choose your house, your kids, your wife, or any other thing that is personal. Its not our job.

    I don't own your equipment, your ears, or your room - and I don't control your spending habits or ask why you spent your money in the first place. That is your own decision, much like it is your own decision not to educate yourself on the function of IC's, room acoustics, or any other scientific side of audio reproduction.

    Some things you must do on your own.
    If the gear doesn't matter, because any cable works perfectly with any gear, what does it matter if you have my gear?
    If there is no difference, why would you need my ears? You would not need my ears to tell me what cable you use which you deem the best for any application, because there is no difference.
    You don't need my money to tell me what you think the best cable to use in any system is, including your own.

    I have read plenty on the suggested topics and since I can not further treat my current rooms, I have to work with what I have.

    So if a cable, that you claim is defective without hearing it, helps a specific set of components sound better to me and I can not treat my room further, who are you to tell me it's wrong, and what are you trying to save me from?
    blackraven likes this.

  20. #120
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    LOL, looks like some one else is throwing up a wall.

    There is plenty of info about what makes sound differences in cables if one would look and transporting that to this conversation would be pointless as no matter what it was it would be dismissed by your wall. As manufacturers of cables have progressed and gained more experience in constructing the cables there's probably more difference now than ever. In fact, Cardas particularly comes to mind as being one who actually has different lines that of different character. Since not all cables have the same synergy they are trying to meet as many needs as possible, grabbing as much market as possible

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    I guess we naysayers should tell you when to go to the restroom, when to clean your face, when to wash your hands, and what umbrella to choose when it rains. Or how about choose your house, your kids, your wife, or any other thing that is personal. Its not our job.

    I don't own your equipment, your ears, or your room - and I don't control your spending habits or ask why you spent your money in the first place. That is your own decision, much like it is your own decision not to educate yourself on the function of IC's, room acoustics, or any other scientific side of audio reproduction.

    Some things you must do on your own.
    Hyfi, JohnMichael and blackraven like this.
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  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody View Post
    LOL, looks like some one else is throwing up a wall.

    There is plenty of info about what makes sound differences in cables if one would look and transporting that to this conversation would be pointless as no matter what it was it would be dismissed by your wall. As manufacturers of cables have progressed and gained more experience in constructing the cables there's probably more difference now than ever. In fact, Cardas particularly comes to mind as being one who actually has different lines that of different character. Since not all cables have the same synergy they are trying to meet as many needs as possible, grabbing as much market as possible
    Please show us the evidence. We would be happy to read it. However, proof is not manufacturer's glossy advertisement. If it were, Bose would be reign surpreme. Proof is independent labs testing the cables with no interest in the outcome. Show me this and then we'll talk.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael View Post
    What we hear is proof enough for us. I doubt if anyone is interested in proving anything to you. We are just sharing our experiences. Most of what you post matters little to those who disagree.
    Unfortunately what you say is true. The close minded attitude towards science and the uber Xmen hearing abilities that can magically isolate the other senses from influencing what one hears exhibited by Audiophools is a joke at best. But hey, whom I am to tell you to stop buying tanker trucks full of water for your water front property.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3db View Post
    But hey, whom I am to tell you to stop buying tanker trucks full of water for your water front property.
    Not all water is the right water for every application. Salt Water mainly found near waterfront properties is not really the best water to use when watering plants and lawns.

    But until you tell us what cables you use, and think everyone should use so we can try them for ourselves, we can do this all day, all month, all year.....

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3db View Post
    Unfortunately what you say is true. The close minded attitude towards science and the uber Xmen hearing abilities that can magically isolate the other senses from influencing what one hears exhibited by Audiophools is a joke at best. But hey, whom I am to tell you to stop buying tanker trucks full of water for your water front property.

    In an earlier post someone asked you naysayers what cables you use. Still no answers but more insults. As those of us who are open to science we also know that science is progressing but yet can not answer all of our questions. I am open to the fact that there are not yet enough measures to quantify a cable like there are not enough to fully quantify a loudspeaker's sound quality.

    So what cables are you using? What have you found that works in all systems? Oh and please tell us the cables you have tried that have helped you reach your opinions.
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  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    Not all water is the right water for every application. Salt Water mainly found near waterfront properties is not really the best water to use when watering plants and lawns.

    But until you tell us what cables you use, and think everyone should use so we can try them for ourselves, we can do this all day, all month, all year.....
    Use any cables you want that make your system "look" good.

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