Audiophiles...

[topspeed]

Let's not confuse "audiophiles" with "hi-end." Unless, that is, we believe that you cannot be one without the other? Can you be an audiophile and have a Kenwood receiver pushing Technics speakers? Or, as some would believe, must you have speaker cable that requires an equity line to purchase?

The rap on audiophiles I think comes from the questionable return on investment for the gear. When there is very little, if any, measureable advantages from price point to price point, it's not hard to ponder the sanity of someone that becomes giddy when installing Valhalla wire into their system. By comparison, cars are a horrible analogy if only because their performance is quantifiable. It's either faster or it isn't. It either corners better, brakes shorter, gets better mileage, or circles the Norschliefe faster...or it doesn't. There are no "golden ears." No grey area about personal preference. You know what you are paying for because it's right there on the stop watch and the differences are rarely subtle. You can't do this with audio, and therein lies the rub.

[O'Shag]

I think some of you are missing the point. Its got nothing to do with wanting an expensive car. When we buy something, is it not reasonable that we operate with some form of true value process ie the cost to build something vs the cost to buy that something? If you do not operate this way then you are likely not making sound decisions and your behaviour might be described by some (and rightly so) as an uncontrollable obsession or addiction.

There is not one speaker or component that is even one one-hundreth as complex and difficult to manufacture as any of the cars I mentioned. It matters not that you care not for a car (although I'm a petrol head too). and in the context of this conversation, it matters not the performance characteristics of the car. The fact is, that any car, including the AMC Gremlin, is far more expensive and difficult to manufacture, spin it how you will, and that is the point - value. This is concept that goes out the window with many audiophiles. I know, I know - well there is the value of the joy of listening, but lets get real, there has to be a realworld assessment of value also. Otherwise, one's significant other would be completely justified in sueing for divorce.

My problem is not with people spending to their hearts content, I myself ( in my absurdity) have a large sum 'invested' in Audio/HT gear. My problem is with the mind-job that is being continually perpetuated among the audiophile cognescenti. Its fine to review and discuss the merits of absurdly priced exotica, but to imply that the main road to audio nirvana is really only achieved spending obscene amounts of money - that I cannot stand. The rich-person's price tag, beautiful casework, shiney-shinies etc, as beautiful or weirdly fascinating as they be, have little to do with the sonic outcome of a component.

Also, any sane individual can see that the audiophile hobby is simply infested with balogney.

My respect might be re-gained somewhat, if the press and or those who we rely on to guide us would clearly state that the NORMAL, and ADVISABLE path to sonic nirvana is the middle road (mind you not most reviewer's so-called middle road) , and that even if you have lots of lolly to spend on gear, you are unlikely to see any improvement in sound. What I know from experience, is that a brilliant sounding system that will beat the pants of most of these ultra expensive systems can be put together with prudence for one tenth the price.

[bobsticks]

The fact is, that any car, including the AMC Gremlin, is far more expensive and difficult to manufacture, spin it how you will, and that is the point - value. This is concept that goes out the window with many audiophiles. I know, I know - well there is the value of the joy of listening, but lets get real, there has to be a realworld assessment of value also. Otherwise, ones significant other would be completely justified in sueing for divorce.

Well said...soup for you tonight.

Good to see you posting Shaggy...

[audio amateur]

By comparison, cars are a horrible analogy if only because their performance is quantifiable. It's either faster or it isn't. It either corners better, brakes shorter, gets better mileage, or circles the Norschliefe faster...or it doesn't. There are no "golden ears." No grey area about personal preference. You know what you are paying for because it's right there on the stop watch and the differences are rarely subtle. You can't do this with audio, and therein lies the rub.

Thank you, thank you, thank you...

Comparing audiophiles to petrolheads simply does not mean anything. If I had the cash, I'd be running a car (I have never owned one) on the track day in day out. Well i'd like to think so anyway. In that world, you actually get good marginal returns as you go up the price scale, and these are clearly quantitative. I feel that in the audio world, you can get good performance for a fraction of the price you would pay for ultra $$ speakers. Just what Shag was saying.