36Hz to 20kHz and 38Hz to 20kHz

[skeptic]

The generally accepted meaning today of this specification for a loudspeaker system is the frequency at which the speaker's acousitcal output in the bass is reduced by 3db (half the power output) at low frequencies relative to a 1 khz (midrange) frequency given the same level of electrical power input. This implies how low a freqeuncy the speaker will usefully reproduce. Unfortunately, it often implies more than it really means. These measurements are taken using a calibrated microphone, often at low power levels in a specially built echoless room called an anechoic chamber. In a real room, the results will vary all over the place so it is only a starting figure of merit for comparison but cannot be taken to the bank as a definitive measure of a speaker's bass performance.

Other pertinent factors they usually don't tell you is how much distortion there will be, how fast the response falls off below that frequency, and how loud the bass driver called the woofer will play before severe distortion occurs. Room acoustics and speaker placement also play a major role in bass performance. Ironically, smaller rooms such as those most common in homes don't provide the low frequency acoustical bass reinforcement larger rooms do where live music is commonly performed. This is strictly due it their relatively small dimensions.

Bass performance is VERY VERY important in music. It is what gives drums their thwack and impact. It is what gives a symphony orchestra its sense of power. It is critical to any music written for pipe organ. It is necessary for accurate musical timbre of pianos, cellos, double basses, tubas, and even bassoons. All electronically synthesized music uses very low tones and so does pop music using an electric bass. Sound systems which cannot accurately reproduce very low tones sound thin, less powerful, and have less impact than those that do. These low tones and drum beats are often used in music to convey rhythm, one of the critical elements of music. The loss of the impact of rhythm is no more missed anywhere than in the enjoyment of jazz music. Listening to recordings of jazz without the aspect deep bass brings to it is disappointing and boring compared to live performances.

For technical reasons, it was very difficult to record these deep tones on vinyl phonograph records and many turntables produced so much rumble and /or were so sensitive to acoustic feedback that systems capable of producing very deep bass created new problems even when those tones were not present. However, cds changed all of that and cds are easily capable of recording and reproducing tones to the lowest limit of human hearing, usually considered to be 20 hz and well below where vibrations are felt rather than heard.

Unfortunately, reproducing accurate very deep bass is one of the most expensive aspects of sound reproduction systems. IMO, most sound systems including so called high end systems frankly aren't up to it. Subwoofers can help if they are of very high quality and used with a great deal of skill and intelligence. Again, this is the rare case. Properly integrating a separate subwoofer with the rest of a sound system presents many difficulties for the experienced listener and requires a great deal of experimentation. Personally, I don't consider any loudspeaker product which does not make a serious attempt to reproduce the lowest tones to be high end no matter what other claims they make or virtues they have. The exceptions are full range electrostatic and magnetoplanar speakers where limited bass is inherent in their principle and the buyer knows going in what additional problems he is faced with.

[RGA]

"The exceptions are full range electrostatic and magnetoplanar speakers where limited bass is inherent in their principle and the buyer knows going in what additional problems he is faced with."

Interesting and people buying standmounts with the HUGE HUGE advantage they offer over ANY and ALL floorstanders don't get credit for being buyers who know what they're going into and "what additional problems he is faced with[?]"

[FLZapped]

The generally accepted meaning today of this specification for a loudspeaker system is the frequency at which the speaker's acousitcal output in the bass is reduced by 3db (half the power output) at low frequencies relative to a 1 khz (midrange) frequency given the same level of electrical power input.

A few use -10dB in some of their literature, so it is important to read it carefully!

Subwoofers can help if they are of very high quality and used with a great deal of skill and intelligence. Again, this is the rare case.

The majority of subs(especially HT types) I have seen all have large peaks around 80-100Hz. Few actually attempt to extend the bass range into the lowest octaves, instead looking to maximize those "thump" fequencies found in most modern music. In my opinion, this actually aggravates the ability to achieve proper room placement.

-Bruce

[skeptic]

There are however, some very fine dedicated subwoofers such as the best models made by Velodyne using accelerometers in a feedback loop. Loudspeaker of any type whether called subwoofers or not that can accurately reproduce the lowest octave at reasonably high volume with low distortion are few and far between and usually very expensive. But they do exist.

The problem with integrating them with "satellite speakers" is in the transition range. In a well designed sound system, the low frequency unit makes a reasonably seamless match in both phase and frequency response. However when one subwoofer in one location is used with two satellites several feet away, they often created very irregular phase and frequency response that is exaggerated with peaks and troughs all over the place. The best way to use subwoofers IMO, it to buy two of them and locate each one as close to a satellite as possible. This in effect is what you get if you buy a full range tower system such as JBL S412p or recently available AR1.

The test of deep bass are organ pedal notes. Digital recordings on cd work best. On a real pipe organ, those notes are very deep, pure, and are felt. There are very few loudspeakers in my experience which can duplicate those tones accurately.

I think it is outrageous that a manufacturer sells you a pair of supposedly high fidelity loudspeakers for $1500, $2000, $2500 or even more and then tells you if you want to hear the bottom octave, go out and buy my subwoofer for another $1000 or more. That stinks.

One of the most frustrating things about deep bass is not only speaker placement but listener placement as well. Moving the speaker several inches can make a big difference in what you hear. So can moving to another spot in the same room.

[vivisimonvi]

One of the most frustrating things about deep bass is not only speaker placement but listener placement as well. Moving the speaker several inches can make a big difference in what you hear. So can moving to another spot in the same room.

I couldn't agree more. The most frustrating part is that the best spots for deep bass are in the places you never seem to want to stand (or sit) in. I've tried just about every possible spot for my sub to satisfy my ONLY listening position (front and center of course).

[RGA]

There are however, some very fine dedicated subwoofers such as the best models made by Velodyne using accelerometers in a feedback loop. Loudspeaker of any type whether called subwoofers or not that can accurately reproduce the lowest octave at reasonably high volume with low distortion are few and far between and usually very expensive. But they do exist.

The problem with integrating them with "satellite speakers" is in the transition range. In a well designed sound system, the low frequency unit makes a reasonably seamless match in both phase and frequency response. However when one subwoofer in one location is used with two satellites several feet away, they often created very irregular phase and frequency response that is exaggerated with peaks and troughs all over the place. The best way to use subwoofers IMO, it to buy two of them and locate each one as close to a satellite as possible. This in effect is what you get if you buy a full range tower system such as JBL S412p or recently available AR1.

The test of deep bass are organ pedal notes. Digital recordings on cd work best. On a real pipe organ, those notes are very deep, pure, and are felt. There are very few loudspeakers in my experience which can duplicate those tones accurately.

I think it is outrageous that a manufacturer sells you a pair of supposedly high fidelity loudspeakers for $1500, $2000, $2500 or even more and then tells you if you want to hear the bottom octave, go out and buy my subwoofer for another $1000 or more. That stinks.

One of the most frustrating things about deep bass is not only speaker placement but listener placement as well. Moving the speaker several inches can make a big difference in what you hear. So can moving to another spot in the same room.

I don't disagree because I too believe that you need two subwoofers. I often hear people tout subs as non-directional bass which may be but why do I always know where the sub is? And that was after parametric EQ set-up with SPL and test discs. It just does not sound quite right - can be good mind you for home theater because I don't have a reference for what a tanker truck is supposed to sound like when it explodes. An organ is another matter.

If you look at the Gershwin X1 and SW 1 this is a but the top half add the bottom later http://www.gershmanacoustics.com/sw1.html

And I agree bass costs lots of money. And unfortunately Skeptic we're all not as deep pocketed as you are. We are forced to make a concession - and that concession has to bass. You can add bass later - you can't fix the midrange so we can buy some $400.00 JBL or Cerwin Vega that has bass but it sounds like a complete mess everywhere else.

And my complaint about one sub aside you can buy one and then get the proper stereo balance back later again with another identical subwoofer. In my set-up I could have two subwoofers sit between my stanmounts almost right under them - or have them in a corner right behind the standmounts.

You can complain about the pricing but we have to compare apples to apples of what is out there. I personally think the entire industry is grossly overpriced. My dad worked as a purchasing agent for a sheet metal manufacturer and also sold to car companies. They also sold a lot of the parts to GM specifically. Sheet metal is still relatively cheap - there is no more than 30 hours of total labour on ANY production Toyota no Tercel or their 60k model. What you pay for is their expertise and machinary to put it together. I can go get the parts and it might take 5 years fro me to build it because i would have to take some mechanics courses. Speakers and all other products are in the same boat.

Thanks to a very few companies like Audio Note who you can buy a kit from and save yourself 50-80% -- which you may still say is high - but B&W doesn't even offer the option.

[Woochifer]

I don't disagree because I too believe that you need two subwoofers. I often hear people tout subs as non-directional bass which may be but why do I always know where the sub is? And that was after parametric EQ set-up with SPL and test discs. It just does not sound quite right - can be good mind you for home theater because I don't have a reference for what a tanker truck is supposed to sound like when it explodes. An organ is another matter.

I don't think that applies in all cases. Typically, the recommendation to go with two subwoofers is when you got a large room that needs more bass reinforcement; but, in general larger rooms pose less significant acoustical challenges in the low frequencies, so depending on the sub, a single subwoofer in a large room might sound even better than in a smaller room and its inherent acoustical problems.

Perhaps you know where the sub is located because you got your eyes open. A friend of mine once claimed he could pick out the location of somebody's subwoofer, and he kept pointing to the subwoofer's spot even though in that session the subwoofer wasn't even switched turned on. Oh, what an ego bruising that was when he found out later on.

When you mention that a subwoofer setup still does not sound right "after parametric EQ setup with SPL (meter? SPL just means sound pressure level) and test discs" do you know what the crossover setup was and whether the bypass, delay timing, and phase settings were done correctly? And was this a two-channel setup that used the subwoofer's crossover in concert with either the speaker output or the premain outputs, or was it a multichannel setup where the processor/receiver handled the bass management? And unless you actually did the parametric EQ setup yourself, how do you know it was all done correctly to begin with? (unless you're using a RTA, correctly setting up the parametric filters with a SPL meter and test discs will take you at least an hour)

In a small-to-medium sized room, all of those factors have to be done correctly if you want the bass to be truly nondirectional. My own experience is that using subwoofer with a parametric EQ, SPL meter, and test discs can produce well integrated bass that's deeper and more linear than you can possibly get by just placing a set of standmounts somewhere in the room. Even with my receiver's relatively high crossover frequency of 90 Hz, the location of my subwoofer only occasionally gives itself away.

If you're trying two subwoofers in a small to medium sized room, good luck trying to correct for the room-induced problems. As much time as it takes to use a parametric EQ with one sub, there's much more trial and error with two subs.