The biggest "LIES" the movies ever told me.

[kexodusc]

Read up on the "Battle of Britain" in 1940, and its significance. Most historians consider this the beginning of the end, two years before the US mounted significant offence.
I'm not downplaying our role...just don't for one minute believe that Hitler hadn't spread himself too thin before we got involved.

On the other hand, we aren't given enough credit for our role in the Pacific.

[skeptic]

As I recall from about 10,000 programs about the Battle of Britain (more guys died in movies about World War II than died in the actual war itself) it seems to me that Hitler tried to break Britain by bombing it with V1 buzz bombs (early crude cruise missiles) and V2 rockets. These were crude terror weapons which could not be accurately targeted. They just blew up buildings at random. The British people showed their mettle by surviving this attack and demonstrating their will to fight on. What this has to do with the actual military progress of the war or how it could even conceivably be called a turning point is beyond me. Please explain what this had to do with Britain actually winning the military battles which eventually defeated Hitler. I'm sure you'd agree that Britain could not have pulled off the D-Day invasion without America. They hardly had much of an air force until America showed up. They were not only not winning the Battle of the Atlantic, but their lifeline was the shipping from America which kept them alive at all. Then how would they have defeated the Germans? We bailed them out just as we did in World War I and in the Cold War. At least they stood by us in Iraq. Well at least Tony Blair did. I don't think most of the rest of them were happy about it.

[kexodusc]

Those 10,000 programs are pretty vague recollections at best, then. Battle of Britain was Hitler's first defeat. It crippled his air force, and resulted in numerous counter-attacks on Germany from the U.K. It was hardly civilians surving bombs.
Granted, Britain probably wouldn't have won a full fledged invasion of Germany without the rest of the world's help, especially ours, but that comes down to the definition of victory then.

Skeptic, why are you so pissed off at France? Since our intelligence, military, and leaders have basically admitted incompetence and started the blame game with the whole Iraq thing, wouldn't that justify France sitting out? Seems to me if anything, we owe them an apology for not trusting their clearly superior intelligence and threat assessments.

[skeptic]

"Seems to me if anything, we owe them an apology for not trusting their clearly superior intelligence and threat assessments."

What the hell are you talking about kexodusc? Their intelligence believed the same thing ours did. They didn't want to go to war with Saddam Hussein because they were making a tens of billions off of the graft and illegal deals they were making around the UN trade restrictions. The bribes went all the way up to Chirac's inner circle of cronies. Furthermore, they will do anything to challenge the US because their inferior civilization has waned to the point of near insignificance. They still have dreams of the way it was a couple of hundred years ago. I lived in France. I know France. France is no friend of the United States.

As for Britain winning the war aginst Germany you must be joking? It took the American submarine fleet a couple of years after we entered in the Battle of the Atlantic to kill off enough U-boats just to keep the supply lines going. Montgommery was bailed out by American troops again and again and again. On his own he probably would have been killed or captured sooner or later. Even with the vast American Air Force combining with The RAF to pound Germany day and night, losses of aircraft were immense. Had the RAF had to go it alone against German air defences, they would have been completely anhillated. At one point, it got so bad that the life expectancy of an RAF pilot in active combat was 11 days. They were running out of pilots even faster than they were running out of planes. No they could not have defeated Hitler on the ground or in the air themselves in continental Europe and were it not for the American navy and merchant marine, the U boats would have strangled them. Without America's help they could not win and Germany could not lose.

[kexodusc]

"Seems to me if anything, we owe them an apology for not trusting their cleaAl Samoud 2 rly superior intelligence and threat assessments."

What the hell are you talking about kexodusc? Their intelligence believed the same thing ours did. They didn't want to go to war with Saddam Hussein because they were making a tens of billions off of the graft and illegal deals they were making around the UN trade restrictions. .

10's of billions? WTF? Making numbers up now? Why stop there?
France's intelligence only confirmed the existance of those "Al Samoud 2" missiles and other NON-WMD type weaponry...yes, in violation of the UN restrictions on Iraq...but definitely not bio or nuclear weoponry that was capable of reaching America or even France.

The bribes went all the way up to Chirac's inner circle of cronies. Furthermore, they will do anything to challenge the US because their inferior civilization has waned to the point of near insignificance. They still have dreams of the way it was a couple of hundred years ago. I lived in France. I know France. France is no friend of the United States..

You won't get an argument from me on any of these points. But to put things into perspective, I lived in France, too. Most of the French don't hate America, far from it. Most could give a rats ass either way. The politicians...well that's another matter. But even you can't deny that the US is far from squeaky clean when it comes to bribes and the UN or that there were financial considerations in the decision to go to war. We can't be hypocritical here. We insult and make life miserable for them as much as they do us. France isn't so different from us in this regard.

As for Britain winning the war aginst Germany you must be joking?

This I never said, or suggested...shame on you for suggesting otherwise...are you looking for a Flame War or something? Slow down. This discussion began because too many movies make it seem like the USA single-handedly won WWII...U-571 for example...The fact is, most scholars and historians are in agreement that Hitler would have lost one way or another without our direct involvement with troops and weaponry. I stand by this claim. I won't speculate as to how the war would have ended, or how many years or decades it would have taken. Hitler took it on the chin in going to Britain and Russia too soon though, suffered pretty bad losses, and was not going to rule the world or even all of Europe at this point...It would have been impossible for Hitler to win no matter how many u-boats he had. Sure, Germany was a fortress that was hard to penetrate...and definitely, Britain never would have marched into Hitler's back yard without America. I never said they could.

Without America's help they could not win and Germany could not lose.

At best this is impossible to prove, at worst, it is just wrong.

[skeptic]

I remind you or inform you in case you didn't know, it was the French that built the nuclear reactor Israel bombed and if Israel hadn't bombed it, by 1991 Iraq would surely have had nuclear weapons.

Even if France didn't have 5 million arabs living within its borders whom it has to cater to politically in some degree, it always has been anti American and anti Israeli. That goes back as Far as DeGaulle who BTW also tried to break up Canada when he stood in front of the crowd in Quebec and shouted the famous phrase "Viva Quebec Libre." You don't have to be a logician to put all of the pieces together including the very words of Chirac himself to come to the conclusion that France will oppose the US at every opportunity just for the sake of being a pain in the rear. That alone was why going to the UN Security Council was a total waste of time. Russia and to some degree China are the same.

As for losing the war to Germany, I don't care what kind of spin overly generous historians sympathetic to Britain put on it. It was an isolated group of islands with not much in the way of resources up against a vast continental power with hundreds of millions of slaves producing for them. Had America remained truely neutral Britain's resources would have dwindled to nothing. And most important, like the French, they weren't very smart or they never would have gotten into the second world war in the first place. They sowed the seeds of that war and nurtured them themselves. They have noone else to blame for it. ( I thought you said you wrote a PHD thesis on this, what happened?)

[kexodusc]

PHD thesis? WTF? Where'd you pull that out of? France trying to divide and conquer Canada. I guess that makes sense.

Alright Skeptic, you win, I was wrong. The UK would be nothing if not for us and the world would be speaking German. I withdraw any earlier claims to the contrary.

[skeptic]

America bailed Europe out three times in the twentieth centruy. The last time took almost fifty years, cost trillions of dollars of American taxpayer money and at one point nearly resulted in the end of all life on earth. (That was the Cuban missile crisis in 1962.) And what is the gratitude they show for it? They treat us like $hiT. Our grandparents would be turning over in their graves if they knew what kind of crap they dish out to us and what we take from them. Frankly, the next time, I say let them go to hell. And judging from the pending collapse in their economies, their aging populations and demographic time bombs, and the large number of legal and illegal immigrants they are getting whom they desparately need but hate, it won't be long.

[woodman]

Moore has appeared regularly on television lately and said many times publicly with no appologies that he would like to see George Bush defeated in the upcoming election and hopes that this film contributes to that defeat. (Personally I'm not sure who I'm voting for but I don't like people trying to manipulate me this way.)

Crikeys, skep ... I thought that you had more of a brain than most of the monkeys that populate boards such as these. At least most of what you post conveys that impression. Don't know who you're gonna vote for? C'mon get real here. So Moore has said publicly that he wants to dethrone the Chimp and made this movie to help that scenario to come to fruition. God bless him. I for one applaud his honesty in the matter. He makes no bones about the fact that he considers Dubya a buffoon who is sitting in the WhiteHouse illegally through manipulation and deception and has absolutely no credentials of any sort that would make him eligible to be president. Additionally, he's dishonest, unscrupulous, conniving, greedy, deceitful, manipulative, and stoooopid besides! He's single-handedly taken this country of ours 37 GIANT steps backwards, and his defeat is IMO, the most important political event of my lifetime. I haven't seen Moore's latest film, but as ismaVA pointed out, there's an offer on the table to anyone who can offer any proof that anything presented in the film is not true. So, to call it a pack of lies is one humongous stretch, IMO.

It is amazing how few Republicans now would dream of repealing Social Security or Medicare (although they might like to tinker with them) when just a few decades ago, they denounced them as Socialism.

From where I sit, I think that most Republicans would like very much to do away with both of those programs, although they wouldn't say so publicly. That's reason enough in my book to vote against all of them every chance I get. The fact that they have the support of the "Christian Right" is to my mind the joke of the century - only I'm not laughing.

[skeptic]

I don't need you to teach me to hate Republicans. That came from just watching the evening news night after night as trash like Newt Gingrich, Dick Army, and Henry Hyde tried to destroy President Clinton without caring that they were destroying America with him. Ted Kennedy who should have spent his life in jail instead of the Senate notwithstanding, it took me a lot longer to learn to hate Democrats with the same degree of contempt. If nothing else, Clinton betrayed his supporters and the country with exactly the same brand of stupidity as Gary Hart betrayed his supporters. And that spineless fool who said he invented the internet promised at the Democratic convention he would fight for me and all the other Americans. Hell, he couldn't fight for a 5 year old little boy who floated up on a log in Florida. Gore stood idly by while he was sent back to the slave prison called Cuba without so much as a hearing before a family court. He couldn't fight for himself when the Republicans stole the election right out from under him. I WILL NOT read the history of this era the way CNN, FOX or MSNBC wants me to interpret it. I see these self serving little men for what they are and they all disgust me. All birds of a feather. It's a wonder the terrorists haven't destroyed our country already. These midgets have no guts, no mettle, and no sense of history. I'm not voting for anybody. There isn't a one in the lot qualified for the job this time. Dubya too although sad to say it, he is the best of a sorry lot. At least he didn't try to destroy Israel the way Clinton did. Well not after I and a lot of other people wrote to him two years ago to tell him to "cool it."

[IsmaVA]

There is a lot of fanatism in this post . . .

A couple of books that I think everybody should read:

The Grand Chessboard by Zbigniew Brzezinski a very interesting pre-9/11 (about 3 years before) book in which the "roadmap" to the U.S. world supremacy is explained.

The War on Freedom by Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed, not really a book, but a compilation of documents about the stream of info leading up to the 9/11 attacks.

A quote from Jonathan Swift: "It is useless to attempt to reason a person out of something they were never reasoned into."

[skeptic]

Which politician did I mischaracterize?

[Troy]

What Woodman said.

I'm utterly fascinated with how F911 polarizes EVERYONE. I saw it last week and it was one of the saddest films I have ever seen.

For a few months I've been thainking about, and F911 confirmed, that once the soldiers start coming home disillusioned, THAT will be the downfall of this war. Just like VietNam. Expect the draft to be started up within months if W gets re-elected.

Personally, I think (just as Moore does) all politicians are scumbags that are only in it for the $. Moore's films have always been about the fact that people that run our country and our country's industry (oh, same thing, sorry) only care about the money, not about their constituents.

Was Moore over the top with his editing to pull heartstrings? Absolutely. He's always done it. But the footage of the woman selling "rabbits for food or pets" in Roger and Me was funny (uncomfortable, but funny) and footage of us slaughtering Iraqi civillians in F911 is decidedly NOT funny. A lot of what he compiled was inappropriate, but if you can't show proof that Moore was wrong about all that $ coming from the Saudis to the Bush corporate coffers or that W froze like a deer in headlights for 7 minutes on 9/11 in a Florida grade school reading class, then it's hard to buy people that constantly say "It's all a pack of lies", because the fact is, no one has proved that it is. Yeah, someone call me when that 10k for finding factual errors gets paid out.

I think that the people that run our government ARE playing us like violins, manipulating us with fear and vague threats while they take billions from the Saudis to fight the Saudi war for the promise of cheap oil under the thin veil of WMD threats and bogus connections of Iraq to Al-Queda. If you choose to think that this is untrue, they you are just being a Pollyanna. As a public, we don't care. We'd rather argue about stupid things like gay mariage and watch football. We ARE the Romans and that sucks. Yeah, F911 was extremely disheartening and depressing, but I think everybody should see it.

[skeptic]

If there was credible evidence that the policies of the United States as formulated in the White House were in some way influenced by a foreign government or prominent foreign citizens for money, you can be sure that there would be a deafening outcry among Democrats for a special prosecutor to look into it to see if another impeachment trial is warranted. We had a tremendous row over foreign influence from China in the Clinton administration and as I recall, someone was prosecuted. If lying about sex in a sworn deposition rises to the level of impeachment, foreign influence peddling certainly would as well. (If every man who lied about sex in a courtroom was tried and convicted of perjury, half the male population of America would be in jail.) Given that so far there has been no investigation and no talk of an investigation, I have to assume that Moore's movie is all a pile of crap based on speculation, wishful thinking, and nothing else. Since he answers to nobody, why should he be taken seriously?

[Bryan]

Back on topic:

Independence Day: That a guy with an Apple laptop is able to take down an alien civilization with a computer virus. Forget trying to decipher the other alien software programs.

[dean_martin]

If there was credible evidence that the policies of the United States as formulated in the White House were in some way influenced by a foreign government or prominent foreign citizens for money, you can be sure that there would be a deafening outcry among Democrats for a special prosecutor to look into it to see if another impeachment trial is warranted. We had a tremendous row over foreign influence from China in the Clinton administration and as I recall, someone was prosecuted. If lying about sex in a sworn deposition rises to the level of impeachment, foreign influence peddling certainly would as well. (If every man who lied about sex in a courtroom was tried and convicted of perjury, half the male population of America would be in jail.) Given that so far there has been no investigation and no talk of an investigation, I have to assume that Moore's movie is all a pile of crap based on speculation, wishful thinking, and nothing else. Since he answers to nobody, why should he be taken seriously?

no investigation = Moore's movie is a pile of crap? I'm sorry but shortly after 9-11 a former teacher and friend of mine showed me many newspaper articles documenting the ties between the Bush and bin Laden families. I remember one from 1997 that reported a meeting between the Bushes and bin Ladens in Texas planning a pipeline through Afghanistan. The ties are there. The only issue is the extent of influence. The problem as I see it is that we've elected politicians who do more for corporations than individuals. It IS all about the money - get as much as we can now, spend as much as we can now, consume as much as we can now with no regard for the future - it's the "I'm gonna get mine in the here and now" attitude fostered by corporate lobbyists that's currently driving this country along with petty jealousies over someone like Michael Moore making tons of money and garnering fame without having to get his by the sweat of his brow. Even more indicative of the petty jealousies is the constant attack on our civil justice system by a Republican Congress at the urging of insurance companies. A doctor may amputate the wrong leg or both breasts because of a misread radiology report but the real victim's damages for pain, suffering, emotional harm, etc. should be taken out of the jury's hands (you and your neighbors) and capped by politicians??!!! That deserves a big WTF! All of a sudden the doctor becomes the victim because his insurance premiums are going up? Please! The doctor and his/her insurance company are the haves and the amputee is the have not. Who's voice is louder? It's all about the money. Back on point - 14 of 19 from Saudi Arabia? What have we done about that? Who would suffer from a Saudi shakedown?

And, how the hell are we going to get out of Iraq? If I believe the in-depth news reports as opposed to the conclusory reports, turning over control to the Iraqis ain't gonna make a damn bit of difference. Bombings are being orchestrated by foreigners using Iraq as the testing ground for world-wide Jihad. It's not just Saddam sympathists/supporters any more. I'm from a small town. 4 men from my church and numerous others from my community are in Iraq now. My questions about our policies and decisions are in their interests yet some (mostly Republicans) would question my patriotism. Hopefully many will wake up by election day. I feel better about the Kerry ticket with Edwards on it. I haven't seen Moore's movie, yet. I enjoyed Roger and Me and the Big One, but had mixed feelings about Bowling.

BTW, skeptic, if that's really your name, how can you compare a Republican Congress/maniacal special prosecutor going after Clinton to the present climate? We know the impeachment effort was just plain stupid and vindictive (although it made good tv.)

[datarush]

Gladiator is a great movie to watch and has some interesting historical details. The premise is totally wrong, however, in that Commodus only lasted 8-9 months as emperor. He was around for 12 years before they got rid of him. It'd be like having Clinton around for another term! It's weird that for all the 7-800 years of Roman history they can't come up with another story. Gladiator is a rehash of the old Fall of the Roman Empire movie, which had its own set of inaccuracies.

[Crunchyriff]

Truly, if the USA hadn't entered WWII, the entire European continent would be eating sauerkraut, speaking German, and shouting "Zieg Hiel!" to this very day.

[Crunchyriff]

Personally, I think (just as Moore does) all politicians are scumbags that are only in it for the $. Moore's films have always been about the fact that people that run our country and our country's industry (oh, same thing, sorry) only care about the money, not about their constituents.

Don't kid yourself. Moore's a shill, and he's a bigger part of the problem than the politicians themselves. BTW, you don't think Moore is making movies just to make a buck? Moore is in fact a politician himself, he just hides behind the moniker "film maker".

The biggest joke about his new "documentary" movie is the uttter fabrications and severe twistings that he passes off as "facts"; and when recently confronted by a news agency about them, he said this: " yeah, I made most of that up. SO WHAT?"

What a gem.

As far as GW's alleged "freezing" for 7 minutes- I think he displayed proper composure in that setting. What on earth was dropping everything, running off and scaring a bunch of kids in the process going to accomplish? Both towers were already doomed.

The same people who complain about the alleged " GW freeezing at school" are the same ones who didn't have a problem with Clinton continuing his golf game when interrupted with serious news on the green; nor do they have a problem that Clinton lied his fanny off to save his bacon. At least the American Bar Association had enough courage and character to revoke his license to practice law.....

What I really wish is that all those leftist whackos (Streisand, Sheen, etc) that promised to leave the US if GW got elected, would have really meant what they said. We, as a nation, would be much better off without those of their ilk.

"now back to our regularly scheduled topic."